Chat_149 - We're Not the Main Characters with Aleks Svetski

[00:00:00] Speaker A: The necessity for guys to be around other good guys and girls to be around other good girls is like we. We had that really well structured all throughout history. We. It all up over the last. Over the last hundred years when we mixed everything together. And the, you know, the. The price we're paying for it is that guys are more like women now and women are more like guides. And. And you start to lose what we were talking about before, the tension. Because what you need for any sort of force or charge to exist is you need polarity. Like you need a positive pole and negative pole. You need a north and a south. You need a day and a night. You need a man and a woman. You need like, you need that. And the more you kill polarity and you move things towards sameness and similarity, the more you lose the tension and the more you lose the charge. [00:01:11] Speaker B: What is up, guys? Welcome back to the show. I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about bitcoin than anybody else you know. And this is Bitcoin Audible. We have Alexander Svetsky, my boy, back on the show again. It's been a while and we have a little announcement. The Bushido of Bitcoin audiobook, which is a fantastic book, is available finally. It took me quite some time to finish the audiobook and get it edited and I'm really proud and really excited. We talk about it a little bit, but the. He has actually a fiction section towards the end of the book. Just kind of like trying to paint a picture with kind of a fun little story. And I was very excited about that in. In particular because I got to do kind of an ear movie edit. You know, I've. I've wanted to do that for larger novels for a long time. It was a lot. It's a. It's a. It's an editing project to do that, but it is also really, really fun and it adds a little. A little extra touch. And so I was really happy with that and it was a great book to. To be able to put it in. So I will have the link down in the show notes so you can grab that audiobook and. Or the book on Amazon as well. And we're going to get in today's episode with. We're actually going to be doing a series on this where we're breaking down a lot in the Bushido of bitcoin because there's just. There's just a ton of fun discussions about a bunch of different things and. And it just felt best rather than just, you know, giving like a paragraph on every little piece or idea because it's a big book and it's, it's in depth. And you know, Svetsky as well, it just be sit down and have like a bunch of conversations and go in deep on a handful of things because I want to have a whole conversation just about like the rituals and tradition stuff. Because there's a, there's such a fun section in the book about that. Today we are basically doing an introduction and we end up talking a lot about fatherhood and about not feeling like we're the main character anymore and like what that means and thinking about a much bigger picture that we're a part of and the things that have changed in our lives recently that makes us see it that way and how this ties in to the virtues and the Bushido of bitcoin and, and why we think this is an important part of leaving a legacy and innocence, being a bitcoiner. So it's just a really good conversation. I always love hanging out with Tvesky. Oh and we talk about Satlantis too. He's got a bunch of really cool things with that and like his Noster projects and all that stuff. So lots to unpack in this one and lots to continue to unpack. So stay tuned. A lot more of those to come. Check out Leden IO they are bringing you this show. Very honored that they are supporting my work and I am a customer and I really like their service. Bitcoin backed loans was a genius idea. It's so simple. But bitcoin is just the perfect collateral. You can verify that it's there. The process is super simple because it's collateralized. It's not like this awful fiat credit score and 10,000 pieces of paperwork. It's just simple and it lets you not have to sell your bitcoin if you want to make a small investment or improve your house. And you just know that know bitcoin's going to do way better. Well you can buy yourself some time and not have to sell your bitcoin. So check them out. There is a link a little discount right down in the show notes. And don't forget to check out our other awesome sponsors synonym and what they're building with PubKey to redecentralize the web Pubkey app by the way. P U B K Y app. The HRF Human Rights Foundation. They do incredible work and I love their newsletter, the Financial Freedom Report. Been following it for a long time. Well I, I guess since they started. And then of course Getchroma co That is Chroma is the company. They do red light therapy. They do getting your circadian rhythm and your hormones right. Such a big deal for your energy levels because light has so much effect on it, especially for staring at screens. You got a 10% discount with code, bitcoin, audible. All those links and details are right down in the show notes. So with that, let's get into this episode with Alex Svetsky. This is chat149. We are not the main character with Alexander Svetsky. Welcome back to the show. Svetsky. How you doing, man? [00:05:44] Speaker A: Good, man. Good, good, good. I've. I've joined you in the ranks of daddy. Finally took me a while. [00:05:52] Speaker B: Oh, my God. How is that going, by the way? So you're five weeks and give me. Give me the rundown. Give me the experience. I want to know because I know, I mean, whatever of the birth or whatever your wife is comfortable with. We had a home birth. Not even. Not even intentional. We've been moving in that direction. We totally were not prepared. It just kind of got away from us. But now my wife is 100 sold on it. She's like, we're doing it this way for the rest of the kids. Yep. Because her recovery was like, she hated. She hated not feeling. Not being able to feel her legs and like, like everything, like basically waist down for like the next two days. And she, like, she couldn't control anything. Just. She absolutely hated it. And then recovery just took so long. It was like this low, slow slogan for like she said, really about twice as long as the. The home birth. She's there. Just. It was just such a huge difference. Like she could. She was actually up and moving around. She could feel things. You know, she walked to the wheelchair and then got up and walked away. You know, she's like. She just did whatever. And I don't know, she. She was just kind of blown away by how great the difference was. So I'm. I'm curious. Yalls experience. And this is a first baby, not a second one. [00:07:20] Speaker A: So, yeah, the. I mean, to your point, I think the other thing as well that you. You didn't quite mention there that you guys would have experienced is just like being at home and not being in some foreign environment at a hospital like that. That. So yeah, our. So we. We intentionally did a home birth. And I'll. I'll very briefly gloss over it because I don't know how much Palmer wants to make public of this, but yeah, we. We did the home birth. It was a long one. It was over 60 hours. It was three night. [00:07:55] Speaker B: Holy. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah. So talk about like, oh my God, you always say like, I got married to, to an Amazonian because she's crazy and she's like Latina, but man, she just like proved that she's. She just basically the whole way. Now she didn't scream a lot, but she, she had this. I think I psychologically her over because I got her to, to watch the, the Rocky series before, before birth. And you know, she, she went in like trying to fight basically, seriously. So she went in trying to fight the contractions. And I think what that did was it, it, it prolonged the period. So I kind of had this mental image in my head which is if you kind of look at a woman's energy, each, each contraction sort of is like on the Y axis. Each contraction kind of like lowers the amount of energy they have vital energy to kind of push. But at the same time, each contraction is supposed to push the, the pregnancy forward. And basically the goal is to make sure that the, the baby is out before the Y axis energy level drops below the X axis progression level. And if you don't, then, you know, maybe you run out of energy. You can't push. You need an intervention or something like that. So anyway, our one took a while, man. And I think part of it was because like, she, she sort of had this tendency to like fight with the contraction instead of like let it pass through. But in the end she, you know, she learned how to kind of breathe through it and let it pass through and kind of like let go and all this sort of stuff. And yeah, it, it ended up being natural birth, all that sort of stuff. She like, she refused to because even at some point the midwives were like, do you guys want to go to the hospital? I was like, no, bro, she did not want to do that. She's gonna kill me afterwards if I, if I suggested I didn't want to as well because I was sitting there telling, I was like, baby, you do this, you can do this. You got it. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:58] Speaker A: And yeah, man, it was a, it was a surreal experience. Like, people talk about psychedelics and all this other, but man, this. At one point, because we were sleep deprived, like, we didn't sleep for three nights. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker A: And it just, it was, it was very emotional. It was a, it was a beautiful experience. And the little guy came and, you know, it, it was, it was sort of touch and go for a little bit there because his heart rate like had kind of lowered a little bit to the point we were Uncomfortable. She had to get an oxytocin shot. [00:10:25] Speaker B: I'm sure he was exhausted, dude. [00:10:28] Speaker A: He was wrecked, man. He was like, you both couldn't get me out faster. But yeah, he. He came out yelling, kicking, crying, screaming. And then it was amazing. It was a very special experience, man. [00:10:47] Speaker B: You know, it's funny how much this aligns with a lot of things that you talk about in Bushido of Bitcoin, because one of the things that, like, society has this extreme need to, to comfort everything, to like, make everything. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Soft and, and cushy and like, don't feel discomfort or pain in any, in any situation or event. And all I can think is now, like, in kind of the reframing, I think, like, how evolutionarily important it probably is that that is just such a crazy event because, you know, even. Even there's this old story, whatever talking about, like being like, on a Navy seals or like in serious training or whatever is that they basically teach you how to think after they've pushed you to the absolute limit. Like, they make you exhausted, they beat you, they just like push you all through the night, through the rain, through the mud. And then they teach you this is what you need to do. This is how you need to think. And because you're in this, like, this beaten down, you're. You're in this kind of like, very primal state. It burns itself in deeper and it stays. And to have that, when you have that experience, having a birth, like having your kid, like, I wonder how like, like that connection is real. Like, you will never forget that, you know, because you know at the end of it what you've. What you've fought this fight for, and it's just wild. [00:12:24] Speaker A: I'll give you a simple example. So actually, Tony Robbins talks a lot about this. The relationship between memories and emotional intensity. Do you remember where you were September 11th? [00:12:38] Speaker B: I do. I was in my parents room watching on TV. I was homesick from school. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Where were you on September 10th, the day before? [00:12:49] Speaker B: I have no idea. It's. [00:12:53] Speaker A: It's the perfect example. Right, so why. Why the do you remember September 11th and not September 10th is because there was a heightened emotional relationship to that moment. And it's the. It's the same with all sorts of things. It's, you know, beyond. Beyond the modern world, having attempted to comfort everything. The other thing that it's done in the process of comforting things because, look, creating a bit of comfort and, you know, sort of like cushioning things, it's not necessarily bad. It's the. It's when that becomes the ultimate metric for everything. So sort of safety becomes more important than freedom or growth or meaning or, you know, the. The other. The other more aspirational things which are fundamentally dangerous in nature. Right? Like, growth is dangerous, freedom is dangerous. [00:13:40] Speaker B: All this freedom is risky. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, very much so. [00:13:44] Speaker B: The. [00:13:45] Speaker A: The part where, when. When safety and comfort become the. The North. The North Star we ended up getting is a situation where it's not just about safety and comfort, but it's about numbing everything because you can't really make everything completely safe and comfortable. And, you know, birth is one of those great examples now of like, okay, well, let's just fucking inject. Just basically inject a numbing agent into your spine so that you can lose complete touch with everything. And so you don't feel it. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:19] Speaker A: That's sort of. The. The whole point of it is so you don't feel anything, which is. Which is strange. [00:14:28] Speaker B: It's sad. [00:14:29] Speaker A: It's sad and strange for a process that we've been clearly doing for many, many, many, many, many, many since the beginning of fucking time. Like, what am I saying? Century. I was going to say centuries and millennia. And we've been doing this. [00:14:42] Speaker B: Clearly been doing this for decades. [00:14:46] Speaker A: We learned about it in school. Right. But, you know, so. So I can understand, like, numbing the body or, you know, going through anesthesia, because I went through this random rabbit hole on YouTube, like, understanding what anesthesia is, and it's very, very interesting, like, what that process is. It's like this sort of cascade that puts you in a. In a different state, which is not necessarily knocked out, but. But not asleep and not on. It's something somewhere in the middle. It's. It's very interesting, you know, and you want to do that for something like, okay, you got to chop your fucking arm off or you got to get, like, internal surgery or something. Yeah, that makes sense. Right? Like, but that's not. That's very different. You know, that's an intervention as opposed to a natural process, which is what birth is, for example, which is what, you know, the, the rituals of growing up are. Which is what much of life is. Is like, you know, a process. But we kind of numb ourselves to not experience the necessary pain of the process because we've. We're optimizing for comfort, safety, and. And niceness. [00:15:51] Speaker B: So anyway, no, it's funny that that whole idea, like, using, like, safety as the North Star, there's like, this is a huge part of what I really like about the way the book Focuses on virtues and explicitly in the trade offs of focusing too much on one the, you know, like, like courage is great, but what happens if you focus too much on courage and you forget, you know, truth or respect or empathy or you know, like these, these sorts of other virtues and things around it is where do we get lost? And because like I constantly, I look back and relearn or re. See things that I've known about history or whatever and I, I began to see them more as these inevitable cycles. You know, like obviously fiat exacerbates and like worsens incentives. But also there is this natural cycle of humanity where when one thing, when we have to correct, like it's just, just like steering on a road is you, you overcorrect and then you have to go back the other direction or you, you know, you move things and obviously the tool or the car can change it and make it. Make it worse or have better