Chat_125 - Distributed Hosting in Bloom with Hzrd

[00:00:00] Speaker A: That's a really cool aspect of the bitcoin community. And the Nostra community, as things are right now is most of our users are not your typical, what you consider like dumb TikTok users. Most of them are like borderline developers. And when people start bring up the typical conversation of like, we need slicker apps that have easier user interfaces and don't make me think kind of stuff, we don't have those users. We have a user base that is like exponentially more curious than any other user base out there. Like as long as the app does something and isn't broken, like if you throw it onto the bitcoin community, they will figure out how to use it. [00:00:58] Speaker B: What is up guys? Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible. We have got a great, great interview today and this one was also one that I was just like really interested in what Hazard is building and just about the idea of Blossom. And also I just wanted to kind of go down the rabbit hole of Noster and peer to peer stuff and even Pub Key and Pear Drive. This just ended up being a really great conversation. It was funny. Hazard and I actually talked about Hazard by the way, is building Blossom which if you have not bumped into this yet, this is basically how do you make hosting and sharing and distributing files really, really easy on Nostr. Nostr has had this problem in like, okay, well where is the file? And our relay is just going to store all of this. How do we treat this? And Blossom is a really elegant and simple solution. I feel like to, to basically being a first step into getting a pretty robust network for something like this. And as soon as I heard about it, I really wanted to do a deep dive and I hadn't done one yet, so I was using this conversation as a springboard. But it just, it was a really great conversation. We, it was a really fun like we just kind of went down a bunch of different rabbit holes. And then also it was funny, we actually stayed, we talked for a whole nother hour after the show because there were just so many threads to keep going down and we were both talking about our prospective projects. So this is literally just all about decentralization. Nostr, peer to peer files hosting. How do you solve the storage and distribution problem with the guy who is building Blossom? A quick shout out to Synonym and the BitKit wallet for supporting the show. This is just a really, really great wallet. It is a non custodial bitcoin and lightning wallet has a super intuitive way of separating out the wallets and making it so that you don't really have to think about it. You're just moving stuff between spending and savings. There are very few wallets that do that right and BitKit has done a fantastic job. And of course Blockstream has also just released the Jade plus which is a really. Well, not only is the Jade actually a great hardware wallet and I have a couple of them and I've also given a couple away for people who I have onboarded, but they have the all new and improved Jade plus which literally it should be here to like probably tomorrow. I'm super stoked about mine. You'll see videos about it if you use my affiliate link down in the description. It's actually a great way to help out the show if you're grabbing your Jade plus and and I have an affiliate link down in the Show Notes which is actually a huge help for the show if you use my link when you grab your Jade because you're a good bitcoiner and you listen to Guy and you have a solid hardware wallet just like Guy says you should. So go adventure, explore your new mobile wallet and your new hardware wallet. There's some really great stuff to unpack with those links will be right there in the show notes. And now let's get into today's chat. This one is with hazard149 bitcoin audible chat125 distributed hosting in Bloom with Blossom Hazard. Welcome. Welcome to the show, man. As I literally just said this, I have yet to do my deep dive into Blossom but with the, with Pear Drive and the stuff we've been working on, I have been completely enthralled and I have this long list of things for Nostra related stuff, file hosting related stuff and any and all peer to peer stuff to basically dig into and I don't have any time for it. And this is why I am having you on because I want to start my deep dive into this and I would like an introduction that saves me a few hours with a fun conversation with you because you happen to know something about Blossom and Nostr and lots of those things. So welcome to the show, dude. [00:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I honestly never thought I would be on, on the show. It's a little bit surreal. No, that's, that's actually perfect that you mentioned that because for a while now, like six months or ever since I found it, I've been, I've been interested in trying to figure out how to learn more about like the hole punch and like specifically the data storage on that side. Like I've had a Little bit of time to look into it. But I've never, I've never really understood it that well. [00:05:42] Speaker B: It's confusing. It's confusing. So like digging into it just, just for kind of a frame of reference for what we've been building with Peer Drive is one of the big issues far and away has been an understanding the stack because they have built, they've literally built their own stack of things to make it work. And if you don't understand how those things relate to each other, then you're like trying to wrap your head around hypercore, hyperswarm, Hyper B, Autobase, hyperdrive, All these different things and how each one of those relates, it's really confusing. It's one of those things when you open up Photoshop for the first time or something, you're like, what the hell is all of this stuff? You know, and, but like the whole idea of Pair Drive is we're trying to make something that's, that just makes hosting or finding, like connecting your devices and getting your files online just like dumb simple. And Pair Drive, it's not really Pair Drive Core, like we're having a hard time with like what to name it, but there's also just like a module called PEAR Drive, which is what we're starting with. And it's trying to make it so that you don't have to know any of that crap. It's like, okay, if you just do make Pear Drive, it starts your hyperdrives, it starts a swarm, it connects everybody to the swarm, it confirms that everybody's connected, that everybody's on the same page and synced up and you know, it runs like a whole bunch of stuff and that's it. And all you need is the make Pair Drive, you know, like, like you just need like literally like three commands and you don't have to understand how any of that works. So that's been the goal and it's been a long road to get there. But a huge part of this also is nostr, because NOSTR is such a strong, has such a strong network effect, I feel like. And it's also just such a generic technology for like profile IDs and stuff. And so like when as you and other people have been posting and talking about Blossom, it's got me thinking, well, you know, Pear Drive is not a front facing, it's not a web facing thing. It's just like your own little private peer to peer network, right? But how could you also, I mean just from my own kind of a greedy perspective is how could I Use this, you know, to. To add a new layer to Pear Drive or. Or marry something together so that, like. Okay, well, you could also host this on the web with Blue Blossom and use the Nostra relays, but that's with a very, very naive idea of how it works and, of course, what it is. So maybe I hand that over to you and. Actually, we're going a little too deep too quick. Why don't you give me a bit of a background? And what got you interested in Noster and. And also Bitcoin. Did you find one or the other first? Like, how's. What's your perspective on the space? What's your short story? [00:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah, let me see if I can get it short, because it's always. It's always difficult to remember. I think I was bitcoin class of 2020. I had known about it, you know. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Like a little bit then. All right. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's. I've been around long enough to where the price doesn't excite me or change my opinion too much. [00:09:10] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good place to be. It's a good place to be. [00:09:13] Speaker A: It's a weird feeling. It's definitely weird now. Yeah. So I think, like everyone else, I'd found it way back in the day. It was the same kind of. I think. I think I stumbled across it back when the price was 1200 or something. Read the white paper, read the summary. I think I was. I forget how old I was at the time. I didn't. I didn't have a credit card at the time, but I remember reading it and just being like, yep, this is the future. But then I stupidly told myself to. I was going to mine some before I actually bought some. That never happened. [00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's tough. [00:09:46] Speaker A: Then I went off, like, learned programming, and then eventually, yeah, class, like, 2020 rolled around and. Well, actually, I wasn't trying to learn Bitcoin after I learned programming, because I kind of came off the 2017 hype train and I was like, well, let me figure out how this cryptocurrency stuff works. These awesome smart contracts and programmable money, and let me go look at Ethereum. That looks like the future. And so, yeah, I think I spent a good three or four months. [00:10:17] Speaker B: That's the process, man. [00:10:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I spent three or four months. I was like, well, let me look up YouTube videos. How does Ethereum work? Everything was about proof of stake and proof of work, stuff like that. And I was like, how does this thing actually work? And then I kept just kind of scouring the Internet looking for anything on, like, how does this Ethereum thing actually work? Like, how do I program money? And I found all these websites. So like, oh, here's the documentation, how you program solidity and smart contracts. And then you, you can sign up for a free account and then deploy your smart contract on our platform. I was like, no, no, no, no. I want to run this on my computer so I can break it. I don't want to break it on your platform, so. [00:10:59] Speaker B: And I don't want to run your package, your SDK. [00:11:04] Speaker A: That takes. No, no. And so, and so I never, I never was able to find anybody who is able to like, explain how Ethereum worked. I was never able to find any documentation on how to run it myself. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Holy crap. [00:11:18] Speaker A: And so I never actually got a smart contract running. And so I was like, I think I gave up my. Gave up at one point. I was like, well, you know what? If I can't learn this, at least I'll go back to the old outdated cryptocurrency that is bitcoin and I'll figure that one out first and then I'll get back to Ethereum. [00:11:33] Speaker B: There you go. [00:11:34] Speaker A: So, yeah, that led me down the rabbit hole of like, I think it was BTC sessions on YouTube and I think it was your podcast too, because I was like, you guys were the only people I could find who actually explained bitcoin. I was like, I need to know how these transactions work. Like, what is a transaction, how does it sign, what is a block, Stuff like that. And yeah, I got hooked on that. And then that quickly led to bitcoin and then lightning, I think at the time. Yeah. Then bitcoin's price went up. Started learning about, like getting serious about it. I forget, I forget the rest of the bitcoin journey from there. It was basically just like a two year rabbit hole of learning economics and all that stuff. [00:12:19] Speaker B: It's just face first at that point and then, and then, you know, two years go by and you're like, wait, where am I? [00:12:27] Speaker A: It was crazy. Yeah, see, so that was, that was starting bitcoin Nostr. Ah, yeah. Getting it a nostr. I cannot remember the year because this is also still kind of in that stage where it's like a blur. But I had found nostr. Let's see, it was December when it took off. I want to say December 2023 when it took off, when Jack gave out the grant. [00:12:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:00] Speaker A: But I had found it earlier that year in like April or something. [00:13:06] Speaker B: I remember I did Something somebody told me about Nostr and it was something that was you was it. There was something like Juggernaut or something. There was some sort of like client that was like, it almost looked like an IRC chat. [00:13:23] Speaker A: It was like a telegram client. I want to say it was called amnesia. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Amnesia. [00:13:29] Speaker A: No, it was something. It's something was something like that. It was. Oh no, there was Astral Ninja and. [00:13:35] Speaker B: There was Astral Ninja. Okay, I do remember that one. There was brand still around, isn't it? [00:13:41] Speaker A: It is, it is. [00:13:42] Speaker B: I'm checking. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Might freeze your web browsers when you visit it. Yeah. So I, I'd found it back when there was like five or ten nips in the repo. And I remember reading over it, I remember looking at it and having the exact same reaction I had with Bitcoin. Like, I. I literally read over a weekend, I was like, this is going to be the future. This will work. And then I just kind of. I don't know why I forgot about it. And then, you know, when, when the, when it got really popular and everyone, Jack started bringing attention to it. That's why I went back and I was like, okay, let me actually figure out how this works. Let me test it out. Yeah, after that it was. It's been like full time. No STR ever since. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Nice, nice. Yeah. Astral Ninja. Their certificate is expired, so I had to do Seed to Danger. But no, it's still up and running. It asked me to sign in with Al, actually. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Oh, I didn't. I forgot I had extension support. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Dude, I love the extension stuff, man. That's. That's been like a huge game changer just in like, how. Because again, like key management is far and away. I think the, the biggest like, frustration of mine with NA right now. And I was just talking about this with John Carvalho, like yesterday. Yeah, yesterday. Holy. It's been a long day. And we were talking about like how to solve the key problem or think about the key problem from a kind of normy perspective. And that's a hard freaking problem. [00:15:11] Speaker A: I have a controversial, maybe a controversial opinion on that and I think I. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Want to hear it right now. [00:15:17] Speaker A: We don't need to solve it. We don't need to solve it from a technical sense. Because if I've learned anything from Nostra development, it's that you can solve a lot with social using a social solution that is almost impossible to solve from a technical perspective. And that was actually one of the key things I realized when kind of starting Blossom was that. Well, I guess When I explain it, you'll see the reason is a lot simpler than systems or protocols that came before. It is because half of the solution is a social one and not even in the technical specs or not even part of the tech. [00:16:02] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:16:03] Speaker A: And I think the same applies to key rotation or loss of keys. The traditional, what we think of as the key derivation in Bitcoin or in pgp and the key revocation and all that, that's a technical implementation of what can be framed as a social problem. [00:16:24] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:16:25] Speaker A: And maybe I have no proof of this, but I suspect that maybe it can be solved with a social solution. Much more that can be like solved with a technical solution. Is that being vague, I would say. [00:16:43] Speaker B: In trying to narrow down the vagueness a little bit, or from my perspective, I would say it's kind of half and half. Like, I agree there is a. And maybe this is what you mean by social solution is there's a degree of like, people have to be familiar with it and they have to understand like, what a key is in the same way that they're like, you just don't punch your credit card into everything. You know, I get. And at some point that just becomes natural. You don't have to fix credit card numbers in order to like, what you need is familiarity with the tools. But I would also say that just because, like, I am very familiar with the tools, but I feel really uncomfortable copy and pasting my key into every client that I'm trying and then increasingly the risk as it becomes more valuable. What I would love is, and this is one of the thing that interests me about hole punch, even though there's like a bunch of drawbacks about the whole stack and how it works is that every single device and every single client or whatever that you plug into just generates its own key and then they abstract away a identity on top of that by just basically having a master key that just signs publicly. Well, I mean, in the noster sense, this is what it would be, but obviously it doesn't really work like this. It's not like somebody's like checking a bulletin board and saying like, is this yours? But you essentially just sign that says this key is mine. And then everybody just, your. Your devices just aggregate all of those keys into one so you don't actually have to generate. You're not constantly moving keys. And importantly is it allows for a setup even though hole punch isn't quite like this. But that philosophy of keys essentially allows you to have an offline key. Like I could have like my Cold card queue or whatever that does like a bunch of like generic signature stuff. Now with dip 85 and all that stuff, I could, I could literally just have it where I could just sign stuff offline to activate a device. Kind of like a two factor thing or whatever when I'm signing in almost from a user experience standpoint. And then the network or the tools or the clients or whatever, just recognize that I have signed for this one, this one is also me. And then if I have a device compromised, I can just sign that says ignore this because, because I lost it or somebody stoles it from me. So that level of abstraction, and what's funny is that that doesn't actually have to change much. You would literally just need a, a layer on top of it. Like you wouldn't have to undo everything underneath it. You know, like you would just have to have a key hierarchy or something. It's just like, okay, well if a key signs for another key, then this is also you. [00:19:37] Speaker A: That is an interesting. Yeah, that's, that's been a lot of the discussions around it. