Chat_161 - Bitcoin is Tangible with Cade Peterson

[00:00:00] Speaker A: That's the main reason I like doing this bitcoin stuff so much, because it's connected to the real world. It's proof of work. Like I. I can't sit on my computer and come up with a more logical code base or a different way to attack and get more bitcoin. I've got to actually go out there and create something, some physical thing, and if I don't do that, it doesn't work right. So it is, it is proof of work at the most fundamental level and I love it. [00:00:52] Speaker B: What is up, guys? Welcome back to the show. This is Bitcoin audible. I am Guy. So I'm the guy who has read more about bitcoin than anybody else. You know, we've got an awesome conversation today. So I bumped into a thread at some point a few weeks, a month ago, something like that, with SoftWarm LLC of some fascinating things that Cade, our guest here, was doing building bitcoin mining systems for Heat, including a jacuzzi, a car wash, a pool, one that I learned in this episode, a cement plant. You're going to be blown away by some of the things that he's put together. And it's such a fascinating conversation. I've always been engrossed with the Heat punk concept and where things were going in the bitcoin space, especially as both the hardware and and infrastructure mature over time. I immediately just wanted to get him on the show and I reached out to him and I'm very glad we did. We had an awesome conversation, a quick shout out to the HRF for supporting my work and for the Oslo Freedom Forum. This will be June 1st to 3rd this year and it is one of the most powerful places to meet freedom fighters from around the world and hear their stories and the tools to help bring us into a better future. They also do the Financial Freedom Report, which is one of my favorite newsletters. I just recently read one of them on the show. Links to both are right down in the show notes and specifically if you use my link, it's a really great way to support the show. That's totally free for you and a huge thank you to them for sponsoring the show. One of the things that I really love about this idea and the conversation that we got into is how real bitcoin is in the world, that there are machines, there are real machines, there is raw energy, there is real infrastructure and just being used in such creative ways. And I won't lead anymore. Let's go ahead and get into today's episode. This is chat161 bitcoin is tangible with Kade Peterson. Dude, just in general. Welcome to the show, man. Like, it's. It's really awesome. I can't believe that I didn't really know about softwarm and your account and stuff. And I. I think I had come across maybe a post of yours at some point because one or two of them I had recognized or like, felt like I remembered hearing a story about or had a conversation about. But I just saw some of your stuff recently. There was the. The. What was it? The hot tub and stuff. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Well, I'm working on a hot tub right now. I haven't completed it, but what we're doing is working on a central heat core home. And the whole home's heated with 2s 19k pros immersion tank. And that fluid loop also is going to a couple heat exchangers. And we found a hot tub on that someone was getting rid of. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Essentially. So it's actually pretty easy to integrate and we've made a lot of progress on it, but it's not operational yet and it will be. It's just kind of frozen outside where I'm at. And so I need. I need it to warm up a little bit so I can lay out the pipe and glue it all together and, you know, and then also if the system goes down while we're working on it, it's not going to cool the house off, so. Yeah. But they're using the heat right now full time. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Sweet. So I want to start off before we get into it, because for anybody who doesn't know you run Software LLC which is fully dedicated to bitcoin as heat is bitcoin mining for heat in all its various applications. But I'm curious when, you know, one thing that I was actually talking about this with Hodl, Tarantula and mechanic at the conference of the Plan B conference in El Salvador a week ago, is that I think we get so lost in technical and protocol discussions and stuff, we forget how many boots and hammers there are in bitcoin to actually keep the network secure. And I'm curious what your background is, because I have. I have my own history in boots and hammers. And I'm curious, like, where you came from and how quickly did you kind of dive down this rabbit hole when you found bitcoin and what was kind of your relationship to it when you first saw it? [00:05:37] Speaker A: Oh, thanks for asking, man. Like, not a lot of people ask me that question, but it is relevant. So I was in the air force for 20 years on active duty. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Okay. [00:05:48] Speaker A: And so I was an aircraft mechanic, was what they call a flying crew chief. And I worked on the aerial refuelers, the KC10s and the KC 135s. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Okay. [00:05:58] Speaker A: And so I had to fly with the aircraft and go to different countries all over the world, you know. And then you get there and the plane breaks and you gotta fix it and then you gotta get on the plane, right? [00:06:13] Speaker B: Oh, shit's broken now I gotta get on it and fly good at my job, bro. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Did you do it right? Yeah, well, you know, I guess we'll find out, you know. [00:06:21] Speaker B: Hey, skin in the game. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. For real. And there's a lot of responsibility for me, you know, as a 18 year old kid getting trained up. And then by, really, by the time I was 21, I was 20, 21 years old, I was flying and responsible for those kind of things. And then later on in my career I got selected for some special duty jobs. So I worked directly for the secretary at the Air Force and chief of staff of the Air Force. I was one of their, or the maintenance superintendent, lead mechanic. And so for four years I flew around with the boss. And then I ended up going and doing some other things in the Air Force before I retired, which gave me a little more insight. But I really kind of honed in. I learned a lot about aircraft maintenance and I do have an airframe and power plant license, which is a FAA license to work on airplanes. I'm also a pilot, but I don't fly for work. I just wanted to get my private pilot's license to make sure I knew what it was like, right? [00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Round, get rounded experience. So I did that stuff. I rebuilt cars. I used to be a certified car mechanic. It's expired now, but whatever. Rebuild a lot of engines. I just understand mechanical principles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mechanical principles, right. Like heat exchangers on airplanes and hydraulic systems and electrical, those kind of things. And that at the end of my Air Force career, I went to usc. I have a Master of Business from usc. [00:07:57] Speaker B: Okay. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Southern Cal. And that kind of really opened my eyes as to what makes an effective business model, what doesn't. Right. [00:08:07] Speaker B: You know, actually, do you mind if we pull on that thread a little bit? Because I have never been. I did not go to business school and I am in business now. And I, I have to admit to thinking that, you know, kind of business school was a lot of like it was accounting, you know, is very similar to finance and especially in kind of the environment or the people that I knew who went to business in school with me and maybe just kind of expand on that. Like, what, what, what are the most valuable things you learned from business school that you think are really meaningful and that you carry with you today as like, oh, I'm glad I know that. [00:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, sure, there's these portions of accounting and then there's the technical aspects. Right into business. Sure. You know, like really understanding the different types of business model or business structures. You know, it's like so a sole proprietorship versus a C corp versus a llc. Right. Different rules in different states. Why, you know, and understanding that, but most importantly is really outlining a value proposition. And, and that's one thing I really liked about the University of Southern California. The program was. It was very hands on and practical and there was a lot of focus on the kind of abstract concepts of like, does your business really provide value? [00:09:42] Speaker B: Okay, that's cool. [00:09:43] Speaker A: You can go pitch a business. But what, what emotional or what need is provided to the person? So, you know, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, like the pyramid, you know, at the bottom you got air, right. Everybody needs some air. And then you got water. And figure down on the bottom and, and we get up further in the pyramid, we've got things like security and then we get up to human relationships. And. And so basically my one thing I pulled out of that is like, if your business fulfills the lowest part of that pyramid for people in a way that they can't get somewhere else or that it provides a maximum value compared to other alternatives at the bottom of the pyramid, you're more likely to have a very good value proposition for people. And so like you remember the movie Spaceballs? [00:10:38] Speaker B: Like, yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker A: You know, where they've got canned air? You know, it's like, you know. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:44] Speaker A: And that's real thing now, right. Like you go to, you go to a convenience store when you get. Or you get off the plane in Denver and they've got like canned air available at the gas station when you go fill up outside the airport there. [00:10:57] Speaker B: That really. [00:10:58] Speaker A: So I'm just saying like. And they sell a bunch of it, you know, and it's like bottled water. Bottled water wasn't a thing until the 1990s. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:06] Speaker A: And, and so you're providing water. [00:11:08] Speaker B: It's like a huge thing. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Oh, it's huge. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:12] Speaker A: So what, what is it that we can do? How can we take this technology and provide a base layer human need for this? Right. Because the need for, for sound money is it's like, it's a secondary layer. Like, they can't get those base layer needs without sound money, Right. But they don't see it as a first order thing that they can get. And so when we take heat, for example, that people need in a cold environment, that's at the bottom of the pyramid, that's down there in safety, security and comfort and shelter. And so if we can provide that free of cost, it's a very good value proposition. It's something that people can really relate to regardless of their age. And the key is really making it simple for them to use and integrate it in a manner that they. Isn't a burden for them. And as one example, like, let's say you've got a machine hooked up and the user doesn't have the technical capability to turn it off. I know that sounds stupid, right? But when we're heating, when we're mining for heat, we're not mining for profit. And so at some point when the heat is no longer required, the user needs to scale it down or turn it off. And so having that ease of control is really important for adoption and to fulfill the value proposition. That's kind of where I'm going with that. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So you went to, you kind of take these principles from, from usc and, and then you kind of have your mechanic, like mechanical and engineering, like mindset and, and knowledge. And when do you encounter Bitcoin in relation to this? Did you retire? And then after, like, where did this, where did this cross? [00:13:07] Speaker A: Okay, this is how it all happened. So I retired out of Southern California in 2018. And then while I was down there, I just kind of assumed that I would go and work for Northrop Grumman or Lockheed Martin working the aircraft factories. I was teaching college too. I taught aircraft construction and map. And man, it got weird when Covid happened. [00:13:35] Speaker B: Oh, Jesus. Oh, yeah. [00:13:37] Speaker A: You know, my kids, my kids are locked in their house. I got my son, the school wants him to do marching band on Zoom. And I'm like, what kind of shit is this? And so, so I'm sorry, I'm not. [00:13:49] Speaker B: Trying to laugh at the pain, but it is just, you know, the, the look back, the hindsight is like, how the hindsight 2020 is. The, the irony there is like, how did it get so far? Like, I know people. I. I have, I have an old friend who put their kids in like the plastic, big plastic containers in like the back seat of their car when they like a German roll ball. Like, literally. And it's just like yeah. Wait, how. How did we get to that place? I just. [00:14:24] Speaker A: Anyway, yeah, it was bizarre and it wasn't good for my, my children and, you know, it's. It just wasn't where I'm from, Idaho. [00:14:32] Speaker B: How were, how old were your kids then? And how many kids do you have? [00:14:36] Speaker A: My wife, two boys and one was 14 at the time. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:14:42] Speaker A: And the other was about eight, I think. Okay. Yeah. [00:14:46] Speaker B: That's a rough. That's a rough age for that situation. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And it, you know, it was okay for the first couple months, and then summer comes around and, you know, the, the schools in California, they're not doing anything to move the ball forward. And, you know, they're a different setup too. Like, the schools are all outside in separate modular trailers and so, like, you could control exposure pretty easy. They just weren't doing anything at all. And here I am paying taxes and I got the school calling me saying, why is your son getting bad grades? I'm like, well, he's not at school. What do you think? Like, like, you know, and he's like a teenage boy and needs to go out and like meet people and have friends and. And so anyway, we decided to basically take my kids. My wife and I at the time decided to move back to Idaho, where I'm from. And coincidentally I found there's this house that. The house I bought that I live in now, I used to go to daycare in it when I was a little kid. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:15:48] Speaker A: And it was up for sale. And it's like, it's an old Victorian house. It was built in 1896. No shit. That's crazy. That's pretty cool. Yeah, so it was for sale and it was a bed and breakfast at the time. And so I saw it for sale and I was like, well, this kind of lines up. I sold the house in California and, you know, moved up and started working remotely basically up in my house in Idaho. Mm. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Can I ask a. Can I ask a question real quick? [00:16:19] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead. [00:16:19] Speaker B: So I have two kids, one's almost four, and our girl will be one in just a week or so. [00:16:30] Speaker A: And. [00:16:32] Speaker B: You know, we've been talking a lot about like, how to even, like, we're intending on probably homeschooling and stuff, but, you know, we live in a pretty populated, like, kind of city oriented area and we've considered moving to a more rural or kind of like back home where, where I grew up area. But how, how hard was that on your 14 year old and your 8 year old for like, kind of like leaving Granted they're in a place where they can't hang out with their friends. But I'm a. I'm a new parent, and we foresee that if we do that decision in six years, it's gonna be a much bigger problem, likely. And I'm just curious what how you thought about that. [00:17:18] Speaker A: And I think moving to a small town was. Was the best thing I could have done for my children. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Wow. [00:17:23] Speaker A: And for myself, too. Like, one thing about living in a big populated area is, you know, a lot of people, but you don't really get to know a lot of people. [00:17:34] Speaker B: Anybody. Yeah, yeah, right. [00:17:36] Speaker A: And when you live in a smaller area, you tend to see a lot of the same people all the time. I mean, it's. You know, you go to a big, big city, you see your friend at the grocery store. It's a coincidence and a big deal. You go to your small town, you see everybody, you know, at the grocery store all the time. Right? Yeah. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:17:57] Speaker A: And. And so, like, the experiences that my kids were able to get before we moved were great. You know, we did a lot of soccer, you know, did the. I was a soccer coach for AYSO for a little while, and we're able to go and do and see things. Living down in Southern California, near Edwards Air Force Base, where I was stationed, and did a lot of things that were really enriching for my children, but they also missed out on the opportunity while we live there. Like my son, for example, he is. He's going to school right now. He's in college for his airframe and power plant license. And before that, he had the opportunity to work at the local airport for the local mro, which is where they, you know, fix the airplanes and stuff. [00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:18:49] Speaker A: And down in California, he would never had that chance. [00:18:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:52] Speaker A: And you can just get to know. [00:18:54] Speaker B: In the small town, you could just get to know the dudes at the airport. Yeah. [00:18:59] Speaker A: I remember him calling me. I was taking an old man nap one afternoon, and, you know, he's like. He calls me, he's like, dad, dad, can I go on a flight? And I'm like, yeah, sure, bud. Just, you know, make sure you get the safety briefing, whatever, wear your seatbelt. And so what The. The airport he worked at, they do backcountry flights. So it's not like an international airport. It's a little tiny airport in the middle of Idaho. And they specialize in flying supplies in to people in the back country. And give you an idea of the amount of wilderness where we live at it's the largest wilderness area in the continental U.S. so Alaska has a bigger area, but like our. I can literally drive up Main street and disappear into the mountains. Wow. And so we have a lot of outdoorsmen that come, you know, go hunting. People go rafting down the river of no Return, Salmon River. And so anyway, his first flight when he's 15 was to help deliver about a thousand pounds of beer to some backcountry rafters. Right. [00:20:06] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:20:07] Speaker A: So they, they're uploading their boys. Yeah. And, and he gets to sit in the right seat, you know, and the, he got a lot of informal training from some really experienced and capable pilots. And that was very good for him, you know, in his teenage years. And that would have never happened in California. And, and comparable kids are working, you know, fast food jobs, if they can even get those. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:32] Speaker A: And granted he's only, he's not making that much money, but he's getting a lot of really practical experience. [00:20:38] Speaker B: And money also goes further in a rural area. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And you can, you don't worry about your kids as much, you know, like they would play fugitive, which is like a game they go play at night where they wear black and they run from each other and they try to make it across town without getting caught. Right. And so you got these groups of kids from high school all running around in black, just running around town. And everybody knows all the kids, you know, all the kids, you know, the adults, you know, some adults that even adults that do have some type of criminal background or whatever, the community knows who they are and they know their background. Like you just know people. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's actually a community. Whereas in big cities you're at arm's length, even the people you know, you know, and yeah, and there's a hundred people you don't have the slightest clue about in between every one of them, you know. [00:21:30] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. And so we only have a thousand people and we're two and a half hours from Walmart. And so. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Which is a great place to be. That's a perfect distance from Walmart. I hate that place. [00:21:47] Speaker A: You got fresh water running out of the mountains, you know, clear mountain streams, a spring in the town, and cheap power. And so one thing I was going to recommend to you guys, if you're looking at a different place to live, and I think a lot of people should do this, okay. If you want to move somewhere else in a more remote rural area, look at the power costs, okay. Because it is a very serious thing to subsidize your heat and your living arrangements with bitcoin mining? [00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, we have pretty high power costs. I definitely pay a premium for the bitcoin that I get from heating the house. But I think on net I'm still saving money, generally speaking, But I also don't care that much as long as I'm roughly breaking even because one way gets me bitcoin and the other way doesn't. So it's just like, it's pretty simple. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying people should move to mine for profit and make that their business model, but there's mining for heat. If you move to an area where electric is the primary way to heat, it's always cheaper to heat with. By mining bitcoin? Yeah, always. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:23:03] Speaker A: But then there's trade offs. You know, if you move to an area with cheap power and natural gas, it may not pencil out and be the cheapest way, but it might still be profitable to mine. So I guess you kind of got to look through that and see. But it is definitely a way to, you know, supplement your income and help make your house more affordable to live in. And you can have a lot of luxury items too. Like, you know, you could have a hot tub when you normally wouldn't have ever had one because you don't want to pay the bill on the heat. Hot tub. Now you just mind your bitcoin and it heats the hot tub. So, you know, why would you do it? [00:23:37] Speaker B: Just keep, keep it warm all the time, man. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Seriously. So if you move to a cold climate with cheap power, there's a lot of, a lot of benefits there. And I mean, I wanted to live in a cold climate. I like having fresh water around and I like the port seasons. That's just where I wanted to live. And so it just kind of aligned. So I want to kind of. So I kind of got sidetracked there. So how do I get to the point where I was mining bitcoin? I had moved back home, moved into my house and I wanted some type of sovereign money. I wanted and I saw the value in having a miner in my home and owning my own bitcoin cold storage. At the time, especially with the previous political climate, I saw a much greater need to have cold storage. I don't see as much now, although in the future I might change my mind. So I've moved a lot of stuff to river so it's secure and I don't have to worry about it. [00:24:40] Speaker B: River's great, man. [00:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:42] Speaker B: I have an affiliate link down in the show note for everybody. By the way, River. River wins. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I think it's pretty good. And so I got a. I got a fog hashing immersion miner. Immersion mining tank. I ordered that and I set up a S19J Pro. Paid way too much money for it from compass mining, you know, as at the time. And. But I learned a lot by doing it. And so I started mining and what I noticed when I was trying to configure everything is that there was a lot of stuff that just bolts up to standard threads. And I got looking at different ways. [00:25:19] Speaker B: To like explain what you mean by that, just in case. [00:25:23] Speaker A: Well, so you have a tank, right? You have a tank with a computer in it. And it's sitting in this dielectric oil and the pump pushes it out of the line. And the line is a. It's a hose, essentially. Yeah. And it's three quarter inch on these. On these initial versions they were 3 quarter inch MPT, not, not n as in it's in November. But Mike Papa, you know, thread. But these are actually British style threads. So they're. They use a flat gasket. But they're really similar in the. Any way they thread up, especially to a normal brace plate heat exchanger. I noticed that those thread right up. And then I noticed that those heat exchangers are also used in other applications. And the most recent tanks, you know, from fog ashing have a one inch. So they, they thread up to a lot more things are better suited. [00:26:13] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [00:26:14] Speaker A: And so I was like, well, how can I use this? So the first thing I did, the first project I ever wanted to start, I went down to the local concrete plant and I said, hey man, let's heat your water tank. And he's like, all right. [00:26:33] Speaker B: And that's exactly how they sound too. All right. In a concrete plant. That's exactly what they sound like. [00:26:38] Speaker A: And you gotta realize they were using propane to heat like in the winter, they had to heat this big 2,500 gallon tank. [00:26:45] Speaker B: Whoa. Yeah. Bitcoin wins. And that's. Propane's usually the most expensive of the. [00:26:50] Speaker A: Well here where we live, the cost of propane is about the same per kilowatt hour. It's actually a little more than electricity. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And so it's. And then the propane, you know, it's not a hundred percent efficient. It's like 95% efficient. The. And so anyway, they would heat this tank up to X amount of degrees and it costs a lot of money. They're spending about a thousand bucks a month. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Propane. [00:27:17] Speaker A: And so I wasn't sure how to do it, but I was sure I could figure it out. [00:27:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:24] Speaker A: So we, we took this. [00:27:25] Speaker B: That's how all great things are built. [00:27:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So we took this tank, I hooked up a heat exchanger to it, and then I ran it outside to a heat dump. Because my theory. And this is how I do all my setups now, or basically. So you, you have a heat point that you want to heat the object, and at the end of the loop, you always have a heat dump. And that's usually like a radiator that's outside. Right. And we can hook that fan on the radiator to a thermostat control switch, and then we can regulate the temperature. And the most recent fog hashing tri coolers that come out, you can set a target temperature so you can keep your loop at whatever your computers are going to support. So right now, like with the S21s, they run best at 35 Celsius, which is pretty low. They're not as heat tolerant as the old J Pros, but they're more efficient. Right. So you just set that, heat, dump it, whatever you want. So anyway, that's what we did. But at the time, there wasn't an actual control board on those machines. And so I had to rig some shit up, you know, and I got some custom thermostats off ebay and I, like, wired it all up and it looked like a Frankenstein project, which is what I try to avoid. Right? Yeah, we don't like Frankenstein. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Gotta make it look nice. It's gotta look. [00:28:40] Speaker A: You gotta make it look nice. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Gotta make it look good function. [00:28:42] Speaker A: Yes, But. And then basically we just took the. The water tank and it has its own pump and that's hooked to a thermostat. And so the thermostat on the water pump, basically, once it reaches target temperature, it turns the pump off, and so it maintains. And you can do the hot tub the same way where, you know, these, these machines will easily heat water to about 115. And so for a hot tub, it's a pretty good target. You set it at like 104, 105 if you like a hot one. And it'll just suck. It'll basically just turn the pump on and capture heat whenever it needs it. So it's not a real complex thing. It doesn't require any software that. Or firmware. The firmware and the machines will adjust themselves. [00:29:27] Speaker B: Just a couple of switches, basically. [00:29:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's just mechanical switches and controls. And after Doing that, I discovered Supply House. So I recommend Supply House to a lot of people. [00:29:40] Speaker B: Is this a brand that does this sort of stuff? Supply House? [00:29:43] Speaker A: Well, Supply House is an H VAC Supply house. Oh, okay. [00:29:50] Speaker B: Just straight up plumbing, heating and H VAC supplies. Okay. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so you can find things in there that'll bolt right up to the existing immersion style systems. And it's one reason why I like immersion and prefer it over other things is because the problem with the. [00:30:11] Speaker B: The. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Hydro systems, the hydro miners, in my opinion is they don't, they're not as easily upgradable and integrated. You can take an immersion tank and once you've put the immersion tank infrastructure in and you got the fluid there and you got the heat dump and everything, if you want a new computer, you just pull it out and put one in. [00:30:32] Speaker B: Put another one in. [00:30:33] Speaker A: Yeah, right. But with the, with the hydro style systems you have other problems too. Like some of them are incompatible. Three phase. Yeah, they're cheaper per terahash and I really wish there was some mod or something and we could make them run on 240, you know, but nobody's really done that. The immersion systems in my opinion, for ease of use and helping people integrate them into their homes are really the way to go. The air cooled systems I think are okay in some aspects, but the problem that you have is the international building code stipulates that any forced air heater has to be UL listed. And so if you're a business and you're trying to integrate these things, you can kind of get around that by having an immersion cooled system. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Okay. [00:31:20] Speaker A: And really you'd need essentially a UL listed PDU if someone's really going to get in the weeds with you. But generally the PDUs are just plug in appliances and so they're not subject to code. Right. So if you have just an outlet, that's all the electrical inspector is going to look at. But as a, as a business, you want to make sure that everything's safe. Obviously you want to make sure you're using high quality components and people need to understand that they bear some responsibility in operating their own equipment too. Yeah, so I just noticed that all this stuff bolted up and that the concepts behind it weren't hard to implement. And when you look at how a radiant heat system works, it's very simple. You basically just have a decentralized boiler is all that the computers are. You're turning them into a, a boiler loop. And when the radiant heat system needs the heat, it just turns the pump on and pulls heat from the heat exchanger. As far as the H VAC system knows, it doesn't know any better. I mean, it's just the fluids being heated. It doesn't need to have some type of complex control on the computers or anything like that. [00:32:32] Speaker B: I get a question. Well, actually first. So this, the concrete plant that works, they're still mining bitcoin and heating their stuff? [00:32:41] Speaker A: Yeah, they've upgraded, so they. They've saved a significant amount of money. You know, net difference. I'll bet. I'll bet they've a net difference of about 10,000 bucks. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Wow. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Probably something like that. And they heat their office still with a separate single unit immersion miner. But they've upgraded their water heat tank to a. A C6, which is a six unit tank. And so they use six S21s to heat the tank. And it rips. So we've got, you know, they're like. I think they're 200 terahash machines. And we got them running at like 2:20. [00:33:21] Speaker B: Nice. [00:33:23] Speaker A: And so they're. They're just sitting there ripping and they, they really take the edge off of that heat. If it's super cold out, um, they can just close the loop on the. The water that goes to the computers and top it off with some propane if they want to heat it up to like 160 or something like that. But generally the. The computers for most of the days heats the water just fine to 1 10. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Wow. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Um, and so 1 10, 1 05. Whatever they need. But obviously the, the colder you can keep them, the more efficient they run. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:33:59] Speaker A: So to a point. Not too cold. But yeah, it's a. It's a really good business case. And you know, the car wash too, I'm sure you've seen that. [00:34:08] Speaker B: That. Yes. That was actually the original post. That was the one. That was the one that got me. And then it went down the rabbit hole of. Of your feed. Actually, that. That was the one I couldn't remember if I miss. Mistook it for a jacuzzi or something. But in my brain. The car wash. The car wash. Because I asked you about it. We talked about that in dm. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So the car wash, it really improved the quality of life for our town too. Because it's the only car wash. Right. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Because they're all the other ones are frozen. [00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Dude. Well, even in our town, I mean, there's one that's getting put together, but it's not done. It's not operational. Mm. And in our town, it's like one bay. It's got a wand, you know, it's not an automatic car wash, but you assault on the cars and you get mud. [00:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:01] Speaker A: And in the winter you need to like spray your car off, you know. So previously the owners, they would have to pay about $25 a day in propane to operate the de icing system on the floor. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:15] Speaker A: They have a melt system and also heat the water. Now we have same cost roughly, but they get full cost recovery in bitcoin. [00:35:31] Speaker B: Do either one of them keep the bitcoin? Do they, do they like save and hold on the bitcoin or they just, they literally just put it on their P and L. Basically they keep it. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Okay, well, I mean, as far as I know, I mean they, sure, they may sell some of it, but I really focus on, I make sure I don't handle their money. That's another thing too. Like, that's smart. I don't want to be a money handler. [00:35:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:54] Speaker A: Because you run into like legal problems. So really what I focus on is I help them set their pool up and you know, I get a percentage of helping them run it, but it's an automatic split. Like I don't pay them and they don't pay me. [00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:10] Speaker A: And we keep it really simple. And at any point, if someone doesn't want me to help them run it anymore, I don't mind if they, if they want to terminate our agreement, you know, or, or whatever, they can run it themselves. [00:36:22] Speaker B: How do you, how do you do the split? Out of curiosity. [00:36:26] Speaker A: Well, and this, this goes into like one reason. Man, I really wish I could use Ocean. [00:36:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:34] Speaker A: But part of the problem and one reason we use Brains Pool is because of the ability to split the hash rate. And without getting too technical, I think it's because it operates at the proxy. But I don't get into the programming aspect of things at all. [00:36:53] Speaker B: Gotcha, man. You could probably vibe code, something that does that automatically, like do different accounts and throw one out of every ten hashes at that one. [00:37:05] Speaker A: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And so that's kind of how it works is the bitcoin rewards get split to my company and to the owner. And the owner has total transparency on their app. And that's really what I think a lot of people miss. You've got to make things simple and user friendly, clear and not expect people to conform to your technical aspects. Right. You can't expect people to change their behavior to conform with your, your technical complexities. Yeah. Right. [00:37:44] Speaker B: You have to meet them where they are. You can't go to them and be like come, come, come do what I do. You know, like it's like, well you're not, you're not helping their problem, you're not solving their problem if you don't meet them where they are. [00:37:58] Speaker A: And it's super simple to link their phone up to their pool and they can monitor their home heat wherever they're at. You know, they like, oh my computers aren't hashing, I'm not getting my heat right. Or they could see how much money they're making at any time. They can show their friends and you know, brains really hit the nail on the head with that app because it looks nice, it's visually pleasing and it shows them all the information they need. It makes it easy to understand what's going on with their mining. And that's I think where, where Ocean Falls a little bit short on that end user adoption. I mean ultimately what's going to happen is in my opinion you're going to see everybody's going to be heating with bitcoin. It's, it's just going to happen. [00:38:45] Speaker B: Do you think that's where mining goes in general? Like, because the interesting thing about that is that, is that it means that mining can be forever non profitable but still do its job. You know what I mean? Like is that it changes the conversation around the security budget. [00:39:06] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean there's going to be instances like you know, for your, your natural gas burners, right, Your folks mine a bitcoin out in the field. If, if you've got free energy and there's no other use for it to where you can make more per kilowatt hour, it'll always be like some probably bitcoin. I mean there might be some other people doing some other kind of mining with some type of shitcoin somewhere, but. [00:39:34] Speaker B: On a long enough timeline it all goes back to bitcoin in my opinion. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and I agree. So you also have these instances where you've got relatively cheap power, even 2 cents a kilowatt hour, you know, and, and there's other things that that power can be used for. [00:39:52] Speaker B: That's two cents. [00:39:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that would be nice. You know, it would be great. But the, the amount of dollar equivalent per kilowatt hour is probably going to continue to fall. I mean if, if history's any indicator of how long or the, the hash price, we're going to still see it go down. And so really like with with home heating, your cost basis is essentially Zero. You just have to change your user behavior. You have to modulate the use of your bitcoin miner to offset your heat and not mine for profit. And I think that's. That's a challenge because right now we've just got, you know, S19s, even S21s, and they're hooked to a switch. And if you. If you do have some type of firmware and going back to vibe coding, you probably could put something in there where there's a calculus based on hash price. And if you need the heat or not, it'll throttle the computer up and down through an API. Right. So that'd be great. And that's probably where we're going is like, people's thermostats, you know, will automatically change the way their. Their miner operates based upon market parameters. Like, if you see a spike in hash price because for whatever reason, maybe there's a big nuclear war. You know, what if there is? What if there's a big war and it knocks out 50% of the Bitcoin miners? You know, if you're in a remote rural area and you're still operating, you're. You'd want to keep it running. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:25] Speaker A: But let's say we don't, and I hope we don't. And there's, you know, a million more computers that come online. You're going to see your house price go down, and you're going to want to make sure your computers don't run unnecessarily because it'll cost you money. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah. On the immersion stuff, because I have right now, the basement's still not done, so it's a construction zone. And I just managed to get one miner hook back up because every. Every morning if I'm going down there, open up door, it's cold as crap down there. [00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:59] Speaker B: And one miner almost does the trick, but it's still probably about like 7 degrees difference. 7 degrees, 10 degrees colder, maybe. [00:42:08] Speaker A: It probably tops. Yeah. [00:42:11] Speaker B: But I am curious how. How reliable is the immersion system? Because I've heard people talk about like, oh, it's like super messy and a huge problem to deal with dielectric fluid and all that stuff. And then you can run. Run into leaks and all that. And I'm just like, you know, like, the only reason we experience a lot of leaks in our plumbing is because I keep changing stuff. But generally you don't. There's just not leaking, is not that big of a thing. If you just do the pipes right and you do the connections right, you know, o rings and stuff might go out after 10 years. But how, how big of a complication is that part of it? How messy is it? How frustrating is it to work with that versus just air cooled? Because right now I have air cooled. I bought a, or I bought two. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Of. [00:43:06] Speaker B: What'S the infinity AC infinity fans for like grow systems or whatever. And they're great, but they are, they're kind of loud. You know, like everything's a little loud. So I would love the idea of like, okay, how can I, how can I cool this in a far less auditory, invasive way? [00:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So I mean air cooled's cool. But the problem with air cooled machines, like I said for one, if you're doing an install for like a central heat system, you run into that code issue. Okay. But like for us kind of folks that like to do stuff ourselves, it's a really good use case for like the S19J Pro right now or the S19 series where you can down clock it. Like you can do the 120 volt mod and you can get the quieter fans from Altair Tech. I don't know if you've seen those, but they do have the quieter fans you can put on there. They make a big difference. And so you know, at the 120 volt with the quieter fans you're running, you're down clock and you're getting a better efficiency out of the machine. And it's a good use case for space heater, supplemental heaters for a central core. You can't get the kind of density for energy that you can like with, with air. You're not going to fit six air cooled miners in the same spot and be able to move the heat around like you can with the immersion system. [00:44:40] Speaker B: Okay. So the system itself is way more compact because you don't have to have. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. You can just kind of like put them together and you're moving, you're moving the liquid to, to get the heat. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, exactly. And so like in my basement I've got six machines in a six unit tank. [00:44:58] Speaker B: Wow. [00:44:59] Speaker A: And that's my, my probably my biggest viewed video on X. It's got about three and a half million views, but it runs over to a heat exchanger. And that heat exchanger, basically the glycol runs through the other side and so I can dump my. The, the old boiler was rated for about the same amount of heat as the computers. And so I basically just put that heat exchanger in before the boiler. So like, and it's on Separate electrical circuits. So if I ever needed that boiler to supplement it, I could. But I have it this winter at all. And I've heated like almost exclusively with bitcoin mining in my whole home this winter. It's 4700. [00:45:42] Speaker B: So it puts through a radiator. Do you literally just run the water through the radiator or do you heat the water continuously? Like, is it kind of like an on demand thing that as long as the miners are still producing heat, you can just run it through the radiator and it gets warm enough or is it a. You have a tank. [00:46:00] Speaker A: Don't want to mix up terms here because you said water. You're talking about the glycol that heats the home. [00:46:04] Speaker B: This is to heat the home. Not. This is not a water heater. Sorry. Correct. [00:46:08] Speaker A: This is to heat a home. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Okay. To heat a home. [00:46:10] Speaker A: So, yes, like a glycol based radium floor heat system. [00:46:17] Speaker B: Oh. [00:46:17] Speaker A: And so the. [00:46:18] Speaker B: Okay. [00:46:18] Speaker A: The dielectric immersion fluid runs through one side of a heat exchanger. And then after that it goes to a heat dump outside with the target temperature setting on the heat dump. And then it returns back to the tank. And then the computer firmware. I run brains OS automatically tunes the computers to run at that temperature. [00:46:38] Speaker B: Okay. [00:46:39] Speaker A: At the most efficient manner. Right. And if I change that temperature, like in the springtime, I'll turn it down because I don't need as much heat and I want my computers to run more efficiently. I'll turn it down a little bit. But on. On the heat exchanger. But that hot oil goes through on the other side. There's glycol that runs through it. It's a glycol water mix. And that is what heats my home. Essentially. It's what's the heat. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:04] Speaker A: And so like even in the, in the summertime, because it's profitable to mine where I live, I'll leave the heat on and turn on my swamp core. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Oh, that's amazing. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So I basically turned my home into a giant heat dump for more bitcoin mining. [00:47:25] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:47:26] Speaker A: It works really well. So I'm in kind of an ideal place, honestly, to mine. I've got low regulations, no unnecessary regulations. I mean, we do have like plumbing inspectors and we have electrical. Sure. Yeah. But when it comes to nonsense regulations, we don't have any arbitrary. No bitcoin money. The power company's pretty. They work with us. They want, you know, if we have a, what they call a high density load, they want a transformer upgrade, which I understand, we want to make sure the conductors are the right size. And it's. The power rates are relatively low. We live in an arid climate, so it's easy to cool homes with just evaporative cooling, which doesn't use a lot of power. You just run a motor. And there's other things, too, like capital credits. If you live where there's a co op. Right. You're actually an electrical co op. You're actually part of the company. You own part of it. That's what a co op is. And so the more energy you use and the higher your bills are, the greater your capital cost credits are. So you basically make more money by spending more money. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that's funny. [00:48:41] Speaker A: And taxes, too. People don't consider the tax advantage of this. Okay. They misunderstand the tax calculus here. So if I claim on my taxes that I mine Bitcoin, I'm basically a sole proprietor, right? Now, if your business owns your home, that's different. Like, all your expenses are still under your business or shop, but let's say your personal home, it's likely your business doesn't own your personal home. And so if you become a sole proprietor bitcoin miner, you do that at your home. It's not an issue of the square footage you use to mine the bitcoin as a percentage of the square footage of your house. Like, normally when you do a tax thing, you have a home office. If your home office is 10% of your house, you get 10% deduction on your power bill. Whatever. Right. But in this case, if you convert all of your heating to mining bitcoin. [00:49:39] Speaker B: It'S for the whole house. [00:49:41] Speaker A: Your energy bill to mine the bitcoin is a deduction. [00:49:46] Speaker B: Wow. [00:49:46] Speaker A: And therefore, you've just turned your heat bill into a full tax deduction. [00:49:51] Speaker B: Wow. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:53] Speaker B: That's crazy. I didn't think about that. Do you think that largely applies everywhere? [00:50:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, obviously, this is not financial advice. Contact your tax professional. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Caveat, disclaimer, whatever. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Your audit protection on turbo tax. No, but that. There's. There's other aspects of mining. It's not just as simple as how much is my power and how much does it make. [00:50:25] Speaker B: Mm. [00:50:26] Speaker A: It's not that simple. So going back to what I've. I've told a few people. There's four types of miners. There's. Type one is like, they need the heat. Like, if they don't apply the heat, it's gonna freeze the house and the pipes will freeze. They have to have the heat type 2 is a luxury heat user. Hot tubs, sidewalk, snowmelt systems, maybe a garden shed could be considered luxury heat. That is subjective to the user and what they think it's worth. Type three is someone who mines for profit. So their calculus is that, you know, what is my power rate and what is my return? And then you got a type 4 user which is an ideologue and those are your bid axes. [00:51:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Like they're lottery miners, you know, or someone who just has a million bucks and they don't care and they run a computer just as a lottery miner, whatever. They don't care about their power bill. So depending on your use case, that's really what makes sense if you want to mine or not. And people got to think a little bit deeper than just oh, what's so like when, when I post on X certain things and people are like, oh, what's your power rate? Like they're trying to evaluate the merit of my idea, you know, and it, it's really irritating honestly, when, when people just ask me what my power rate is because they, they're not really getting the whole concept because know and I, I sick of answering the same stupid question all the time. [00:51:50] Speaker B: You know, speaking of being sick of people who don't get it, you mentioned or we briefly got into all the fud and dealing with Normie's perspective and stuff recently. Maybe dive into your frustration and experience with that a little bit. Because I know I've, I've like loosely been in that, but I'll be perfectly honest, I don't, I don't halt in the that much anymore about bitcoin. You know, I'm kind of like in bitcoin circles. So I'm kind of curious what, what you see kind of outside the, the bubble that I guess I'm usually stuck in. [00:52:33] Speaker A: If someone else asked me if I've heard of XRP again, I'm going to choke them. I'm like, and then they try to convince me that it's so much better. [00:52:43] Speaker B: Oh, it's so much better. [00:52:45] Speaker A: They don't see, they're like, XRP's got this big marketing campaign, right? Yeah, they, they've got a bunch of people that are, I guess you call them influencer or whatever, but they're just paid shills and they have a company. [00:52:58] Speaker B: That just issued themselves all of the ripple and all they have ever done is dump it onto people. Like they just, they just made themselves all of the coins and then they use the coins to promote the coin to get liquidity to Dump the coin. All they've ever done, all the Ripple foundation has ever done is sell. That's all they have ever done. They printed and then they sell. That's it. And that's how they do everything they do. And they're super rich. [00:53:24] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And. And so people gotta really. If they had a second level of thinking, like, a little more critical on this, they'd that think, well, why don't I see the same thing for bitcoin? You know, like, what, is the bitcoin CEO taking out ads? No. Why not? Oh, maybe because it's a technology and not a stock, essentially. Right. And so getting people to understand the concept of why. Why you can't heat your home with xrp, you know, that's one question I have for people. Oh, you heat your home with xrp, you know, or XRP technology. Oh, no. Why not? And. And they don't know why not. That's the thing they don't understand. [00:54:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:06] Speaker A: The reason why they can't do that. And so that's one thing for the normies. I think some of the other stuff I see is, like, especially with the Epstein stuff going on right now, you know, like, I don't. I don't think or care if Epstein was involved in code development for what runs bitcoin. I don't care. Just like I don't care when I start a fire in my living room in the decorative fireplace that maybe there were some cannibals that used fire. Right. [00:54:47] Speaker B: The matches came from a cannibal, a company with cannibals. Like, well, does the match. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:54:54] Speaker B: Does the match work? [00:54:56] Speaker A: Like, yeah, yeah. Hitler. Hitler drove in cars. So, you know, you better not drive in cars. You know, it like, like judging the merit of a technology based upon its users or whomever dealt with it in the past. And, And a lot of people that have that kind of fud. They don't understand what open source means. [00:55:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, right. It's funny to me. Like, the thing that gets me about it is how. How difficult it is for people to comprehend decentralization is that they say, because, you know, like, the. One of the big. The big things is that Epstein invested $500,000 into Blockstream and Adam back and talked, spoke with Adam back and like, this means that bitcoin has been compromised. But, like, okay, so you believe it means that you don't understand how, why, or in what way bitcoin is decentralized because you literally think it's just blockstream. Like, you. You literally just think that, like, Adam Back is king of bitcoin. And so if he thought a thing, then that is just how it manifested in reality. And there has to. There's no other connection or sequence of events or anything. It's just like, oh, Adam Becker blockstream or Gavin or whoever it was just had an opinion about a thing and thus it was totally adopted. Without question. There weren't six years of screaming, fighting arguments about this and a thousand separate interest and the whole drug market that had a completely separate set of interests and dictators who were mining 4% of the Bitcoin hash power at the time. Like, no. Like, all of those things happened. And then, yes, a dude running a human trafficking ring also saw it just after he found out that it was big in the dark web markets and then talked about it like, oh, money laundering on the Internet. Great. Of course he's interested in it. Every nefarious character was partly interested in bitcoin for a little while back there. But it's just like they also built. [00:57:03] Speaker A: Fires at their places. [00:57:04] Speaker B: They did, they did. They wore shoes and they drove cars. It's such a. It's such a stretch. And, And I'm not even saying that it's not worth investigating. Like, absolutely. If there's supposed. If you can point at something where, like, oh, Epstein believed this thing and then he literally, you know, paid like Ripple. Great example, paid 5 million or had a $10 million campaign to push openly to. To basically FUD Bitcoin and say it was climate change and all this evil stuff. Like a huge propaganda campaign that didn't work. But, like, I'm supposed to be concerned about $500,000 from Epstein with no clear indication of a plan or an opinion about anything. And that's like the big thing. Not once can I find a legitimate or concrete opinion about protocol development or that he had any knowledge whatsoever or care about what is happening in the bitcoin space. It's all. It's all us from the inside saying, I care about this. And therefore Epstein was here. And so the opposing opinion that's got to do with Epstein. I'm big blocker. The small blockers. That was Epstein. Filter debate. The no filters. That was Epstein. It just for no reason. There's no connection to a big block or connection to a filter or anything. It just arbitrarily, just magically out of thin air, Epstein was here. Therefore the thing that I disagree with has to do with him. [00:58:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, the. The other thing is, and this is one reason AI, I think is so valuable now, is it Used to be where if you didn't read code or didn't understand it, you couldn't analyze it yourself and figure out what's going on. And now you can plug stuff in and ask AI opinions, you know, and even for the most advanced coders, they could do the same thing. And so when we take that open source code and we analyze it with AI, we would find something. If there was something hidden in there, it would be apparent. And anybody can do that. So to argue that just because someone was involved with something before, I would say it's even more simplistic now to see if there is an actual vulnerability. Even more so than buying a car. Like, if you go and buy a car, some people are concerned the government could just shut it down. Right. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Which, yeah, that thing's a real box. You don't really know. You don't really know what kind of, what kind of counterparty risk you are carrying with the car that you buy. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Correct. You don't know. You don't know what you're going to deal with. So with this, you can't, you can tell. [00:59:44] Speaker B: That's a crazy way to think about it. That's a crazy way to think about it. That right now we have the tools to better assess. You could go through with AI in an hour and go piece by piece through Bitcoin and assess the code in a pretty relatively sophisticated sense. I mean, obviously you're trusting the AI model, but that's a bit, that's a very different trust model than it is to trust the black box code thing. And you can literally independently make an assessment of Bitcoin and understand the major pieces and the structure and how it works vastly better than you can go out and buy a car and know that that car is yours and how it works and all the individual pieces of it then vastly quicker as well. That's crazy to think about. I have not put that in my brain until you just said it. [01:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's not just that the, the transactions and the ledger is auditable and that it always balances. It's that the machinery that operates it is auditable too, on the second layer. Right. And, and we can ensure that that's a safe thing to use and our, our government can do it too. And ultimately I, I give a lot of, you know, people give Jason Lowry a lot of shit for softwar. Have you read it? [01:01:09] Speaker B: Not in full. It's a big, it's a big thing. But I do, I do have it. It ended up Getting packed away before I. I'll break it back out when my studio's in order, but I don't know. A bunch of people give him shit, but I'm just like, I don't know. That's a cool. It's a clever theory and it's a new way of thinking about. [01:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I think people get too caught up on the concept that he says that the energy stored in the blockchain, I mean, obviously I don't think that's literally true. I'm not going to download energy from. Nobody thinks that. But the point being is it documents you. You can't write without the energy. Right. [01:01:46] Speaker B: So proof of energy, it's literally like. [01:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's proof of energy. Right. And the only way to change it, you go back, you ever play Command and Conquer? [01:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:55] Speaker A: Remember you had. Had to harvest. [01:01:57] Speaker B: That game was the. Was dope in the back of the day, but you have to harvest. [01:02:01] Speaker A: You had to harvest the money, right? [01:02:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:02:03] Speaker A: You know, and you got things out there and they kind of blow them up or whatever. And so fundamentally, the operation of any war fighting machine relies on money. It has to have money. And it goes back to fix the money, fix the world. You know, if they can't take our money for wars, we. We could have more world peace. Right. And then fundamentally, that's the control of the money becomes the war. [01:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah, right, yeah. At the end of the day, all war is about capital. All war is about capital. The narrative is always subversive to the point because you cannot engage in the war. And there is no quote unquote, winning of the war without control of the capital. Controlling the capital is always the first reason, period. [01:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So strategically, from a war fighting perspective, you go in and you take control of things that provide capital, like oil and certain mines maybe, or you go and steal the enemy's gold at the reserves or whatever. And then when you have that capital, you can build more war fighting equipment and fight your war if necessary. But if you can control it at the capital level, at the base layer, you can win the war, essentially. And I think that's a good summation of really what he's getting at is that, um, there's going to come a point where governments are fighting over control of the bitcoin network. Because I do think it's plausible that everything goes to zero against bitcoin. I think it's totally plausible. Do I think it's probable? I don't know if I would say that, but I think it's plausible. And we we need to, like, think about that from a national strategic perspective and make sure our country is well suited to, you know, control the hash rate, essentially, and. And also having a bunch of those resources as well. So I think there's a lot of merit in what Jason, you know, put together. And it's very dense, though. It's a very dense book. And not to say I could agree with everything in there, but I think he's. He's pretty, pretty close on what he's saying. [01:04:20] Speaker B: There's another interesting point, too, is when you think about, like, centralized energy infrastructure and how, like, capital energy, like oil, all these things, like, these are really the crux. They're. They are the. The core LEGO bricks of war and its reasoning and, and importantly, how you win. And from that standpoint, you realize how powerful it is to decentralize not only just the money, but decentralized energy production and to make energy production and use profitable at a scale, at a smaller scale that wasn't. That couldn't have been achieved in a different environment or with a different technology. And how powerful that is because just under the context of, like, tyranny of your own government is the mechanism to control the population is to also control the capital, control the energy. You know, you're. You're stuck on the grid and, and, you know, some. Somebody come in and just take over the power plant. And now they, you know, they have strings on the whole city, right? [01:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:32] Speaker B: And, and every resistance inside of it. But when you have people thinking about how to produce their own energy and be sustaining and to profit from energy that isn't plugged into the grid, that doesn't have to be documented. You know, Hodl Tarantula