handling and try to, you know, you have sound money or fiat money makes it worse or makes it better and. But that inevitably the world is always shaking, is always changing. Like nothing is static. So we're always, we're always veering around turns. And I love that the, the virtues don't come with. And like how you laid it out, it doesn't really come with an ideology like in. In the sense of like a political ideology or a quote unquote moral ideology, so to speak. It's like, well, how should you behave regardless of conflicts in. In those areas? Because my brother listened to it, um, in. In our, you know, getting for corrections and stuff. And we ended up having a long conversation about this idea that like, you know, you share a lot of things that you think about the world. But then you even note it's like, but it's not necessary that you have to think this, you know, like you can actually have mutual respect and different ideas if you actually adhere to the virtues. So anyway, I wanted you to expand on that because I thought that was really interesting. And we focus so little on behavior today rather than focusing on like what do you believe? Like you're just belie. You can be a total piece of asshole, but as long as you agree with me, you're a good person. You know, like this, this weird political like poison, you know, this just like a mess. And I like that yours was a total reframing of it rather than a which which one are you supposed to listen to or who are you supposed to believe kind of thing. [00:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that you got that out of it and brought up that point. So it's, you know, the idea of behavior and virtue over, you know, ideologies and whether those ideologies are religious, political, you know, social, whatever, it doesn't matter. I think it's very easy to get lost in, in the label as opposed to what the, the constituents of what the label was supposed to sort of represent. Right. And that actually reminds me of what you mentioned off camera just earlier is like the, the rituals that sort of emerged for a reason previously that people sort of forgot the reason behind the ritual. So they just do the ritual kind of like hand wavy song and dance and like, you know, I did it, you know. But why did you do that? I don't know. Just why not? [00:19:47] Speaker B: Because someone. [00:19:50] Speaker A: And it's the same thing sort of with these, with the ideologies and the moral frameworks and stuff like that. They, they exist because they were a, they were a way to label or group together a set of virtues. But what matters is the virtues themselves, not the, not the, the label of the moral code. Actually thinking on the fly here, it reminds me almost of sort of ice cream. Let me explain. So. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Chocolate or vanilla? [00:20:23] Speaker A: Now if you look at the ingredients of like a natural ice cream, you've got like eggs, cream, honey, milk, like so all of these like healthy ingredients. And if you sort of, if you remember that ice cream is supposed to be these healthy ingredients, you, you could like, there's no problem eating ice cream. But what we did was we took ice cream and we're like, okay, well how can we forget about the actual ingredients that are in there and just create a bunch of fake shit? [00:20:49] Speaker B: And it tastes like it and is really. [00:20:51] Speaker A: Exactly. So it's ice cream, but it doesn't have any milk or honey or cream or eggs. It's got some other fucking slop, right? And it's like, well, that's no longer ice cream. That's not the reason you eat it. And same with meat and the beyond meat. [00:21:06] Speaker B: And I was about to say beyond burger is the immediately thing that comes to mind. Exactly. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Clearly I like ice cream better than steak, which is why that came to me first. [00:21:19] Speaker B: So. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah, the virtues are sort of the, the important piece. And I tried to pull that thread because when, when I first wrote it, I remember the book was called like a moral code for Bitcoin is then I was like, who the am I to preach about morality, you know, like, know I'm an asshole half the time. So like, you know, let, let me, let me take a step back here. And if people want to Read about morality, they can go and pick their favorite religious book. If you want to read the Bible, the crown, whatever, right? Like, I'm. I'm not the guy to teach you about morality. But what I can do is I can point at. Point at what came sort of upstream of these moral codes, which are these ingredients. And in the process of pointing at those, I can tell you the story about how I came to find that these same virtues, or at least, you know, sort of 80, 90 overlap, were the basis of multiple, ascendant and beautiful cultures throughout history, which to me tells me that there's something there about these virtues. It's just not accidental that the. The great Christian west who spawned the age of, you know, global conquest and, you know, everything that we sort of hold dear to, you know, the modern west now, there's no reason, there's no coincidence that the same chivalrous virtues that they. That the warrior class and that the nobility of that time established were the same that the greatest Asian culture throughout history also did from their nightly class and noble class, like, that's not a. It's not a coincidence. There's something more there. And furthermore, what's interesting about all of this is that it wasn't some sort of, you know, focus around one virtue, as you sort of mentioned before. It's. It was a constellation of these virtues, which at times, when you look at them sort of in isolation, you're like, well, okay, this one here is actually opposite to this one here. Justice and compassion. Right? Maybe they're not opposites, but they're certainly. [00:23:29] Speaker B: They pull in opposite directions for decision making. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yes, Very, very good way of putting it. So if you sort of understand that, you start to realize that these. These virtues sort of naturally create a tension between each other. You know, I think I use the word in the book Tonos, which is sort of the. The tension between the. The. The string of the bow and sort of keeps it taut, right? If there's no tension there, you don't have a bow. Right. You don't have anything that you can shoot with. So many times in life, actually, the. You know, you. You have these tensions between the polarities that create the. The space for. For something to exist. And if you sort of look at these virtues, each of them are complementary and tensile in their. In their relationship to each other. And if you over index on one, which is, you know, to your other analogy about driving the car, I. I always use the analogy of flying a plane. A plane is actually off course 98% of the time. But it lands where it's supposed to land because it corrects along the way. Right, right. So we are always, throughout life, kind of over indexing to one behavior or another. I know when I was young, I was certainly over indexed on courage. I would do so many stupid things and I would say that sort of my tendency towards courage turned into a tendency towards, I don't know, excessive risk and stupidity. I did really fucking dumb things in my younger years. Things I'll never say on camera. You and I will discuss in person when we catch up. But I look back on that time and I'm like, idiot. Like, what were you thinking? You know, now that I'm obviously a little bit older and maybe I under indexed on areas like respect. You know, I didn't have a lot of respect for my elders and stuff like that. I didn't have a lot of respect for tradition. I didn't have a lot of respect for, you know, institutions and, you know, there's, there's a time and a place for having a disdain for, you know, the things that don't work. But I think I was probably excessive on that as well. And like, yeah, everyone and everything, it's my way or the highway. And I think I cost myself a lot of heartache, time, effort, energy and everything in the process of doing that. And I guess the, the process of maturity, the process of becoming older, hopefully smarter and wiser is the realization that you. To, to become well rounded requires building each of these different elements and not building them in a balanced fashion. I think balance is a little bit, you know, it's a cop out. It's sort of this excuse of like, I, you know, I'm balanced because I don't do anything and I don't push. [00:26:23] Speaker B: I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I think everybody, everybody who makes a. [00:26:27] Speaker A: Stand is, dude, there's a, there's a friend of my, a friend of my wife. So I, I won't point her out. She's, she's a, she's a good person, good soul, but the classic person who is like, literally lives on smoking weed all day and has no opinion. And basically she came and visited, I think a year or two ago or whatever. And whenever I'd ask her about an opinion about even something mildly pointy, the response is whatever makes you happy. I was like, but what do you think? She's like, you know, people should do whatever they want, whatever makes them happy. And I'm like, yeah, but no, like, you can't just do that. And it was really, really hard to have a conversation because. [00:27:12] Speaker B: Oh, that's so empty. Yeah, empty answer, dude. [00:27:16] Speaker A: It's such a bad answer. So. So that's like a lot of the people who are sort of overly into sort of the balance approach is like, you know, it doesn't matter. Like the. Go with the flow, bro. Like, everything is okay. [00:27:27] Speaker B: And. [00:27:27] Speaker A: And I don't think life is so simple. Certainly there's a, you know, there's a. There should be a tension between like the balanced approach on one end versus the I have to make everything happen and if I don't do it, it's, you know, the world's gonna blow up. Like, and you know, me, probably my personality index is too far to that side, which is, you know, I need to fucking do everything and I end up giving myself a heart attack. Um, so, you know, the. This is actually a good example. It's not you have to balance between them. It's that you need to find the tension and the, the position on that spectrum that you want to be for a particular context. Because maybe in some context you don't need to put in that much effort and you can take the balanced approach and be like, I don't give a fuck, whatever, you know, it doesn't matter. And then maybe in another context you actually need to go ham and actually give a shit and actually do something. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:23] Speaker A: So sort of, to wrap this tangent and this meandering ramble up is these. This constellation of virtues isn't about the balance amongst the virtues. It is about developing the capacity for all of them and then choosing which to lead with in the right context. And the final example I'll give is in a. Let's say you have a scenario where the. The house is burning down and, you know, you need to get the fuck out of the house. And you probably need to lead with something like courage to go and kick the fucking door down and go and grab people and throw them out, as opposed to maybe the, you know, the, the virtue of self restraint where you sort of restrain yourself and be like, maybe I'm going to get burnt here. Like, you know, depending. Maybe it's your family or something like that. So. So it's like you need to lead with the right one for the appropriate context. And I think the maturity in life or wisdom comes with knowing which one to apply where and how and all of that thing. [00:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think actually pulling it back to. Well, I also like the idea of framing it as a tension between these two things. Is that part of the whole just go with the flow, just do whatever you want is, is in the same vein as make everything safe and comfortable and numb yourself is because life inevitably creates tension. Life inevitably creates a time where you need that tension to react. And the idea, the, the purpose of holding these things is so that you have. [00:30:07] Speaker A: It's. [00:30:07] Speaker B: It's very, very similar to like I talked about before. This is that my big ref. That where I thought about a bunch of this type of thing and changed the way I thought about the world and people was really about dating. It was, it was when I realized how unbelievably insecure I was and how I was just thinking so wrong about who I was. Like I was identifying with my insecurity, like failing to recognize where I was strong and like, made sense. I wasn't valuing myself. And what a poisonous thing this does to your relationships because, you know, you carry around that insecurity, right? You. You hunker down and you speak softly and, and like you can, you can have, you can have somebody who's confident and somebody who's completely insecure say the exact same thing to a person and it. The exact opposite result. That's to what they read into it because you carry that around and you, you're informing people with your body language, with how you talk, your timidity, that, oh, I'm not worth talking to you. I'm not. I'm not worth being in this room with everyone here. And why would anybody do anything but take your word for it? They don't even know who you are, you know, so if that's what you're signaling, that's what they'll get. But the, the idea of the whole go with the flow and absolving this is avoiding the tension altogether. When life actually needs that tension all the time so that you can spring into action essentially so that you can react to things and you can actually, you know, you pick up heavy stuff when there's nothing around so that you can pick up a heavy kid when your house is on fire. Right? Well, you need to do the same thing for courage, for speaking the truth, for having a little bit of mercy and empathy towards other people or compassion for other people. And this is why when you tell little lies, when, when you refuse to speak up, when it just kind of makes the conversation uncomfortable, you know, but you're definitely sure that this is the truth, but you just, you don't want to push back, is that it only makes you 10 times more likely to not speak up when it does matter. You know, lie or make up stuff or say that you just know is untrue. To keep everything comfortable for years and years and years and then think it's like, oh, but when, when it matters. And when the Nazis come and tell me I got to kill the Jews or I'm not supposed to hide them, then, then I'll suddenly become, you know, a challenger. I'll, I'll suddenly stand up for what's right. It's like you've never even, you've never even spoken. Yeah, you, you've never, you've built, built no muscle at all. You've not lifted up a five pound weight. And you're ex, you think that when the time comes, you're going to lift 250. And I, I, that's why I like, I think that that idea of the tension between those two virtues or behaviors or mental framings, I think it's such an important way to put it because it's not about being comfortable. It's. It's about knowing how to hold kind of that mental strength is how to behave the right way when you know that's the way to be. How to have the courage to say the right thing when you know that's just the right thing to say, even though you know everybody's gonna hate you for it. Or to make a stance. Like I have a stance. I've been told I was over the latest op return and the latest bitcoin drama, but, you know, like, I have what I think about it, and so, like, I say what I think about it, and I've been wrong plenty of times before. I've been right plenty of times before. So I guess that's for everybody to judge. If I'm, if I have become retarded now, then. [00:33:57] Speaker A: Look, when it comes to bitcoin, we're all retarded, okay? [00:33:59] Speaker B: We, we had a good retirement. We had a good run. We had a good run, guys. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Oh, man. Yeah. When, when it comes to the bitcoin stuff, we are all retarded. I've, I've come to that conclusion. I don't think anyone knows what the fuck is going on. [00:34:15] Speaker B: And I feel like you've been in, have you even been aware of this? On. You've been so deep in the weeds with a kid. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah, man, I've been aware of it tangentially, but I just, I, I recognize that there's a, you know, in, in the, in the famous words of some meme online I don't know about when it comes to this. So basically, my Opinion is moot. [00:34:41] Speaker B: They get out of it. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Exactly. I'm totally staying out of it. And not because I don't care. Like, I. I had someone like. I think it was Konzo or something like that. Like, yeah, you don't care about Bitcoin. And, you know, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, yo, bro, I was like, I don't know what's going on, man. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Like, I just got here. [00:35:01] Speaker A: I just walked in the door. [00:35:03] Speaker B: Sir, this is a McDonald's. Exactly. [00:35:06] Speaker A: What a. This is a Wendy's, Isn't it? [00:35:09] Speaker B: That. This is a Wendy's. This is a Wendy's. That's right. Oh, man. [00:35:13] Speaker A: That's how I felt. So, yeah, I basically, for the people who, you know, want to sort of reach out to me on Twitter and everything and be like, how could you not get involved in this next row? I don't. I don't know well enough. I. I have a. I have an instinct. Just by looking at the physiognomy of the different people involved and sort of. That kind of leans me one way over the other, but in terms of, like, what is the right technical approach and everything, fine. Over. Way, way beyond my pay grade. And, you know, in this case, I'm actually gonna. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go with the flow, guy. I'm gonna go with the flow. [00:35:55] Speaker B: I'm gonna go with the flow. Whatever makes you happy. [00:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah, whatever makes me happy in this situation. I should be canceled now. [00:36:07] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. You just piss everybody off. Silence is violence, Fetsky. [00:36:14] Speaker A: Badly. What have I done? [00:36:16] Speaker B: What's the biggest change about being a dad, in your opinion? [00:36:20] Speaker A: I'm gonna mention three things, so. And I tried to mention these three things on another podcast a couple weeks ago, and I got to two, and then I forgot the third. So let's see if I remember all three this time. Yeah. Thing number one, I have no memory left. What are we talking about again? No, thing number one is I'm more conscious of how I intend to behave in front of the little guy, because I'm. And look, it's early for me, obviously. He's only five, six weeks old, and as he. As he gets older, my understanding from everything that I've sort of. Everyone that I've spoken to that are new parents and everything. All the reading and everything that I've done and the digging and just sort of. Even the process of writing my goddamn book just sort of made me think through this. You know, the dedication at the beginning of the book is to My future, you know, children, my understanding is that they will emulate my behavior more than they will do or emulate what I tell them to do. Right. So I'm much more conscious now of how I behave so that he can emulate the. The better behavior and the better posture and the better he can show up better. So that's. That's number one. God help me, I forgot the other two. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Um, dude, on. On that actually go. [00:37:50] Speaker A: And I'll. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Rad. Yeah, yeah, think on it. Um, he's three years old now, and I have after. After hours of just like, not listening or whatever. Like, sometimes I just get. I'm. I mean, I'm. I'm loud anyway. I get loud and loud and angry. I'm like, rad. Jesus Christ, would you please sit down? Would you please go to sleep? You know, and I'll. And I'll be like, you know, and it's so hard to try to balance the whole punishment, reward thing. Be angry, be calm. Like, because sometimes it's just insufferable and, you know, it's midnight and nobody's asleep. And. And then he will randomly, in the middle of, like, the next day or whatever, he'd be like, I'm angry. I'm not taking this anymore. Like, we're. We're done with this. Just. Just like, we're like watching TV or something like that. And there's. And I'll just be like, oh, my God, I did this to him. Like, he's literally. He's just. He is mirroring exactly what I did last night or the day before or something like that. And. And he doesn't even know what he's angry about. You know, he's just doing it because, like, this is. This is what you do sometimes. And I just like, Jesus Christ, how the hell do you. It's such a. It's such a navigation, but a thousand percent. Like, I'm always just thinking, you know, like, how can I. Like, being a father has tested the absolute hell out of my patients. And. And I'm trying to get much better at just being stern and direct without being angry and loud, which I have a tendency to be loud. I have. Tends to be loud when I'm excited. You know, somebody says something funny, I will be the loudest laugh. So. But yeah, no, I. I will second that one in. In earnest. And it only gets more and more obvious that that's exactly what happens. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Interesting. Well, yeah, that's certainly validation for my instinct. For my instinct here. Number two, I remembered it. Let's hope I remember number three after you respond to my number two. The desire to be the main character has sort of changed for me, and I don't know if this happens to everyone. I've always thought of life as somewhat of a game. My life has always been a game of war, right? So I'm always, like, going to war with something and, you know, battling against something, etc. But I kind of imagine, like, this idea of, like, we. We've got a joystick and we're playing the main character, and, you know, that's sort of our. Our life as we're growing up, and we don't appreciate as much, you know, all the other players, and we're all egocentric to a large degree. Everything's about me. I. And when you have a kid, at least my experience right now is that I'm not as interested in being the center of attention. In fact, I spoke about this with Marty Ben, is that I'm slowly, by slowly going to recede offline, man. I'm just not interested in being on X, on YouTube on this and that. Like, you know, I'm gonna do the odd podcast here and there with people that I actually enjoy having conversations with. But, like, I. I even, you know, I had this whole intention to kind of like, market and promote Atlantis and the book and all this sort of stuff. I hired some. Some people to do, like, podcast bookings for me outside of the bitcoin space and everything like that so that I can promote it. Do you know what I did? I paid all this money for them to do that, and I went and canceled all of them. I just don't want it. I don't give a fuck. Like, if anything, I just want to have some good conversations about stuff I care about with people I get along with, and. And that's it. But honestly, man, like, I. I have less of an interest in. In being the main character, and I'm sort of stepping back a little bit, and I'm more interested in helping my son now kind of evolve into that character and watching him grow. And again, it's really early. You know, maybe I'm talking out of my ass here. It's six weeks in, but that's the sort of the instinct that I've got at the moment. And that's like, a shift for me. And I think this is also going to be an important part of the Svetsky shift, which is, you know, I done my time as, like, someone loud online. You know, I said what I needed to say. I think a lot of People now know where I stand on a lot of things. The last straw for me, honestly, was the whole arena getting stabbed on the. On the. On the train and everything like that. Like, I popped the gasket, bro. I couldn't. I couldn't sleep for three days. Like, I lost my completely. And I was like, okay, this. I, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. And I just. I. I think I've also realized that the. The world, like, moves so quickly now. Things change so quick. Things change so fast. It's like, feels like a treadmill having to, like, continuously talk and. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah, never. It. It never ends. And, yeah, even if it did slow down, you're still just connected to more, you know, Like. [00:43:30] Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway, I'm kind of, like, opting out of the attention economy, and I'm personally sort of trying to move into the experience economy, which is do some shit in real life. And one of those real life things is help my son sort of become the main character and then bring some siblings into the world and all this sort of stuff and do stuff in the. In the real corners are going to. [00:43:58] Speaker B: Take over the world. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Yeah, man. Yeah. [00:44:01] Speaker B: One kid at a time. [00:44:03] Speaker A: One kid at a time. And then, honestly, man, do you know what I'm looking forward to? I was saying this to a bitcoin in Paraguay the other day. I was like, man, I'm fucking done stacking. Can bitcoin just hit, like half a million or a million already? And so I want to actually go and build some things in the real world. I want to go and build some fucking saunas and a wellness center and all this sort of shit. I want to do stuff in the real world because what the fuck is all the bitcoin for? Like, what's all the wealth for? Like, you know, I was speaking with one dude because I. I kind of invited him. We want to do, like, a local project here where we live and actually build, like, a facility with. With some saunas and cold plunges and stuff like that. And mainly we want to do it just because we want to do it, not because it makes business sense and all this sort of stuff. And, yeah, one dude who was a bitcoin. [00:44:46] Speaker B: Something you want to have in the world. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Exactly. And. And this guy explained to me, he's like, well, you know, I can make more money by holding bitcoin. And I'm like, it's not the fucking point. I was like, yeah, so what? You're going to have more money later. And, like, no one cares about you. Like, no one, you know, so what? Like, do something with that? So anyway, I'm going off on a tangent here, but this is sort of my new. My new motivation for life. And I think part of it has been triggered by the kid coming in. Me kind of wanting to be less the main character and wanting to do stuff more in the real world, at least, unless the main character online certainly have zero interest in that anymore. [00:45:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I feel like there's a, when you put it that way, is not the main character. I have noticed something more recently is every time I'm framing or thinking about things from the context of, like, just myself, like, from the very clear I'm the main character, it does feel hollow now. Like, it feels, like, disingenuous in some way. It's like I kind of like, who. Like, Like, I think about if, like, if my family weren't here, like, it doesn't matter how, like, I'm the main character. I would want to put it. Like, everything would feel completely pointless. Like, so, so, so much. And I think about what I'm doing in my behavior directly in the context almost universally, is, what is Rad gonna think of this? What would Isla think about her father doing this? You know, like, that sort of like, that's the frame that I carry around with me when I'm making decisions. Um, so I, I, I like that. That, that, that is kind of what it feels like, is that I'm not. I care less about feeling like I'm the main character. And it did just kind of happen. And I, I wouldn't have called it that until you called it that. Then the other thing you pointed out was I lost. I lost track on, on that one because I was thinking about the. Well, we went all the way back to respect for institutions and traditions. What was the. Oh, doing something. Doing something with your bitcoin is, man, the number of people who forget that time is the only other thing that's. That's more scarce than bitcoin. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Holy. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Like, yeah, way more. And, And I, I think that might partly be an age thing too, is that once you're in your upper 30s and you have kids, it's like, oh, yeah, this is supposed to buy me time. And, you know, like, we think about was this. Was this in Bushido and bitcoin talking about the pyramids? It seems very on brand pyramids. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Possibly. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Possibly there was. Because I've read a couple of things recently about it, but, like, we had this idea that, and. Which is such a fiat projection. Like, when you think about it is that, oh, the pyramids were just built with slaves by this big like terrible tyrant or whatever. And then if you actually look at the data, if you actually like look at the, the situation, whatever, it's like they all, they all had like premium. They always got the first cut of meat. They like this, they were treated like, like top of the line workers would be. And this idea that they were slaves, like, it was like, where does that even come from? There's almost no evidence to suggest it. It was just kind of like, oh, well, they're in. They. They built bunks for the building of the pyramids and this was a huge project or whatever. So obviously they're just slaves because I don't know when we figured, when we, when we started digging it up, that was just the, that was the excuse of a fiat society thinks that everything, Everything great has to be built with slavery. [00:48:54] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:48:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:55] Speaker A: They do that with everything. Every. Everything great was done by slavery. And everyone great was a tyrant and a. That's like nation of like modern historians and. [00:49:08] Speaker B: But like digging, like going back to that, there's a lot of evidence that like, I mean, and legends are such a perfect example of showing like what people found as like the peak value and it was gold. Like this was. This seems clear that this was a sound money society that built in just immense and powerful things that have stood the test of time. And the interesting thing about that is that, you know, money is just a proxy for wealth. It's not wealth itself. You know, it's not supposed to just be like, you don't get. I mean, you're not infinitely rich if you have a billion dollars at the age of 70. If you lost your years from 30 to 70 getting the billion dollars, you know, $10 million in your 30s might be just as worth or more because of the time that you have left to actually do something with it. And wealth is real. Wealth is something in the real world. Now the bitcoin system is real wealth and it's a system of networking all of the wealth that we have together. But the wealth itself is not the bitcoin unit. [00:50:24] Speaker A: Correct. [00:50:25] Speaker B: It's not the bitcoin thing. It's just a mirror. It's just a mirror. Don't fall in love with your reflection. Remember that you're supposed to build something in the real world. And that's why I don't like, I don't feel like I've spent a lot on getting Pear Drive to work. And I know it's got a hell of a long Way to go. And it's still going to cost me a whole bunch. And I've had some people suggest that I've spent way too much and it should have taken way less time, you know, and that makes me feel like a retard. Like. And I know I've made bad decisions multiple times along the way, you know, but I just want it, like, I want it to exist in the world and I have capital. Why can't I just build it? You know? And that's the way I think about from the. I don't know. Maybe that's kids. I don't. I don't know what it is, but I have just. My thinking has changed a lot, all. [00:51:20] Speaker A: Of that stuff, big time. You know, when you. When you're hoarding, you're generally doing it for. For yourself. Now, look, there comes a time when, you know, you and I are probably luckier because we got into Bitcoin earlier than, you know, some of the people who got in later. And, you know, we're sort of in a more privileged position in that sense. You know, it doesn't mean we got fucking lucky. We had to work for the shit and all that kind of thing. But, you know, there comes a time when, like, you move from saver to builder, because that's the purpose of fucking savings, right? So I think some people get caught up in this idea of, like, they just become a saver and a hoarder forever. You know, they blink and they're 50 and they've accomplished nothing, but they have a bunch of money. [00:51:58] Speaker B: I would also just say for people, like, money doesn't get you everything you think it does. You know, people think that money is, like a cheat code and, like, money helps, but you can easily spend an enormous amount of money the very wrong way and then spend a very little amount of money the right way and get 10 times what you thought you were going to get. In fact, the more money I threw at things, the shittier the results I've felt like I've gotten. You know, like, it's because somebody's there to sell you something. Somebody's there to just give you a advertisement or like. Like, people love that you have money and they want it, but do you don't even know if they actually care about what you're trying to build. And so do not think of, like, oh, if I just have $2 million instead of $500,000 or something, like, you're like, I'm going to be. I'm going to be super rich and all this Stuff. It's like you don't, you might just spend twice as much on the project because you think you can just throw money at it and produce results. And holy God, our government and the fiat. Everything is like, just give it a trillion dollars and we'll solve world hunger. It's like, you idiot. That's not, has nothing to do with money, you know, like, it's a system. But anyway. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. No, I, Oh, I was going to say earlier, I was just going to make a comment when you were saying, you know, the mistakes you've made as you're building your thing and obviously the, the mistakes I've made building Atlantis. I think we should call this, you know, the, the Retards United podcast or something like that. Because, like, seriously, man, it's. [00:53:32] Speaker B: I will be the leader. I, no, no, no, no. [00:53:34] Speaker A: I, I will. This, this is an area, guy. I will beat you, I promise. [00:53:40] Speaker B: Oh, God. [00:53:41] Speaker A: I want to say one last thing about main character. And then I, I, I don't have the third thing here that changed as a dad, but something that I just thought of as we were talking. But the last comment on the main character pieces. You know how, like, the, the boomers get a lot of, deservedly a lot of flack for everything that they, you know, screwed up in civilization over the last, you know, 50 years or whatever, but it actually aligns really well with the, with the main character sort of framework or idea is that they are, you know, that kid that you played, like, Seagull with when he was young and wouldn't give up the controller and would just hog the control and wouldn't give someone else a turn. That's kind of like what the boomers are as a generation. They didn't want to let go of the steering wheel. Gen X. We kind of totally forgot about them. We skipped to Millennials. And we're just the fucking retarded generation because we were kind of experimented on and we experimented with everything from fucking seed oils to digital this and do that, and we're a mess and we're kind of all waking up a little bit late, and we're kind of pissed off at the generation that are the boomers because we're like, well, what the were you thinking? And give me the goddamn control so that we can steer the ship. Right? Because the boomers are just like having a fucking party and they think they're the main characters still, and they think they're going to live forever. And this is actually also what pisses me off. About the, the, the, the never die crowd and the ones that always, you know, kind of like want to live forever and all this sort of stuff. They're like the epitome of the dork that doesn't want to mature and stop being the main character. And it's funny, like, I took a detour when I was. While we've been sort of building this Atlantis product and I went into sort of the nomad communities and stuff like that. And man, the fucking. So cringe. So cringe. There are a bunch of like overgrown kids in their late 30s who literally think they're still 20 year old and they're like, you know, I'm not going to have kids. Why would I have kids? I want to travel the world and it's like, be young forever. I'm like, no, you're a fucking loser. Um, like, grow up, please, for the love of Christ. So it just the, the main character conceptualization and it makes a lot of sense to me. The older I get, for lack of a better term is there's, there's something there about maturing, having kids and sort of becoming the person behind the scenes. And, and that comes with a lot of, a lot of benefits itself as well, man, because you don't want to be the fucking center of attention all the time. You know, at some point you want to be the dude that kind of like moves the chess pieces, you know, without having to necessarily be playing the game. So, so that, that to me is really interesting. And it's kind of like what I want to do with this next stage of my life. It's like, how do I lev. How do I find points of leverage? Where you kind of said earlier, it's like you, you spend a small amount of money the right way to do something big. And I, I thought about this actually recently is I used to always be the youngest guy in the room, and now I'm no longer that. Right. You know, late 30s now it's like, I'm not the youngest guy in the room anymore. So, you know, I used to really lean on like youth and energy as like my X factor, because I was always like a ball of energy and I would always like work harder than everyone else and like push harder. And I was younger and all this sort of now it's like, well, hey, I don't have that same energy and I don't have that same youth. So what is my X factor now? Would you know what it is now? It's like some level of, I would say three things kind of like, experience and maybe experience and wisdom kind of sit in the same bucket. And then also, like, well, roundedness, because when you're young, it's impossible to be well rounded. Like, you are still rounding, you know, so you've got all these, like, sharp edges. And like, if you were a tire, right, when you were young, you'd be this, like, fucked up hexagonal shape that is, like, got bumps and all over the place. Like, you know, and if you're driving that kind of a car, I don't. [00:57:41] Speaker B: Need to be round. I'm gonna make the road have divots for my hexagon. Exactly. [00:57:46] Speaker A: You know, I mean, that's what it's like when you get older. You're like, you know what? I should have just gone with the round wheels. And sort of. I think that's what you sort of trade off, right, is you. You trade the youth and energy for, like, well, roundedness and experience. And that's sort of the X factor that I'm trying to lean into now. It's like, I don't have to do everything, but, you know, hopefully with, you know, one pinky, I can do a lot more than I could with all of my fucking energy previously. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Yeah, this will be a tangent and. Or pullback from something much earlier in the conversation if you had something else to add on this. [00:58:20] Speaker A: I was just gonna add the third thing of like, oh, yeah, becoming a dad reinforced something I said in the book, which is respect goes up and love comes down. And so having become a dad, you know, I used to. I used to say a lot about that. And look, I'm gonna say something now which is probably gonna trigger some people. It. Let's just for old time's sake, let's just say it. [00:58:43] Speaker B: Why not? [00:58:44] Speaker A: I. [00:58:45] Speaker B: We're not go with the flow kind of people, man. Just. [00:58:49] Speaker A: Let's just do it. I think women are. Have more in common with children than they do with men. And hear me out. [00:59:00] Speaker B: This. [00:59:03] Speaker A: Oh, God, that's going to get. [00:59:07] Speaker B: I love this one. This is going to be good. Twitter's getting ready. I hear him warming up their keyboards. [00:59:14] Speaker A: In the family hierarchy, there is the, you know, the father at the top, the mother is next, and then the children come below that. Right? And the father's duty, very much like, if, you know, for those who believe in God, right, The father is above us, right? And his love condescends overall. Like, you cannot love God in the same way as he loves all of us. And your duty, you know, your relationship to God is more one of reverence and respect than it is one of love. Because love is something that sort of almost as. Like a. As an energy. It falls from above down. And that's sort of the relationship between man and woman, right? Between a husband and a wife. That the wife's role is far more to respect the husband because he doesn't come under her wing. The woman's role is not to protect the husband and to, you know, to look after him and to give him domain. Like, if that was the fucking case, like, the man would be the one bearing the child and having the baby. Right. So biologically, we are designed to create the domain. And we, as the. As the father, as the sort of the. The. The man of the. The house and the relationship and the family are designed to create that space, to create that domain, to condescend our love, our love to our. Our woman, our wife and our children. And we're the ones who create the barrier from the outside world so that she can have the space to bring and nurture life into this world and so the kids can have the space to grow up. Right. And then you, you know, the correct dynamic is that in the same way as the children must have respect upwards to the mother and to the father, you know, so does the woman have, you know, she has love for her children, but a respect for her husband. And it's a different feeling that she has to both, you know, because she's sort of in the middle of that there. And, you know, I say this to my wife, sort of tongue in cheek. She's like, you know, how do you, you know, how do you feel about your little son and everything? I'm like, you know what? I. I love him. Like, I love you. I said, you are both my. You're both my babies. I call them both sort of like, you know, you're both my little babies. You're both my little children. You know, you're like a bigger baby than he is. But I feel the same love for both of you because you both come under my protection. [01:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:44] Speaker A: So anyway, I've. I wrote about this idea of respect as a. As a. As an ascendant love and love as a. The. As a descendant love in the book. And since the babies come around, like, it's just reinforced that as a fact to me, not just as something I wrote about. [01:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it made a big difference, too, after becoming a father. But I was mostly just like. Made my recognition of, like, what this meant a lot deeper as opposed to, you know, it's really easy to, like, Remember the tagline or hear it said? And you're like, oh, yeah, that's probably right. But then to, like, understand why it's right, you know, And. And there's been a lot of those little things that I feel like after. After I have kids, it. It means a lot more. You're like, oh, yeah, I learned the analogies I always liked of like, you know, what's my responsibility as a father is that, you know, the father is the house and the wife is the life that the house protects. You know, like, it's the. The father is the rock. Um, and what's funny is that, like, that's what she wants me to be too. You know, like, she. That's what. That's what women are attracted to, like, at a very, very deep level, at a visceral level. Yeah. [01:03:10] Speaker A: Not all the horseshit that they've been brainwashed with and that we've been brainwashed with. [01:03:16] Speaker B: And especially coming back from kind of like my. My really insecure days and realizing that, you know, you're like, oh, I don't want to make the decision or whatever. I don't have this responsibility or whatever. It's like, well, guess what? Like, people will only be attracted to the one who's willing to make the decision and take the responsibility. And if that means other people complain, well, then get the fuck over it. You know, you're supposed to, like, that is what taking home the responsibility of making the decision means, is being strong enough to. To handle that, you know, and honestly, that's not. That's not that big of a deal. Like, you can get over it. You can. You could be a man and not be a little wuss. And so I. I basically would tell this to my. Myself for a very long time, like, as I tried to condition myself toward this. And. And now I just think about it as kind of like, I'm glad I practiced this, I guess, for so long, or started reframing in that way, because I've only realized why so much more, why it matters now when you have the example of a kid who's doing exactly what you do and mirroring what you say and dependent on the wall standing up around them in all the metaphorical and literal sense to actually get through life. And I don't. I don't want to think about my wife and my kids growing up without me, and I don't know what life would be without them. You know, like, my. My whole role would just. It's like, what the. It really. Like. Like they're. They're you become in a perfect tension, like a constant tension, like opposites of each other. So, yeah, no, it's. [01:05:10] Speaker A: You said. You said one word there that I'll just quickly touch on and then we can go to another topic. Is the word decide, right? So etymologically, the word decide means to cut off all other possibilities. And in doing so, cutting off all other possibilities basically means, like, the process of decision is saying no to everything else other than the one thing you decided on which is not very Kumbaya, it's not very balanced, it's not very nice, but it's extremely necessary, which is, you know, why, like, a lot of people don't like it when I've said this in the past, but, like, a big part of what's happened in the world today is we've feminized culture because the. The feminine is far more inclusive. The feminine is far more open to everything. And that. That is actually. You can't build a functional society like that. You have like a. The society requires walls. It requires the ability to say no. It requires boundaries, it requires rules. It requires all this sort of stuff. Now, if you go too far that side, you know, you. You can turn it into some sort of, like, Spartan extremistan, which is not conducive to anything outside of a warrior culture. And, you know, maybe in some particular enclaves, that's fine. But this sort of comes back to your analogy about the difference between the house and the home, right? So it's like the man provides the structure in the house, and then the woman creates that space and turns it into a home. And you need both. I remember when we moved into our place here in Brazil with the wife, I moved in a month before because she was with family in Dr. And when she came back, I literally had the fucking mattress on the floor and I had pots and pans in the kitchen, and that was it. She was like, what the are you doing? [01:07:03] Speaker B: I cook eggs and bacon and I sleep on this. Literally, I am man. [01:07:09] Speaker A: Within. Within a month, you know, we had, like, plants and everything sort of around the place and started feeling like a home. And I was like, okay, finally. So, you know, I had no desire in doing