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Simpler the better, in my opinion. [00:19:44] Speaker A: You know, that's the thing that I think that's my controversial opinion. That's what I think Nostra got right is we didn't have a key hierarchy because as soon as you introduce, if you introduce a key hierarchy or delegation, it does let you rotate child keys, but you introduce another bootstrapping problem where you have to bootstrap those keys. And not only bootstrap them, you have to maintain history somewhere. And it's not an unsolvable problem because as you, as you mentioned, there's a lot of, there's a lot of protocols that have done this kind of. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Well, I'm curious, what do you mean you have to maintain a history. Well, of your past keys. [00:20:28] Speaker A: You mean of your past keys, at least one or two of them. Just so that, just so that old data is not lost or thrown away. It doesn't, you don't have to keep all the keys or all the history, but there's some interest in keeping. And normally this is not an issue. Like if you rotate keys, let's say you rotate keys every once a year. That's not a big thing. But the problem with, well, it opens another attack vector, which is what if I'm rotating keys every second? That's a form of spam. And then you have back to the universal problem of how do you solve spam? Which is a different topic. But yeah, no, I think, but that's my, one of my, that's my controversial opinion with Nostrs that not that we don't need key rotation in any way, but that by not having it, we basically lowered the bar even further for getting started. There's no, maybe not for users because users still need to learn what a private key is and how to secure it, but for developers, the fact that I write an application and I don't have to bootstrap the key hierarchy building with it. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's, that's a thousand percent correct. Yeah, I totally agree with that. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:49] Speaker B: But that's been like the big thing with Hole Punch. I think that has, like why the upstart is so difficult. And that's also why we're hoping Pear Drive will actually be like a big thing. Because if you don't have to know how to build with it and you can just be like, make Pear Drive and then here's my to do app and it connects peer to peer and you know, the other side just connect paradrive. You know, like, if, if that's all you have to think about, then that might actually help that. But right now, the uptake on like trying to understand what all these tools are like, that's been. The big thing is I've literally just been training Hope, or excuse me, paying Hope for her to train herself on how to do all of this for this whole like, period, basically. And that's why we've had to kind of like go back to 03 times because we find out we just built it wrong or that's not going to work at the end of this, you know, and like, oh, this is the way we should have built it. Let's start over. [00:22:42] Speaker A: But anyway, that's another thing. I've been thinking about Nostra like non stop for two years now. So all of my thoughts are around it. But that's another thing I think that Nostra got right is that it's not about simple. You said, you said that's all you have to think about. Like if you just run Make Pair Drive, that's all you have to think about. And I don't think that's what makes a successful application. It's not making the user think less. [00:23:13] Speaker B: Don't shit on my idea. [00:23:17] Speaker A: It's not about making the user think less, it's about giving the user less to think about, which are two entirely separate things. Because if there's less to think about, the user can understand it quicker or the developer can understand it much faster and then be done and get to the implementation stage. But if they have to think less. Then that does still work. But it means they're kind of pulling in something they don't understand, like a black box. And just they're relying on trust. They. They don't get that kind of confidence boost that you do when you're bootstrapping something where you read it in a weekend. You understand it all and you're like, okay, I get it now I'm gonna start building. Whereas this is not so much the case with like pair. The pair SDK. But there's a lot of, a lot of like web. You'll see this in a lot of like web3sdks where they won't do any. They won't explain it at all how it works. They won't say whether it connects to a server, peer to peer, anything like that. They just say, trust us, use our SDK and start building. And it works. But it's really boring. [00:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get that. My perspective on that is more from the user side is for people who do just want to do. I am in love with the idea of single purpose apps. I love things that just do one thing and just do it well. And I've increasingly moved my setup and my workflows and stuff toward that to the point that I've been building a lot of my own with LLMs. Like, I've been, I've been building, but I've been iterating and brute forcing an app out of chat GPTs and. But in that same sense, we also, we also do recognize that we want developers to understand how to use the tool or how the tool works, I guess. And we are being, especially since like a lot of hole punch documentation is like outdated because they change stuff so damn quickly is we're trying to be insanely vigilant and insanely thorough about documentation. And it's not that complicated in hindsight in the sense that like, if you're, if you just have like a set of things that just say, this is literally what this is doing. It makes more sense. But ahead of it, if you just look at the tools and then ask how to put together, you're like, you know, this is confusing as, oh, you know, this is. This is like bonkers. There's so many different moving pieces here. But you know, kind of like you get one of those crazy Lego sets that have like custom little LEGO things and you just, if you just looked at all the pieces, you're like, what the hell is this? But then after it's a Millennium Falcon, you're like, oh, well, obviously this is what, this is where this went. [00:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a lot like that, what you mentioned with like documentation. Documentation is very important in that sense because. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:26:24] Speaker A: So I'm just going down the list of like so many random thoughts, but that's another thing I've slowly come to realize and am coming to believe in the Bitcoin and like Nostra space is. You said, like, it's important for, for developers to understand the apps you build or the, the things you write. And that's a really cool aspect of the bitcoin community. And the Nostra community, as things are right now, is most of our users are not your typical, what you consider like dumb TikTok users. Most of them are like borderline developers. [00:26:59] Speaker B: Which is very technical crowd. Yeah, yeah. [00:27:03] Speaker A: Well, even, even like people like yourself, like, you might not have a background in coding, but like your, your curiosity is driving you to understand as much as you can about anything you, you start working with. And when people have the start bring up the typical conversation of like, we need slicker apps that have easier user interfaces and don't make me think kind of stuff. I think they're right in some sense. [00:27:28] Speaker B: I think you need both. [00:27:30] Speaker A: We need both. But we're in such an interesting situation in Bitcoin right now where we don't have those users. We have a user base that is exponentially more curious than any other user base out there. As long as the app does something and isn't broken, if you throw it onto the Bitcoin community, they will figure out how to use it. Yeah, I mean, it's probably not going to always, always be that way, but it's very, very interesting. It's an opportunity. [00:27:58] Speaker B: I, I kind of think you need both versions. Like, like, that's kind of how I think about. And in my extensive experience building and developing apps, which is, this is my first foray into this is I want to have an advanced version and a user version. Like, I want to have something where if somebody's interested, they can do the deep dive and they can explore a lot of things. I mean, granted, you know, in a lot of ways that's part of just what the module is, is you could just use this and LLMs these days can spin up a GUI so fast it's ridiculous. But, but at the same time, I also just like the option of somebody like basically turning on a, like, I want to play version as opposed to I want to use it version, you know, like, I want to explore version. And so I don't know that that is something we've been thinking about because I. I guess it's. I consider my part, myself part of that crowd. It's just. It just likes to explore shit on the Internet and computers and stuff. [00:29:07] Speaker A: That. That's what I'm excited. Well, I guess that's the thing I want to see people talk about more or people who are building bitcoin stuff is like, don't assume that your user's not curious. I mean, if you look at most iPhone users, the traditional web that exists now, like all the iPhone apps, it's probably not that much of a stretch to say that the majority of users aren't curious. They just don't want to think. But as I said before, like, that's not the bitcoin crowd. Like almost every bitcoin user you get, they just have a massive curiosity, something you won't find in any other. Any other, like, field or industry or anything like that. And yeah, just don't assume that the user doesn't want to learn because chances are, at least in the bitcoin space, that they really, really want to know what's going on. [00:30:00] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I don't want to derail. Let's. Let's make sure we go. Come back to this thread before I. I tangent off here, but there's actually a element here that I think is actually tied to bitcoin itself in the sense that I know people who have gotten into bitcoin and then suddenly that curiosity has exploded again, like their desire to explore and learn things that had basically been suppressed before. And I don't want to say like, oh, bitcoin, Bitcoin makes. Brings your curiosity back. I think it's more of just like learning something that's so fundamentally different from the worldview that most people are in, is that when you have your perspective shift so much and you have to learn, you have to understand bitcoin at least from some new direction. Like, like you, you. You have to break out of the Overton window that you're used to, and then suddenly you can begin to see and understand a piece of bitcoin. And then there's that, you know, first or second aha moment where you're like, oh, this is very different from what I thought it was. And I think there is such a learned helplessness in kind of normie land for just do what the authority tells you. Just listen to these experts and just do whatever the hell they say. [00:31:30] Speaker A: Just do what the app tells you. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Just do what the app tells you. They're literally. They. They literally think that it's like a. There's this degree of, like, negativity in thinking for yourself and like, having an opinion outside of whatever. Whatever the political wind tells you to. To think or say at any one point in time. And there's this kind of, like, nihilism that, like, I don't want to. I'm. I'm afraid to learn things. I'm afraid to explore things because I'm not going to get a hundred on my. I'm not. I'm not going to get all the points and I'm not going to get the gold star from the authority if I do that. And when you finally break out of that, I think it just kind of reinvigorates something about you. Like this kind of like, inner kid who's like, oh, I can just kind of explore and learn whatever the hell I want. And the teacher isn't going to call me out anymore to do that, you know, Like, I'm not in that. I'm not in that stupid prison anymore. Like, this is. This is the world and there are things to discover, and this is something that I can learn. And it's fun. Oh, my God, it was fun. I forgot that it was fun. It was shitty for so long to. To read a book or to quote, unquote, learn something. And I think that actually changes people's perspective on it, at least in my small world of people that I've talked to it. It seems to literally make them think differently about learning new things and going out on their own to find something. And almost like, you know, a bit of an antidote to nihilism is break out of your worldview and learn something new. And then suddenly everything is, like, new again, you know? [00:33:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that. That checks out with my experience. The people I've talked to is that is maybe like this. I mean, this wasn't the case for me, but it. Like I said from the people I've talked to, like, it's bitcoin, maybe was their first thing, or maybe it was the first thing in a long time for them that they. They taught themselves and enjoyed learning. And it kind of like reminds people that, like, if you're not forced to learn something and you do it, like, from your own curiosity, that it's extremely rewarding. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. God, it really is. It really is. Like, it's become like my super nerd thing. But I just, like, love to learn stuff anyway. This probably perfect time to actually just get right into blossom. So now that you're kind of now, down the Noster rabbit hole, your, your Bitcoin journey is, you know, you're, you've set up camp in the rabbit hole. Now what, what led you to the hosting side of things and what is it about Blossom? Because, because you mentioned just a minute ago the idea that it's simple and you don't want do too much so that people don't have to think about it. Tell me about Blossom. Tell me about the kind of the idea behind it and how people expect to interact with it or how you, you expect people to interact with it. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Okay, let's see how to start. It's not very complicated, but it's, it's the freight have to set the framing. At its core, its goal is to solve two things. The first is a lot like Nostr relays for like Nostr applications, which is like bring your own database in a way. Okay, so when you log into a Noster relay, sorry, log into a Noster client, a lot of the clients will ask you which relays do you want to connect to? And even the more advanced ones will automatically detect your client or detect your relays and start using the ones you already have configured. And that effectively means that a lot of the Nostra clients don't need databases. They're just, they, they store, you know, your social posts, your likes, and especially with like the Nip 1661, like cashew wallets, they're like, store your, your cashew wallet state on the relays and any other state they need on the relays. So it effectively makes it like the user brings their own database to the, to the client. And that was kind of the first goal with Blossom was traditionally when you upload media, like images, small videos, zip files, PDFs, like HTML, JavaScript file, I mean, go down the list and anything you can think of like that you need to distribute. You usually go to something like Google Drive or Dropbox or OneDrive. I don't know. There's a whole bunch of hosting solutions and you go, crap, yeah, you go log in, you upload your file and you're like, hey guys, look, if you want to get the zip file, it's all zipped up and download it from over here. But you're usually like, go put it somewhere on the Internet. And what Blossom is kind of will solve and is starting to solve is the concept of the user bringing their own storage server. So when you log into the app, you can either set the Blossom servers that you want to use, or they're already configured on your account. And the Client can detect that. And then when you upload, let's say you want to upload a zip file, something small, you want to distribute some sort of non text binary data. The client doesn't need like a central. You don't need to go upload it somewhere else and link it. It's just, it can see that here's my publicly available storage servers. If you. And just upload it here, you can sign. You know, it's. It uses a. I should say it uses the Nostra identity, so npubs and whatnot as identities. Just because the identity layer is important and we probably can get into that later. But the whole thing doesn't work unless you have identities. Yeah, then it can, it can kind of upload media to the user servers, which again, I think I haven't actually. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Checked, I haven't looked through it. But the start 9, I have a noster client or node on my start 9 and whenever I load something into Primal Adamas or whatever, it will automatically back it up. So this would basically be from the client side is that I would plug it in kind of like a relay and I would say, here's my Blossom server. And then rather than uploading it to directly to the relay, it. The relay has a link to my BLM server and just putting it into the client puts it on my BLM server. [00:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's essentially the first goal. [00:38:31] Speaker B: That's pretty slick. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Notice there's nothing about distribution in that model. Yeah, so that doesn't solve distribution because distribution is entirely separate than the user storing or uploading their data. [00:38:47] Speaker B: And by distribution do you mean just like how many versions of it are there out there? Or like something like that. [00:38:54] Speaker A: So distribution I define as a problem of like, I can put the Bitcoin white paper on my computer here, but the distribution is how do I get it to your computer? [00:39:05] Speaker B: Okay, okay. [00:39:06] Speaker A: There's many ways. There's many, many ways of doing it. But yeah, or I can have as many backups as I want. And it doesn't necessarily mean I've solved the distribution like making it easier to distribute. That's one of the things that Blossom helps with. But the second goal I would say with Blossom would be to my motivation with building it was to see what was the minimum, you might say the minimum viable product. What was the smallest, simplest content addressable system we could build. [00:39:45] Speaker B: Okay, yeah. [00:39:47] Speaker A: If you know what a content addressable system is, it's essentially that the data in the system is addressed by its content. So in the simplest form, this looks like the BitTorrent network is a content addressable system where every torrent, every file or folder that's shared across the BitTorrent network has what's called a torrent hash or an info hash, and that's how you address it. That's how you talk about that data. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:16] Speaker A: And if you only have the info hash, you can generally go, and there's enough people seeding it, you can generally go find that content you're looking for. Yeah, and there's a lot of other systems that exist like this where there are content addressable systems. But that's, that's the goal is so you don't have, you don't have names, you don't have, you might say pointers, you don't have anything. It's when you want the content, you talk about it by. Well, you want the data, you talk about it like basically by the hash of its content. And that has a lot of implications for like, censorship, resistance and distribution and a whole bunch of other stuff. [00:40:53] Speaker B: But yeah, for sure. Because if the, if the, the proof of the information is this is the way that you find it, you know, like, then basically its location can change. I mean, that's, you know, the beauty of a bunch of seeders OR Whatever in BitTorrent is that it doesn't matter who has it. If they have the right one with the right hash, you know, the, the BitTorrent blob or whatnot, you can get it from them too, you know. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And the, the cool thing is that it reintroduces the con where it makes caching a lot more efficient. [00:41:27] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:27] Speaker A: But that's not the goal. It's just a nice side effect because, you know, it's like if, if you. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Have a great side effect to have, that's a great side effect to have because caching is a pain in the butt. And everything taking three seconds is like terrible for the typical user. And that's not even for like, oh, they need to be technical. Like, I hate. I just can't. I'm so impatient with computers. I'll open up 1900 fucking applications and tabs. And if that last thing, the 1900 and first thing that I'm opening up takes like six seconds, I'm like, what is wrong with this stupid computer? It sucks. I need more ram. [00:42:07] Speaker A: You just need to download a little bit more ram. [00:42:09] Speaker B: That's exactly right. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So that was my main motivation for kind of like writing up the spec and thinking through all this was like, what does it look like to have the simplest Possible implementation of a content addressable. I hesitate to even call it a network because there's nothing in the Blossom like spec and there's nothing implemented right now that's even peer to peer. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Like there's no communication or protocol really. Yeah. Okay. [00:42:42] Speaker A: It's a lot like Nostra relays in that sense where they never talk. Well yeah, they just don't talk to each other. Yeah but in theory they could. In practice it's not, it's not, it's not really important. [00:42:56] Speaker B: So what does that look like right now? Like so do you have to when you're hosting like a Blossom server, is that something that I would just do on like AWS or Linux a node or something like that? I just have a hosting service that I spin up Blossom and then as long as the client supports it I put that address in and then just run. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Basically yeah, it's a, for like practical purposes for users. This is like kind of similar to Nostra where it's like bring your own database, this is like bring your own media, your own file distribution server. It is effectively a maybe simpler, maybe just more browser friendly like re implementation of like the FTP protocol. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:43:51] Speaker A: On one end. So it's at its core, it's basically. Well there's two parts to it. There's the core part where like it's all about like retrieving the file and then there's the second part of like how do you put data onto the servers? And yeah, to put data on the servers is really basically just have a binary blob sign for it, upload it and it's on the server. It's, I forgot to mention, Sorry, it's and then the retrieving part which is very important, which I forgot to mention is that because it's a content addressable system, the files don't have any names. They are always addressed by the SHA 256/ass of the file itself. So to calculate basically every server you have the domain and then if you want the data, you want the file, you do/sha256/ and then you do like an HTTP get request to that server on that asking for that hash, basically that universal identifier for the file and then if it has it, it can return it. [00:44:57] Speaker B: Okay, so this is actually really interesting. So right now paradrive not to I, I have to reference this because I, I, I want to play with the what's super useful in both of these and this is something that I and Hope have had like a bit of an issue with and also something that I very much wanted to have in the plan of just I want the hash to be the, the way to find the file. Because right now each. Even though like we do have like actual separate hybrid drives on all the different devices and pair drive then is an abstraction on top of them is everything's still actually done by location. So right now you can have a conflict where I have a file that says, you know, gif folder reaction memes laughy face and then somebody else has that in their same thing and it's the exact same GIF folder reaction memes laughing face dot gif. You know, like we have the exact same thing but it's not the same. GIF is there will actually be a conflict because it thinks, it thinks it's the same thing. I'm not even sure exactly how it behaves right now. I think it probably just ignores it and you don't know which one you're getting depending on who you're downloading it from. Um, but which that could be bad technically but I mean obviously these are private networks. It's not like right now it's not a big public thing where it's like billions of people are going to be putting in and you're going to have attack vectors. But regardless, I want the hash to be like. So we can have a million things that say laffy face gif and it doesn't matter because you're looking at them from the hash because you know, as soon as we do start talking about these things being really large with lots of people in them, you, you can't. Obviously conflicts like that are ridiculous. You couldn't possibly manage it like that. So I guess my question is how the hell did you do that? Like what, what was. What's the interworkings for? How to pull that off so that you can actually find things via their hash. And like what do you have to do with. On the kind of file system side to. To make that work? [00:47:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I have a really dumb answer for that. I just didn't solve it. All I solved was the way to find files. Way to talk about files. So just the content addressable network and that that you might say like that human interface to like a folder structure or the human interface that is a file name. [00:47:36] Speaker B: So that's just kind of an abstraction on that attaches to the hash that. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Can be built on a separate layer. [00:47:43] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:47:43] Speaker A: So that doesn't need to be at the base layer. That doesn't need to be part of the actual data storage and Distribution network that can be. And that actually I kind of realized this after the fact. But that is a perfect use case for what NOSTR is. Because the NOSTR is a social metadata layer and file names and folder structures and whatnot are just metadata. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I guess that. [00:48:14] Speaker A: So it operates a lot like if you know how like AWS, like S3 buckets and like object Storage works where under the hood the objects, there is no folder structure under the hood. The objects are addressed by usually their internal identifier, but in this case, in the case of Blosim, there it's by the hash and then the folder structure, which actually is what is exposed to the user in the application is like a metadata layer. Usually the service like AWS provides both of them kind of wrapped up into one thing, but. But there are two separate layers. So like the, the data storage is. It's just kind of addressable blobs of data. And then the metadata layer is usually what you can interact with or, or work with. And I guess to give an example of how I see this working with or how it is working with Blosim is there's a lot of different types of metadata layers you can plug into. So one of them is on Nostr, there's Nipa 94, which is called File Metadata Events, where you publish an event and it just describes a file. So it describes like what's the type of the file, the name, the description, the alt tag, a thumbnail, stuff like that. So it's kind of like you can share files to your social network and that no STR event doesn't actually have the file in it. It's just a piece of metadata that describes the file. And so using blim, you can upload the file to a BLIM server and then you can create this metadata event that describes the file you just uploaded. Gives it like a human readable name, give of human readable descriptions, includes the hash, includes the URL to where you can find it or multiple URLs and then basically advertises it to everyone else where they can, how they can download that file. And so what you end up with is the data distribution layer, you might say, or the servers or the programs or whatever handles the data distribution. The data storage doesn't have to think about the metadata. It's the social layer that handles the metadata. So like your key, your relays, your little like your nostra events. And the, the. The data distribution layer is only concerned with storing and serving that file. [00:50:51] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:50:52] Speaker A: Another case where I've been using it is there's this cool project that I've been kind of shepherding or working on, but I didn't, I didn't start. It was this thing called like nsight where it's exactly kind of what you. [00:51:09] Speaker B: Described where that sounds familiar. [00:51:11] Speaker A: I don't know what it'd be familiar. I've built a few servers with it or a few servers that enable it. And it's a way of hosting static websites underneath a public A noster pub key. So, okay, it works. Right now I've been. Yeah, like my, my development version of my Nostr client is basically hosted entirely on it. But it's the same concept where the data storage and the data distribution is handled by Blosim or basically Blosom protocol and the metadata of what that, that folder structure looks like. So you know how a traditional static website is. It's, it's a folder full of files, HTML, JavaScript, CSS, stuff like that, HTML. [00:51:55] Speaker B: Index, HTML or whatever. And there's a bunch of crap. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that folder structure is stored on nostr as just NOSTR events. So what, what you'll do is you'll sign this no event that has two fields. One of them is the path. So where's, where, like where is this file? It's that/index HTML or it's at/aboutindex HTML. And then the next one is that SHA256 hash of the file, that identifier and then get. And if you sign enough of those Nostra events, you basically build a folder, a metadata layer, like a folder structure of identifiers. And then if you want to fetch the website, you just, you, you, you go out to the Blossom network, you go look at where, where this user has hosted their data, where they say they're putting it, and you just go download those identifiers and then you have the website. But it's a, it's a really good example of how, I think how separating the, the data storage and distribution layer from the metadata layer enables like a lot more interesting, a lot of like really, really weird implementations and stuff. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Do you need to, do you need to sign and hash the entire hierarchy of folders and stuff? Or could you just sign the entire blob every time you updated it? Or is that. [00:53:24] Speaker A: Well, by, by signing its hash in the Nostra event, you're effectively signing the entire blob. So you're kind of. [00:53:33] Speaker B: Oh, I guess you are. It just makes a tree. [00:53:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:36] Speaker B: Anyway, okay, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. [00:53:40] Speaker A: That's the Cool part about the mapping too is like there is no like folder hierarchy. It's just like what a path is, is literally a. A string identifier that just happens to have slashes that we call folders. But yeah, you're just kind of giving. You're giving a. You're creating a. [00:53:56] Speaker B: It's all. It's all make believe. Everything in computers is. Make believe is. [00:53:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Just fake shit. That's hilarious. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So I forget what your initial question was, but like that's. [00:54:08] Speaker B: I don't even remember. [00:54:10] Speaker A: That's one thing that I, I kind of discovered after the fact. That was a really, a really cool side effect of splitting these things out and making them simpler was that there I didn't have to solve everything. Yeah, it just kind of, it became obvious like what the next step was. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Now if, if this is in some ways said like FTP, could I actually host this on like a home machine or do I need to port forward still just like a normal. [00:54:46] Speaker A: It depends what you're using it for. But in as it stands right now, like if you're. Like I said, if you, if you want to have the distribution side of things, then yeah, you need some sort of way for the Internet to access your machine because you can use it as just like a local backup. But you know, it's just a backup is entirely different than a, than like a distribution server. So that's a cool aspect. I'm sure like you've seen this with like the pair stuff too. And this is like I said, any type of content addressable system enables this. As I mentioned earlier, like the caching is. It opens up so many doors for caching and backups and just moving data around. Like let's say you have a one terabyte drive stuck on your like Start nine. You have this little Blossom server that just. You upload all your media to it or maybe it just automatically downloads everything it's seen you post. [00:55:45] Speaker B: I would love that. This is kind of my dream. This is a lot of what I'm targeting with anything that I want to work with or anything I want to build with. As part of why Paradrive is trying to have Noster IDs and that sort of thing integrated. [00:55:58] Speaker A: That's the cool part about it is. [00:55:59] Speaker B: That like you can saving all that shit like just. [00:56:03] Speaker A: That's. That's the awesome part about cryptographic identifiers. And what Noster is kind of bootstrapping is it makes backups useful again. Yeah, because for example, like you, you can back up your Twitter data. You can back up your Twitter posts, the images you post on there, but it's completely useless. [00:56:24] Speaker B: I was about to say sort of. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Besides, I mean, sort of they have the. What is it like where you request to download all your data? Yeah, stuff like that. Or you scrape it, I don't know, you can't read. [00:56:33] Speaker B: It doesn't save the shit that you retweet really. Like so like it just has like a link to the Twitter. Because I want to save everything that I like and repost. Because that's literally like Twitter would be a gold mine. [00:56:50] Speaker A: Oh, it is a gold mine database. [00:56:52] Speaker B: I mean they just don't have access to it. They just the only ones who get to mine it. And you're the one who puts the gold in there. But like literally if I could just look through everything I've ever liked, retweeted, commented on, and it literally took the entire string of stuff. It downloaded the post, it downloaded the picture they had or the video. And like I had that database on my machine, I would. There are so many things lost to the kind of history of the web. Just like it just gets black holed or not enough people hosted it or shared it or something. So you just can't find that shit anymore that I would be able to just find on my machine. And I have so many extra just arbitrary terabytes because every, every Christmas I asked for like three freaking hard drives. Because why not? And I, I can, I can have all of that stuff. I can host it for other people. I can have backups for my brother. Like I, every. There's no reason for any of that. I would love my perfect world is give me your key and I'll save you a backup of all this stuff. And then everything that you do online. Everything that I do online that I want saved without thinking about it, without, with one extra click or one extra. Just look at all the things over here. It all, it all gets saved. It all gets saved and I can find it later because holy. That is a bane of my existence. Not being able to find stuff or not be able to get stuff from one device to another with all the devices that I own that are within feet of each other at all times. And I just like, how is this so hard? Like we have. [00:58:26] Speaker A: It's the Internet. [00:58:27] Speaker B: The Internet, man. [00:58:29] Speaker A: It's. It's the, the lack of, the lack of cryptographic identifiers. Because small tangent. The best way I've solved that solution for myself is just to train myself, never try to find stuff again. So I have my browser history clear. As soon as I close any browser, if I don't save it, it's gone. And that has forced me to be really good about saving stuff. [00:58:54] Speaker B: That's actually an interesting strategy. I love this. Leave myself no alternative, like so that I know I won't get it back unless I do it this specific way and then do it that specific way every single time. That's interesting. That's actually a really smart strategy from. [00:59:18] Speaker A: It makes your note taking app pretty messy, but sure, yeah, it hurts for the first few weeks. [00:59:24] Speaker B: Oh, that's new and different. My note taking app is so organized right now. Be terrible. [00:59:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. I don't know why I decided to do it. I think it was the same frustration. My history stopped. Like I couldn't find stuff. So I was like, there's actually a great Android web browser called Firefox Focus that does exactly that. Like it clears all the cookies and just clear resets every time you close it. [00:59:49] Speaker B: Wow, that's cool. [00:59:51] Speaker A: I like that it's a little painful when you lose stuff, but that's how you learn lessons. But yeah, back to the, like the cryptographic identifiers, that's what is going to be so awesome with NOSTR and content, addressable networks or stuff like that is that I should say backups. But really it's like local data. It makes local data useful again because to go back to like the Twitter example, it would be very, very useful if you could download that gold mine that you created on Twitter, but only so far in that you could use it yourself because like, I mean, you could share it with me, you could share it with somebody else who wants all those stuff and you could share it around, but like the data is only as valuable as what it contains. The cool part about NOSTR and the fact that there's cryptographic keys and identifiers and stuff like that is the data becomes more valuable because not only is it valuable for like what you have, but it's also valuable immediately for everybody else because now you can re upload it and it's verifiable. It's not like you can never re upload your stuff to Twitter. Well, first off, you don't. They make sure you don't have to. [01:01:06] Speaker B: But you can rebroadcast to relays, same message, same timestamp, everything. [01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's what gives NOSTR the censorship resistance properties that it has is not that you can't be taken down, but that as long as you have a backup somewhere, you can basically Move or effectively rebroadcast your data anywhere. And it sounds so obvious. In hindsight, it sounds so obvious. But what it enables is. Well, it sounds obvious from the hosting perspective, like of course I'll just move my data to a new server. But like that's not what it is. What it is is that you've now can move your data anywhere you want. You can put it on your local computer, you can put it on your network backup, you can put it on a thumb drive and you can hand it to somebody and it's still verifiable, it's still the same data. You can put it, dump it into like a massive database with like an LLM and it's the same data. And it's, there's no distinction made anymore of like, is the data on a server or is it not? Which is going to be, it's going to be pretty, it's going to be very, very fascinating to see what, what that unlocks. Like. [01:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's wild because the key, the key in the hash are what identify the data. So just where it is is agnostic. You know, we've, we've lived with an Internet in this era where the place that it is is the data. [01:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:37] Speaker B: You know, like whether or not it's in the plaque, it's even the identity, it's. It's you. Your network only exists on Twitter, your network only exists on Facebook. Your information on Facebook is only retrievable on Facebook. Like they are inseparable from each other. Is the host has just taken command and control of everything that goes to it. And this essentially allows the complete separation of that at the, at the basest level, the most foundational level of it, that the key, the signature is the verification and the hash is the data. It's how you find it, it's where it is and it doesn't matter. And any, at every host and platform and client or whatever can shut you down as long as you post it in a new place and the user connects to that same one to look for it there. Well then they can still verify that it is all the exact same stuff in all the exact same ways that it was delivered last time from the exact same person. And it doesn't, where it is is completely agnostic. It doesn't, it can't care about it. It's just looking for the, the, the two things that matter, the signature and the hash. [01:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the exciting part because so on those first layer like that lets you re upload. So in the case of Blossom. Like the goal is that like if a Blossom server bans you and I don't know why but you're, you started posting bad stuff with your mpub and they don't like you anymore, then you just spin up a new server or you go to another guy who has another server that's publicly available and you just. Because you had a local backup, hopefully you just take all your, you take all your media or maybe one of your friends had a local backup and you just, you, you get all the data, all the pictures, all the cat pictures you've ever posted and you just re upload them. [01:04:25] Speaker B: So many cat pictures. So many cat pictures. [01:04:28] Speaker A: Well that was. Yeah, yeah. And then I forget the second point I was going to make but ah, it's gone. But the re uploading is just that alone. [01:04:39] Speaker B: I mean that, that's huge. That and also this is part of the thinking around paradrive which you know it'll be a big question as to whether or not it can work really well with nostr. Um, you know we haven't, we haven't gotten there. In fact I'm looking for a Noster dev to, to basically put into this to understand, to get it wrap their head around paradrive. I start thinking how they can work together. [01:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd be interested to see how, how you get that working if you can get it working together. Because from my understanding paradrive uses ECDSA keys. [01:05:11] Speaker B: It would not, it would be sp. They would be totally separate layers. Yes, totally separate layers. Like it would just be that whatever information got transferred like because I don't, I don't think there'd direct integration in that way. Our intent really is to use Noster for IDs for broadcasting any like a publicly available thing and then also for zaps so that we don't have to design something with lightning is just like let that handle it. But there will be a question of do you have to back up two different keys? Like you know, like how does, how does that work from like having a backup of your pair drive versus having a backup of your NOS drive ID and you know, that sort of stuff which we would love to be simplified and we think the way we'll do it right now is to. We're going to have like a separate idea in paradrive. There's going to be normal folders that you share out and just have like normal permissions and then there's going to be kind of like a secure blob drive. Like something that just is treated very, very differently. Very Very sensitively and privately. So it's just like this separate type that just has a completely different set of rules and treatments so that it's far less likely to be, you know, subject to a problem. And we might just store the nostr keys in there. So as long as you have your backup to your Pear drive, you can always just get it as long as on any device that you have. But that's just kind of like my naive thinking of how we'll use that right now. That obviously could change very easily. If I have a conversation about Blossom and, you know, ends up being a better solution or something, I have no fucking clue. But it's just how I'm thinking about it right now. But that idea of just being able to have a backup and retreat, I just, I think people like really discount, like when you have like that big of a shift at the base of how the network and the data, how you relate to it. It's really easy to fail to see the second, third and fourth order effects that occur or that are possible when you have people building from that assumption, from that as the core of how it works. And it's wild. When you look 10 years out, look at the consequences of building everything centralized from 20 years ago, is it like, okay, we'll just do all this all on a platform and we'll app, okay, well, 20 years later, where are we? You know, the, it's the butterfly effect, right? The, the initial conditions and relationships are everything and how it's going to play out 20 years down the line. And so if we're building this now with a foundation that looks on the surface, it kind of interacts the same. You're like, oh yeah, it's like, looks like Twitter. It's just Noster and Blossom and you know, Pear Drive and stuff. But when you look at the foundation, how it actually interacts with each other and like what Those attributes are, 20 years out, you're looking at a completely different Internet, you know. [01:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's almost impossible to, to imagine what, what's different, what changes. And I guess a lot of people have, myself included, like that kind of motivation where it's like, it's really hard to imagine. So you just kind of have to experiment and see, like, how is this different. And you keep finding like fundamental things that are different. But yeah, it changes the Internet entirely. I think there'll always be a global Internet just because people want to connect. But it will not be as important as it is nowadays where, like, for example, like CDN distribution And whatnot. Like Cloudflare. Like, everybody uses Cloudflare for two things. They, I mean, DDoS protection because that's one of their main products, but like, second is just like global distribution. And I don't think it's going to be that important in the future. I mean, if there's someone on the other side of the world who's interested in your content, there will be a way for them to get it, but it's not going to be the default. A lot of, a lot of times now where, like the, where everything is like default global, where there'll be a lot just because it doesn't make sense for a lot of stuff. Like a lot of. Like if I'm, if I'm in groups or if I'm with like, you know, hanging out in like Internet groups with my friends or family or anything like that. Like, if I'm posting cat pictures or messages or anything like that, like, there might be a mechanism for that data to get to the other side of the world, but it won't go there by default. It'll probably stay. It'll probably stay local. Maybe even so local that it's like literally in my house on some little server I run. Or maybe it'll just be like a local, like statewide server, who knows? But there's no question that like a lot of the stuff we post, the centralized nature of the Internet as is right now, like, there's a lot of like obvious inefficiencies with that. [01:10:20] Speaker B: If you want to save in better money and you want 20,000 sats for free, right now it's about 20 bucks at $100,000 of bitcoin check out fold. Every time I swipe this card, I get 0.5%, sometimes 1, sometimes even 1.5%. I can get 2, 3, 5, even 10% on gift cards with major merchants. Between the roundups, the gift cards, the auto stacking, the sats back on every single swipe, fold literally does all of the work for me. And it is denominated in bitcoin. And I have more savings just by using this card than like 90% of the United States normal consumer. I've got a referral link for you right here. Shout out to fold for sponsoring my work and honestly being the most important service for my being on a bitcoin standard. What's your thinking on monetization? Like, how are you. Like, this is something I think about a lot with paradrive because I want it all to be open source, easy for people to build on it and Build alternatives and you know, all that good stuff, but like trying to figure out how I'm, I've spent. I'm not a developer, so I'm hiring someone and I've spent a small fortune to try to make this a reality. And I assume that you are just building this kind of for yourself in your free time. How do you intend, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong about that, but how do you think that you might be able to make some capital, some sats back on producing this for people, you know, making this available? [01:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a really tricky question. [01:12:04] Speaker B: It is, I agree. [01:12:05] Speaker A: I'm very lucky in that I actually have a grant. Oh cool. A grant to work on all this stuff from Open sats. [01:12:13] Speaker B: So nice. Congrats. [01:12:14] Speaker A: That has really, really helped me with that. [01:12:16] Speaker B: I don't think that triggered. If I, if I saw it, I had forgotten already. So. Yeah, that's awesome. [01:12:22] Speaker A: Honestly, it's easy to say in like retrospect, but I think I would have built the same stuff as I am building now if I didn't have a grant. It's really helped me stay focused and, and just speed up the whole process because I can dedicate a lot more time to this. Yeah, I'm sorry, I forgot the second part of your question. It was important. [01:12:43] Speaker B: It was mostly just like monetization on the long term. [01:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah, monetization. I have no idea. Because the problem is there's definitely simple ways you can see how this will make money. I'm talking noster. In general, the concept of the shift to like users having like self sovereign identities and in general like kind of maybe not owning but controlling their own data. [01:13:14] Speaker B: Mm. [01:13:16] Speaker A: There's ways, like, there's obvious ways you can see how this could be monetized. I, I forget who said it, but someone said like as the Internet goes forward, like there's only, there's only like three. Two or three. No. Oh man, I'm messing it up. But basically one of the scarce things on the Internet was compute and bandwidth. [01:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:37] Speaker A: And storage was not one of the scarce things on the Internet. [01:13:40] Speaker B: The ultimate services are compute and bandwidth. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as you mentioned, like with just stacks and stacks of terabyte hard drives, like storage is really not, is not, is not a service. [01:13:50] Speaker B: It's utilizing it. Like that's the problem is how do you utilize it? How do you get bandwidth to it, you know? [01:13:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the, that's the scarce asset. You can see like services where it's like kind of a SaaS style service where you're selling that you're selling like, oh, we have the fastest bandwidth, we have the most availability, we will run the thing for you convenience services like that. But as far as like monetizing projects go, or just building and monetizing like it's really difficult. It's because to kind of like set the whole frame of like if you take Reddit for example, I don't exactly know their monetization model but they have some, they have some way of getting premium. They have some way that gives you more features, more, something more better and more access to their platform. And they have ways of users paying them for premium. But then what they also do is they sell that data they have on their platform to either themselves so they can do advertising or they sell it to other like ad partners and whatnot. So they're monetizing the users and they're monetizing the data. The difficult part that nostr and like key based identities flips on its head is that you can't sell data anymore because everybody has the data. So if I build a giant relay and I collect all the media posts, I can use it for myself. And there is some value in having that much data in one place again kind of back to the bandwidth problem and moving things around. But as far as the data goes itself, it's not really valuable. I can't, I can't sell it because everyone else has it. [01:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:39] Speaker A: And so that's something I've been, I mean the Blossom, the Blossom servers, I think there's a pretty simple solution for monetizing no stuff that type of distribution. But for Nostra in general and especially with like the Nostra app I've been working on, I still have no idea how it's, how monetization is going to work out because I keep getting stuck on the fundamental problem of, you know, oh, I could add subscriptions, I could add, I could add ads, I could add paid links, stuff like that. But it always comes back to the fundamental problem of like if someone is paying me, what am I selling? And I'm definitely not selling them data, I'm not selling them users data. I can't sell advertising because the advertisers can just get that data somehow. I can't sell development hours because that locks me into having to keep working on the project, which is a, it's a hard guarantee to make. [01:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:35] Speaker A: So yeah, the monetization model is to be determined. [01:16:40] Speaker B: I'll give you, I'll give you some, some things off the top of my Head that I'm thinking about with AirDrive in particular is one of the things about Pear Drive and trying to integrate with Nostr and how we're thinking about this is one is I don't want to shun a lot of people like get into peer to peer stuff. Sorry, if you can hear their drilling holes downstairs is a lot of people, especially when they get into peer to peer, they're like we're not going to have any servers. And I'm like, there's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong with servers like you. You want servers in the exact same way that you want like power seeders on a BitTorrent network. You don't want to try to make it so they can't do their job job. Like that's how networks naturally evolve. What you want is as great of optionality as possible for people to like with no barrier do it themselves or pay for somebody else to do it for them if they just don't want the headache. And so part of what we want to do inside a paradrive is which this is down the road but I mean maybe hopefully closer. Like if, if we can get Noster to work and Zaps to work, maybe, maybe it's easier than. I think that's knock on wood is basically have a marketplace with all the people that you're connected to in your social graph who will offer up. I will be a seed to your stuff. I will be a mirror essentially for you if you pay me thousand sats a month, you know, for whatever data or something and we'll formalize all that stuff. But so that's one way is that I'll just be like the first host in paradrive myself and allow people to, if they only have a mobile device and they don't have a desktop to basically have as their seed. Well hire me, you know, to do that for you. And so that's one way, one way. And in fact I want to ask you about this a little bit in just a second. Um, but depending on like the audience that you're targeting for hosting, especially from the context of like small business or something like that is self support service to a higher end market play like kind of the red hat game is it's free software and everybody can do it. But if you want to call in and get help because you're running your businesses depending on this free software than 50amonth or whatever it is for like we'll have somebody available to help you. And I mean it does change the nature of the business obviously, but there's actually a value in it for yourself in the sense that you're having a lot of direct hands on. Like this is how we're using it and this is how it's not serving us or where I'm having a problem that you can then as long as you have like a very nice web of communication between the people answering the phone and the people building the tool, your tool actually gets better, faster, I think in that environment. Then the other one, which I wanted to ask you were saying you're building a Nostr app. Is this like basically a full client kind of thing like Amethyst and Domus, like. Or Primal? [01:19:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been really. Since I've started. It was part of me getting into Dinosaur. That's a funny little story. But I've been building the no Strudel app, the green one. [01:20:11] Speaker B: Oh, oh, okay. Okay. No, how did I know that? Okay. [01:20:16] Speaker A: I don't really link. It doesn't have a lot of like links to my cell phone. It's just. Yeah, but that's kind of my like Noster sandbox play, like kind of playing around and. [01:20:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:27] Speaker A: Building stuff. It is. I think there's a bunch of other no straps that have Blossom integration, but it has. It has probably the most up to date Blossom integration. I don't know. It works with Blossom and a whole bunch of other stuff. So. [01:20:45] Speaker B: Well. Sweet. Okay. Well, in. In that vein, and this is something I was just kind of thinking about while you were talking about it is I've. Because it's attached to a similar idea that I've been thinking about is I really love the idea of zapvertizing. It's really clever and in the. In the sense that you're paying the user directly for their attention. And then when I like there's a. There's a website that I just saved that I think it cost me like 3000 sats to zap like a hundred people. And then I zap them each 100sats or 21sats or something like that, you know, with my little message. And so like the service. So I'm paying 10,000 sats to users and then I'm paying 3,000 sats to the service or whatever that is. Zapping it out to them is. I think that could fundamentally be a way to lower the distaste that people have with advertising. Because if I was getting sats in my wallet on an ongoing basis, every time I saw an app ad in my feed, or just somebody else being able to boost their Nostr Post like I would love. I mean, I mean sure it's an ad like I. This is clearly a promotional thing but I would love to be able to boost my show when I post it out like this episode. I would love to be able to be like you know what, let's put this in front of a thousand people who are active today on a lottery on Noster. Let me zap them with the episode title and be like check out Blossom. You, you guys are missing some and you know like and blast that out and pay everybody 21sats or 100sats or something and then pay your client or you or whatever, you know like 20 of that whatever it is as like the service for basically listening to those people on the relay and then sending it out to them in their feed when, when they see it. And then you can easily just toggle that on and off. Do you want to earn sats and have ads in your feed or do you not? Like I don't know. It's a thought. [01:23:01] Speaker A: The earn SATS is the critical part. [01:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's an onboarding tool. [01:23:07] Speaker A: It's an onboarding tool but like because I've. That's the way I've gone down thinking of like because as you mentioned as notion to clients get more profitable it becomes more and more viable to sell ad space and the user's earning sats and especially the user's choice and like turning it on and off. But more importantly the users earning sats is probably the best way you can ensure that you don't burn through users goodwill because that's the one 100, 100. [01:23:41] Speaker B: They gotta earn SATs. [01:23:42] Speaker A: Yeah because if I, if I insert ads in between like posts in the feed and the user's not collecting sats to see that or they're not getting. I'm selling my users out. I'm turning my users into a product and selling them and if I don't give them part of the cut then they will, I'll be, I'll be effectively burning through their goodwill. And I mean that is as like many other platforms have shown. Like you can burn through users goodwill as long as you can get more users than you're losing. But I don't know what that the ratio is. I don't know where the balancing part is for that. And so I haven't really bothered to build it. But no, something that makes me think of that is a really. That's another whole, that's another service and notion that really needs to be built is there's someone needs to just kind of off the top of my head, this, I guess this is how it would work. Like you plug into a really big relay, so you have to have access to the data because you need to know what users want, like what type of ads users want to see. And. And you basically provide an API that people could just. A client could hit and say, you know, this is the user. So you have the problem of like clients lying. Then. Ah, maybe just like, maybe even a DVM feed. I don't know, something where the client could hit and say, I have this user here and I would like to get some ads for them. And then maybe the user triggering the ad. So the user getting paid out would also trigger a payout for the nostr client. So the user would initiate. [01:25:27] Speaker B: And you could do it with ecash too, so that it's custodial until they withdraw. You know, and then you've got a real simple thing because it's just. You don't have to think about channels or hosting a node. [01:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:38] Speaker B: You know, like you literally just have. You just have it on the withdrawal side from. From the client. And it's just cash for the client. Yeah. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Because without, without any cash, it's way too much overhead. [01:25:50] Speaker B: And it makes sense for it to be credit until somebody's trying to get it anyway. Like, you don't have to think. They don't need to think about lightning or having a wallet or, you know, it's just like, like manager keys. And then if you want this in sats withdrawal, you know, like. [01:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah, but the critical part, I think, is that it would need, for the advertiser's sake, they would have to have some sort of guarantee that the payout would only happen when the user interacts. And I don't know if. So the interaction would have to be a signature on the user's way on the user side. That way the client can't be cheating the advertiser out of money. [01:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:29] Speaker A: And then the signature from the user side would in some way have to trigger a payout that would basically do a zap split, would simultaneously pay the user and the client. [01:26:40] Speaker B: Mm. [01:26:42] Speaker A: I think it's possible. I just don't know. [01:26:44] Speaker B: There would be a lot of implementation details. There'd be a lot of like, okay, here's. Here's a nuance, here's an edge case. You know, how do we. How do we solve that? And like, maybe you need like two tiers of users where one says, let the client, you know, report back what I'M looking at or something. Or like, like what I slowed. You know, something like that Twitter does or make this private and you know, this is how many sats you get in this instance. This is how sats you get here. You know what I mean? Like, like maybe it changes the split or something. I. I just don't think we should be afraid of advertising because, like, good advertising is actually useful. [01:27:25] Speaker A: Like, this is a really good idea. Yeah, the, the privacy is not a problem at all because if you're using credit, especially like ecash and Cashew, then you effectively get privacy for def. Like, credit is very, very easy to have. Not privacy from the advertiser, but privacy from the rest of the world. [01:27:44] Speaker B: Wait a second. That's right. You could just have it so that it's direct between you and the advertiser and the relay doesn't really have to care. [01:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah, it just, it could just send you the ecash token, which then you can do whatever you want with it. [01:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting that it does kind of change that. [01:27:59] Speaker A: The difficulty and the nuance is how the subtlety and like, what is an interaction, because that's what, that's what advertisers are paying for. [01:28:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:28:10] Speaker A: And the simplest interaction is user clicks on ad to see ad. But I'd imagine that is not the most profitable advertising. I'd imagine the most profitable that advertisers want. Or I say advertisers. But like, for example, if you were advertising your show, like, what you would want is for the user to do nothing and see it. And that, that brings up a really interesting thing because the user, the user clicking on it or like doing a valuable interaction, that's where possibly, like, that's where you'd want to pay the user out because then you're rewarding them for. For giving the ad attention. Like, they've given it some attention. But then, yeah, if they're just seeing a banner ad and not getting paid for it, that feels like spam. And so there's like two different payout mechanisms that you'd have to figure out, like the passive one and then the active one. And. [01:29:06] Speaker B: Speaking of just a thought. Is this a pwa? [01:29:11] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's. It's installed. I have it on umbrella start 9. [01:29:14] Speaker B: Good. Because you'll get kicked off iOS immediately if you start trying. [01:29:18] Speaker A: I'm not even trying to get on iOS. [01:29:21] Speaker B: It's so funny. I was just talking to John Carvalho. He's like, we're not even trying. We're building As a pwa like so many people just tell me horror stories about dealing with iOS and if they do any advertisers that you have to go through their and pay them 40% every time. [01:29:38] Speaker A: It just, it's not even a money problem. It's just a, it's a development drag. Like yeah, I, I, I've have it. I bought an iPhone just to test some like native stuff because I would like to build for it. There's like five different steps to get, to get an app deployed on the iPhone. Like you have to go sign up, you have to