is another good example, actually, is he's out in the middle nowhere, producing his own energy and mining Bitcoin. Like, that's wild. [01:05:57] Speaker A: What does he use for energy production? What's he doing? [01:06:02] Speaker B: I want to say. I want to say he told me methane, but I could be wrong about that. Don't quote me on it. You'll have to tag him. Okay, yeah, that's good, but just. It's just. It's wild. [01:06:16] Speaker A: Kind of a similar concept where we live. I mean, when it comes to hydroelectric power per square mile, Idaho is the most dense state in the country for hydroelectric energy. [01:06:29] Speaker B: Wow. [01:06:29] Speaker A: Potential. [01:06:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:32] Speaker A: And with Starlink now, a lot of those stranded assets can be utilized. And I want to talk about this hydroelectric thing because a lot of people misunderstand the potential here, and they think that when we say hydroelectric, we mean just Build a dam. And that becomes an issue for, you know, migratory fish routes because you block off fish and they can't get back to where they need to spawn and all that. But it doesn't mean it needs to be that way. I mean, there's a run of river systems, for example, that just capture some of the the water and have enough bypass to allow the fish to get through. And with fish screens, they don't know the difference, but there's massive amounts of energy that aren't captured in Idaho. And we also have, for example, the Lost river range, which is. You ever heard of proud source water? [01:07:31] Speaker B: I don't think so. [01:07:32] Speaker A: It's like the fancy water at the gas station on the top shelf. You go to whole foods like it's in an aluminum bottle and it's like $3.50, you know. [01:07:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:43] Speaker A: That's bottled in this little town called Mackey. M A C K A Y. Some people call it McKay. [01:07:47] Speaker B: Okay. [01:07:48] Speaker A: But we call it Mackie. And in that Lost river area, which is close to the Idaho National Laboratory where they do the nuclear stuff, the streams run out of the mountains and they just sink right into the ground. And so there's no real migratory fish, but there's a lot of energy that comes out of the mountains that isn't captured. And so, for example, if we put in hydroelectric generation units in these different spots and just had it pass through, it's still going to go on the ground. You're just capturing the energies that comes through. And with Starlink, you know, or even local broadband that's just remotely transferred, you can mine bitcoin. And we're, we're doing that right now. We already have a set up going. We partnered with the hydroelectric plant owner and we literally use the energy off of Idaho's tallest mountain, Mount Bora. We capture the stream coming off of it and we're mining bitcoin with it right now. [01:08:46] Speaker B: That's awesome. How many setups do you have, if you don't mind sharing? So you've been doing this since 2000? 20ish zone, maybe? 20. 21. [01:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah, 21, 22. [01:08:59] Speaker B: Okay. And how many, how often do you go, do you go to people? Do they now come to you and talking about things like, let's say, how's your business plan in this? And is this your sole focus? Like, is this what you do? [01:09:14] Speaker A: Like no, this is my side hustle, actually. [01:09:17] Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay. [01:09:20] Speaker A: So I around where I live, we have 23 sites right now. [01:09:25] Speaker B: Wow. [01:09:26] Speaker A: Where we mine bitcoin. And those vary anywhere from one machine to, I think at one I've got 50 Asics. [01:09:34] Speaker B: That's a hell of a side hustle. [01:09:37] Speaker A: Yeah, but those are. Other people own them, you know. Yeah, sure. I'd say for my own personal miners that I run, I probably have about 20 machines that I run that I own. But when it comes to the whole community, we have about 23 different sites. I would say I've helped set up in other sites around the country and selling equipment to people or sending them kits to run probably about 10 more in different places, whether that's Virginia, Colorado, Washington state, just different places. And so yeah, I go out and I administer these things, you know, part time. My real job. My real job. Yeah, my real job. People could probably figure that out, find me on LinkedIn or whatever. But I try to disassociate the two. [01:10:33] Speaker B: That's fair. [01:10:34] Speaker A: This is really like a, a part time thing for me and I, I don't feel like I want to operate a franchise model or anything like that. My son, my oldest son told me, he's like, dad, don't tell anybody about this because it's a good idea and we can make a big business. And I thought, you know, no one man can bear the power of the ring. And so I think, I think the best way to really get this out is just to help everybody else. And that's why I, I tell people I'm like, even locally, if, if they want to do it, I'll tell them how they don't need me to do it. They don't have to sign up for some Ponzi, which is what a lot of people think when they first hear about it. Like they need to sign up for an account or whatever. So I focus mainly on what I can control in my own personal scope, which is fine for a part time job. And if people want equipment from me, I can help them set up their stuff, you know, no problem. But it's definitely not my primary focus. Although it would be cool to have a store. I think it'd be cool to have a store where people could come in and buy equipment and see it in person and see if. [01:11:42] Speaker B: No, that would be, that would be pretty dope. Have, have one on display in front or whatever. There's like heat in the place. Yeah, yeah, that's probably what something too though. [01:11:52] Speaker A: That like. [01:11:55] Speaker B: That'S the, the kind of like give and take of like a very populated, like being in a city versus in a rural area is much more difficult to do something like that in a rural area than it is in a city. But then you have the exact opposite problem when it comes to, like, engaging, knowing people and, you know, having all the connections to. [01:12:16] Speaker A: To actually expand it and not. Not just knowing people and engaging with people, but you have a problem with regulatory bodies. [01:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. [01:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, like, in the state of Idaho, for example, the inspector, he came to look at my setup, and he looked right at me, and he's like. Because I'm the only person in Idaho as far as what he told me, doing this. Right? [01:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:41] Speaker A: And he's like, man, they're talking about you at the state. And I'm like, what? He's like, we don't know what to do with you, man. So. Because it's. It's. [01:12:54] Speaker B: That's a great place to be. That's a great. Like, that's. That's a. That's a badge of honor right there. Like, you should. There should be. There should be a badge on your shirt that says, the state doesn't know what to do with me. The inspector is confused. I am winning. [01:13:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, I'd like to be involved if they're going to write regulations, like, on what's reasonable, you know, because I think there should be some kind of control over, like, people need to put the right gauge wire in, you know, and that kind of stuff and make sure that it's safe. [01:13:25] Speaker B: Just like a very simple check on. [01:13:28] Speaker A: But we don't want a bunch of. But interfering with regulation. [01:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So. But, yeah, I think if, you know, having a store, for example, would be. Would be great if people could just buy stuff off the shelf. When I first started doing this, my. My real model and thoughts were like, we're going to call it a heater because basically. And, you know, if I offend somebody, I don't care. But the communist regime of Biden, like, really was trying to lock down on Bitcoin. Okay. And. And that really bothered me, and I was kind of worried that they're going to have some type of prosecutorial thing going on or whatever. So we're like, well, let's. Let's just say we provide heat systems. And so that's it. Like, who's. Who's the government to say how your heater can operate? [01:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Marcus. Say you have to have this heating element, and it's got to be this thing, and the flame can only be this big. Just like. [01:14:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's too much. Right. And so we're talking about heat systems now. Then once that threat kind of went away, I would say. And bitcoin has become more adopted and it's more institutionalized now. We got ETFs and everything. So I'm not as concerned about that anymore. If you call it a heat system and you're going to put in a heat system, you need to be a licensed H VAC contractor. Okay. Okay. And here's the absurdity of it, right. In the state of Idaho, to be an H VAC contractor, I need to go to be an apprentice for like two years for somebody and go through all this apprenticeship program just so I can put in these little bitcoin miners in the E system. Right. [01:15:26] Speaker B: I mean, you got to know some stuff that ain't rocket science. Yeah, it's. [01:15:30] Speaker A: No, it's not. [01:15:31] Speaker B: It's. [01:15:32] Speaker A: And. And they don't have any other mechanism. Like, I mean, I've got the technical aptitude and background where I could probably figure stuff out pretty quick and maybe, maybe I could use supplemental training or whatever. I don't need to be an apprentice for two years. Yeah. For someone to. To be putting in heat systems. So for the state of Idaho now, I mean, we just installed bitcoin miners. And so if someone wants to use the heat, that's on their own. And that's essentially where we're going with this, is that. [01:16:03] Speaker B: So now you kind of do the exact opposite, Right? [01:16:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep, exactly. So now we're a bitcoin equipment installer. We make sure that, you know, consult with people. They can get their electrician. I'm not going to put their wiring in for them. If they want to integrate it into their own system, they can get an H Vac contractor. I'm not going to do it for them, but I'll consult with their H Vac contractor on how to do it. And I'll consult with their plumber or whomever is going to integrate the system. And it's not hard to do. And we have some really good plumbers and they've put in some systems and they work like, amazing. So that's one example is our 40 by 60 building. The owner of the concrete plant built this shop separately for his own personal use. And we integrated radiant floor heat in it. And it uses a six unit fog hatching B6 tank to heat it. And that place is plenty warm. Plenty warm. Works like a champ. It's all passcode, I think. I think it's the first building built from the ground up to be heated with bitcoin. Wow. But I don't like to make claims like that because you can come across as arrogant or whatever. And everybody wants to be the first doing something. So somebody else knows of a building that did that before we started doing it in. I think it's 2023. We started the building, but I'm sure there's other people that have other projects too. But it, it works really well and it's very reliable. It's just running right now and then the owner can continue to mine. It just runs an evaporative heat, evaporative cooling system in it in the summer and it just pushes all the air out. It moves all the air through, cools it off and the machines can run full time. If it's profitable to run. It'll keep them going. [01:18:03] Speaker B: Hell yeah. [01:18:03] Speaker A: Until he upgrades its machines. [01:18:04] Speaker B: You know what, what setups are you most proud of? [01:18:12] Speaker A: Um, I think the snowmelt system is one for me because it really took a lot of risk on my part. Um, in my head I knew it would work just by concepts and principles. I knew that I would be able to build one. But in order to do that, I built the manifold by hand. I sweated all the copper together, ordered the components, built it all out, built the immersion integration to it, laid all the pecs in the concrete, hired the contractor, did the forms. And all of that stuff was a risk for me because I hadn't seen anybody do it and I didn't have a YouTube tutorial or anything know. And so, and, and then to have it work. [01:19:05] Speaker B: Is this in a, is this in a driveway? Where, like where is it exactly? [01:19:09] Speaker A: It's a, an 8 foot wide walking path at my house. [01:19:14] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. [01:19:16] Speaker A: We, we had to put in a, a good walking path and I thought, well, why don't I just make it heated so I don't have to shovel snow. [01:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:24] Speaker A: I don't have ice, you know. And so I also, I didn't, I did not insulate underneath it. And the reason I did not insulate underneath it is cuz I wanted it to be a dual purpose heat dump as well. And so even in the summertime it supports a heat dump. So you still just put stuff out. [01:19:43] Speaker B: There just to, just to get the temperature control? [01:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I can dump about 1.5 kilowatts of heat on a hot summer day and it just goes into the ground. [01:19:54] Speaker B: Wow. [01:19:55] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. And so I've, I've still got this miner running and it doesn't make any noise. Well, I mean you can hear the pump for the fluid, but it's like, it's quiet and it's Just dumping the heat. And it works exactly like I intended it to. [01:20:08] Speaker B: That's awesome. [01:20:09] Speaker A: And so, and that was one of my posts that got, I think, a lot of attention at first, and it proved a concept. You know, it. You can, you can use these things to provide luxury, Luxury heat for different things. And it's, it's really effective. The car wash too, I. I mean, we're pretty proud of that. Um, but I gotta give a lot of credit to the owner who really did the, the integration. He did all the piping and everything for his system based upon, you know, my input too, and I helped him out. And I mean, even the concrete plant, we're proud of that because, like, nobody really shown that he could do it. Yeah, we just kind of whipped a system up and put it together and built it. Oh, and honestly, I think my favorite is the bank. [01:20:59] Speaker B: The bank, the bank. That's ironic. You unpack the bank. [01:21:07] Speaker A: So in our town, Wells Fargo had a building. And the building was originally built, it was called the Custer county bank, and it's stone building. And Wells Fargo took it over. Eventually it went through different banks sold to different banks, and Wells Fargo owned it most recently. And then Wells Fargo left our town. They abandoned our little town. So now we have a credit union, and they're great, but we don't have a bank. Right. And there's a vault in there, and it's like, it's a bank. Well, I approached the owner a few years ago and I said, hey, I'd like to lease part of your bank to mine bitcoin in it. And he's like, what? I said, well, yeah, I mean, you got a good power feed. And I thought maybe we could mine some bitcoin here. And he's like, well, no, I think I'm going to mine some bitcoin here. So anyway, he ended up buying the equipment and putting in all the electrical for it. And now what used to be Wells Fargo is now a bitcoin mine. [01:22:10] Speaker B: That's amazing. That's fantastic. There's a wonderful metaphor in there. [01:22:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's pretty cool. It's like just the whole building is used to mine bitcoin now and other purposes. And it's heated with the bitcoin miners as well. [01:22:29] Speaker B: The safe will end up holding a bunch of private keys, hardware, wallets. [01:22:33] Speaker A: Well, I considered that it'd be cool to open it up as an exchange where you could sell equipment there, sell cold cards, maybe have a bitcoin ATM in