that. I was like, fine, sleeping on the couch and, you know, banging pots off my head and like that. So that's. Yeah, it's a beautiful symbiosis. And it's a shame that people get triggered over the fact that they point to the exception. It's like, well, not all men are like that. Not all women are like that. So therefore you must be wrong. It's just not how reality works. [01:07:41] Speaker B: Okay? You don't actually have to sell your bitcoin to access its value. You can actually borrow against it very easily without selling it. But when you do this, you need to be careful. You need to do this with a company that is trusted, one that has survived a bear market and one that will literally show you that they have the coins, that they have proof of reserves or some mechanism where you can look at your balance and know that it is safe. This is why I've been a huge fan and a customer of LEDN for a few years now. So one of the bitcoin backed loans that I got a few years ago to finish renovations and the basement and studio in my house, I would have paid three times as much bitcoin had I just sold it as it now takes me to just pay off the loan. And that's if I sell the bitcoin to pay it off, which I think I'm going to be able to get equity out of the house and pay off the loan and get all of my bitcoin back. This especially makes sense if you're making an investment. If you're doing something that is going to pay you income in the future, or if you're investing in bitcoin mining. It's a whole lot easier to beat the interest rate if you loan against the bitcoin and keep the bitcoin. Leden also makes this like crazy easy. Like if you went to do this right now, you could probably get the money by tomorrow. They do proof of reserves twice a year and I check. It's a very easy process. And you don't have to do monthly payments if you don't want to. You can just accrue the interest and pay off in chunks whenever it makes sense. And best of all, they just recently got rid of all the noise. They had some other features. They had Ethereum loans. They're like, nope, chop it. They had a yield product, nope, chop it. They had loans where you could get a lower interest rate and they didn't have it on their books. They lent it out. [01:09:26] Speaker A: Nope, chop that. [01:09:28] Speaker B: Now it's just custodied, fully backed Bitcoin loans doesn't work for every single situation or every person. But there are some times where this is an incredibly valuable tool to have. Don't overextend. Remember bitcoin is volatile and read the details. But if you need access to your bitcoin's value and you just don't want to sell Leden is a brilliant and simple tool for doing exactly that. And I've been a happy customer for a couple of years now. You can check out the links right down in the show notes. It's L E D N Leden IO there's so much of it that's kind of this like, built in self hate, I feel like. And you know, I think this is. I say this as coming from an old mindset, you know, like when I was more deeply insecure, I was also bitter about things. And I wasn't. I was never like a bitter person. Like, if you, anybody, if you ask anybody, I was fun, happy, go lucky or whatever. But there was definitely this part of me for the things that I couldn't figure out and for, you know, dealing with like, relationship stuff or whatever where I just didn't understand. And I had this framing of like, you know, and this is something that I feel like insecure guys do a lot is they think they, they do this like, nice guys finish last sort of thing. And, and it's because you identify with your insecurity as being nice and that's not what it is. And, and it's this kind of like this thing for your ego to kind of like defend it so that you don't change. Yeah, it's, you know, you identify. It's coping. It's coping and kind of identifying with those things and this like, pushing off of the responsibility and. Okay, the thing you were talking about, actually this, reconnected it was this. Oh, because there's an exception to the rule. This is not the way it is. It's like, why does it matter? Why are you offended by the fact that it just is. And there's so much about life where, where you just figure out the tr. Like you can just look at what is without having a judgment of it. You know, you can just like look at something. It's like one of the. Everybody on the left says that if you, if you point out a statistic that most crime is done by black people in the United States, is it. That doesn't. There's no judgment attached to that. There's no conclusion there. It's literally just a data point. There's a million different reasons why that might be the case, but you're like, not supposed to even say it. It's like, buddy, you're never going to solve that problem if you can't even just ask why or how this might be. You know, like some people's like, oh, well, the. Oh, it's Just you just think black people are dumb. It's like, well, no, this. Where, where did you come up with this insane elaborate conclusion and belief system attached around a simple data point? And suddenly, suddenly I have to now defend this entire story that you've created in your head. When all we're doing there's welfare causes these certain types of behaviors like this. There's so many different things. Like just treating people differently based on some arbitrary characteristic or condition will create different behaviors in people. And it has nothing to do with what the arbitrary characteristic or condition was. Like. You could just treat people differently based on whether or not they're short or they're tall and probably make tall people and short people behave differently if you just create an environment in which those have different risks and rewards and so like the same thing and like, just like accepting some truth about like finding out that women have a tendency towards one thing or men have a tendency towards one thing, or that men specifically shine like they are aligned with one type of behavior or one type like taking on responsibility. I feel, I can't believe how much energy I put into offloading it into trying to avoid like responsibility and decision making and feeling like it was uncomfortable and how much I enjoy taking it. Now you know how much I've like, I, I like that I get to do this and, and, and when I am being a little bitch again about like I don't. This is a hard decision or I don't know what to do. I like finally getting to the point where I'm like, what is wrong with me? Just decide and move forward. Just take the responsibility. Just figure it out. [01:14:19] Speaker A: If you need help, just call me and I'll just say, stop being a bitch guy. Stop being a bitch. [01:14:24] Speaker B: That's why you need some good guy friends that are not also not bitches. Yeah, very true. [01:14:30] Speaker A: This is, that, that's a whole topic in the book actually. And this is. Yeah, this is part of my. Like I'm giving a talk in Paraguay in a couple of weeks where I'm talking about the sovereign individual is dead and I'm talking about specifically the sovereign tribe. It's like I think we, we got carried away with not only the sovereign individual thesis, but just a lot of the whole libertarian thesis around like, hey, you know, we. Individualism is like, you know, the opposite to collectivism and everything. But I've, I've come to the conclusion that extreme individualism is just as dumb as ext. Collectivism. You know, there's sort of something in the middle there and I Don't know if it's in the middle or if it's like a particular, you know, center of gravity slightly close to the individual on the, on the spectrum. But the, the necessity for guys to be around other good guys and girls to be around other good girls is like we, we had that really well structured all throughout history. We fucked it all up over the last, over the last hundred years when we mixed everything together. And the, you know, the price we're paying for it is that guys are more like women now and women are more like guys and you start to, you start to lose what we were talking about before, the tension. Because what you need for any sort of force or charge to exist is you need e. Polarity. Like you need a positive pole and negative pole. You need a north and a south. You need a day and a night. You need a man and a woman. You need like, you need that. And, and the, the more you kill polarity and you move things towards sameness and similarity, the more you lose the tension and the more you lose the charge. So the thing is not alive anymore. It's, it's not there anymore. I talk about this at length in the book, if you remember. But like this, you know, what you just mentioned. There is like the necessity for guys to just have other good guys around them. And it's, you know, it's one thing to have them on call, but it's even more important to have them in person where you guys can, we can challenge each other, where you can push each other, where you have like that, that sort of brotherhood. And that's something I will say hand on heart. I fucked up in my, in my probably twenties. To some degree. I it up in my twenties, but I really it up in my thirties when I started like really becoming a raging sovereign individualist, traveling the world by myself and all this sort of stuff. Lone wolf, one man show, all this sort of stuff. I really that up because I spent a number of years not building deeper relationships when I should have. And I really felt this when, when I was the only dickhead on the plane getting arrested for not wearing a mask, right? And I would think to myself, I was like, I'm the only guy on here doing this. Like, imagine if there was a group of us, like 5, 10 of us who all just said no thank you, go yourself when asked to put a mask on. No way the they were going to bring cops on to like March 10of us off a flight. Not going to happen. And honestly, what we probably would have done, we probably would have inspired everybody else to do the same. [01:17:38] Speaker B: Yeah, but there were another 30. You didn't want to. [01:17:42] Speaker A: Exactly. And then they, that you would have created a cascade effect. But doing it by yourself, it wasn't, wasn't enough. You know, so here we are like, and I'm sure there was other people like me who would refuse to also comply, but we were isolated. And this is where I think there's sort of a big, a big error in a lot of the thinking around like sort of individualism and everything like that is it. It misses the other parts that bind us together which are really important to establish a collective because you know, a collective is much stronger than the individual on his own and in fact it's more important. And I think you realize that as you start to build a family is that, you know me as a individual dork doesn't matter. Like what actually matters is the, the tribe that I'm putting together, the family that I'm putting together, that's way more important. Like if someone asks me what's more important, the individual or the family, go fuck yourself. The family is way more important. Right. Like it's way more important. Like it doesn't even factor into sort of the same, same galaxy of an equation. So yeah, a lot of this sort of stuff has evolved in my thinking as I've gotten older. [01:18:54] Speaker B: Well, I find it interesting too because in your book, like, I am still a libertarian, but I have very much changed what, how I think about it, like, like why I'm a libertarian. And I think about it less as a, and this makes sense too from, from your perspective. What you're talking about is how many people don't get it. I feel like who, who do think it's about, oh, the individual being the most important thing or the individual being like, like you know, valued over the collective. And what I actually think is it's about having a system of non contradictory rules that allow individuals to find where they are most valuable. It's the freedom to build a collective that's nonviolent, that's, that's non coercive because coercive collectives are ultimately weak. Because in the thinking about like your idea of like governance structures and stuff is those things naturally emerge where people can voluntarily make the decisions and there's still a ton of social weight. It's not as if like, there's no conflict. Like you can't break with your tribe without feeling like you've lost your life. But in the absence of like a coercive, you have to Stay here or we are going to kill you or put you in a cage type thing is you actually have greater free flow for good ideas and good values and good families and good tribes. Um, because we will naturally still end up in a tribe. Um, and anybody who doesn't believe that, spend two minutes on Twitter, like, and. And honestly take a look at it. Like, look at yourself, because you'll realize that that's a nonsense belief. Like, we all end up in a tribe. Um, and the question is, how deep does that tribe go? How much are we actually attached to our tribe? And how much do we realize our value in relation to that? Such that it's good for that group. Such it's good for your people, your family. And I still think we get it wrong a lot. And libertarianism is about the structure of the system that allows these things to evolve and allow these things to emerge, rather than a replacement of them itself. [01:21:09] Speaker A: Yeah, you have a far better, more nuanced definition of it, and it's a far more mature one. I think we should do a whole sort of section in a future episode around some of these things because, like, yeah, there's a bunch to unravel there around, like, what sort of cultural backdrop is necessary in order for something like that to even function? Because if you don't have the sort of. The culture that can sustain it, you might naively think you can put these sort of parameters and structures in place. Um, but then people don't share the correct values and virtues, so they fuck it all up. Right. So there's like. But this is, you know, as you get older, you just realize, man, it's so complicated. It's so fucking complicated. And it's, you know, it's. It's not easy, you know, and there's a reason why sort of, you know, libertarian sort of frameworks have only functioned in, like, sort of small enclaves in particularly homogeneous regions around the world with. [01:22:17] Speaker B: Like, a particular level of cultural homogeneity. [01:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:20] Speaker B: Very culturally tight community for it to actually survive big time. [01:22:24] Speaker A: Big time. And, you know, and, you know, there's like, there's a lot around that stuff which, you know, goes into some fucking minefields which we would need to be careful not to go into in order not to get fucking lambasted. You know, maybe. Maybe we'll have to do like a part on the podcast and part in person. [01:22:39] Speaker B: Be brave, let's say stupid shit. Right? Good. [01:22:44] Speaker A: Oh, man. Anyway, last thing I want to say quickly here before we go to another topic, is there was a. There was the greatest definition of leftism that I ever saw on. On Twitter, actually, that I ever saw anywhere. But it was on Twitter. Was. Do you know. Do you follow Minor Dissent? [01:23:04] Speaker B: Sounds familiar. I think I do. [01:23:06] Speaker A: He's fucking so good, man. I love the guy. He and I've been sort of going back and forth for a long time, but he said something along the lines of, leftism is just people taking revenge against God for making them. And I was like, this is the fucking greatest destination of leftism ever. So we'll leave it at that for the leftists. [01:23:33] Speaker B: You know, that actually reminds me of something you brought up a good long while ago. But. And I wanted to make a comment on. Was stepping back away from that whole thing. It kind of in line with the whole main character thing, right. Is stepping back away from Twitter and Noster and all these things. Because I've. I've done quite a bit of it myself. And I found the healthiest thing that I feel like is not only am I just kind of generally happier because so much of Twitter is just there to make you angry, and I've tried to be really, really good about this anyway. There's been a handful of people in bitcoin that I have a lot of respect for and do a wonderful job of never taking things personally, and I've been much, much better about that recently. I'll still just get in the kind of, like, defiant. I'm going to have, like, a really good response that's going to destroy you or whatever. And then I'll do that twice and be like, this is not going anywhere. Because, like, I'm not reacting. Like, I'm literally getting butt hurt that somebody talked negatively or implied that I was dumb or something like that. Is that, like, this is just Twitter? Like, I don't. This does not matter that much, you know? [01:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:24:49] Speaker B: And. And so I'll, like, try to ease it back and like, reel it in. But is. You know, I've. I've found myself doing a lot of that, though, like, just pulling back away from it. I still post a ton. Just. It's my network, you know, like, it's. It's the audience. You know, I have a show, but I. I like more just kind of letting people be mad or comment or whatever and then just keep going, you know, go to the next one. Like, I'll say something dumber later, like, you know, so be mad about that one as long as you want, but I'll. I'll provide you plenty of content, so don't worry about It. But yeah, it's interesting how that, how that changes. And I hope. I would like to think that the next generation can grow up with some of that, but they have an uphill battle, man. The addiction to social is wild. [01:25:45] Speaker A: So let me say one thing about a comment you just made. The upcoming generation. So the. I think I did a tweet. How dare I? I did a tweet like a month or two ago where I was like, man, Gen Z is cooked. Which was. I. I think some dude was like, walking around with like, glasses that were, like, recording and he was, you know, doing a show and everything like that. And I don't know, I just looked at it. I was like, hell, this is. This is. Yeah, people are losing the ability to kind of like talk to each other as human beings and, you know, everything is sort of a show now. But at the same time, I've actually. Some of the most based sort of young people that I've ever met are actually Gen Z's as well. Now the split gut feel wise feels kind of like 9010 or maybe even 95. 