create an Apple account, you have to create a team with them, you have to get Xcode, you then have to have a Mac and then you have to authorize your developer team which is usually just you on your iPhone as being able to install an app. Then you can build your app and then you can upload it to your iPhone. But it's only active for a week. So you have to re upload it again for the development builds. You have to re upload it to your iPhone. What to keep it active every week. It's a week or so. It doesn't last very long, dude. And so there's like give me like. [01:30:31] Speaker B: A three month test flight type thing. [01:30:33] Speaker A: At least the test flight. Like the test flight, you have to, if you want to get it on test flight then you have to go, you're limited the number of seats that make it hard for users to get in. You then have to go through their whole program. It's just like test flights. Like the App Store without review. Yeah, but it's still the App Store and it's, it's, they've made it so. [01:30:53] Speaker B: Complicated to getting pear drive at that. We're close to when that might happen and I'm not, I'm, I'm dreading it a little bit. I've got to like start my, my team and do all that crap that you just talked about like now. [01:31:07] Speaker A: But yeah, it's unfortunately, unfortunately it's what users demand. But I think there's a glimmer of hope and that now again this like I think Albi Hub and Albigo, I think they put it on the app Store but I think that still demonstrates this glimmer of hope that like for the users that have umbrells and start nines like little mini home servers, as long as you can solve the connectivity problem, the apps can be a lot more. It's, it's a much easier sell to the user then. Well, I mean nothing's Easier than putting it on the App Store. But it's a much. It's much easier to build an app that kind of has its back end on like a start 9 server. You just connect to it. Like think like Zeus or something. Or Albie or Albigo. [01:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah, dude, I. I love Albego, man. [01:31:59] Speaker A: It is, it's such a smooth experience. It's. [01:32:02] Speaker B: I can't believe I forget that I'm zapping from my own node sometimes because it like, worked. Like they're literally interchangeable. Like, it just works and I just. I love it. God, no. Strip Wallet Connect is amazing. [01:32:16] Speaker A: I feel bad about this now, but I was. I feel bad for not remembering his name. I think it was. It was one of the Albie guys, one of their team. [01:32:25] Speaker B: Nobody cares about them. They all suck. [01:32:28] Speaker A: I'm so bad with remembering names, though, so I apologize for that. [01:32:31] Speaker B: But don't even, don't make me feel even more guilty. I'm garbage. I'll forget your name in like three days. [01:32:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to say it was Renee, but I remember talking to him about, about like Nostal Wallet Connect when it was like first a concept and he was, he was working on like, was it green light? What is that? The offline lightning signer. And he was like working on a prototype to get like an offline lightning signer that also had like Nostal Wallet Connect connectivity. And I remember at the time I was like, oh, this is an awesome project. I will totally use this. But I thought it was always just going to be like a fringe thing. I was like, oh no, it's just another way of connecting. And then they released Albigo, an Albi Hub, a few months ago. I don't remember. It's recently. [01:33:22] Speaker B: It was very recent. Yeah. [01:33:23] Speaker A: And just now like, oh, this is why it is important. Like, it's not just another way of getting around like the DNS problem. It's not just another way of like doing a simple peer to peer network. No, no, no. It is the smoothest lightning experience you can get. [01:33:41] Speaker B: And I think the real, the real beauty of it is that because it solves the connection problem is especially like with my Start 9 because I have the Start 9 Pro or whatever, self. [01:33:53] Speaker A: Sovereign, like viable, it doesn't matter where. [01:33:55] Speaker B: The server is, totally viable. Because this thing can actually. It's actually pretty beefy. Like so you know, when I'm doing like a hosted lightning node, sure it's on some giant piece of hardware, but I'm only allocated, you know, eight gigs of ram and you Know, like I'm. I'm allocated a very small part of that computer. And sure, because it's hosted for the web, I have generally good experience with it. But my start 9 is much better than I can get for a reasonable monthly fee on somebody else's big server somewhere. And because of that, as long as you have. As long as you solve around Tor, around the slow delay frustrations of trying to connect over Tor, if you can get a connection stream, it's so, it's so responsive. [01:34:47] Speaker A: Well, that's the beauty of it. [01:34:48] Speaker B: It just takes like that to boot up. Look at my balance. Send a zap, whatever. [01:34:53] Speaker A: It just goes for yourself. Like that's the beauty of it. Like for yourself. Once you solve the connectivity problem. I didn't realize it, but that was the awesome part about Nostal Wallet connect is it wasn't trying to solve the connectivity problem for the entire Internet. It was only solving the connectivity problem for your money. And once you solve that problem. Yeah, even like a. Not be. Even like a Raspberry PI, don't run them on that. But like, that's plenty of. That's plenty of processing power to run at your house, to run in your basement somewhere. And it's plenty of power for one user. And now you have offloaded, you can do a lot more. Like I said before, like, that's what the kind of glimmer of hope for me is, is you can do so much more on a small dedicated server than you can on a phone. [01:35:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:46] Speaker A: And if you, it's just, if you could just solve the connectivity problem, it opens so many doors. Like this small dedicated servers can have 16 terabytes of storage, whereas there's no way a phone can have that. And it's crazy. What, what's possible. [01:36:03] Speaker B: You're talk, you're, you're. You're literally giving the first four sentences of my whole thesis for Pear Drive. Just solve the fucking connection problem. And oh my God, I have so. [01:36:17] Speaker A: Much been trying to solve the amount of years. Dude, if you. Have you heard about ipfs? No. [01:36:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. [01:36:26] Speaker A: Well, IPFS and syncthing, which actually works. [01:36:31] Speaker B: So sync thing I have my issues with. Sync thing I have, I have issues with all of them. Like, I'm pretty picky in the degree of integration that I want this thing to have. Like when I'm thinking about files between my computers. And it's beyond frustrating. One thing that, like, drives me crazy. I think it's sync thing that does this, if I'm not mistaken, because it's one of the few that I've gotten to actually work. But the kind of the default policies and like changing settings is infuriating. Because what I want to be able to do is lean on the fact that certain devices have an enormous amount of space and certain devices have no space. [01:37:18] Speaker A: That's a problem that hasn't been solved yet. And that was something I really. Before I even found Nostra, before I found Bitcoin, I wanted exactly that. I was like, I have terabytes of storage on my server. My phone does not have terabytes of storage. My family members, they don't have terabytes of storage, but I have terabytes of storage. [01:37:38] Speaker B: You and me are in the exact same position and we have the same problem. [01:37:42] Speaker A: I built two prototypes that did nev. That never worked. And I didn't understand at the time why they didn't work. But I built two prototypes because I was like, same thing worked for me, kind of. You had the problem of like, you can't. It's a, it's a, what's it called? It's a RAID one type of system where the data is copied everywhere, which is not really what you're looking for, but in some cases it gets the job done. And then you had IPFs, which honestly didn't even work. [01:38:07] Speaker B: Dude, don't even get me started with that. [01:38:09] Speaker A: Don't get me started. [01:38:10] Speaker B: I tried so many different ways. [01:38:13] Speaker A: The straw that broke the camel's back for me was when I booted two IPFS nodes up on the same network. I told them to bootstrap with two with each other. I saw in the logs they connected and then after 30 seconds of being connected to each other, they disconnected and they would not talk to each other. I'm like, I told you where the other one is. [01:38:35] Speaker B: This again, I can't do it. [01:38:38] Speaker A: So I, that, that was the end of that. [01:38:41] Speaker B: But yeah, experience with all this shit. I tried to set up an SMB server on my Linux machine this year. Was like 30 years old. It was like the oldest tech in the world. It disconnects all the time. I'll just bring up my finder in Mac and be like, there's. There's my Linux machine. I click on it, there's my folder, they click on the folder. Disconnected. There's no, there's nothing here. [01:39:01] Speaker A: It's. It's crazy. [01:39:02] Speaker B: And I go back to my network and I have to like manually ping the thing and bring it back and does the same shit over and over again until I get fed up with it and I want to scream. And I just put it on a thumb drive and manually plug it into my device. [01:39:15] Speaker A: That's, that's the beauty of all this stuff is like we get to revive all that tech again and make it work. [01:39:20] Speaker B: Right? [01:39:20] Speaker A: Because all of that tech, like SMB, like ntfs, which I. No, ntfs, that's not encoding. Nfs, that's the Net. There's, there's sftp, FTP, all that, all those like file transfer stuffs and data transfer. That seems to have all fallen by the wayside as like the Internet got more centralized and. [01:39:43] Speaker B: But it's still there. [01:39:44] Speaker A: It's still there. It's just there. It's. It's not bug free, but unfortunately. But maybe that'll get better as we, as we need it more. [01:39:53] Speaker B: Well, hopefully I have enough Bitcoin and I can figure out a way to, to monetize this or get some grants and I can help and you can build Blossom. And like, I mean, I think there's more pressure, motivation and funding to solve this problem than there has been in a very, very long time. And my. [01:40:17] Speaker A: That's the awesome part is we can do it now. [01:40:19] Speaker B: My whole life of exploring it. We do. Exactly. We have kind of some fundamental tools that actually allow us. [01:40:25] Speaker A: The fundamental tool is the universal identity the keys give us. Because as I mentioned, I tried building this concept of shared data storage just between family members. Naively tried to build it before and it never worked. And I could never get something that felt like it would actually work. And only after the fact, after I got into NOSTR and started working on Blossom stuff. And I realized that the missing part was that I had no way of talking about a user. I was talking about computers and the storage and the relationship between computers and it got so complicated. I was like, I need a user. But the issue was I couldn't have a user because the user would have to live on a computer. And then how do you have the same user on two computers? How do you have it this. How do you know that it's the same user on the phone versus on their desktop and on their server? [01:41:19] Speaker B: And it's amazing how much how many of our problems are actually authentication problems and we don't realize it. [01:41:25] Speaker A: Well, there was no identity before. [01:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:41:28] Speaker A: You had no way of like having a. Yeah. An identity that moved. It was always on a server somewhere and it was that server acting that server creating the identity for you. And it was. And that caused. It causes so many not problems. It just makes everything so much more complicated. [01:41:48] Speaker B: Mm. If anything moves and the ID doesn't move with it, it's just nothing's attached. No, nothing's like axiomatically connected to each other for its meaning. The user, the identity, the data, the server, the. All of it is just kind of arbitrary based on what the server says it is in that world, you know, and until you separate the keys, until you separate the user themselves, what identifies the user themselves from that suddenly all. [01:42:17] Speaker A: Of those problems are solvable flips on its head. The fundamental, I believe to be the fundamental thing that centralized the Internet, which was that authority. If my user is only on a server, I agree if I have to like to know who I am or to use that identity, I have to talk to the server. And things work better if that server is centralized and on aws. And that's. It's not even a data problem. Like it doesn't even matter like how much data I need. It's just my identity. But if my identity is not on a server anymore and it's like wherever I take it, it doesn't matter. That need to have the identity in the fastest, most accessible place is. It's not there anymore. And there's a whole bunch of technical reasons too. Like it. It simplifies things immensely when you don't have to talk to a server to know who you are. When you can just prove it cuts the complexity down by at least half. [01:43:23] Speaker B: Well, it removes the. The layers of communication that have to happen. And granted, you know, a lot of this is ads and stuff, but it's really funny. I'll go to. So I have a. Our project management app, it's called Asana. And I work with my producer. My producer's become like an expert in Asana since we switched over to this thing because he spends hours figuring out how to do all the little like dependencies and like to do hierarchies and all this stuff. Guys type a person out like 100. Like my whole thing would be a disaster if it weren't for him. But in exploring this thing, one of the things that I'll do is I'll actually open links inside of Asana because it's basically like a pwa. And so it will just bring up websites and stuff. But the cool thing is is that it like it's really minimal, so I don't have all the other browser crap in my way. So if I want to bring up like just a noster post or an article or anything like that to look at it so I can read, it's really Just kind of like just read this. You know, I'm not getting a whole bunch of other stuff or getting the bunch of tabs or anything. So it's like kind of back to my idea of like I like single purpose apps is it just gives me a clean interface and so I'll read my articles when I'm doing a show from that. But here's the really cool thing is I have a little snitch on my Mac and for certain applications I still have it ask me every time it makes a connection. And one, and this is probably, this is a little bit like the ideology, the culture and everything, but it's still just kind of funny. The how it, the difference is, is when I bring up a noster post it will say, do you want to allow Asana to connect to this? And it'll be like a relay or something and like I'll even recognize the URL most of the time and I'll be like, yes. And then it just connects and then I'll bring up like a mainstream article like Financial Times or Zero Hedge or even Bitcoin Magazine actually has like a ton of advertising stuff on their website. But it will literally go through. It's like, do you want it to connect to Google Ad whatever services dot blah. Do you want it to connect to Ad sync dot cloud dot blah? You know, just like, it's just like one thing after there and I will literally have to click deny first. I click yes on the top the hierarchy which just shows the article and then I will click no on I shit you not, like 21 different things. And I know that sounds like really frustrating and annoying, but I love to just look and think about like every one of these has my connection. Every one of these people like usually is storing and knows that I have gone to this website and they're probably packaging all of this and putting together where I am elsewhere on the Internet, you know, and selling that to somebody and to just think that many connections are occurring just so that I can read an article and I just deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny. And then literally I just get like a text. Like nothing, nothing else loads. It's just like the article and like that's it. [01:46:37] Speaker A: It's such a bad user experience and it's so crazy. That's, that's an amusing. I mean we should still have these conversations. But that's an amusing side I found with these conversations where people are talking about, you know, open source apps being lightweight enough or how fast does it load or what's the user experience or how many connections, how many relays should you have and stuff like that. I'm like. And it doesn't compare to what exists nowadays. Like my Nostra app, the nostril I've been building. It's the initial load of just the assets is about 2.1 megabytes and then there's additional like half