there where people can buy directly if they want. Store their cold card in a safety deposit box. Learn more about bitcoin, Buy silver with their bitcoin. That'd be cool. But I've got just all these different examples, I mean, in different places where we try to just set up a really cool, innovative thing that people hadn't thought of before. Even in the little town of Clayton, which has seven people, we have a split unit apartment that's heated with two computers. And that place is smoking hot. The bar there in Clayton is heated with it. Wow. I would say per capita, I think the town of Chalice or Custer county, because we have a low population density. If you consider the actual use case of adoption where people are using their computers themselves for their own purposes, I think it's got one of the, or if not the highest per capita adoption in the country for, for individuals mining bitcoin. [01:23:56] Speaker B: Wow. [01:23:57] Speaker A: And they, they do it for heat. [01:23:59] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's awesome. [01:24:01] Speaker A: But you know, you go to a town like, like in Texas or something where they've got 10,000 miners and there's a small town next to it. I'm not counting that because, sure, people aren't using the, the miners. Right? Yeah, but, but yeah, there's, there's a lot of interest. And I'm also on the city council for my town and I brought up. I think, I think it'd be really smart, honestly, for the city to transition, doing that as well. We have things that we need to heat for the city. [01:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:29] Speaker A: Different. Well, houses, things like that. And there's no reason why the city couldn't offset it. But I think it is kind of difficult for some people to accept. They don't understand the concept of bitcoin. They think, like, if they mine bitcoin, they're stuck in the bitcoin ecosystem forever and they can't use it. [01:24:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:51] Speaker B: No. There's definitely still a shocking number of misconceptions about, like, like when, when I tell people that, you know, I live on a bitcoin standard, when they end up asking, can you even use it? [01:25:01] Speaker A: Or whatever. [01:25:02] Speaker B: I'm like, well, yeah, you just kind of like. I mean, it's just like the dollar. You just have like a bunch of services, right? You have like a bank that you know that you can use and apps that you can use, your cash app and you know, your PNC bank down the street. Well, you just know which ones in bitcoin do the same thing. But like, I have a debit card that I could just move bitcoin to very easily and Then go spend it. And then when I have leftover at the end of the month, I just move it back. You know, just. You just have to know what the tools and the services are the same as you're using anything. And the movement between back and forth is like so easy today. I mean like day and night, day and night. Comparison to four years ago. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Um, yeah, it is, it's a lot easier now. It's. The financial services have improved a lot. [01:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. What future project do you have? I'm, I'm personally I am always. I always have like 10 huge projects that I can't get to, but I really want to do. What's the, what's the one that you plan out in your head even though you know you can't get to it yet? [01:26:15] Speaker A: I have a, a house that I'm doing a remote district heating concept with. And so in a separate building, I have an actual 12s 21s running into six unit immersion tanks. [01:26:34] Speaker B: Okay. [01:26:35] Speaker A: And we're putting. Yeah, it is just the thing I can't quite get to quite yet. We're basically running an insulated distribution line that's PEX and it's in an insulated core and it's. We get the, that, that line from like a outdoor wood fired boiler supplier. Okay. You know where they would, you could, you could do that and then run the heated water to your house. It's the same concept, but the home is totally gutted right now. It's probably a year out from being completed and it's going to have the heat core for the home totally disassociated with being in the home at all. [01:27:14] Speaker B: Wow. [01:27:15] Speaker A: Okay. And so this is a good proof of concept of a district heating application because you've got to sell the heat. Think about like being a landlord. You know, a lot of people shit on real estate. They're like, oh, you know, get rid of your real estate and just buy bitcoin. [01:27:31] Speaker B: Real estate's a shitcoin. [01:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a shallow take. It really is because you can utilize your real estate to mine. Bitcoin. [01:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:39] Speaker A: And so if you, if you're a. [01:27:41] Speaker B: Landlord, for example, all of bitcoin in some way, shape or form has to have space and land, you know, like it's, they're all interdependent. Like, I mean, sure, I get it. It's like kind of funny like from the context of like I've invested in it and I just want to build equity and I'm just using it as like a A middle class savings account. Sure. Don't do that. Has nothing to do with whether or not real estate has any value. You still have to put something on land and you need to own the land. [01:28:10] Speaker A: It's a shallow take. When you own real estate, you own infrastructure. [01:28:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:14] Speaker A: If you own energy infrastructure, you own hash rate. But you can, if it's good energy. Right. It's cheap. So if I go and I take a rental property and I'm heating it with bitcoin, and then I just include all utilities in that property. Okay. What I'm doing is that I'm essentially selling the heat to the. The tenant because I'm going to need. I want the Internet to be operable anyway and I want them to keep the house clean. So I'm going to have the trash included. I don't want them storing trash and taking it to the dump. I want them to throw it away. Water is not really a significant expense. And when I look at all these things, if I have some type of controls on them and I just charge a base rate on a, you know, all utilities included rate for my tenant, I'm actually capturing a premium on the rent. And I'm selling the heat from production to them. And it's like, oh, you want more heat? Please turn it up. Yeah, turn it all the way up. [01:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:29:20] Speaker A: Use all the heat you want. Make it super hot. Melt that snow on the sidewalk. I don't care. Yeah, right. [01:29:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:28] Speaker A: And. And people would get a. Pay a premium for that. And it's more simple for them to rent, so less headache. Same way goes with selling the heat. Like, for example, the bank I told you about, we've got 24 machines running. And so it's, you know, sucking down quite a bit of power and it's making quite a bit of heat. And there's no reason why surrounding properties can't be heated in the same model. [01:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah, you could. Then you sell heat as a, as a service from a ti. Like your own little tiny heat grid. [01:30:03] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Okay. And then we look at other ways to leverage. How do we increase our profit margin? So. Well, what if I can establish a curtailment model with my local utility to where I agree to curtail, you know, bitcoin operations a certain amount. I may not turn them all the way off, but maybe we turn them down 30% when. When they sense that they're gonna need more energy for other things. And so what that does is it smooths the demand curve, you know, for the power company, which in turn stabilizes Load and. Well, yeah, stabilizes load and it lowers the costs. [01:30:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:49] Speaker A: And we can, we can bring in more energy like solar, like wind, you know, and, and we can absorb those peaks and troughs and they're not turning up and down the baseload power to account for the more green energy. You know, Hydroelectric is, is the most pure form of solar power. [01:31:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:09] Speaker A: And, and you know, I tell people that and they're like, what do you mean? And they just don't understand or think about how the water got there in the first place. Yeah, right. [01:31:21] Speaker B: The sun. Have you ever heard about the greenhouse effect? [01:31:26] Speaker A: Yeah. The Coriolis, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the water evaporates out of the ocean. It comes in clouds and it dumps. But it's not just straight up power. It's also, it's potential energy. So it's essentially a battery also tied into a reservoir where you have that demand that you can pull from. [01:31:50] Speaker B: It's a gravity battery. [01:31:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it is. And so it's, and it's pure and it's clean. And so like, even if you do have a dam, people say, oh, it ruins the ecosystem. That just makes a different ecosystem. Now you have an underwater ecosystem. Okay. And we have, we have water that we can use and control. And so in terms of like, environmental impact, I would rather have a reservoir than a bunch of batteries. Right. What do I do with all those batteries? How do I recycle them? How do I, where do they go? [01:32:24] Speaker B: Huge manufacturing things, they, they, they run out of time. They, they degrade over time. The horrible poisonous chemicals for the environment. Mining that goes involved into getting the rare earth for the batteries are insane. Like literally just make a giant pool and you've made a battery. Like just, just sit it up above the thing, get a bunch of, get a bunch of dirt, come around it and put, you know, 20 million gallons or whatever the hell it is in it and then put an exit hole with a turbine done. Huge battery to run your city. [01:32:55] Speaker A: Obviously that doesn't work everywhere. Sure, sure, sure. But we have so much gradient and hillsides and, and elevation changes. You could do it, right? And so like, we already have a lot of these answers and we don't, we don't need to destroy our landscape with a bunch of solar panels that are intermittent, especially about higher latitudes. They don't work that well. Maybe down in Texas and California you get more power out of them because lower latitude. And I could see the applications when you don't have water, but that doesn't mean it's the right answer everywhere. And that's the other thing. A lot of the, especially the lefties that don't like bitcoin, they're, they're the big solar panel and wind advocates and they don't want to look at the actual environmental implications of those kind of things either. [01:33:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:33:47] Speaker A: So I just think there's a lot of potential there that we're not allowed to. [01:33:50] Speaker B: The means over the ends and they, they excuse it all with the ends, but if you give them the ends in the way that they don't want to get it. Nah, nah. [01:34:01] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. [01:34:06] Speaker B: God forbid we take away government money. [01:34:08] Speaker A: No, no. Yeah. So, but I, I think, I think there, there's room for the government to stipulate, for example, that any new power plant form of production, and they don't have to say bitcoin, but they should say any, any power plant produced has to have the ability to have some type of on site demand consumption that is, can be curtailed in order to smooth the grid. Like that should be like kind of a code thing where. And that way you don't have this issue of the grid being unstable. Like, and that's kind of, you know, where we're going now with if they put in a bunch of windmills here in Idaho and a bunch of solar panels, when the wind blows and the sun comes out of the clouds, they go over to these hydroelectric dams and they turn down production. And it's hard. It's like a big giant trying to respond to these different loads. Whereas if they put in the code, for example, every windmill has to have the equivalent bitcoin mining capacity. And we won't say bitcoin mining, we'll just say variable demand load capacity. [01:35:23] Speaker B: Yeah. 5% load variation. [01:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It would align with President Trump's executive strategy of a cost neutral basis for bitcoin acquisition. And it would help strengthen our country with the bitcoin strategic reserve. [01:35:40] Speaker B: That is very interesting. That is very interesting. And I think about it too. One of the things that's fascinated me more than anything is just the methane flare and the number of people who are doing that, like when it flared gas on oil mines and stuff is the oil rig is you literally just have lost energy. And it aligns in every possible way. And it's so funny too, is that somebody was actually posting about, hell, it might even been you, I don't even know. But I actually think it was Steve Barber. But he was posting about it and somehow his, his post like just kind of went out into the normie land. Showing it's like, look, we cap this flare gas and we have a generator and we put it on two generators and it's mining bitcoin. And speaking of lefties, so many people jumped in and were like, you're destroying the environment, you scum, scammers. Like, did you even, do you even think about anything? Like, they are literally, it's like the perfect example of the market finds a use for everything and refuses to have any waste if there's any way to take advantage of it. And in every sense of the ends they say they are trying to achieve, it's like 10 times better. It does nothing but help all of the metrics and all of the things that they are trying to get out of it. And, and it's like they, they love, they're in love with their own ignorance, you know, because their ignorance makes everything so simple. It makes everything so black and white. And they can just hate bitcoin or they can just hate anything that runs. Any, an engine. Oh, I just hate engines. Engines. Engines suck, you know. [01:37:30] Speaker A: Damn those engines. [01:37:31] Speaker B: Damn those, damn those damn engines. And it's just like, and I, I, I tried to respond to like a few of them or whatever. I was like, guys, like, even the thing that you are, you are angry about is so much better in this situation. We're literally talking about. They were just burning it off, which doesn't even catch most of it. It doesn't. Your, your, all your greenhouse gases that you're supposedly you're all concerned about because God forbid we have a greenhouse effect on the planet earth, but all those things that you're concerned about just got vastly diminished and is far cleaner and more, more completely burned. There's no leakage or anything in this compared to the other. And they are making money and they are securing the bitcoin network, which has nothing to do with you. How the hell could you be mad about this? Engines are bad. [01:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's tough to deal with them. I, I, I gotta say though, it's, I think another thing that contributes to the adoption where I live is the, it's a pretty conservative area. [01:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:38:38] Speaker A: You know, and people see the merits. They're more, more logical and less emotional. [01:38:44] Speaker B: So I, I think it's. Did you, do you listen to the show at all? And have you heard the, the piece that I read on Urban Bug Men. [01:38:55] Speaker A: And no, I'm gonna have to listen. [01:38:56] Speaker B: To that, listen to that one because there's a very, very interesting, like, very fascinating the theory about model collapse, AI, model collapse and how it relates to societies. And one of the really crazy connections is, and, and this is such an easy like connection to make in hindsight. And it is always something that I've thought. But the thing about rural areas, why they're more conservative but also just why they're more attached to reality is because any place that has the denser the boots and hammers there are the more common