5. Like basically 95% cooked retards and 5%, like super based. But there's just this. There's something here. [01:26:45] Speaker B: 10% is all you need. [01:26:47] Speaker A: 10% is all you need. Exactly. The remnant, right? It feels like there's some corrective mechanism happening because the, the ones who are super based, they're more based than you and I. Like, we're sort of, you know, we think we're hardcore and stuff like that as, as millennials. And, you know, we've sort of woken up on the way to 40. Like, these kids are sort of thinking the same as us, but they're 20s. Like, I look at them now, I was like, hell, man, I wish I sort of had that kind of like, mentality or that sort of knowledge when I was of, like, understanding of the. [01:27:20] Speaker B: Nuance I can go back and rule the world, right? [01:27:23] Speaker A: So this actually feeds into my theory about how the world is going to see the rise of CEO kings and stuff like that. This next generation is going to be ultra powerful. And then their children, the Alphas or whatever the we call the next generation after that is, is going to be kind of like royalty because they're going to have wealth handed down to them from parents like you and I, who were hopefully smart enough to acquire some bitcoin, hang on to it and set them up. I was talking about this with my. With my wife the other day. I was like, man, this little guy is going to have the best upbringing. He's going to have wealth when he grows up. I kind of compare him to how my parents and, you know, my wife sort of grew up in Dominican Republic, super poor and everything. We're kind of like comparing what we had as we were growing up, like, poor and broke and all this sort of shit. Like, with, you know, I had immigrant parents and she had, you know, poor parents living in fucking shithole, backward country and all this sort of thing. We're like, you know, the difference that this kid's gonna have versus us, like, he's gonna be a superstar, but they're gonna be more and more and more like a, like a new nobility. Which feeds into. A lot of the stuff that I was trying to talk about in the book is like, we. We kind of destroyed our nobility with the rise of democracy and modern civilization, and we kind of like burnt everything that was traditional and had, like, longevity so that we could experiment with chopping our dicks off and pretending, you know, guys are girls and girls are guys and every other stupidity that we sort of have seen in the last 20 years in particular. But that's going to swing back the other way big time. And it's very, it's very. It's very promising. I think we're going to move into a world where we see sort of excellence start to be held more and more and more as a North Star. At the same time that safety, comfort and agreeableness will also be held as a North Star by kind of like a. A sheep class. So there's going to be a massive separation between sheep and lions. And I kind of wonder if all of society wasn't like that and that maybe that is like the normal state. [01:29:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's how it is. And what I could see, I could see that. That. That's actually like a common and kind of like deep, consistent thread throughout history. And it's really just a back and forth of who's. Who's kind of like telling the dominant story at any one particular time. And, and maybe this kind of like, like this flux of just like the water shifting back and forth between those kind of like pools or direction of society. [01:30:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a. Anyway, that's a. That's a bigger topic. We can hit that one in a future one when we talk about visions of the future. But I wanted to mention something about what you said on Twitter and sort of this, this attention economy that is like, got us all sucked into our screens, our devices and everything like that. And I've been Thinking more and more about this recently, I'm going to go on a bit of a Atlantis tangent here is, you know, I, in my retardation that you would be familiar with is like, I started this product as one thing and kind of evolved and morphed and, you know, then I sort of had this grand idea of like, building a social network for sovereign individuals and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, have come to realize that I was on crack, probably every flavor of crack on, on the planet possible, thinking that I was going to compete in the attention economy because Noster or whatever fucking stupidity I'd convinced myself of. And I've sort of come to realize that there is no competing in the attention economy. Like TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, they're unbeatable, they're unbeatable. At least for the next 10 or 20 years. No fucking way. That's sort of like we're going to compete against that and try and capture attention, because attention is very expensive. And what I've realized is at the same time, there's this sort of emerging movement of people who are tired of just giving their attention to these applications, particularly our generation, the millennials, because we're the ones that are coming into now. We are, we are becoming the dominant generation because we are starting to, you know, come to the age where we've accumulated enough wealth, where we've accumulated enough networks and we've accumulated enough reputation to start to be. Get into positions of power. And now us millennials are sort of tired. We're like, fuck it, bro. You know, I'm not going to get the next TikTok and sit there and dance in front of a fucking screen or whatever. Like, you know, that's for the kids. They're going to do that. And the attention economy is there. Yeah, I'm actually now interested more and more and more in the experience economy. Like, I want to do things in the real world. I want to, you know, I. I want the physical relationship, I want the tribe. I want something. Like, I want to go and spend some sats flying to a beautiful place and, you know, flying well in business class and going and staying at a beautiful hotel or at a beautiful Airbnb and experiencing a different part of the world. Like, you know, the wife and I plan to do something not next year, but in when, when our babies, just before turning 2 in 2027, we're gonna go spend three months in Japan, and I'm going to spare no expense. I'm gonna go and actually enjoy it and live it and actually experience Japan. And I'm not gonna do it in a way where I'm like posting my food and like that on Instagram like a dork. Right? Like, I'm going to actually go in and live it and experience it. So, anyway, long way of saying I've rethought about what I want to do with Atlantis, which is I want to build for the experience economy. I want to build something that is no longer about the content you post, but about the. The an app that helps you get off your screen. And that sounds really cryptic and stupid, but what I'm trying to say here is we've narrowed down. Like, Lance is just going to be eventbrite with bitcoin payments and a bit of a social layer so you can see who your friends are going to an event. But I see events as the kind of the tip of the spear for the experience economy. And you've already seen this starting to happen. Is like, there have been almost double the number of events in 2025 as they were in 2019. And when I say events, I mean really. Yeah, bro. It's insane. Like, the comeback has been massive. [01:34:09] Speaker B: Like, really holy. I didn't know about this. [01:34:13] Speaker A: Massive, dude. Meetups, retreats. [01:34:15] Speaker B: That's a huge trend shift. [01:34:17] Speaker A: The massive trend shift because people are tired of being locked down over the last couple of years, number one. And number two, I think everyone's just getting whiplash from being online. Dude. Yeah, like, everyone wants to sort of start to connect now in real life again and do stuff. And it sort of hit me while I was sitting there around with like, hey, you know, we've got Atlantis that does this and there's a social piece and this is. And I was like, there is no bitcoin native events app that just does a good job where you can spin up an event and with the event comes a bitcoin wallet. And you can monetize your event if you want to immediately. Like, yeah, that doesn't exist. And what if I can also apply a social layer to it? So if I can see that, hey, I'm connected to guy, or I'm connected to someone, you know, your brother, for example, and he's running an event and you're going. It's like, hey, that should come up as a recommended event for me. [01:35:12] Speaker B: Top of my list. [01:35:13] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So, like, the discovery experience start to get. Starts to get really interesting and the monetization experience start to get really interesting. And the more I dug into this, I realized also, like eventbrite and Luma for example, I think Luma is the best events app in the world at the moment. Unfortunately, it's run by shitcoiners, so you can connect your Solana Wallet if you want. But these apps are literally bound by where you can as a host, not as an attendee, but as a host who can accept fiat payments, which is basically 15% of the world. [01:35:48] Speaker B: The rest. [01:35:48] Speaker A: So there's no actual global events, apparently. So if you enable Bitcoin payments into an events app, anybody, anywhere in the world can run an events app. Sorry, can run an event and get paid for it. Which is a. I'm just shocked that that a. I'm pissed off that that didn't hit me sooner. But to be. I'm kind of shocked that that doesn't actually exist, like a good mechanism for doing that. And then obviously, furthermore, the ability to have that social sort of glue, so. So we're kind of rethinking about how we use Nostr now. I don't think Nostra can succeed, not for the short to medium term, as a content play. [01:36:23] Speaker B: Grab that threat, because we just. Recently I read your piece, the Hard Truths about Nostr or whatever, and I really, really like that one. And I had a bunch of good feedback on Noster in response to that. Like, he's like, this is what we need to be thinking sober about this. You know, all of that stuff. And so what do you mean when you specifically say, as a content, like funnel or whatever? Like, like competing for attention. Competing for attention. Yeah. Okay. And you don't think. You don't think Noster can do that? [01:36:57] Speaker A: Not. Not now. Not now, man. Yeah, it just. It's too early. And the other platforms are just too addictive, man. Instagram is just too fucking good. X is just too good. TikTok is just too damn good at what they do. You know, maybe, you know, if some Nostra company had a couple hundred million dollars up their sleeve to really, like, literally pay the best creators in the world to come across. Yeah. Which is part of how TikTok actually grew. A lot of people don't realize, but TikTok went in and paid fucking creators. They. They created the American dream on a digital platform where creators came and made a shitload of money and they had this lost leader sort of set up for. For a number of years until they built up that critical mass. We don't have that. And I experienced this really, like, it hit me like a ton of bricks when we went outside of the bitcoin community and tried to get people to Download the app and post content. We went to the Nomad community, this and that, and all these other places like Health and Longevity, and they came, they posted a bit, they got like four or five followers and they're like, yeah, this, I'm back on Instagram. And, and look, this is not to take away from what people like, Primal and everything. Primal's doing a fantastic job, like, and I think they are by far the best content centric feed centric product in Noster. And in fact, to that degree, I also think that the social graph is shared. I actually don't see a need for there to be multiple Nostra clients that are doing content and feed, because if I'm going to see the same fucking content on Primal, Damas, Amethyst, Atlantis, differentiation is there among these products. So I think that was a big oversight amongst the Nostra crowd, is that we're going to have multiple clients all showing you social content. Like, that's kind of retarded. I think there's going to be one winner in that space. So we kind of found ourselves stuck between Instagram and Incumbents on one side and Primal on the other. We're like, well, what the fuck are we playing the content game for? You kind of like threw that out. And I want to play the context game, which is here is a fucking awesome tool to spin up an event, monetize the event, but also build a community around every event that you create. Because every time you create an event, the attendees, you know, followers, friends, you. [01:39:16] Speaker B: Know, have followers, you know how. Yeah. [01:39:17] Speaker A: You're building, you're building your audience, you're building a community as you run events. So you don't have to be a content creator. You can be an event host and be a great one at that. [01:39:26] Speaker B: You're attaching, you're attaching the, the digital network to the physical events, to physical experience. [01:39:34] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. [01:39:35] Speaker B: That's interesting. And I love that you. Actually, I've been thinking about the thing you just an app that points you to something in the real world or whatever. An app that doesn't point you to an app or whatever. Is that the way you said that? I was, I was first. It was like a very, you know, fortune cookie thing. [01:39:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:53] Speaker B: But I thought about like, what that actually meant. And it's funny because, you know, Twitter is actually designed. You think about all these Instagram, everything it's designed to, whenever something engages you is to point you back around to the next post, to point you back around to the next enraging comment, to point you. It's supposed to loop you in. You're supposed to fall into it and then fall into this loop that keeps you moving the feed and continually engaging and moving the feed and continually engaging. And it's actually powerful to have like this idea that the, the experience in the real world would actually build that, that digital network. And when you go to the app, the app points you back to something in the real world that allows you to connect to people again in the digital network. You know, and, and the fact that I can't believe, I just can't believe I had no idea that that statistic. I'm gonna have to, you got to share me something. If there's like a write up or whatever on it about the number of events doubling what was in 2019, because like that's a huge deal like that. I have not heard that. But if that's true and that's on trend, like that's the biggest, that's the next big opportunity, wherever it's going, you know, in five years, if that, if that stays, if this is literally a swing back in the opposite direction of the, of that everybody's just in the digital and everybody's on the X pendulum. Yep, yep. That's an unserved market. That's a completely unserved market. [01:41:24] Speaker A: Very much so. Very much so. And I mean, you can probably feel it instinctually by looking at just the number of bitcoin events that happen now versus 2019. 