a megabyte of additional files it can pull in. [01:47:22] Speaker B: Some people put that like their, their homepage image is 2 megabytes and they don't realize that it should be like 150 kilobytes, you know. [01:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a problem. But, but then yeah, you, you load the, you can load these like news websites or you load any, any, any. I mean short of like Google. [01:47:39] Speaker B: They're horrible. [01:47:40] Speaker A: And it's like it's, it's, it's megabytes. One megabytes. One megabytes. And you just watch the counter go up and up and up and up and up as you. And it's not even like the media that's pulling in. It's literally just text. [01:47:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:52] Speaker A: I mean some people say, as I said, kind of back to the whole point, some people say we need to build better apps for, to get users. But there's a, there's definitely appealing factor about the open source apps where there's a certain amount that they're just going to work better because we don't have to, we don't, we're not required to rely on advertisers. [01:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And going back to the, the notion of how much, how many of those connections I'm making is one of the reasons, is because I'm trapped. Going to the Financial Times to read the Financial Times article. But if we're talking about highlighter.com or Yakahone or Yakahone, however you say that, then that information isn't trapped on that website. So if they're trying to feed me a ton of ads and 15 different connections, like none of those, those things are literally just on the website. Not the information, not the content. The content is an article signed. I can pull it directly with a con client that I built with an LLM, probably in 5 minutes flat on my own computer if I really wanted to, you know. No, CL is a very simple tool that you just import, you know, do a thing and then pull a note. You can just punch in a key and pull it if I ever wanted to. [01:49:13] Speaker A: That's the beauty of it. I'm not attached. [01:49:15] Speaker B: I'm not, I'm not stuck to any of Those connections, they're arbitrary to the information that I'm trying to retrieve. Whereas in the Financial Times or New York Times allegory or Parallel, I can't get it anywhere else. They, they do everything they can to trap it. Even when I try to rip it from the website, it's. It's usually a pain. I have to go like roundabout ways to trick it into thinking of Bolt or, you know, linked to it, you know, whatever the, whatever the hell it is, their requirement. And you can usually get around it, but it's like a task because they, they specifically are trying to pigeonhole you to make those 23 connections with advertisers and trackers and all the. Because that's how they make their money off of you. [01:49:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it's the amount of possibilities. What's going to change is crazy because as you said, like, the content's no longer tied to the district, like how you're getting it or what you're doing it on. And that's gonna, I mean, that's one thing I guess retroactively or like realized after the fact with Blossom is that the cool thing it enables is that if NOSTR enables that for, you know, the text data, you might say that the social metadata Blossom is going to allow that for. Or just a content addressable network is going to allow that for the heavier data. So like the pictures in the article, the. I mean, I've wanted to see this for a long time. It just, it's gonna take someone to build it or it takes someone to slow the integrations to happen. But like for podcasts, like an MP3 file, like RSS players are already downloading, they're already downloading like MP3 files from a server and putting them on a device and playing it. [01:51:05] Speaker B: RSS is just a format, you know, like, it's not even much to it, you know. [01:51:10] Speaker A: Yeah, but if that, if that RSS or, sorry, if that mp3 file was like, you know, hosted on like Blossom or content addressable network, you could download it from anywhere. You don't have to go to the podcasters like main Beefy server and download. Maybe your friend has it, maybe your, maybe your WI fi router happens to be running a node and it has it. And maybe, maybe your Start nine, like, you know that there's like a three hour podcast you want to listen to and Your, your, your start9 has an application on it. It's like, oh, he posted a new, there's a new update on the RSS feed. Let me just download it and cache that file for him and then your apps, just because it's aware of it, it will start 9, 6. It doesn't even have to go out to the Internet anymore. It just already has the file and it's. You can verify it's the same file. It's. [01:51:58] Speaker B: Here's the thing here, here's. Here's something that, like, I love about that, is that as long as you can still put in your lighting address or key Send or LN URL into the podcasting 2.0 thing, and then you sign it with your Nostra key, and whoever has it, no matter where you download it from, you still know that if you boost or tip or stream, you're streaming to the right wallet. And it doesn't matter if I download it from you, I can still stream to Marty Benton. Matt. Oh, yeah, you know, and. And even. Even more interesting is that I could leave a space for a 5% or 10% cut to whoever's seating it. So, like you, I could leave it so that literally as a. As a split in the thing I could sign that says, if you're hosting this, put your thing in here. And if anybody boosts me 200 sats, you get 20. Like, that's. That's another thing I'm really, really interested in. [01:52:56] Speaker A: And thinking about that, that actually reminds me of something I forgot to mention that we talked about earlier. But, like, with monetization, the cool part of, as you mentioned, with like the lightning address, the key send addresses and all that, all this stuff building in layers enables so much experimentation when it comes, like, how do you plug these things together? So the monetization side of things, something I've been working with with a few guys on Blossom servers, is the cons being plugging payments into them. So effectively not monetizing storage, because that's a really hard thing. That's, you know, what is storage? What I mean by that is like, if I have 16 terabytes behind Tor, that is an entirely separate project than if I have one terabyte on aws. [01:53:50] Speaker B: Yes. A thousand percent. Oh, my God, a thousand percent. [01:53:53] Speaker A: So, but like, monetizing. What even is standard monetizing bandwidth? The cool part is, like, now that we have all these layers that can be plugged together, you can start, like, what does it look like to plug in plugging a payment system into the actual requests and responses and whatnot, where you get the data. So, for example, what we're doing in Blossom is there's an old HTTP status code for payment required that was introduced. It's in the spec, the HTTP spec, but from my knowledge, it's never introduced. Yeah, 402 payment required. In fact, it's so. It's, it's not well defined at all. And when you read the documentation, it's funny because it talks about credit cards, but it turns out it fits perfectly in to what we're doing with Kashoo, kind of like a credit based system. Because what you can do is you talk to the server and you say, I want this exact data. And then the server comes back and says, well, that's going to cost you this much because my bandwidth is expensive and I got to send it to you. And then you make me read like, oh, okay, I guess I'll pay those 21sats and you ask again. But instead this time you include a little bit of cashew. You include a cashew token that is worth that much. And then the server's like, oh, okay, I'll take that payment and here's your file. And the beauty of it is that it all happens within the protocol. Like it all happens within HTTP. It's all one connection. There's no going out and checking a credit card. There's no. [01:55:38] Speaker B: That's so cool to think about. Like it's literally in the exact same connection. And you can just verify the data by the data, you know, I mean, like you're not, there's no ap. You're not like calling out to some server to confirm a balance or anything. Like if, if the ca. That's. None of. [01:55:55] Speaker A: That's. [01:55:55] Speaker B: That's wild. [01:55:56] Speaker A: It's absolutely beautiful because again, it's just, it's kind of. I just have to, we just have to build little bits here and there and wait for it to be built out. But it enables you to make money for distributing files and it even makes, in some cases in the reverse, it makes a market for distribution, file distribution. And the cool part about that is it works both ways. By just inserting payments into the distribution mechanism, it makes it so that you can run a really fast VPs and get paid for either taking uploads or get paid for people downloading stuff from it or cover your costs. But the cool part is once you put a market into something like a protocol, it doesn't just stop at the first order effects. Like it doesn't stop at, you know, oh, the Blossom server is going to cost, you know, it's going to charge like 10sats a gigabyte to download. Like, it doesn't stop there because once you have like true Payment like a, like a Bitcoin style payment, not a credit style, like credit card style payment. Once you put that into the protocol, well, now if it costs the server 10 sats a gigabyte to download, and if the server doesn't have the file you're looking for, well, it might be willing to pay somebody five sats a gigabyte to upload that. So you could have a very, very easily have a kind of a market system where the data is kind of stored on the edge and when it's needed, you have the kind of, the monetary demand. Like when the monetary demand reaches a point, it would motivate that data to move up to a more accessible place. And like, kind of what that looks like is you can end up being. [01:57:48] Speaker B: A retrieval system as much. It's, it's like you can reach out and in the, in the peer to peer sense, like in like BitTorrent, that's a, that's a great thing that would be, that could be really relevant to Pear Drive actually, just because like, part of it is to kind of solve some of the problems of BitTorrent and like down the, down the line for where we want to go with it, but like having the nostril IDs, the zaps, the, you know, the blossom alternative, like you could have a public place where you're basically broadcasting out that, you know, people have put, you know, a hundred thousand sats in quote unquote bounties or requests for this file because it's not there anymore. And then, you know, somebody could literally walk the, you know, look at the, look at the requests and be like, oh, oh, somebody's looking for this. I'm pretty sure I have this. Let me dig this up out of my, out of my node, you know, and repost it. And then I get, that's the beauty of it, 80% of bounty, whatever it. [01:58:47] Speaker A: Is, there's like a, there's an efficiency. It's literally a bounty you can monetize. Like the hub and spoke model, it's. [01:58:54] Speaker B: Crowdsourcing the Internet archive. [01:58:56] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. [01:58:58] Speaker B: Oh, that's a crazy way to think about it. [01:59:00] Speaker A: Well, the craziest part about this is like this is all coming. It'll all eventually be here. Like I said, it's just as you know, with open source, it's all coming at some point. It just, it gets built when the right developer finds it. [01:59:14] Speaker B: But surely. [01:59:15] Speaker A: Yes, but you could run a start 9 with 16 terabytes of all the latest cat pictures and then if anyone's looking for Those like old YouTube videos or cat picture anything. [01:59:27] Speaker B: Your cat picture analogies are my sandwich analogies. [01:59:31] Speaker A: Well, I use it specifically because a lot of, a lot of counter arguments to file distribution is people arguing for distributing five to 10 to 50 gigabyte files. And they're not the same thing as smell files. They're. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're very. It's a very different problem. But you could, you could totally have a system where you have a giant pile of data on your little Tor connected node and you could be making money by just watching the broader marketplace and uploading what people request. Like it's already working. [02:00:09] Speaker B: It's already like a bulletin board. Like I've, I've done this so many times. I actually have better luck on Noster than Twitter, actually. I mean, granted this part, the audience probably is more aligned with saving stuff and, and you know, like, especially with Nostr, there's not like a built in or Domus or whatever doesn't have like a built in gift thing. And you know, people talk about it all the time, so everybody's got their, their gift folders. But I have many, many times asked people, done a Twitter post and an Austria post asking for somebody to provide something, be like, you know where that chart is or that GIF is that does this thing. Like just the other day it was the, the SWAT gif, you know where it's like that ridiculous video. They're like bust in the door and they crash in through the ceiling. And then, oh yeah, one of the SWAT team guys just takes a pot. I mean a. Just crashes against the wall for no reason. It's just a hilarious like over the top SWAT thing in a house. I could not find it for the life of me. I spent like 10 minutes searching all the searches, you know, and it was not coming up in any of them. And I just said, please, somebody will not here fix this for me. Like where the hell is this thing? And then immediately like within like two or three minutes, three people posted and I couldn't tell what the order was because I mean I could have, I could have found out who did it put first, but they were close enough behind each other that I just paid all three of them 2100 sats. I was just like, you saved me. You saved me 30 minutes probably. And now I gotta send a funny gift to a friend instead of just a I wish I had this gift because that would be really funny in this instance. [02:01:40] Speaker A: No, it's a, that's a perfect example of what I was talking about before where that is technically a, that could be a technical. And a technical problem to solve because that's something computers could solve. But that's a perfect example of a social solution for what could be a technical problem. What is a technical problem? Because you just kind of leveraged your social network. [02:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:02:01] Speaker A: And, yeah, that's. I mean, it's just a matter of, it's just a matter of building the apps that solidify that type of communication so it's no longer a social thing anymore. You don't have to make a kind one post and ask people about it. It's just something the app does. And as I mentioned before, like, it's, it's already working there. There's already some apps out there that do this. That's really awesome. It just, you know, like, like anything open source, the, the, the bar needs to be lowered for how easy it is to run. But there's this. There's an awesome Nostra client called Nov, and I actually don't know where it's deployed. It's. It's. I know it's hosted on nsight. [02:02:47] Speaker B: I feel like that probably made it to my, my local key room where I just save random links and I probably never dug into it. [02:02:54] Speaker A: You could definitely find someone who, who's where the, where it's hosted. But I mean, I tell, I, I say it's on nsight, but honestly, I can't tell you how to get there because you have to know the whole pub key. [02:03:05] Speaker B: You don't have that memorized. What's wrong with you? [02:03:08] Speaker A: No, I cannot recite my pub key. [02:03:10] Speaker B: I always memorize my top five pub keys that I follow in Pub 1 and 893-7G Guy. [02:03:19] Speaker A: I do have the last of it memorized for mine. But I know the awesome part about the app is that it works with YouTube videos. So what you do is you log into the Nostra app with Google browser extension, you click approve and you. But let's say you just like paste a YouTube link in. And you'd say you put a request out to the network and says it effectively says, I would like someone to back this video up. I'd like someone to download it from YouTube. And then I usually a DVM or something someone's running will respond and be like, hey, I'm backing this up. [02:03:51] Speaker B: I can make so much money doing that. Oh yeah, I should just do that all day. If there's like good requests. I say, oh my God, I saved so much crap from YouTube. I'm always afraid it's going to Be gone. [02:03:59] Speaker A: The payments aren't built into it yet. But this is the beautiful part about it. This is where it has, like, so much potential, is the downloaded. The downloaded works, right? So you ask someone, hey, can you download this for me? And they're like, okay. And then download it to their little drive and. But then, because the metadata of the YouTube video, like the thumbnail, the. The name, the description, it's all stored on nostr, but obviously the video is not. Well, you can go back