Guy's Roundtable_001 - 85% Bitcoin Tax, Bitaxe, Big Banks, and a Shitcoin Trojan Horse

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What is up, guys? [00:00:01] Speaker B: I am Guy Swan, and while we do cover many news items on this show, it has never really been a focus. [00:00:11] Speaker A: So it's not uncommon for people to. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Ask me about a situation or an event that I've never really covered on the show because it either didn't feel like it warranted a full episode, or. [00:00:21] Speaker A: There was just no great writing about. [00:00:24] Speaker B: The event that I felt was worth. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Digging into on the show. [00:00:28] Speaker B: And Ive always wanted the bitcoin audible reads to be more timeless, to be relevant for as long as possible. And so I felt like it was time for a dedicated series focused entirely on the news and events in the space. And so Ive assembled a group of bitcoiners who have been in this space for a really long time and who, I think each brings something unique and really interesting insight on the news and major events that have happened in the space currently. This is planned as a monthly recap. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Of all the major news and events that have happened in the bitcoin and decentralized world. [00:01:07] Speaker B: The one stop shop for everything that you need to know. And so I hope you enjoy the. [00:01:15] Speaker A: First episode of Guy's roundtable. [00:01:27] Speaker B: What is up, guys? Welcome back to the show. This is the first episode of Guys. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Roundtable, and I have assembled quite the team. [00:01:39] Speaker B: These are all people that I have disagreed with in many different ways on many different topics, but we always have a fascinating discussion when we disagree. So I think this will be a really great base in order to cover a lot of the news items, and I want to go through as many. [00:01:55] Speaker A: Of the news and events that have. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Happened in this space. This will be August 2024, which is not quite the end of August yet, so there may still be a couple of things that happen at the end of the month that get rolled over into the next one. And this will be a little bit more streamlined when we have everything concrete on the back end and how we're doing it and scheduling. So our roundtable right now is myself, bitcoin mechanic, my brother, Jeff Swan, and then Steve Jeffress. Simple Steve, who always seems to have a really unique and individual take on things. In fact, that's the whole crew. That's what I love about this crew. And I think. I think you're really going to enjoy this. I had an absolute blast, and I am excited that we can keep this going. I think it's going to be really fun just to have a news focused event or a news focused show where we can just go through all of the major news items and just riff and dig into how we think they apply what we think about them and give you kind of a one stop shop, a one place to get a recap of everything that's been going on for the month. If you want to dig into anything deeper or more specific, that'll be a great way for me to branch off of this with a guy's take episode or a read that digs into it more deeply and see what you're interested. [00:03:19] Speaker A: In hearing more about. [00:03:21] Speaker B: So with that, a shout out to. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Coinkite and the cold card hardware wallet. [00:03:25] Speaker B: For keeping my bitcoin safe and just making awesome hardware security devices to protect your bitcoin. I have been an incredibly long time user of all of their tools and their hardware devices and a big fan of. And it is just awesome having them support the show. Don't forget my discount code, bitcoin. Audible is right down there in the show notes. In the description, you'll find a link. Super easy, super convenient. [00:03:49] Speaker A: You are welcome. [00:03:51] Speaker B: All right, with that, let's get into it. This is the first episode of Guys Roundtable. Welcome to the first roundtable, our news roundup for the month of August, which we're not quite done with August, so who knows what happens in the next seven days. But, uh, we have got, uh, bitcoin mechanic, uh, Steve. Steve uses. Is it Steve uses words or Steve using words? Is that your. Your. [00:04:23] Speaker C: No, I changed my Twitter name. I'm just simple Steve now. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Simple Steve. That's right. That's right. Simple Steve. [00:04:30] Speaker C: Still using words, though. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Still using words. Still using words. And then for some reason, my brother here is. My brother is here. [00:04:38] Speaker D: Jeff Swan, I'm the guy that's listening to more about bitcoin than anyone you know. [00:04:41] Speaker B: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Um, let's go around the roundtable here. Um, I don't know what your orientation is. Let's go over. Jeff Swan, you're. You're. You're to my right over here. So, Jeff Swan, why don't you start? Why are you here? [00:04:59] Speaker D: Um, because you told me to. I don't know. That's a. Because. [00:05:04] Speaker B: That is true. [00:05:04] Speaker D: Because we've been answering. [00:05:07] Speaker E: Start with that. [00:05:08] Speaker D: We've been doing this. We've been doing this bitcoin thing for a really long time. And. And so, you know, I might have something interesting to say once in a while. I don't know. [00:05:20] Speaker B: Probably my brother got into bitcoin about an hour before I did. [00:05:25] Speaker D: Yeah, something like that. Like maybe. Maybe a half hour. I don't know. [00:05:29] Speaker E: Yeah, and then last, man. [00:05:32] Speaker B: That's all it matters. Second place is second place. [00:05:39] Speaker D: Second best. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Mechanic. What is up, man? Thank you for joining us. [00:05:50] Speaker E: I'm all right. I'm good. I guess I've been here since 2011, and that's it. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Wait a second. Are we all class of 2011? [00:06:02] Speaker C: I am class of 2011. Yep. [00:06:05] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, my God. This is the class of 2011. See, I felt like. I felt like this is why. This is why I knew this was gonna do well, that these were the guys. Okay, fantastic. [00:06:16] Speaker E: Yeah. And I owe it to pre communist Occupy Wall street. That was where I found out about. That's where I found out about bitcoin. If you don't. If you're annoyed about banks getting bailed out, use a money that can't be printed and given to banks. It was the most obvious thing ever. It was like, okay, I love it. [00:06:33] Speaker B: It made a lot of sense. [00:06:34] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:06:35] Speaker D: Cause if people like shit talking Peter Schiff and talking about talking about bitcoin. [00:06:39] Speaker E: I didn't know who that was yet. I only knew Max Kaiser. Cause I was at the London version of Occupy Wall Street street, and him and Stacey were in a building next door to where occupy London stock Exchange was, which was the. The London version of that movement. So they were there, like, shilling it. Assange was two streets over, locked in a freaking embassy. Well, actually, that happened, like, slightly after, but he came to occupy London a couple of times, and. Wow. So