2019, what were there, like four conferences in the world? Now there's how many? Like 150 now. Obviously like that same growth hasn't happened elsewhere because, you know, bitcoin has benefited from bitcoin events growing as well. But man, there's like retreats now, communities that, you know, run sort of like creator houses and all. Like, so, so when I say events, I'm counting all of that stuff that has kind of emerged post, post sort of like lockdown era, post pandemic era. It's very encouraging. Like, I, I, I think of it as kind of imagine the experience economy is where travel intersects with events and intersects somewhat with the creator economy. Like the sort of the middle between that is what I'm calling the experience economy. And God damn it, I'm coining this fucking term. It's like this to me is like the frontier that I'm sort of interested in now. And it gets me juiced up because now I can build something that is about getting people off their goddamn phones. And it keeps me off it as well. Because before when I was thinking About Atlantis. I was like, oh, you know, I want to be a public figure and all this sort of stuff because, hey, you know, who's the founder of Twitter? You know? Right. Jack Dorsey, who's the founder of Facebook, you know, what's his name? Fucking Zuckerberg. The robot. [01:42:54] Speaker B: Yeah, the robot. [01:42:56] Speaker A: Who's the founder of meetup.com guy. Tell me. [01:43:01] Speaker B: I actually did know this. [01:43:02] Speaker A: Oh, you didn't. Fuck you. [01:43:03] Speaker B: Okay. [01:43:04] Speaker A: You're not supposed to know. [01:43:05] Speaker B: But no, I don't. I don't. I don't remember anymore. [01:43:07] Speaker A: But like, that to me is really interesting because it aligns with the stage of life where I want to be, which is I want to be behind the scenes. This. So. So there's a lot of compelling stuff here for me. [01:43:20] Speaker B: The only reason I knew it is because it actually recently came up. It was some meetup and Patreon and I did this little, like, rabbit hole dig, but otherwise I would have no idea. [01:43:27] Speaker A: Okay. There you go. Yeah. So you. Okay. [01:43:29] Speaker B: For the sake of your. For the sake of your demonstration, screw you. [01:43:37] Speaker A: So anyway, that's. I know that's a bit of a random tangent, a bit of a Lanta shill, but anyway, that's my. That's my rethinking about how I'm trying to reprioritize my life, my business, what I want to do at this next stage, how I'm thinking about the world more broadly as well, and also just, you know, really like, it aligns with a lot of what I said in Bushido, which is like, hey, let's go and actually inculcate these virtues by living a better life and doing things in the real world, because that's where you actually forge character, not in just the virtual world. The virtual world can forge elements of character, but it's like the difference between theory and practice. You know, it helps if you read a book about something beforehand because it can kind of give you some insight, but until you actually do the shit, you don't know. And that's sort of the difference between the online world and the real world, in my opinion. [01:44:36] Speaker B: Now that's. That's definitely something that I feel like you hit really well in the book, is that recognizing that these, especially in the context of. Because you. You bring up this idea of, like, overture signaling that has become such a horrible, ridiculous simulacrum of whatever the. What real virtue actually is, and where you just get behind a keyboard and you say, I do this. And I think this. And this is how I am. And to recognize that there is no such thing as courage, justice, respect. Like you go through the, the list, these only exist in action like that. You can't, you can't say these. And then that means that you have them, you know, like there's no way to demonstrate them by talking about how you demonstrate them. You can only demonstrate them in action. They are, they are explicitly things that you, you have to decide at the point in which it matters to make a decision one way or the other. And I found that, I found that really interesting. Just because there's probably like, I mean, you just say virtues or whatever. Like there'd be like this heavy misconception around a lot of people. Probably just because of the tainted definition or frame that it gets carried. The context is like terrible. [01:46:02] Speaker A: Yeah, totally, man. Yeah, that's such a, such a good point, man. Like the difference between doing and talking. And that's another thing. It's another perversion of the digital world where so much of our lives now are kind of centered around the digital that we've over indexed on the importance of talk overdoing. And look, that doesn't take away from those who both talk and do, because they certainly exist. It's just, I guess they are probably the most rare. But I've also just come to appreciate more and more the person who is just the doer, but without the talking. I always aspire to be the talker and the doer, but I care less and less about being the talker now. And maybe that'll change again. Maybe in five years time I want to write another book or whatever. I'll come into my talker mode again. But I just, I don't know, I just find so much more juice right now in life in doing some stuff like going to my jiu jitsu class, hitting the gym, you know, looking for the land like we've been looking for land here to build this little wellness retreat area. And like working on the product with the guys and like, you know, pivoting and cutting things out of the product and they're like, yep, fuck it, we built this. But we spent six months fucking around with the feed and making it good and everything. We're killing it. We're going here. This is what we're doing. Like all this, like, makes me feel so much better than going out there and talking about it. [01:47:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [01:47:40] Speaker A: It's an interesting evolution. [01:47:43] Speaker B: Got to ask something that I just thought about. So when I open up Satlantis this most recent time and we have our chat or whatever, I was like, oh, this is cool, like, because I, I could immediately see how I would make use of it. And then I also immediately thought, oh, I could post for like a couple of my favorite places here because there was like only like one thing in the entire, like Raleigh Durham area. And I have a bunch of different places that I could recommend or talk about. And then I, I didn't post any of it and I got to, I, I was thinking about like, how do you, how do you drive? How do you pull back to, to get that connection? Because it feels like I'm going in to go leave a Yelp review that I know, like somebody else might find really valuable. But like, who the hell just was like, oh, it's the time of day to go leave Yelp reviews. Let me, let me go open it up. And you know, it's like four and a half stars. You know, like when, when I'm. The context that I'm usually sharing it in is something social. Right? So, so I'm like wondering how do you think about connecting the experience? Because it would be different if I go to, let's say, found like one of my favorite places, which is like, no see oils. It's all like totally healthy food and it's not on any of those. Like, it's hard to find in like a seed oil free or like a bitcoiner place. And I know they're bitcoiners because they know me. They're like, guy, what's up? Did you see that bitcoin price? Yeah. Doing good today, right, buddy? And they even mentioned about like, when square launches, they'll probably take bitcoin. They'll, they'll, you know, have it turned on and using it. But you know, when I would maybe share something, it would be like I would go and, you know, take a picture of. In the social environment, right? You go take a picture of your food and you're like, this is some cool. I got it found. Is that how do you connect that experience to Satlantis So that when I do that, I'm sharing it on Noster, but I'm doing it for. I'm, I'm quote, unquote, leaving my review for Satlantis at the same time. You know what I mean? [01:49:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a, it's a complicated thing, which is why we kind of deprioritize that for events and we're going to come back to this stuff later. So this actually what you're describing there still fits under the banner of an app for the experience economy, because you're Talking about a place in the real world. So and sort of we ultimately want the product to be about people, places and events. Right. But what we figured is that we can't do all of it at once, number one. And number two, it kind of confuses the, the nature of the product. So events first, we, we focus on that. We will keep a basic activity feed in the app which will be a little bit more like remember when Facebook had the wall back in the day and it was like, hey, you know, Guy Swan is going to this event or you know, someone thumbed up this, you know, post or something like that. So it's more of an activity feed, less of a content feed. It'll still contain content from people you follow, but we're not going to ingest it. Everything from Nostr like we've been doing to date. It'll be more like, okay, Guy just added this place to the, you know, for seed oil free and he tagged it with seadawl free. Right. So I would see that because I follow you and then I might click on that place and then I might add it to my bookmarks, to my collections for my top seed. All places in the, in the future. So we've, we've sort of like focused in on two functional features for places as a pillar in the app and that is discover. So you can add places really easy. So we're plugged into the Google API there. You add it. We then have a series of AI bots that go out, scour the Internet and create a profile for that place. So it's on there, you don't have to add pictures, you don't have to do shit like it's all created. So in 24 hours you'll see a beautiful profile for the place that you added. It says discovered by Guy. So then that informs the social context. So that if I'm in the future, let's say I come to Raleigh for example and I open up the map, I will most likely, let's say there's 500 places there. I will see the places that you have discovered before somebody else because you and I are connected. So discovered there's also collected by which is how many people have bookmarked this place. And once again that was influenced also by my, by my social graph. We were also going to have recommended by and recommended is like an actual thumbs up or thumbs down. But that is just something we've deprioritized for the time being and we'll come back to it later. But you can discover and you can collect. So they're the two things. So it's like bookmarking and discovery and there's social context in both of those that is associated to the place on the map. Yeah, when we roll out the wallet, we will probably throw some incentives around, give people some stats for discovering cool places. So that way there's like incentive for people to go out there and actually discover cool places. There may be also a longer term incentive for, let's say two or three years from now when we re enable the, and we put some focus on the places element of the business where maybe we build out proper like merchant profile pages where they get like an interactive map, the ability to do online orders and you know, paying bitcoin and all this sort of stuff. Maybe we can build that out and just have a, a membership version of it where they pay 10 bucks a month or 20 bucks a month to have that Solantis profile. And let's say guy discovered this place and they later claim their profile and they do that maybe Guy can make $2 a month in sats in perpetual income for having discovered that place. [01:53:18] Speaker B: That's interesting, dude. Sharing and monetizing the crowd, man, it is the most untapped thing in the whole world. [01:53:25] Speaker A: Really? Is it really? [01:53:26] Speaker B: It is so freaking untapped because, and you know, it's worth billions of dollars because it's exactly what X and Instagram and all of these other companies do. They, they just, they leech it. They, they farm us for this data rather than having a system that actually monetizes it directly to the people. And that, that could just be freaking huge if you can figure out how to monetize it directly to the person. Not only do you get better data, but you get the, the network builds itself to get people in because you're getting paid instead of, you know, being sucked to drive all of your data and being purposefully trapped into this, you know, app loop. [01:54:08] Speaker A: There's lots and lots and lots of potential there. Yeah, but, but as I said, like we, we need to get, we need to get a threshold of people into the product. And events are so good because you're not onboarding people one by one. You're, you're onboarding communities and networks at once, like if you're a host. So like you guys said, you have one of the oldest meetups, right? In. [01:54:29] Speaker B: Oldest. Still running meetup out there. There you go, O'Reilly Bitcoin meetup. [01:54:33] Speaker A: Are you guys running that on meetup.com for example? [01:54:36] Speaker B: Steve has been, and I believe it's still on just meetup.com. yeah. [01:54:40] Speaker A: All right, well we need to heal you of your sins and we need to get you guys off there. And basically we, we, we basically have feature parity with Meetup.com right now so you can sweet spin up your meetup and you can host it there. You can add co hosts. It's, you know, it's a noster event as well, which is beautiful. And by the end of this month you'll be able to attach a bitcoin wallet to that event so that if you want, for example, you could, you know. You know one of the things that used to piss me off when I ran the Brisbane bitcoin meetup was I would create a meetup and I would be like, okay, registration, 30 people capacity. And then a bunch of dickheads who weren't going to come just RSVP and used up all the capacity. So then I have to like manage wait lists and shit like that. What if you could just have like 100 sats as like the RSVP fee so that you know, people thought twice about, you know, RSVPing if they're not going to make it. [01:55:30] Speaker B: Right. [01:55:31] Speaker A: So like you could do all this sort of interesting stuff by associating a. [01:55:35] Speaker B: Bitcoin and you could have it that you got your RSVP feedback with a QR code. That's at the, at the event. Yeah. [01:55:42] Speaker A: So anywho, that's where we're starting. And the idea is that you will also be able to attach places and collections to the event. So this is really like we're going to partner with some conferences between now and the end of the year. When