and you can browse all the videos and you can see that there's a video, but you can't find the actual file anymore because it's gone, because it got deleted from the server. So you just put out another request to the market and say, hey, I know I want this file again. I know there's somebody out there who has it. Can you please upload it to these servers so I can access it? And then like a DVM or some other program response, it's like, okay, yeah, I'm doing that. I'm uploading it to that server. It all works right now. Like, you can. You can totally just watch YouTube videos. And like I said, the bar needs to be lowered so it's easier to run on Start nine and Umbrel, and it's be a smoother experience. And then eventually, you know, payments will come and we need payments for all this. But like, the proof of concept is already working where you request somebody else to download the video, and then when you want to watch it, you request somebody else or the marketplace to re upload it so you can see it. [02:05:16] Speaker B: That is cool. [02:05:18] Speaker A: Yeah. If I had more. I need to set aside some time to actually figure out how to. How to run it or maybe package it for Start nine and Umbrel. [02:05:26] Speaker B: Mm. [02:05:27] Speaker A: And just so you can. But that's another perfect example of, like, once you start, it's the layers of all these things. And then you just put money into. Put money into the protocol, put Cashew, put lightning, put Bitcoin into the protocol. And now suddenly you have like a monetization strategy where you have. This is where like, I will download a bunch of YouTube videos that I like, and I will be more than happy to get paid to upload them if someone else wants to watch them. And something like that has not existed to date. [02:06:00] Speaker B: And we kind of have all the tools. [02:06:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:06:04] Speaker B: Like, we can make that happen. [02:06:05] Speaker A: Just have to be patient. And that's the. The difficulty with open source is like, usually you're not the person. It's patience and usually you're not the person to build it until maybe you are. And then you're the, you're the person who, who's, who's. Oh, the best way I can describe it is destined to build this and you just don't know he's Mud Destiny. Well that's, that's the story you hear about. Like if you ask any open source developers, especially people in Bitcoin, they're like, why did you get into it? And even for myself, like, it's the same story. It's like they're sitting around, they're a developer, they're like, well, someone. I have this awesome idea and someone's probably going to build it. So I'll just, I'll just wait till someone builds it and then, you know, six months goes by and they're like, why hasn't anyone built this yet? I guess I'll just start Hair drive. [02:06:55] Speaker B: Is that. Except 20 years for me. [02:06:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's been my. I, I did less literally what was the start of Blossom and the continue like Blossom of my Nostra client was there's a whole bunch of stuff I want to see and it wasn't six months for me, but it was a while and I was like, well, I guess I'll just start building it if no one else is going to. [02:07:19] Speaker B: Well, I really hope that I can help contribute. I hope there's like a really cool way that somehow these things can work together or just in tandem if you know nothing. But I'm super stoked about this just because like simplifying the. Basically giving the relay experience to the idea of like large files hosting, you know, like changing, changing that environment is such a huge thing and I think that hosting side of it is such a critical piece of the puzzle as we discussed. Now I am curious, like what's the. We're. We're already at two hours. This shit goes by so quick. What's kind of the next stage? And also just for me, how do I start playing with this now? Like, what's, what's, what's my interaction? And like do I just go to the GitHub page and you know, start exploring there? Two questions. I'll, I'll make it more concrete. What's the call to action for me because I want to start playing with it and then two, what's the next steps? Like what, what should people keep an eye out for with Blossom or your client or something like that? [02:08:36] Speaker A: Well, I don't know where my client's going. That's Just kind of its nature. So I just. It's a. It's a sandbox in that sense. But for Blossom, the next step, I. I could say, like, if you wanted to learn more about it, it's just. I think it's fairly easy to run a Blossom server. I hope so. It's, you know, go read it. It's like, go to GitHub, read the readme, figure out the setup instructions, bang your head against a wall for a weekend, and then get it working. But if you're looking for resources, there's this little GitHub repo I made to try to track as much as I can called awesome Blossom. Awesome Blossom just fell in. Yeah. And so that. That'll have, like, a list of. It doesn't have a list of clients to implement it, but it does have a list of, like, tools, various server implementations you can run. I have one. I've written my own server implementation. Kyrian on Nostr has also written, like, another great one in Rust. And then there's a whole bunch of. Yeah, Jeff actually added one to the relay. One of his relays. There's a whole bunch of them that are just all different types of implementations that you can run. But if you can get something running on a server, that's the. That's the. Probably the best way to understand it. It's like. It's like running a little HTTP server and then you can log in with your Noster key. Some of them will have like a. A UI you can use, and then you can just like, upload files and see how it. See, I'm. I'm doing a bad job of, like. Because in my mind, it's so simple. It's just. It does one thing. Like, there's not much, but you could probably find, like, run your own server and then plug it into Nostra clients and see how that. See how they upload to it and see, it's. It's. It's not. It's not obvious, but there's. There's a lot of interesting implications. [02:10:24] Speaker B: Right now I'm on the Blossom. I'm on your GitHub page, so I will have the link to the Blossom. Out of curiosity, what's the Blossom Drive and Blossom Audit? Are these in. Dude, you got a bunch of stuff up here. [02:10:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's all from. It's crazy how many repos you create once you actually start working on stuff. Yeah, Blossom Drive was. It's not part of the Blossom spec. I should have named it something else because it's a little confusing. It is a kind of a hacky recreation of Mega nz, if you know what that is. [02:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I use. [02:11:03] Speaker A: It's built on top of Blossom. So it's. It's the file you log into Blossom Drive as the application. You can create folders, you can create drives, and then you can share those and they're all public. [02:11:12] Speaker B: Okay, sweet. [02:11:13] Speaker A: It was a perfect concept layer on. [02:11:16] Speaker B: Top of it, basically. [02:11:17] Speaker A: Yeah, basically, it's an application on top of Blossom. Blossom Audit is something that I really should stop ignoring and get finished. It is a little audit tool I've been building so that I can like, test and help people debug, like, their implementations of Blossom servers. Like, make sure that everything's working. Yeah, that's about half done, but yeah. And then there's a whole bunch of other fun stuff to explore on there. [02:11:43] Speaker B: Well, I will have links to all of this. If you think of any other links that you want me to include, obviously I'll have your impub in there as well. But yeah, tell everybody where they can follow you. Any other. What's the. What's the URL for? Or is awesome Blossom not up yet? Or is it. Is there. Is there a website for it or is it just the GitHub page? [02:12:06] Speaker A: No, it's just the get. It's just the GitHub repo. [02:12:08] Speaker B: I'll have the link to the repo then. [02:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that actually reminds me. There is. If you want to start playing with it before setting up a server, there is. I did build a little nostra app called BlossomServers.com that will let you see, like, it's basically a simple way of listing what are the public servers. People can post and comment and rate stuff. [02:12:28] Speaker B: Okay, sweet. All right. Yeah, definitely. I'll check that out. And send me the link just in case I end up putting in the wrong one. Or double check, I'll send it to you so you can confirm everything. But, dude, two hours and 12 minutes. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. This was. This was a great one. I would love to just kind of keep a chat going. I would love to get your thoughts on paradrive and vice versa. I do whatever I can to play around with and test out Blossom because I really think. I genuinely think we are in a place where these problems are finally going to be solved. You know, there's no such thing as a solution. There's just kind of like a different way of thinking about it and it becomes the norm. And that's what I think we are moving into. I think we're we're in the two steps forward phase that something that has been overdue for a really, really long time in how we interact with these things and the level of control that we have has been going in the wrong direction for a really long time because of how the foundation was misbuilt, was, you know, aligned poorly. And we are rebuilding the foundation, and I think we are on a very accelerated path of, okay, we need to. We need to build up the stack. And these are like perfect examples of how I think these things are going to be solved. And I love the idea of Blossom because it's delivered simply, you know, like files. Files delivered simply. Or at whatever the tagline was on your repo. [02:14:05] Speaker A: What was it again? Blobs stored simply on media service. [02:14:09] Speaker B: Stored simply. Blobs stored simply. Love it. Love it. [02:14:12] Speaker A: That wasn't even. I can't even take credit for that. [02:14:14] Speaker B: So, um. But, dude, thank you for joining me. Thank you for building and putting time into this and for caring enough to stick with it. To get a grant to, you know, like, we need people with motivation and people who care and people who can put their nose to the keyboard and get it done so well. [02:14:39] Speaker A: I can't help myself to some extent. [02:14:41] Speaker B: But that's usually how it goes. Right. Well, any other things you want to add or things for people to check out? Otherwise, I think we'll have all the links in the show. Notes. [02:14:54] Speaker A: Yeah, my. I mean, if you want to. I'm basically only active on Noster, so my endpub there. [02:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:15:00] Speaker A: But while I have you, I would take the opportunity to shill a great book that I. That I love. [02:15:10] Speaker B: I love book recommendations. [02:15:12] Speaker A: I have not seen enough bitcoiners talk about this, but it's a. It's the book called Momo by Michael Ende. It was written in the 60s and like. [02:15:23] Speaker B: M o. M o. Yeah. [02:15:25] Speaker A: M o M O by Michael Ende. And I found it through family members. And it's originally a German book. I don't know how to describe it. It is so much a bit. It has so many core ideas that bitcoin. It's so much of a bitcoin book, but it doesn't mention anything about money and anything about bitcoin. [02:15:48] Speaker B: Huh. [02:15:50] Speaker A: It is a very short children's story about how people lose time by trying to measure it. [02:15:59] Speaker B: Michael Ende wrote the Never Ending Story. [02:16:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that was his. One of his more popular ones. Momo, dude. [02:16:09] Speaker B: Thank you for taking the moment to do this. I am a thousand percent. Of course they don't have an audiobook. I still just buy it. [02:16:16] Speaker A: There's. It's difficult to find the audiobook in English and it's a little bit. It's possible to find the English translation of it, but it is a national edition, dude. [02:16:25] Speaker B: No kidding. [02:16:27] Speaker A: I found it probably about six months to a year ago. And after I finished, like, it took me a weekend to read or it took me a week or two to read. And after that I was like, I need every bitcoiner I know to read this book, dude. [02:16:42] Speaker B: All right, I am marking this and I am coming back and I'm buying this right now based on your recommendations. I will have lost 16 and a half thousand sats if this is a garbage book. And I am gonna forever regret and I'm gonna hold like a small place in my heart for how much I dislike you. [02:17:06] Speaker A: If this is a good book, I would say buy the hard copy. If you can paperback or buy a physical copy. And once you read the book, you'll understand why it's so much a better time investment than like an audiobook. Or there's an enjoyment I got from just like sitting away from my computer and reading that. [02:17:25] Speaker B: Boom, it's ordered. I got it. [02:17:27] Speaker A: I love it. I love the book. So anyway, that's my book recommendation, I guess. [02:17:32] Speaker B: Dude, that's fantastic. Thank you. That was a totally new one. Usually I'm like, oh, yeah, I love that book. Or I got that, or I just put on my reading list and that one's totally new for me. So that's fantastic. I'm glad you took that moment to. To push the book. [02:17:48] Speaker A: I had a suspicion you hadn't heard of it before because there's only a few bitcoiners I've talked to up to this point who have read it or knew of it. [02:17:59] Speaker B: I feel I'm embarrassed. Am I the guy that's read more about bitcoin than anybody else? I don't even know anymore. Who am I? [02:18:06] Speaker A: Well, it still applies because there's nothing about money or bitcoin in the book. [02:18:11] Speaker B: That doesn't make it not a bitcoin book. No, I'll tell you after. I'll tell you after I read it. Well, dude, thank you, man. This has been a blast. We should do it again sometime. We'll go. Let's do like a one year wrap up, see where things are and where Blossom is and I'll. And when you get the. If the client or when you get a new version of it out and you want me to test it or if you do like a private beta or something for some version of it or a Start nine implementation. I will. Oh my God. I will be on that, like out the gate. So let me know. DM me like whatever. Just stay in touch. [02:18:49] Speaker A: I don't want to promise too much, but maybe I'll have something in a year's time. [02:18:53] Speaker B: All right. All right, sounds good. I'll be waiting. All right, dude, cool. Thank you so much. [02:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me. [02:19:00] Speaker B: Yeah, dude. That was a fascinating discussion. That was a really good one. I ended up going down some rabbit holes that I didn't even think we would. Also really excited about Blossom. And because Nostr has such a clean and simple foundation and that philosophy of just building the thing that works, that does the trick and has the smallest number of trade offs and just getting to that next step, there's an element of if every problem is really, really small and simple that you can bring in a ton of people to continue to build on top of each of the previous solutions. And Blossom, Blossom feels really in line with the entire Nostr ethos and idea and how to make something work quickly and easily. So I'm going to be digging into this. I'm going to start playing around with the tools when I get some time, probably alongside pub key stuff that I'll be trying here pretty soon and hopefully testing out and trying to break Pear drive a little bit at the same time and maybe, maybe, fingers crossed, very soon I'll have something to share with you guys. It's already taken way longer than I thought. I really thought we were like a day or two away the last time I did this. So I've got to stop getting excited and I got to stop announcing an announcement because it always ends up taking longer than I think. So just stay tuned, you'll hear about it here. I'm not going to be able to not talk about it, so there's no way it will be missed. Don't forget to check out Follow Me on Nostr, follow Hazard on Nostr and stay up on the things that are happening with Blossom. I will have links to the GitHub and everything else we discussed in the show notes. And don't forget to check out the Bitkit Bitcoin on Chain and Lightning wallet that is seamless and has a beautiful interface if you want to be able to use on Chain and Lightning and you just want it to work. Bitkit does a fantastic job. And then of course the Jade. Plus, if you are ordering yours, don't forget to use my affiliate link down below. It's a great way to help out the show. And I hope you have a hardware wallet because you're a good bitcoiner. You do the right thing and you self custody on a hardware wallet. All right, thank you guys for listening. I hope you enjoyed this one. And I will catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin Audible. And until then, everybody take it easy, guys.