it was just, like, where everything was, like, in for, like, just people that were collectively pissed off. That was where we all culminated. We stayed at St. Paul's Cathedral in central London, and then the communists showed up ten minutes later, and it just turned into absolute bullshit. And I was done with it because I knew about bitcoin by then. [00:07:26] Speaker D: Drum circles. [00:07:27] Speaker E: Drum circles. People smoking weed and cops, like, just police, police, police. Just absolute waste of time. [00:07:35] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Well, thank God we have bitcoin now. [00:07:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Welcome to the roundtable, my man. And lastly, Steve. What is up, my man? [00:07:48] Speaker C: What's up, man? Yeah, I'm just here cause you told me to. Also, do you guys think if the. How did you get into bitcoin is the worst part of a podcast, no matter what podcast you're listening to? [00:07:59] Speaker E: Yeah, it's terrible. Cut that bit out, guy. [00:08:01] Speaker C: Like, skip ten minutes. I did like your story, though. [00:08:05] Speaker B: I did not ask the question. I did not ask the question. It was just. It was just news to me that we were all class of 2011. I thought that was. I thought that was a fun fact. [00:08:14] Speaker E: I think it does depend on the. It does depend on the answer, right? If it's like, yeah, I was a shitcoiner in 2017 and slowly realized bitcoin was better. That's not like, that's not the most compelling answer. [00:08:24] Speaker D: And that is awesome. [00:08:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, oh, great. I only heard that story a hundred times. [00:08:29] Speaker E: Yeah, right? [00:08:30] Speaker C: Yeah. I think there is a similarity amongst people that got into this basically because they thought it was, like, the real Occupy Wall street. Like, I got into it for that too. I was just like, fuck the banks. Like, fuck this, like, bailout shit. Fuck this. Occupy Wall street. That shit's never gonna work. Like, oh, shit, bitcoin. It's like Occupy Wall street with, like, guns. You know, it's like, well, with. [00:08:55] Speaker D: Without gunshot, but something like that. [00:08:58] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Instead of the Occupy Wall street movement, it's the just replace the bastards. [00:09:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:03] Speaker D: Cryptographic munitions. [00:09:05] Speaker E: It was the sly, roundabout way. [00:09:07] Speaker B: It is. [00:09:08] Speaker E: But, yeah, I mean, I think it is, like, nice to talk about it a fair amount because the price action as well was perfect because when occupy so started, it was like September 20, eleven. And that was after that big run up bitcoin did, where it went above a dollar and all the way up to $37 and then crashed back down. Like, I missed all that by a hair. And it was just kind of at $5 for like a year and a half until the end of 2012. So there was no, I wasn't in it for, like, bull runs or anything. I didn't know about them. It was just kind of this uncensorable medium of exchange that was, you know, unforgeable and peer to peer and all that cool stuff, that was it. And then at the end of 2012, I was like, wait, maybe those guys that are going on about it, like, going to millions of dollars one day, maybe they're right like that. And I hadn't really thought about that yet, so. But now, like, everyone that comes in knows there's been some headline about bitcoin hitting, you know, $19,000 or $71,000 or whatever. [00:10:06] Speaker D: So this guy and I got wrecked in the $30 bull run. [00:10:10] Speaker E: Did you? [00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, we got so wrecked and we had no money world, and we were living together at the time, and we opened our bitcoin world with fomoing every dollar, every pathetic poor person dollar that we had into bitcoin, basically at the tippity top, and then just watched it nuked. [00:10:36] Speaker D: $2. [00:10:37] Speaker E: That is. [00:10:40] Speaker D: From 30 to two. [00:10:42] Speaker E: Yeah, forever. [00:10:44] Speaker B: Like, it. [00:10:46] Speaker D: We just. We were just like, nope, we're sticking with it. We're sticking with it. [00:10:51] Speaker E: That was, that must have been like, to me, 2022 was the most miserable bear market in bitcoin's history. But that sounds worse, actually. [00:10:58] Speaker D: Yeah, no, it was. [00:10:59] Speaker B: It was pretty brutal, dude. Dude. Because we had just, we had, we had, like, a joint savings and, like, we were just, like, putting money together and we were like, oh, we're going to invest in something. We're going to come up with something. Then bitcoin was this crazy huge. [00:11:13] Speaker D: We had taken this options trading class, which was actually, like, a decent, like, he taught a lot of really decent principles about, you know, risk management and stuff like that. [00:11:25] Speaker B: I mean, that's really. The whole class was about risk management. So that you didn't. [00:11:29] Speaker E: And then you yellowed your life saving. [00:11:32] Speaker B: And then we were all of our paper trading. [00:11:35] Speaker D: So the thing is, is that all of our paper trading was garbage. Because, like, you, you find out that, well, the market, you know, after hours can go against you. Like, there's all these things. And so it was just like, man, this whole system is rigged, right? [00:11:48] Speaker E: You need a Bloomberg terminal and you're driving, steering the wheel 15 minutes after where the car actually is, right? [00:11:55] Speaker D: Like, it's a. And so we were just like, man, screw this. And then we found bitcoin. It was like, oh, this is it. We're just gonna put it all in this. Fuck everything else. [00:12:04] Speaker B: And then literally, like, three or four months later, I did the math on. [00:12:07] Speaker E: Like, what did you use? Were you on Mount Gox? [00:12:10] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And I just got. I figured out why. [00:12:14] Speaker B: That was the red phone purchase, right? [00:12:16] Speaker D: Yeah, we went to CV's and use a red phone and transferred to Duala and then to Mount Gox and got feed, got fees both times. And. And then I had, like, an anonymous trading account in Mount Gox and I. I realized why. So I got, like, I just got the paid back for a small, like, a small percentage of, like, we pulled everything out. And I didn't know at the time that you could transfer between accounts on Mount Gox. So I could have just transferred all of my money out to, like, his account or my other account or something and. And I could have, you know, not lost anything. But by the time I figured that out, they were already, like, stopping withdrawals. And so it got stuck in there. And then I had to verify my account and I didn't realize, like, some, I was like, they gave me five cent on the dollar for what was in there. And I was like, this is fucked up. And somebody was like, no, you should have gotten this amount for what you claim to have in there. And it turns out that because my account wasn't verified, I got screwed twice. Because my account wasn't verified until after the fact. They declared me some sort of zombie account. And so, like, I'm not a full creditor or something. I'm like, a zombie creditor, which gave me, like, less of a share. [00:13:34] Speaker B: Such bullshit. [00:13:35] Speaker E: Oh, fuck. [00:13:36] Speaker D: All of that noise. I hate it so much. It's so much. This source of so much stress and anger is just like, ugh. But now that we've talked about nothing but how we got into bitcoin, let's. Let's talk about it. [00:13:50] Speaker B: As soon as Steve was like, isn't how people got into bitcoin the worst part of the show? That's exactly what we went into. Yes. It was your fault. All right, bitcoin weather. Weather report here. So it's blocked. 