people go to conferences, what are they asking? [01:55:56] Speaker B: They're always looking for where the bitcoin place is. Where is that taco place that does the. Oh my God, yes. [01:56:02] Speaker A: So now you have the collection which you can attach to the event. So now people have the event, they have the community on the event. They can rsvp, they can pay for the ticket, they can save their event to their own itinerary of collection. So, so we have this calendar feature that is live in there. So you know when you go to a conference, you don't know which of the side events you're going to go to. Here you can RP to the side events and build your own personal calendar and you have your collection so it's, it's all in there. So again, experience economy, it's the whole thing get people into the real world and you know, you can, you can share your activity with the world if you want, or you can share it just with your mutuals, or you can keep it completely private. That's the, that's the big sort of reinvention or, or I shouldn't even call it a reinvention. It's like the narrowing down of Atlantis into the things that matter more. [01:56:54] Speaker B: And yeah, I would say narrowing down because I think everything that y' all originally tackled is actually something to come back to. [01:57:03] Speaker A: Yes. [01:57:03] Speaker B: But I think that Noster is kind of. Your piece on Noster, I thought was like a really great thing, and it's something that I've seen or come to the conclusion a lot recently as well, is that this is a much bigger shift that will take a lot longer totally than I originally saw it. And way, way, way more has to change. It's very much like realizing that you can have an app for everything and everybody could be connected to the Internet all the time in like 1998. But the iPhone came out in 2009. You know, is that like. It was not until the iPhone that so many. There were a billion brilliant ideas about the Internet and about what you could do with it and all of these things that you could build. But literally 90% of it wasn't possible until the mobile revolution. And it wasn't until after 2009 that it was like, oh, and people who built brilliant ideas and brilliant examples of some of these things saw their ideas fail. They. They literally died on the vine. And then somebody revived them in 2012 and 2013. And they work. They. They exploded because they had the pieces in place, the network in place, the devices in place that actually made it viable. They were seeing too far out and building too far out. And that's why I like the idea of narrowing because there's an enormous amount of potential in this. And I can easily see a day where, you know, there's events on Satlantis or whatever and I go to a thing. We just went to a concert, right? We just went to my wife and sister and I, my sister in law. We all went to twenty one Pilots concert, which was a blast. It was so much fun. I got tons of different video and bunch of stuff happen. And you know, the drummer comes out and he's like 10, 20ft away from us in like the aisle, doing the drumming on top of the thing. And it's like. So we got like a bunch of cool video and a bunch of stuff and people are posting about it all on Instagram, right? What, what. I can so easily see this where I go to the event or 20 One Pilots concert in Satlantis. And then I'm pulling up all the posts of the concert that you went to recently and you're just showing me I'm seeing real experiences, not just like somebody who had the time to review it or somebody who you know is being paid to put fake reviews up. I'm getting the network that I trust and their actual experience and, and relationship to this. I'm get. I'm getting a high integrity take on what this event is, why I should care about it and who, who in my circles, who do I know that also loves this or found something meaningful and that. I don't know that it's really cool. I've, I've really felt that like Satlantis really has something. There's so many like, there's like three or four little projects like this that I'm just like, man, like something, something needs to catch. Something needs to catch because like there's so much growth potential in these things. [02:00:09] Speaker A: Well, let's go and kill eventbrite and meetup.com. dude, let's, let's start there. Let's. [02:00:12] Speaker B: I'm down with that. [02:00:13] Speaker A: And losers. And then, and then we can start to. Then, then we'll take out Yelp and then we'll take out TripAdvisor and like. [02:00:19] Speaker B: We start low, start with the easy. Nobody's. Nobody's attached to meetup.com nobody, nobody's got like, nobody's like gotta go to X to post for my ex on Twitter buddies or whatever. As long as like I gotta go to meet up. Everybody on Meetup is the coolest. [02:00:33] Speaker A: Totally, man, totally. It's like a universally hated product. So let's, let's blow their asses out of water and like. Yeah, man. 100. [02:00:44] Speaker B: Yeah. We're at, we're at two hours and we didn't even really cover the origins. What I, what I wanted to give me, give me a rundown because, because we're going to be covering a lot more and for anybody who doesn't know, we're going to be doing like a bunch of episodes on this because there's just an enormous amount to unpack. And all of it is like this, this. It's, it's very like deep into what it means to be a father, what it means to have a family, what it means to actually be a brother to someone, you know, like, like to have your tribe. And, and then I know Svensky and I will probably go back and forth. I know you're on governance and Stuff because you have especially the. And in fact, I'll leave this just as a tag as. As a teaser so that people will be, like, burning like weight. What is the virtue of war? Is the idea of, like, war as. As. As a very different thing than what modernity has created in. In this kind of, like, shallow. Press a button and eviscerate people from the earth. Like, what is. What is war? In the context of, like, genuine conflict and, like, respectful conflict between men. Like, that's. That was one of the most interesting things about the book to me is because it was so completely different than my framing coming in. So it was. It was really fun to unpack and try to square some circles and vice versa. [02:02:16] Speaker A: So. [02:02:18] Speaker B: Maybe then the best way to. To kick off the fact that we're going to come back and we'll be talking about these other things is. Why'd you write the book? [02:02:29] Speaker A: Okay, great. Great one. So I wrote the book. Initially, I started writing the book because I felt that there was this emergent sort of code amongst bitcoiners. But then as I kept writing the book, I realized that that wasn't necessarily true. Along the way, I met a bunch of people who are bitcoiners that were more after they found bitcoin. And then I met a bunch of people who are not bitcoiners, who are, like, really, really, really, like, amazing people with strong character. And I was like, wait a minute. So bitcoin doesn't fix you? So then it kind of like destroyed the thesis of the. The first version of the book. And then as. As the book evolved, it was actually. I wrote it for myself, man. I wrote it for. As a reminder to myself that character is like, capital is nothing without character. And the. We're put on this planet for whatever reason you believe, but ultimately to build character. And I think character is sort of the. The. The thing that makes us unique and the thing that makes us remembered, the thing that makes us who we are, the thing that we carry to the next life or whatever you believe in. But I think character is really important. So it was. It was a reminder to myself of the importance of character and character being made up of these key virtues. So ultimately, yeah, for myself, this was something that I wanted to write. This is something that I wanted to read and that I wanted to learn about and ultimately decided to write. [02:04:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I've come to the conclusion maybe in older age, that the only really great things you build are the things you build for yourself. And I think it probably has a lot to do with, you know, I watched and read so many of, like, being an entrepreneur and like, how to, you know, go out on your own. It was always like, find other people who have problems and find out what their problems are and find out how to serve them and all this stuff. And I've steered so much away from that. I mean, that's, that's a good framing to how to think about it. But you're never going to build great for someone else because you're not. You don't. You don't know what that problem means for them. Yeah, but you do know what your problems are. You do know what it means for you, for your fam. Like, build things that solve major problems for your life, for. For everything that matters to you, because you'll have more motivation than anything else in actually completing it. And this, this is literally why, like, I'm. I'm finally writing a book. And part of it has to do with two things. One, do you want me to read it for you? [02:05:24] Speaker A: I'm kidding. [02:05:25] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. I need an audiobook. [02:05:32] Speaker A: The audiobook will basically be like reading a sentence and then say, and then reading other sentences and then you basically be just like square word for like three hours or ten hours. Sorry, continue. [02:05:43] Speaker B: But very much I have to give credit where credit is due to Bushido. Bitcoin is the. The very. The call to action. The. The like do something. You know, like, like there are things that you want to do, there are things that you've been trying to do, like just get up and do them. And then something that is also briefly talked about in the book, but we talked about earlier on in the episode is really about saying yes to something is about saying no to everything else. And that was like a big thing. And I've got a 2sats video that I'll be posting soon. I've already. I pretty much finished I have to do like subtitle. But is. It's. It's a bit about time and regret is what it's titled. But it's about the fact that I realized that everything that I actually accomplished, all the things that I really genuinely did and completed almost universally I explained explicitly, said I was not going to do this other thing that I was already doing. I was going to take that time away and I was going to replace it with this thing that I wanted to do and only then does it actually get completed. And if, if I explicitly make the trade off of this is the time that is already taken and this is where it's now going to Go. And I'm just going to stop doing this thing. And it's actually flipped. I found exactly that thing with the book and I'm like, okay, I'm. I'm simply not doing this anymore. It's one of the big reasons I've pulled away from social media is, you know, time that usually is devoted to that has been diverted. And sooner or later, I'd like to think it could be done by the end of this year, but I doubt it. It's a slow slog, but. But it's moving. [02:07:25] Speaker A: Take your time, my friend. Take your time and just make it a quality work. And I look forward to reading this. You know, there's. You're one of the people I genuinely respect and have, like, a lot of admiration for in the bitcoin space, man. Seriously, since. Since we. Since we met in San Francisco. No, I'm serious, man. You know, there's like, there's a bunch of people that I used to like that I don't like anymore and all that sort of shit. You're like one of the. One of the. The people's like, I read your article. I'll. I'll never forget. [02:07:56] Speaker B: I read your article. Don't you remember? [02:08:02] Speaker A: I'll never forget that. Honestly, that's how. [02:08:04] Speaker B: That's how I met Svensky. For anybody, he's wondering. I came up to him. I recognized him at the conference and I came up to him. I read your article because I'd done. Done it early on the show. Oh, man. [02:08:16] Speaker A: Fucking classic. So, yeah, man, I look forward to reading what you've done and listening to it as well. [02:08:23] Speaker B: Hell yeah, man. [02:08:24] Speaker A: And you know what? I actually look forward to listening to Bushido bitcoin because I haven't listened to it yet because you haven't fucking sent me the final file. So can you please do that? [02:08:31] Speaker B: Wait, really? [02:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think you ended up sending me, like, the completed piece. You uploaded it to Audible, so I have to buy my own book. [02:08:42] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [02:08:43] Speaker A: To help Smith afford his own Audible. [02:08:45] Speaker B: I'll get it to you. Wait, have you not listened to the fiction part yet? [02:08:48] Speaker A: No, I haven't. I haven't listened to the whole. [02:08:50] Speaker B: Oh, my God. I did. I'm so. I'm so proud of that. I'm so proud of that one. I. I had a ton of fun with the editing and I wanted so bad I had to turn down Lynn Alden's. I hope. I think Walker and Walker and Carla are going to do it, but I really hope they put in the Time and they do like the audio editing. In fact, I'd be willing to actually help and give them pointers because I had so much fun. It's so much work to do that for eviction. But it just. It's. God, it's like. It's an ear movie, you know, like. And that was a really fun section of the book. So short. It needed to be longer, but. Dude. [02:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I know, I know. I saw parts of your feedback. To me, we. That will be a passion project when I get some time to do and I want to extend that. And I will be contracting you as my, I don't know, sidekick, editor, something to help me like elaborate on that. Because there's a fucking story there. So for everyone listening, like maybe start the book with that story. Like, go get the audible and start the book with that story. You'll fucking love it. And it'll leave you like wanting more. And then you go read the rest of the book. [02:09:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, dude, we'll have to get the next one scheduled 100%. Thanks for coming on. [02:10:05] Speaker A: We'll go into each of the things. Definitely. I'm going to go take care of him now. It's his. It's his shower time, so. And he loves doing shower time with daddy, so I gotta jump in there and do that. So. Thank you so much, dude, as usual. Love these conversations. Talk soon. [02:10:19] Speaker B: Later, dude. [02:10:20] Speaker A: Peace. [02:10:23] Speaker B: All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Also, don't forget to check out if you haven't yet, have a lot of great feedback with the episode we did with Jimmy Song recently. We talked mostly about the opera turn filter and stuff. But it was really just kind of about the disconnect between core and the users and the. The politics that has arisen and how it is likely to affect a lot of these issues and the network and ossification and all of that stuff itself. So I had a lot of good feedback on that one. So we will put that down in the show notes as well. Huge shout out to Tvetsky always. Don't forget to check out the Bushido of Bitcoin now both book and audiobook available. I'll have that link down in the show notes and we are going to have him back on for a number of different episodes on a number of different topics going through this book. So stay tuned. Don't forget to subscribe. Don't forget to share it out with everybody you know. This is Bitcoin Audible. This is brought to you by Ledenledn IO pubkey app. Getchroma Co and the HRF and their Financial Freedom Report. Shout out to all of them for great products and services and for being awesome bitcoiners and supporting Bitcoin Audible as well. So don't forget links, goodies, references, all the stuff we talked about and if there's anything not I can add it in later. Feel free to message me or leave a comment and I'll make sure it gets in the description that is there for you to check out and I will catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin Audible. Until then, guys, that's our two sets. Sam.