sense. And it's because they're, the things that they interact with are closer to the real world. You know, like you actually go out and you deal with a tree that's in your way and you, you, you have a, you have a truck that has to move a thing that's heavy. You have pipes that have to get water from A to B and that have to heat a thing that's frozen. But people who live in cities, like 99% of the people are so disconnected from that. It's the, the quote, the quote in that article that I just loved because I've heard people say this kind of things that are this stupid, but I'd never put it in this context is the whole, we don't need farmers because food comes from the grocery store. You know, they're so disconnected. [01:40:20] Speaker A: Like what I was saying about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. [01:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:24] Speaker A: And you know, it's like people that have to fulfill the base of the pyramid themselves. Like where we live, if you. Well, not so much anymore with a lot of my folks, but if you don't chop your own wood, you're going to be cold. [01:40:40] Speaker B: Right. [01:40:41] Speaker A: We don't have a homeless problem where I live. Right. Yeah, yeah. We have people that live in their rv. Okay. Or that you could call them homeless, I guess. But everybody works, for the most part does something to sustain their own way of life and they have some obligation to fulfill the base of their pyramid, whatever that is. And in the cities, everything's just there, you know, you, your food. [01:41:12] Speaker B: People go their whole lives not even knowing how they get there. [01:41:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:41:16] Speaker B: Comes from Idaho, man. [01:41:19] Speaker A: And it's like their, it's like their pyramid gets inverted and they, they think that their art or their whatever is the most important thing to them. Right. Because everything else is just given to them. [01:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:29] Speaker A: And, and so, but ideally, you know, I think some of the most creative things come from people that are self sufficient and can do their own, do their own things from the ground up. And once they've provided all that for themselves, they focus on creative things that are really of value. Because their time is more. More precious. But I think. Exactly right. That's exactly the way it is in the cities and more. More dense urban areas. [01:42:01] Speaker B: I bet you would really like that article. [01:42:03] Speaker A: You should. [01:42:03] Speaker B: You should listen. I don't remember which. Which one it is. There's probably like 10. 10 or 15 back in the. In the show. It's such a. It's such a cool. Such a cool theory because it. It. It talks about, like, it's talking about AI models and like, how. How and why fidelity is lost when they are trained on their own output, even if all of the content is supposedly higher quality. You know, you. You pick and choose all the best things, but what actually happens to the. The weights of the model itself, and there's a bunch of fantastic analogies to. To. To think about that. But it's funny too, you know, like, where we are in this stage of, I guess, technological, the societal shift as well as kind of a political shift is, I think kind of blue collar's cool again, you know, like. Like we're kind of heading in that direction that we're just realizing we have kind of financialized ourselves into a black hole sort of. And there's this cycle of society that kind of like shoves you back outside, you know, it cuts your heat off, cuts your electricity off at some point. And you have to realize what the real world is actually like. [01:43:22] Speaker A: That's the main reason I like doing this bitcoin stuff so much, because it's connected to the real world. It's proof of work. I can't sit on my computer and come up with a more logical code base or a different way to attack and get more bitcoin. I've got to actually go out there and create something, some physical thing. [01:43:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:47] Speaker A: And if I don't do that, it doesn't work. Right. So it is. It is proof of work at the very most fundamental level. And I love it. All right. [01:44:00] Speaker B: No, I know. It's so. It's so cool from a technological perspective, but also philosophically, is that, you know, there is literally a hash. There is literally a string of characters that you can just know there are millions of people like you out there putting hammer to nail, like connecting pipes, running a radiator, getting these systems actually in the real world using real energy. These things must exist because of how many zeros there are at the beginning of that block, you know, and ultimately it is those things in the real world that keep the thing alive. Like, it is. It is a. It is a living being. Like, I really Love. Brandon Quiddam's thing is that it's like this. It's this, we're building this sort of like economic fungus of some sort, you know, that we are where it, it consumes energy and it produces trust. And you know, sometimes I get kind of jaded that like, okay, yeah, Bitcoin is here, it's just software. We're gonna argue about filters and all this stuff, but like, when you really go back to like, what is this thing? It is so wild that this, even that, that it works at all and how attached to the real world it is, you know, it's crazy. [01:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, one thing we didn't touch on at all is the knots versus core debate. [01:45:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm curious, what's your, what's your take on all this, this fuss right now? [01:45:50] Speaker A: I think sometimes a few different caveats here. I know, like the one white paper, you know, and bitcoin was described originally as money. But what if it's not just money? What if it's got other purposes that we don't realize quite yet? And what if those purposes did serve some u utilitarian purpose that we just don't acknowledge or know yet? Not saying that there is or isn't. I'm just saying it goes back to inscribing data on these things and we could talk about junk filters and all that stuff. Second, the hash price is really low right now. If the hash price gets too low, that's kind of a problem for the network in a sense where you're not going to have as many folks mining like in. And it doesn't serve its purpose of developing the grid. For example, if you don't get as much money mining, you're not going to have the money to develop the grid. And so my question is, what is going to provide a higher rate of return for mining? And we can get through the ideological perspectives, and I'm sure there's many, and I'm not saying they're valid or not valid. I see the point of limiting data that can be put into the transactions, but at the same point, if data can be put into the transactions and we can utilize it like we get an example. I think the New Testament's in one of the blocks. [01:47:50] Speaker B: No kidding, right? That makes sense. Yeah. Bunch of WikiLeaks files in there too. What? Is a bunch of WikiLeaks files in there too? Yeah, yeah. [01:48:01] Speaker A: And I'm sure there's things in there that are good. [01:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:04] Speaker A: Right. But is it really the right thing to do to to prevent people from putting data in it. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Maybe using it strictly for financial reasons isn't the best use case of bitcoin for humanity. Maybe it is, but I feel like a lot of the knots versus core stuff is like, what people want it to be used as instead of kind of going with the flow and seeing what it will be used as. And I mean, there's, there's drawbacks to that too. Like. [01:48:44] Speaker B: Right. [01:48:45] Speaker A: Like, I know there's concerns about people putting really nefarious stuff in there. [01:48:51] Speaker B: Right. [01:48:53] Speaker A: But maybe the answer to fix that isn't total censorship. I don't know. I'm not an engineer in that aspect. But what I can tell you is that if the hash price gets too low, it makes it unprofitable to mine. There's other implications to that at a fundamental level, above or maybe even below, if you want to say fundamental, on people's ideology of what it should be used for. So I think people should really consider that and what they're, what they want to do. [01:49:32] Speaker B: There's something to be said for not prescribing what its most valuable use case is. Let's go to the filter side for a second. [01:49:46] Speaker A: Is. [01:49:49] Speaker B: I think, and I've talked about this like quite a bit on the show, is that there is essentially no greater use case than, there's no greater utility in society than money. Because all things are attached to money. They, they all stem from the ability to organize and coordinate it. And so nothing essentially downstream, you know, like, like, you know, crochet kittens can never have a bigger market than energy needed to create crochet kittens. Right? Like, like you, you have a clear hierarchy of capital and like, what is needed. And all economic activity needs coordination. All economic activity at scale needs coordination. And the, the single most critical coordination tool that we have is money. But there is a question about what's the capital? What's the expense worth spending to get one money to work versus a different money, you know, like, what's the upfront cost versus the ongoing cost in that coordination? When it comes to saving Bitcoin long term because it's only 21 million versus paying fiat now because it's, it's fast, even though it's, you know, it's trusted or whatever. It may carry a lower fee if we're comparing it to onchain, but usually not. Bitcoin's pretty low on chain fees and has been for much longer than I thought it would be. [01:51:19] Speaker A: Well, right. They are now, but let's just say everybody's putting a bunch of shit on the blockchain. They'd be a lot higher. Right. But wouldn't we get past those fees if people use lightning? [01:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The idea is aggregate for the sake of its economic value. Right. So like, I mean I, I will say like without a doubt, despite my general philosophical differences with, with the old, the whole idea of like how to treat arbitrary data and whether or not it should just be kind of like a, just, just put it over here sort of thing. I appreciate those arguments and I, I feel like I identify a lot with them. At the exact same time I rushed to go home and turn my miners on when there was that huge feast buy with the, with the, the big ordinal thing that happened during this one point and I was like, I just pump it. I just blow this out the window. I don't, I don't care if I don't need it to be hot in here. I'm gonna mine some bitcoin right now. [01:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:28] Speaker B: So from that point, from that standpoint, it was funny, I did some sort of a tweet like that where I was like, spammers are ruining Bitcoin, but don't stop just yet. [01:52:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:41] Speaker B: Can't remember exactly how I put it. [01:52:43] Speaker A: But it was just cracking. No, no, I would say spammers. If, if the use case of Bitcoin is for everybody to do all their transactions on the network and we only want to use it in that aspect, I could see where there's a problem. You know, but maybe, maybe the things are. Complementary to each other. You know, maybe if the transaction fees are higher and it costs more money to use the network, you know, it's, it's synergistic in a sense where you're, you're generating more money to support the network due to outputs to miners. The transactions are getting kind of pushed out to secondary layers, forces, transaction density. Yeah, yeah. And, and so it's not as big a deal as, as it might come out, you know, to be. Like maybe, maybe the use case of Bitcoin is more as a store of value rather than a day to day transaction method. Right. [01:53:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it, I think it makes sense to say on chain that there's, there's kind of an argument there when it comes to like liquidity or transactions. But honestly, I really think that if there's no technological barrier, I think there's like a false dichotomy. There is that store of value and medium of exchange. Like unless there is an explicit Technological or trust shift or technological barrier, a store of value becomes a medium of exchange. Like whatever you most desire to hold is going to be the thing that you most desire in payment. Unless its use in payment is fundamentally different than holding it. Which is kind of the case with gold is right. Is that when you have gold tokens or gold dollars, it just doesn't. It ends up not having the relevant scarcity of gold because people just print dollars and unbacked by gold. So I really think that's. A bunch of people will get on about that and be like, oh, it's a store of values and medium exchange. It's like, no, if it's a good store value, it's going to be a medium of exchange because it's a freaking protocol, man. It's. It's like saying that the Internet's not going to be able to scale to all the people in the world. It's like, dude, it's a freaking open permissionless protocol. It's totally going to scale because we can. There is no capacity. There's no limit to human innovation. We're going to figure it out. It's just a matter of time really. Anyway, sidetracked. But yeah. [01:55:17] Speaker A: So we'll see how that all shakes out. I don't know. I don't really weigh in on that too much on the interwebs because I think there's people that are a lot more technically suited to talk about that than myself. But just from a mining operations perspective, I want higher hash price and it's not even a greedy thing. It's like if you don't do that. We're reaching now the physical limits of capability for ASIC miners. Right. We're getting to a point where they're probably not going to get much more density. And you know, amp Miner, for example, you look like the S19K Pro. Okay. It was 2,800 watts roughly. And then they're like, all right, well we got this S21 now and it makes 200 terahash versus 120. Well, it also runs at 3,600 watts. [01:56:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:13] Speaker A: So it's kind of a little marketing game they play where they pack a higher chip density in there and it just consumes more power to reach a higher hash rate. It's really not that much more. [01:56:22] Speaker B: It's like having two miners as opposed to one. Well yeah, of course you get higher. [01:56:26] Speaker A: Like one point. [01:56:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:56:30] Speaker A: And so there, there comes a point where you can only fit so much hash rate on any given power. [01:56:38] Speaker B: Feed. [01:56:39] Speaker A: And with the hash price going down, you know that you're going to have more and more miners go offline. And that's one reason why I think everything will go towards heat. Because they're. The basic cost to operate is zero. [01:56:52] Speaker B: The move to denser chips will slow down considerably. And I think we've kind of reached the end of Moore's Law when it comes to that because, like the nanometer, the three nanometer chips or whatever the hell is now is literally reaching like the thermodynamic limit of being able to create a gate. [01:57:12] Speaker A: Right. And how heat tolerant are they? [01:57:14] Speaker B: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:57:16] Speaker A: So are they really as capable of heating? And my experience with these S21s versus the S19s is no, they're not. They can't get as hot. And so, I mean, is that an issue? Can we make a really heavy heating chip that's, that's got those, you know, really small circuits in it? And, and on top of that, if, if everything is moving towards home mining, that's just another aspect of it. We'll need, you know, a less dense chip maybe to provide more heat, but maybe not. Maybe these newer chips can handle the heat. Just saying there's a lot to consider about it. [01:57:56] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to keep you too long. We're already in two hours. I told you. [01:58:06] Speaker A: We could just. I don't know how long these things normally go. [01:58:08] Speaker B: We could just rip on this. Two. Two hours is not, it's not uncommon anymore. I used to try to get it to like an hour, but that fell apart really quick. But maybe, maybe aside from just kind of like filters and stuff, like give, give your. I'm curious for your thoughts on, like, where we are. What's your kind of like future projection? Are you trying to do this? Do you see a path to doing this like full time? Is this something that you would like to have your side gig be like the gig? And more importantly, maybe how do you see this in the context of, like, resiliency and sovereignty? Sovereignty and what is a very, very politically messy age? [01:58:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I do, I do want to make this bigger. What I don't want to do is get mired in some type of local model where, you know, eventually you're capped on, you know, your local population and all that? I think it's, it's much bigger than that. I thought about doing a franchise model. The problem. And this is one reason I don't mind helping people. I'll help Whoever. If somebody asks questions and they want to start their own business locally, I don't care. I don't have any interest in like controlling and hoarding all this info. And I want to help everybody. But where I do see a big opportunity and a biggest chance to help our country, because I really do believe that bitcoin has the potential to, I don't want to say save the world, but I think it could make things a lot better for everybody. Mm. And I am registered as a federal contractor. Softwarm LLC has got a CAGE code. I see a lot of potential with government capability in increasing the strategic bitcoin reserve on a cost neutral basis by heating in federal buildings and locations and bases and, and places where they use electricity or other cost comparable methods to mine bitcoin heat. And it could provide a significant amount of bitcoin for the government and even in the sense of operating on aircraft. I know that sounds stupid, but you've got these big airplanes flying around and there's no reason why they couldn't have a minor or two just friends off the electrical when they're flying. It's just any. Capturing any waste energy is what I'm getting at. Right. There's. I'm not saying fly an airplane just to mine bitcoin, but if you're flying an airplane and it's got a bunch of excess energy, you've got Internet connection. I mean, why not just mine some bitcoin? Right. It's just a. And it wouldn't be hard to implement either. It'd be pretty easy. So. [02:01:02] Speaker B: And you gotta keep the cabin warm. [02:01:05] Speaker A: Well, yeah, but you know that, I mean, engines do that. That's what the, that's where the heat comes from. A lot of people. [02:01:10] Speaker B: Oh, no kidding. Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. Oh, that's kind of dope. [02:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So when you fly, it's all fresh air, all the time. Then the engines, before it gets to the combustion chamber, it's blood off the engines. And there's also ram air that comes in and there's mixing valves and. And so your air in an airplane is always fresh. [02:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:01:28] Speaker A: When I see people with a mask on in an airplane, I'm like, why, bro? I think it's recirculated or like, you know. [02:01:35] Speaker B: Oh, that's funny. [02:01:37] Speaker A: But I, I think there's like, the government has a lot of potential to shore up the security of our country with the strategic bitcoin reserve and to utilize this waste energy or other locations where they need to heat with it. And I, I think that that would be an angle that I'm, I'm really looking at doing. But outside of that, I have a lot of focus on my primary company right now. And. And so I, if anybody, you know, ever wants to reach out to me and wants, you know, have a reasonable conversation or if you want to get equipment, I can help you out. I do a lot of fog action equipment and it's not that I really prefer to buy from an overseas manufacturer or anything like that. It's just that I haven't found any comparable US made manufacturers yet. [02:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm really curious about Block and what they've been doing. Have you seen the stuff about their new miners? The like super modular setup and stuff that should be coming to market soon? [02:02:48] Speaker A: Are they miners or are they support equipment like tanks? [02:02:51] Speaker B: I want to say I saw something about, I could be wrong. It's mostly miners. And I know they're like selling like their miners and stuff, but there's basically like casing and infrastructure which is all like separate. So you can change out psu, fans, case boards. Like they're all like chunk, chunk, you know. [02:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:03:11] Speaker B: And it is specifically designed to also like ready to go in immersion tanks. I am not sure if they have. I don't, I don't think they're actually making an immersion tank though. So I may be conflating things that are not the same. [02:03:29] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I look at things in two different ways. You got the tank and this is why I like immersion. Going back to that, you've got the tank which supports the equipment and then you've got the equipment which in the grand scheme of things, it's going to have to be made in America or America design. Because the federal acquisition regulation requires computer equipment to not come from China. [02:03:53] Speaker B: No kidding. [02:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:03:55] Speaker B: That's interesting. Right. [02:03:57] Speaker A: On federal installations and computer network systems, as a federal contractor, you have to assert that your equipment that you're using for that purpose. [02:04:06] Speaker B: I guess that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. [02:04:08] Speaker A: Well, yeah, because they're embedding things in the boards. Right. The, the Chinese are, the, the commies are going to get us, bro, if we don't watch our back. Okay. So I'm just saying they, they, they do have the history of embedding things in the actual circuit boards that aren't software. You know, they're actual hardware in there that are back doors to stuff. And so having American equipment, tanks aren't an issue. Right. We don't have an issue with, with tanks. They don't connect to the Internet. They just pump fluid Around. Right. But when you get into the actual machines, you know, ant miners are made in China or Indonesia. Right. Chinese design. And they're sure they're okay equipment, but. And now they're, they're locking their firmware out where you can't put aftermarket firmware on them. You know, and to the extent that I can open up and audit that. Going back to our comments about cars and AI analysis of firmware or whatever, it's difficult for me to open up a, an ant miner and look at the control board or the hash board. [02:05:22] Speaker B: No. [02:05:22] Speaker A: Let's go make sure there's no backdoor chips on there. [02:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:25] Speaker A: You know, I'm not, I don't have a microscope to check that and I don't even know what the hell I'm looking at. [02:05:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:30] Speaker A: Right. So there's, there needs to be some American made equipment. We just need to do that. It's like we need to accept the point that this, that Bitcoin is a, is an issue that we need to take control of as a country. Like, it's a national security issue. And that'll all come eventually. I want to be a part of that as a federal contractor, I think, Hell yeah. [02:05:59] Speaker B: What would be. Last question is, somebody's thinking about getting started. They live in a small town. What's your, what's your best advice on how they, you know, intro to somebody or how they. [02:06:15] Speaker A: Where. [02:06:15] Speaker B: Where do they start? [02:06:17] Speaker A: First thing they need to do. [02:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:06:19] Speaker A: Is quit trying to analyze everything and just build some. You know, I swear, man, I get, you know, like, you see some people especially, I don't know what it is with Europeans and people overseas, but they just overanalyze everything, you know? Like it's, it's like, dude, you don't need to analyze the BTU output of the stainless steel tube. Okay. Like, it doesn't matter. Just hook it up. [02:06:49] Speaker B: 90% of what you buy doesn't even think at that level about things. Like, most stuff is just kind of like stuck together and it works and then they, they package it and they do all the. It's scientifically proven in the marketing. That's just, that's the dude making the commercial. Not the, not the one building. [02:07:07] Speaker A: There's. There's one guy, I won't, I won't say who it was, but he's like, you know, I showed him a, the picture of my setup and he comments on X and he's like, well, you know that. That stainless steel tube that, that projects one foot into the fluid is losing a massive amount of heat. And I'm like. And I just, I groked it and I'm like, grok, you know, calculate the, the heat loss here and, and let me know. And it's like, it's insignificant, right? [02:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:34] Speaker A: Of course it could not accept it. [02:07:35] Speaker B: Of course it is. [02:07:36] Speaker A: He could not accept. [02:07:37] Speaker B: It's a foot of pipe. [02:07:39] Speaker A: Just overanalyzing everything, you know. And honestly, if you just hook it up, the computer firmware like with braiins OS will adjust itself. [02:07:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That stuff is pretty amazing now. Yeah. How Brains works and literally like pushes more to chips that have like high, high quality output and less to low quality chips. It's like Brains firmware is pretty dope. [02:08:02] Speaker A: So if you want to start locally, the first thing I would say is build a system that meets your local needs, that is functional, that you can show somebody. Your next step is to go find somebody that is willing to let you install something. And you should really consider paying for the equipment and allowing and working with them to install it. And maybe do like a hash split agreement or something like that where until you get your money back, you do like a 50, 50 split or a 9010 split or something like that where they pay the power and then after they pay you back in Bitcoin, basically you given the equipment or something like that. [02:08:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:08:44] Speaker A: Make it, make it a deal where someone can't say no and then do that a couple times and just be generous with people and fair. And then eventually, I mean, I don't have anybody that I've worked with that doesn't like them. [02:09:00] Speaker B: That's awesome. [02:09:00] Speaker A: I haven't had any customer complaints. Nobody wants it out. [02:09:03] Speaker B: 100 customer service rating. [02:09:05] Speaker A: Oh yeah. You know, and, but the one thing I do have concerns about now is that the, the equipment is getting older and starting to attrition. They're going to see their profit margin shift and that I'm going to see some people who continue to operate their S19s in a manner that's unprofitable and then they're going to be upset that their bill's high, they're not getting as much money. You know, they need to change their user behavior. [02:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:09:30] Speaker A: And so that's something I'm going to have to deal with. But yeah, that's, that's, that would be my advice. And you know, really look, and you gotta understand your, your value proposition to people too. Like if you've got cheap natural gas in your local area, the only people you're gonna be able to market to are Those that don't have natural gas at their location. So don't try to go sell something that isn't a good value proposition for people. [02:09:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, we'll take that. Just go build shit. I love it. [02:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah, just build it. [02:10:08] Speaker B: Dude. Thanks for coming on the show. This was. This was really cool. Impressed with all the stuff you're building. It's endlessly fascinating to me. Are you going to the Heat Punk Conference, by the way? [02:10:21] Speaker A: I am. [02:10:22] Speaker B: Hey, that's awesome. That's awesome. Say hey, Tom. No, no, I got invited and I really, I really wanted to go, but it got. I had already allocated my four conferences this year, but I am very, very likely to be going next year because they kind of got me now and I'm hooked. And now I really want to go to the Heat Bond Conference. So I'll probably see you next year. We'll hang out. [02:10:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm looking forward to. I've talked with Tyler for a while before he wrote the book and stuff, you know, and so now it's kind of neat to go see people like minded, you know, and I don't know, man, I. I never expected to get so much attention from certain people, you know, just in building stuff. [02:11:07] Speaker B: Building cool, man. Everybody loves. Everybody loves if you build cool. What are you talking about? [02:11:13] Speaker A: Just build it, you know? [02:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah, dude. [02:11:16] Speaker A: But, yeah, looking forward to it. [02:11:18] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man. Actually, I'll have links to your stuff, but your ex is just Soft Warm llc, Is that right? Anything else to point people to? [02:11:35] Speaker A: I mean, I do have a. A website mining heater.com, i think, but I don't. I haven't built it out and it's. It goes back. So, like, with what I'm going to say right now, is it going to be on the podcast? [02:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:11:50] Speaker A: Okay, well, after we're done, I'll talk to you a little bit more about my other job and everything, but. [02:11:55] Speaker B: All right. All right, sounds good. All right, well, yeah, I'll put any links, anything you want to send me, and everybody can easily go get it down in the show notes. [02:12:05] Speaker A: Okay, that sounds Good. Yeah. Mining heater.com is my, my website, but it's not built out. You can contact me through that. It's. It's got a good contact form. It goes to my email. Probably better than DMs on. On X. Because you can't send me DMS unless I follow you. And I don't just want to follow everybody to get dms. [02:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you mean. All right, dude, well, I'll let you go. Appreciate it again. Big on audible later guys. And that will wrap us up. Do not forget to check out the description. There will be links to Softworm LLC and any of the other things that he mentioned as well as I'll follow up to make sure that we have all the links and all the details so that you can dig into some of these projects. I'll try to gather some of my favorite posts too, so just so that you can see them. It's such a cool thing. And also reach out to me and not the greatest source, but also to Cade. If you want to build your own project and to remember that you can just go do things, don't overanalyze, just go build it. And I promise that even if it doesn't turn out perfect or exactly like you think or as profitable as you think, you're going to love that you did it and you're probably going to want to do another one. So if you are a tinkerer or you just want to be more meaningfully involved in bitcoin, this is such a great way to do it and it's such a fun project. And what he's doing with Software LLC just shows how creative and varied you can get with what you're trying to build. Go out there and do it with that. Thank you guys for listening. Follow both of us. Check out the show. Send it to everybody that you know in bitcoin or elsewhere, especially the people who think mining is just a scam or a waste of energy. Give them this episode and I will catch you on the next one. I am Guy Swan and until then, everybody, that's my two sets. Sam.