858,135. The mempool is freaking huge right now, which is hilarious, because fees are nothing, so. Really? Yeah. On time chain calendar, it's 866 of the megabytes of 300. And fees are still, like, 27 cent. It's like, three cent. Three sat per v byte is clearing right now. [00:14:32] Speaker D: Somebody said this has to do with, like, some sort of staking scam that's starting on. [00:14:39] Speaker E: Let's. Let's. Let's definitely not start the show, like, talking about the latest scam. Like, I prefer to go back to the conversation around origins. [00:14:49] Speaker D: I mean, this is the news. [00:14:51] Speaker B: We might wrap it back. We might wrap back around there, but, yeah, fees for, like, fees for, like, an hour went up to, like, $90, but that's. That's unimportant because it's just another bullshit scam. Um, also, the price right now is. Wait, let's. [00:15:05] Speaker D: Steve, say something. [00:15:06] Speaker B: Oh, my bad. [00:15:07] Speaker C: Mempools. Can we stop talking about the size of memples? I don't care how many people want to pay one sat per byte. That's like asking, like, how many people want a cardinal that I can pay $1 for? That number is infinite. [00:15:23] Speaker E: It's a very good point. [00:15:24] Speaker C: About the size of the mempool. Like, there's the, you know, the order book of the people that want to pay the most. And, like, that's the only thing that's important. Like, size. [00:15:33] Speaker B: That's a good point. The fee is the only thing that really matters because I even. That even kind of popped into my head is that, like, the size of the mempool is like, you know, I could fill it up right now with zero fee. [00:15:41] Speaker E: Well, I mean, this is like, the annoying. I'm not being a pedant here. There is no mempool. There is no such thing as the mempool. It's the idea that there would be a cohesive vision about what is ending up in the next block is centralization and is complete invalidation of the blockchain as a concept. Like, really? [00:16:03] Speaker B: Since I have such opinionated sons of bitches here, I'll just remove this from. We don't need to. We don't need to have mempool anymore. We will take that out. I like that. All right. [00:16:12] Speaker E: Yeah, you can talk about your mempool, and if it's full of junk, that's on you, like. [00:16:19] Speaker B: If you're not using filters, that's your fault. [00:16:22] Speaker E: But you are using filters, unless you're running libre relay, which also has filters, which is. And you know what's really funny? Like, for weather report stuff, the new. I can't explain exactly how it works yet, but the cluster mempool thing that Gloria was championing and just pushed her into core is a new bespoke mempool filter that they're expecting everyone using core to use, which is super ironic to me, given the past year we've had of people, like, trying to equate mental filtration with censorship and act like they're naively the same thing. So there's just. [00:16:56] Speaker B: There's just official. Official. It's different. [00:16:59] Speaker D: As if you or guy somebody. Somebody somewhere was saying that, like, the whole bitcoin system is a fucking filter. Like. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Like, this literally was the whole thing. All it does is, fine. Define everything in bitcoin by being psychotic about what's allowed in. [00:17:18] Speaker E: Yeah, it's the most. [00:17:19] Speaker B: That's the whole. That's the whole. That is, if you want to describe what it is, that's what it is. It's just a giant set of rules about what is allowed and what isn't. [00:17:26] Speaker E: Yeah, and it's the hardest set of rules ever to circumnavigate, because you have to overcome Michael Saylor's wall of energy. Right. You have to literally outmine everyone to do it, or you have to literally overpower the nodes and become a dominant new version of what it is. So, like, trying to define any restriction that's placed on you by that network as censorship makes it the world's most efficient censorship engine that's ever existed. [00:17:55] Speaker D: So is dark skippy a problem? [00:17:59] Speaker B: We're not getting to dark skippy yet. We're not done on the list. [00:18:02] Speaker D: I know it's the first thing on the list. [00:18:04] Speaker B: I know it's the first thing, but you gotta wait. You gotta calm down. [00:18:09] Speaker D: Price, we haven't even gotten to the list. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Right on the way to 58k, where it will be forever and always, because 58k is destiny. And we got 605 exahash on the network. That's our, that's our energy wall. It went down 4% last difficulty adjustment. And it will difficult adjust expected 5% increase at the end of the month. So I will probably, it might be a good time to turn on some miners before the difficulty adjustment goes up. But I don't think I'll have mine hooked back up. I still haven't, I still haven't turned mine on since. [00:18:45] Speaker D: Still hot. [00:18:45] Speaker B: I said I was going to put it in, put it on ocean. No, it's been cool at night. It's been really nice. It's almost, we're getting close. We're getting close to minor weather. [00:18:55] Speaker E: Do you think bitcoin is still at 58k right now? It's just inflation adjusting itself, probably, yes. I think that's the new cope for 58K gang. [00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:09] Speaker E: Like, whatever the purchasing power of 58k was, bitcoin will stay at that forever. [00:19:14] Speaker B: Forever. [00:19:15] Speaker E: Just like how a chicken sandwich is still the same amount of grams of gold as it was 100 years ago. [00:19:19] Speaker B: Like, I'm not even, I wouldn't even be that upset about that. There would be something really poetic about it. [00:19:26] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Okay, so news items. So first we have got dark skippy, which Jeff has already ruined, but we're getting right into it. So dark skippy, first off, has any, did anybody else hear about dark skippy? [00:19:44] Speaker E: Yeah. [00:19:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Okay. Okay, so dark skippy is an exploit which is a malicious firmware. The video that I saw that executed this was with a seed signer. But as I understand it, this could be essentially any hardware wallet. I'm sure it just has to be modified, but it's a method of installing malicious firmware that makes it so that you can actually sign. When you sign transactions, it purposefully creates a watermark in the signature and exposes key information or information about your key, so that all you have to do is do two signatures, and that can just be a two input transaction. So if you just use two different inputs in order to make your transaction, they can just watch the blockchain for your signature, recognize it, and then pull your seed phrase. [00:20:43] Speaker D: Sounds unlikely. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Basically. It's also not easy to detect, and there was a lot of people talking about how this was terrible. I think somebody was kind of getting on him about, like, why you. Are you pointing out seed signer or something? You know, general drama around it. But what are your thoughts about the, the risk of this? You know, like, I've even heard people say that, like, you know, hardware wallets aren't that safe. And, you know, you know, it's not even necessary that you should use them sometimes, which just seems bonkers to me. But I don't know. What, what are your thoughts about it? Let's go to mechanic. Now that we've, we've switched the order here in the thing. Mechanic. [00:21:20] Speaker E: I've got strong opinions on this stuff. So this has been known about for a while. It's one of the reasons that you don't see core developers using hardware wallets while you see influencers talking about hardware wallets. And interestingly, the sort of Venn diagram merge point of that is what blockstream have with Jade, which is the one that didn't have this exploit. Right. It has prevention. It has some sort of protection against it, though I wouldn't claim to understand how it works, whereas things like cold card and Trezor and stuff don't. And it did. Like, I like cold card. I'm a fan of NVK. His attitude when arguing with blue Matt over it did seem a little flippant, in my opinion. I don't think it's like some crypto nerd imagination thing versus the $5 rent attack. It is a real thing, and it basically tricks you into yelling your private key at the entire network for everyone to just pick up on. It's pretty nasty, and it does seem like you can mitigate the attack. So I think that needs to be done. But it's a political division. Unfortunately, it's gone down the lines, and there's a political divide between these two factions and the side that is turning a blind, nonchalant eye to this attack that I usually side with are right. More generally when it comes to general purpose computing being used to store your private keys versus hardware wallets, because all of the core devs, you know, Greg, Luke, probably blue Matt, will all speak out against hardware wallets and say, just use a general purpose laptop. And one of their arguments for that, and just one of the rationales for that is supply chain attacks, right? Like, there's nothing more targetable by intelligence agencies or bad actors or whatever than, like, where they manufacture the Trezor or the cold card stuff. Like, the last thing you want is something that is only for storing bitcoin, right. That's the first place they go and attack it. Whereas like some old Dell laptop from you know, 2006 or something, it's not going to have anything related to bitcoin on it. Right. But I just think. I think this is like just core developers just being, I don't know what the word is. I think it's like stupid to make jokes about autism and stuff. I don't even think it's accurate. It's like some sort of just complete inability to understand how things are for normal people. And I just think telling people to like if you're going to go with like a. There's always bad in every situation right? There's problems with hardware wallets, there's problems with using general purpose computers that wouldn't be targeted in supply chain attacks but are way more prone to just other viruses and exploits. [00:24:04] Speaker D: Yeah the surface area is just amazing. It's not even comparable. [00:24:09] Speaker E: And also just backdoored intel cpu's that we know are backdoored. And then you have phones as well which are kind of one of the most secure ways to keep bitcoin. Funnily enough, I dare say if I had just a stock Android downloaded some bitcoin wallet off the play store and sent like 100 grand worth of bitcoin to it, im 99% sure no one would be able to get it off. Which is crazy right? Everything about it is bad on paper but im pretty sure no one would be able to get it off. But we know theres holes there as well. I think its all just. I find it quite unrealistic. When Greg said never use a hardware wallet. Luke refuses to use a hardware wallet. Blue mat in the thread about this exact topic said just use a computer or a laptop. It's better than using something that doesn't have a protection against this like the cold card and all that. Just use a laptop. I think that's ridiculous advice. Personally I don't think anyone should be storing bitcoins on laptops. We used to have to do it that way and it was terrifying. So no thanks. [00:25:15] Speaker B: I think one of the things that you point out the like the issue with using like yes you can. It does make more sense from a. Purely from the attack vector is that obviously a hardware wallet is something that if you attack you know you're going to get bitcoin at the other end of it because it's only got that one use. But you have to understand the security implications and the nuances of hardware wallets to be able to use a general purpose computer to keep your bitcoin safe, you have to already understand all of that. And like you say, the practicality of the normal person's situation, they're not going to use a general purpose computer intelligently. They're going to. If you tell them hardware wallets are not safe, because they're, because if you are, if you know all of the ins and outs and all of the intricacies and how keys work and how hardware wallets work and the firmware and all of that shit, that you could do a general purpose computer better, well, nobody that's, you're talking about 0.001% of the world. So you're, you're talking to nobody. [00:26:23] Speaker D: Installing a wallet. You're in, they're going to end up installing a wallet on a windows computer and, you know, just going to put. [00:26:29] Speaker B: Like Exodus wallet because they can trade shit coins on it and then they're going to put their life savings into it and they're going to, you know, do an email that says, it's like, oh, support says that, you know, your seed phrase is, is, is in danger. And if you just send it to us really quick, we'll keep it safe and we'll update your wallet for you and they'll just, and they'll just do that. [00:26:50] Speaker E: Yeah, it's, it's horrible, man. Like, if you've seen your average grandma's like, windows laptop, just the idea that they would, you have to give them a treasure. You have to give them something that's basically idiot proof. And I've seen these guys mess up with Trezors too. It sucks. [00:27:07] Speaker B: Steve, how do you keep your. [00:27:10] Speaker C: But I feel like when people talk about this tech, most of the people listening are like, what the fuck? Is my cold card broken now? Like people, they're like, tell me. So I think we should like, say to people, in order for this attack to happen to you, you would have to install some new firmware on your cold card or on your Trezor and like, you know, this isn't something that just happens to your hardware wallet without you doing anything. [00:27:39] Speaker E: Are you sure? Are you sure about that? Because I'm not sure that's accurate. I think what actually happens is it's the software side where you construct the transaction that's malicious and then the cold card signs it without knowing that it's a bad thing that it's signing. [00:27:54] Speaker B: It's no, as well. Everything that I have read about this was specifically about firmware on the device. You have to have a malicious hardware wallethead with malicious firmware. And that the act, actually, the firmware check. So if you get your, like, cold card has the two, like, verify words or something at the beginning, that's your firmware check. And then, like, a bunch of other ones will just have, like, a hash and say, like, make sure that this is the firmware. Right. The firmware check is right. If that is ever incorrect and it's not what you're supposed to see, then that means you're not, you're not looking at the right firmware. But it is specifically, at least for everything that I dug into, it was firmware specifically. [00:28:34] Speaker E: That's not the two words on the cold card. That's to make sure you're not typing in your. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Oh, is that your pin verified? [00:28:43] Speaker E: No, it's not a pin. It's to make it so that you, not someone, hasn't. It's the evil maid attack, where they put a different cold card in your safe and you pick it up and you turn it on and type in your pin, and it grabs it. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Okay, I thought that was a firmware check. My badlandhouse? [00:28:58] Speaker E: I don't believe so. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Okay. I could totally be wrong about that. Yeah. [00:29:02] Speaker C: Yeah. So I was listening to the Stefan Lavera when they had those guys on talk about it. And the attack is replacing the nonce that's part not like the mining knots, but there's a nonce that's a part of the ECDSA and the schnorr signature thing. So when the, when you sign your transaction, you're using your private key, but you're also using a very large random number that needs to be a different random number every time. If you use the same number for this extra nots that goes into each signature, people can actually, like, reverse engineer your private keys. And they've done that before when people have used the same nonce in their transaction signing. So this, this attack is just, it's not just using the same nonce every time, it's actually using like, a smart same nonce every time, which makes it even easier to extract it. So I'm pretty sure, I mean, I'm 99% sure that that nonce procedure is happening on the cold device. [00:30:03] Speaker E: I think you're right. Yeah. Sorry for jumping in there. [00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:06] Speaker C: So, yeah, so, yeah, don't freak out. Like, you'd have to install new firmware on your device, but I never install. [00:30:12] Speaker B: New firmware, and, or somebody has to have physical access to your device in order to force install on it. [00:30:18] Speaker E: Like, so how many people do you think that have cold cards out there, verified the firmware on it. [00:30:26] Speaker B: One person, a little. It's only construction thing. Like if it turns up, if it turns up wrong or whatnot. [00:30:33] Speaker E: No, no, no. I mean, I don't know. I don't mean that. That means that they're telling you that it didn't get messed with in transit, but that doesn't mean that what they put on it in the first place isn't malicious. So you go to the, you go to the GitHub, you download the whole thing, and you run all the checksums and you download, you know, nv key. I did that GPG key. You compare what the binary does if. Well, I'm glad you did it, but I only. I ran a cold card for years without doing that because I didn't know how. And then I've started doing all this stuff lately. No, right, well, do it. Like, you can't use a cold card that doesn't have firmware you didn't put on it. That's not kosher. You can't be doing that. You have to download the firmware and verify that it is what it's supposed to be. Otherwise that is literally how this attack would happen. Right. [00:31:21] Speaker B: It's actually not a bad idea. I actually really should. I'm a little reckless with my. And it's mostly just because I have so many damn cold cards. It would be a good thing to add to my ritual. [00:31:31] Speaker C: I mean, NBK could still have malicious hardware from like, day one, and they could just retire and disappear and just have everybody. [00:31:39] Speaker B: MVK is going to rug pull everybody. You know, that would be rough. [00:31:45] Speaker E: Yeah. Is it still vulnerable if multisig is. If is used? Like, if you have one bad. [00:31:51] Speaker C: I thought about that, too. [00:31:52] Speaker B: I'm not sure that's a good question. [00:31:55] Speaker C: I think not. [00:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you would have. You would specifically, even if that signature, because you're combining the signatures, which means it's a joint key, so you would still have. I wonder if you could even get the individual key if you didn't just have the individual signature, like, because the other two keys would basically mix in such a way. [00:32:15] Speaker D: So if you add a jade into your multisig for the win, multi sig makes. You're good. [00:32:22] Speaker B: Yeah, probably. Jade is based on no information. [00:32:26] Speaker E: I think Jade is like an unsung hero here. I never wanted to use it because I was given one. And when I'm given a hardware wallet, I just don't trust it. Yeah, but it's just awful looking as well. It just looks like such a piece of Lego that I just can't deal with it. [00:32:42] Speaker D: It's really smooth. The interaction with the phone is really nice. It's super easy. [00:32:48] Speaker E: I just don't want to use blockstream green software wallet because it's one of those ones that's like, oh, fine, we'll let you use your own electrum server if you want. And we won't give you any indication that that is actually what we're connecting to. So that means no privacy for me. I'm a Spectre wallet maxi, because it would only work if you had a node underneath it and just wouldn't work otherwise, which I'm like, that's how a wallet should be designed. It shouldn't be like electrum, which will just work. Even if you don't have a node that's completely wrong, default behavior needs to force you to do the absolute best practices. Otherwise, no one will ever. [00:33:26] Speaker C: I'm a Specter guy, too. [00:33:28] Speaker E: Spectre's great. [00:33:29] Speaker C: Like Sparrow better, but I kind of like Specter. [00:33:32] Speaker B: I love Spectre, but I go. I'd go all mobile. I end up doing all nunchuck. [00:33:38] Speaker E: That's. I need to check out nunchuck. [00:33:40] Speaker B: People love nunchuck. [00:33:42] Speaker C: Yeah, me too. [00:33:42] Speaker B: I love nunchuck. Um, let's go to the next item, since we're halfway through. And one item. [00:33:48] Speaker E: Jeff didn't do his take on it. [00:33:50] Speaker D: Nobody didn't. I don't. [00:33:53] Speaker B: He gave. [00:33:53] Speaker D: I don't know. [00:33:55] Speaker B: He. He brought it up. He brought it up. [00:33:59] Speaker D: I didn't have anything to contribute. So I asked you people, the most. [00:34:03] Speaker A: Important thing that you can do in order to secure your bitcoin and know that you own it is to take it off the exchange, to withdraw it, and use a reliable, secure hardware wallet. This is the cold card hardware wallet made by coinkite. This device can be entirely air gapped from start to finish. Quinkite has designed everything about this device to be as secure as possible, even in those edge case scenarios. And there's so many additional features, like the brickme pin, the dummy pin, and. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Even all the features you need for. [00:34:37] Speaker A: Complex multisig, and to use multiple wallets and devices together. But if you don't want any of that complication or any of those advanced features, you don't need to use any of it. And you can just. Just use the cold card to keep your key safe and know that your bitcoin is secure. And the thing I love most about this is that I can enable NFC, and I can just tap to pay. I set up my transaction and my wallet on this phone, and then whenever. [00:35:01] Speaker B: I want to send anything, all I. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Have to do is tap send the transaction to my cold card. I sign it, and then I tap send it back and broadcast. That's it. I'm able to get hardware wallet security for my phone. If you haven't gotten a cold card yet or checked out the cold card. Q their new device with a larger screen that can communicate by QR code and has an entire QWERTY keyboard on it, you definitely need to. The details will all be right in. [00:35:31] Speaker B: The show notes as well as my discount code. [00:35:33] Speaker A: Bitcoin, audible, protect your keys and get yourself a cold card. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Next item on the list, inflation milestone. I got this headline from CNN. Consumer price index slows below 3% for the first time since March 2021. Quote, this paves the way for the Federal Reserve to cut rates next month. After a year's long battle with inflation that sent rates spiking to a 23 year high, America's economy is showing signs of stress. And now that inflation appears under control, the Fed can reduce borrowing costs to try to get job growth booming again. [00:36:13] Speaker E: Man, this reminds me of when we went on a family holiday to Cuba when I was a kid, and there was a newspaper on one of the buses, and my dad was like, check this out. Here's what it's going to say. It's going to be like, Brazil is going to elect a communist next month. America is making moves towards communism next month. This is going to be a bunch of absolute made up shit that's just like government given to them. So now they're just, like, inventing CPI numbers. Like, oh, we've got inflation under control, and that's why we're cutting rates and all that. It's nothing to do with the election. We don't like. [00:36:46] Speaker D: They clearly invented the employment numbers, too. [00:36:48] Speaker E: So it's just total bullshit. Like, they're not even. It's just. Yeah, they're lying. They know they're lying. They know we know they're lying and etc. Etcetera. [00:36:57] Speaker B: And they're still lying. [00:36:58] Speaker E: Yeah, thanks. [00:37:00] Speaker C: I'm not sure I want to do this. We're gonna talk about Fiat news. [00:37:05] Speaker E: Yeah, fiat news. [00:37:07] Speaker B: Did I ruin this? Did I ruin it already? People are so. Okay, okay. [00:37:17] Speaker D: Proton wallet. [00:37:18] Speaker B: That's fine. That was. That was an easy. That was. I was. I was giving you a softie. I was just giving you a softie for some. For some good jabs. That's the whole point of this one. [00:37:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I like that. You know that the theory of like information from far away is only spread through money. You know, like the signal theory of monetary communications. Like if you're hearing information from far away, it's just super noisy. Like you can only get real information through prices, through the price signal. Nobody knows anything about anything happening far away. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's the whole point. That's the whole problem of economics, is there's an incalculable amount of information that the price signal is the only thing that can actually translate. [00:38:07] Speaker E: And that's what, and that's what sucks about clown world economics, because it distorts that and gets rid of that one reliable mechanism. [00:38:15] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:38:16] Speaker B: And thus we become shit coin is. [00:38:20] Speaker E: It turns everyone into a shitcoiner. [00:38:22] Speaker B: It turns the whole world into shit coin farm. [00:38:25] Speaker E: Well, it has to. Like everyone is buying crap, like, because they have no alternative. If you can't use the money to store value, everything else becomes a store of value and it becomes a gambling economy. And it's just retarded. Like it's, it's literally, it couldn't be more obvious to me. And it's crept into bitcoin in the most annoying way. Like mining is bitcoin mining is just a giant shitcoin casino, the same way shitcoins are. A lot of people that dont go the crypto route will go the mining route instead. And its just like when youre just a normal hodling bitcoiner, you look at bitcoin and youre like, oh, whatever, ill just buy bitcoin and thats fine. And one day you might be like, maybe I should get into mining and you run the numbers and youre like, nope, im just going to get more sats. If I just straight up buy more sats right now. Like itll cost me four grand for an s 21. That's x amount of sats. I will never mind that. Even if I have next to free electricity. No, I'm not going to do it. But there's a shitcoin mentality. People will come to it and a lot of investors will invest in companies that do this stuff. It's really annoying because it means they mine and it means the difficulty of the network shoots up and makes it more and more difficult for anyone that could mine in an economically rational fashion. So right now, this is where I've been at for the last eight months since ocean launched, is getting into the mining ecosystem and just being like, wow, this is. I've never thought of it that way. Like an ant miner is a shitcoin. It's just physical, but it's basically just a shitcoin. It's never going to get as many sats as it cost you, which is exactly the same as trying to go long on Dogecoin just to try and get more sats than you would. It's the same exact thing. [00:40:04] Speaker B: You're always just going to lose money. [00:40:05] Speaker E: Yeah, it's been really weird looking at it and I'm like, I tried to dip my toes in it just to sort of get some skin in the game and mining. And I'm like, yeah, this has been a complete fail. Like I should have just never bought a single miner because it's just so. [00:40:18] Speaker D: The difference would be like you could, you could bottom at the bottom of a market, at the bottom of the market, leverage a little bit of your bitcoin, get fiat, buy miners. [00:40:32] Speaker B: My bitcoin. If you just buy bitcoin. [00:40:34] Speaker D: Well that's true, you just buy bitcoin. But the thing is, if you have. Well yeah, you're right. [00:40:39] Speaker E: So here is the prisoners privacy. The minute it becomes economically rational to do anything like that, like you'd actually get more sats doing that than you would just buying sats. Everyone has to not overstep that boundary because the minute one person goes a bit degenerate, the network difficulty goes up and now you're making less sats. So everyone just dies together. Like that's. It's the prisoner's dilemma of it. It's not like gold mining where you just have to go and find gold somewhere. The difficulty adjustment is brutal. Like if one guy is being economically irrational mining and losing loads of money, and you've seen Mara and riot's numbers, right? They lost half a billion dollars last quarter between the two of them. And that's like that. And they just carry on getting investment from money printer that somehow is like two hops away from them somehow. And there's all these investors that are probably in Ethereum's ETF and all that garbage as well because they're, they have no idea what they're doing. So it's just, it creeps in. The difficulty is the highest it's ever been while the us dollar price is falling and falling. And it's like this is clown world economics and it doesn't make any kind of. It's not cognate at all with how like the game theory is supposed to make mining work. Like if people are mining and losing hundreds of millions of dollars a month doing it, then no, that's not censorship resistant, that's not anything like. That's completely farcical. That's just. That's a shitcoin casino, man. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Dude. The entire fiat financing apparatus literally seems to be some sort of a contraption, some system to literally just destroy real resources and continue to cover it up with next year's financing. It's this spinning wheel that just perpetually covers up real losses with nominal gains. What's the guy who does comma AI famous for your hots. Yes. Yes. Hots was talking about? It's like Zune or whatever, the one that's like, trying to make AI self driving cars or whatever. And they've got, like, all these sensors and, like, spinning shit on top of the cardinal and they're like, super. They're making their own, like, crazy custom vehicle and all of this stuff. They raised $990 million, a billion dollars. And he's like, they have nothing to show for it. They're almost out of money and they have nothing. They cannot put a single car on the road that is auto self driving. And he's like, I don't know how you live with yourself. I did it for like $50. I did it with a smartphone and I do it better than they can. And it's compatible with every car since 2018. You know, it's just absolutely wild. Like, the whole Fiat world makes no sense. And it has totally creeped into the financialization of mining. [00:43:40] Speaker E: Jimmy Song wrote an article called postmodern investing, and he goes into, like, how stuff doesn't need to have any sort of logical reason for you to invest in it. Like dogecoin. Great example. It's just like meme economy stuff. Just like. [00:43:56] Speaker D: That's a great description. [00:44:03] Speaker C: This might be too soon, but is there a joke about swan in here somewhere? [00:44:06] Speaker E: Well, let's do the swan topic next. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Yes. Where's, where's this one topic? On a second. So they did. [00:44:15] Speaker D: I didn't know they canceled Pacific bitcoin. I got. I knew they did. [00:44:20] Speaker B: They cut fat. They cut across the board. [00:44:24] Speaker E: So those guys had such a rough time that I heard you guys had to change your last name. Is that right? [00:44:32] Speaker B: Yes, we're still. The process is still going through, but, you know, that's not supposed to be. [00:44:40] Speaker E: Public thing where you're trying to claim that the extra n makes you exempt from having to do it. [00:44:46] Speaker B: Yes. I defer you to my lawyer. I am not allowed to make any public comments on this issue. So Swann announced the termination of its managed mining business. They're delaying the IPO plans, and they have had tons of cuts of staff and then canceled Pacific, bitcoin, all their sponsorships and stuff like that. And what's funny is a lot of people talked about like, oh, they're getting into mining. This is going to be, this is going to be bad. Like, a bunch of people predicted that that was going to be the case. And as I understand it, I don't know what information I'm allowed to make public, but I talked with, I mean, I love a ton of the guys over at Swan, like their friends. And as I heard, the details is that they basically made a division of Swan all about pulling together mining projects and getting people to set up mining in a bunch of different areas. And they were putting together a contract with another company. And as they have made all of this investment, when it came time to sign the contract, they said, no, we're not sure about this. Everything fell apart. And within like two days, they were like, so all of this revenue that we thought that we were now putting on, like, this is, this is how this is going to go. These are our costs. This is our. All of their calculations just went out the window when it was like, suddenly this contract doesn't exist anymore. Or at least we can't rely on this contract. Maybe it still happens. And they were like, they went into emergency mode and then just cut everything. [00:46:29] Speaker D: Well, they. So they cut the company back to like, what it was nine months ago or whatever before the. [00:46:33] Speaker B: Yeah, they just, they literally just shopping block to everything before the whole. Before it even started. Yeah. Thoughts? [00:46:42] Speaker D: I mean, hopefully they're. Hopefully they're just going back. They were making money before, right? I think it seems like they'd probably be fine. [00:46:49] Speaker E: So, yeah, I guess I'll just say that I don't like, we've had some dealings with them as ocean. It never really got to any sort of big point. And I think that's probably. People can probably connect the dots between what you're saying and what happened there. Right. So there was a lot of potential that I think just didn't pan out. And the details of that are kind of all just boring stuff to do with probably a lot of paperwork going back and forth and things that might happen. And, like, when you're in these environments, there's just a lot in limbo constantly. Right. And you have to make decisions at some point. Like, okay, are we going to hire this guy? Are we not going to hire that guy? Like, this is probably to happen, so we can probably base stuff on that. And I think it's just one of those things where it was like, all right, it didn't go the way we'd hoped, and now we have to make some difficult decisions. But they made them. And like, this is like a. This was like something. There's some chess playing wisdom here. I don't know what grandmaster it was, but he's like, the best sign of, like, a terrible chess player is that when there's an awful move that has to be made, they keep not making it because they don't want to accept that they're in a bad position and they just need to lose a piece. Whereas a great player will just say, this piece is dead. I accept that it's dead. I need to just try and move on. I need to make the bad move. I think that really speaks to their maturity as a company just to go, we're in a shitty situation here. Rip the band aid off. And they just did it. I'm impressed with that. I think there are other players in the industry, you know, the mount Gox kinds of attitudes where they'll just pretend things are okay for ages and try and limp along and try and sort of solve things, and then, you know, they end up mega, mega wrecked. So. Yeah, and I don't understand a lot of the hateful one. I think there's like, a lot of. A lot of people were like, yeah, they've gone. They're doing badly. And I never understood the hateful one. [00:48:47] Speaker B: I gotta say, it's easy drama. But, like, this shit, somehow. Somehow it just became fun. I think it's this binance Corey's. So, like. [00:48:59] Speaker E: There'S. There's like Kraken like this somebody. [00:49:04] Speaker D: Somebody attacked Coinbase because that is like, like, I mean, not. [00:49:07] Speaker B: The fact that swan gets more shit than Coinbase is ridiculous. Quite. Is quite entertaining for you. Like, just wild. [00:49:16] Speaker E: And there's also. There's also river that are kind of similar to swan. Right. And they actually get no drama at all. They're just another river. [00:49:23] Speaker B: Is just like totally drama free. Is great. They. They are. [00:49:26] Speaker D: And tell this story about your contractor and Coinbase. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Oh, God. Oh, God. Well, first. At first, I want to say is like, that's actually this. I love that you brought up the whole chess move thing because that's like a great analogy. And, you know, my concern would be if they tried to pretend that there wasn't a problem. Right. And, you know, a number of people came to me. Is there something I have to worry about? You know, I signed up with Swan or whatever and. And, you know, during the dip or whatever, I bought a bunch of crap on Swan. Like, I still just use Swan. Um, and I was like, no, let me tell you, this is, this is kind of my thinking on this is that, you know, apparently within days of them realizing that this contract wasn't going to go through, they cut everything that they couldn't afford. You know, it's like, FTX didn't do that. They couldn't afford 70% of their company. And they started, they proceeded to not cut anything until appear as if they were still exploding in growth. And everything was fine for like a year and a half. And it may be at the very beginning of it, if they had just cut everything, they would survive. They would have been fine. Like, you have to make the crappy decision in order to keep the thing alive. So honestly, the huge firing of everybody that they couldn't afford seems to me like, okay, well, yeah, Swan will make it through this. [00:50:50] Speaker E: It's low time preference, man. It's embarrassing in the short term, but it's what you got to do to actually survive and not run a complete scam of an entity like FTX. [00:50:59] Speaker D: Did normies need stepping stones? Like, I didn't become an anarchist overnight. Like, you know, I needed Milton Friedman to get me, you know, like part of the way there, right? And so it's the same way. Like, you need an easy, trustworthy place to send normies to get bitcoin, where this not going to put shit coins in their face. It's not going to like this. There's a good education, you know, like, they've got a bunch. The Swan cannon is great. Like, it tells them that they need to get their shit off of the exchange, you know, off of Swan. So I can't think of a much better place than that, you know, for directing new people. [00:51:41] Speaker B: There are a handful of, like, good bitcoin only companies and. Yeah, like, I just only send people to those. Like, I just, I. I can't. Like my contractor, we talked about it. There you go. Bisque. [00:51:52] Speaker E: I'm still shilling bisque. [00:51:54] Speaker B: This is great. But my contractor short version of the story is we talk about bitcoin a lot. And then he was finally like, all right, I should get some. And I told him to go to Swan. I told him Swan river, both great options, really easy to use. And he went to Coinbase because Coinbase is well known to. And he heard about it on the news. And they proceeded to, within moments of signing up, they told him to buy rally coin, I think. And so he bought $2,000 worth of rally coin. And then a month later, they delisted it and rally coin was plummeting in price and it was stuck on there. And he didn't know what to do with it. He had no idea how to. He didn't have a wallet. He had to do anything, and he lost all. [00:52:44] Speaker D: They delisted it. So he can't sell it. [00:52:46] Speaker B: He can't. [00:52:46] Speaker D: They promoted something that he can't get rid of. That's just like, just criminal. Like, I don't. [00:52:54] Speaker B: Jackass. [00:52:54] Speaker D: I don't even know. I don't know what else to call it. [00:52:56] Speaker B: I don't know how you call anything but a scam. [00:52:58] Speaker C: But anyway, I'll take kind of the devil's advocate position. [00:53:02] Speaker B: I would love the devil's advocate. Give me the devil's advocate, Steve. [00:53:06] Speaker C: I think you're right. Like swans, great. And like Coinbase, I mean, that. That Swann gets more shit than Coinbase is retarded. I agree with that. But when I compare Swann to kind of other places to buy bitcoin, like cash app or river or strike, I see Swann having a million times more employees, but I don't see any aspect of their product that's better than River, Orlando, cash app or strike. I mean, I'm not like a mega millionaire. I don't. I don't do the white glove service. And that's where I think maybe Swan could do. Could out compete these other places. Like, but, you know, unchained has a really good white glove service and I imagine river does, too. So what exactly is Swann doing better than these five other places? And, like, is that where's their income going to come from? [00:54:02] Speaker D: Hard time. [00:54:03] Speaker B: I don't know how to. I don't know how to compare the companies because I don't really know about employee size. Yeah, yeah. [00:54:09] Speaker D: I have a hard time believing they have more employees than cash app, but I don't, you know. [00:54:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. [00:54:15] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:54:16] Speaker B: Well, maybe. Maybe if you compare just their bitcoin divisions, like, cash app does a lot more than just baby, obviously. Granted, their bitcoin side is like a gargantuan amount of their revenue. So, yeah, to be honest, I don't. [00:54:29] Speaker C: Hate them, but I just don't know what they're doing very well. [00:54:33] Speaker E: I actually appreciate one thing Corey did a lot. Like he was trashing Mashinsky and a lot of other scammers before their respective scams blew up. I know there are, like he was telling people, you'll get free premium swan service, whatever it is. I'm not in the US. Right. So I don't actually know what any of these products are. I. But like, he was. A lot of people closed their celsius, you know, accounts, right. And they did that because he was just constantly, constantly trashing them. And then they did collapse, so. And I think he was going off to. Was he going off to. What was that Doe Kwan Staple coin that blew up? What was that? [00:55:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:55:11] Speaker E: Terra Luna. Right? [00:55:12] Speaker B: Terra Luna. Yeah. [00:55:13] Speaker D: Right. [00:55:14] Speaker E: I think he was going after. [00:55:15] Speaker B: He went after them really hard. Yeah, I think that. Really think that's what it is is that he involves himself in the drama so much and that people hate people who are right about something and, and, and obviously it sounds super arrogant for him to just like trash people. So you just invite people to trash you back and then everybody enjoys it. [00:55:38] Speaker E: I think that's what it is. Like, river aren't out there taking moral positions on things. Like, they're not public like that. [00:55:44] Speaker B: So business, you know, but like, if. [00:55:47] Speaker E: You attract the hatred, like this is a thing with tether that I always found. [00:55:51] Speaker D: But Corey was right. We should reiterate he was right. [00:55:54] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, round of applause. Not about the mining manage managing part of things, but. But about all the shit coins he was trashing. I mean, that's also. That's not that hard. Coins are shit. [00:56:10] Speaker E: Yeah. True. I mean, I just think, yeah, you can get yourself in trouble by being public and taking positions on things. And I agree with the positions he took on stuff, so. And I think he actually made a lot of people not lose a lot of money on scam coins. So, yeah, I appreciate you reiterating that, Jeff. It was a good thing for him to do and it makes me appreciate the guy. And also, like, there's been like a lot of drama between Ocean and Bitcoin magazine people. Right. Because of, you know, they're like the complete champions of scams coming into the bitcoin space and operating on bitcoin natively rather than on Ethereum or something. And they're presenting that as some kind of good thing a La Brian Armstrong 2017. I maybe have a strong opinion on it, but I mean, also swan and Corey and those guys were also taking the position that we had as well on that, which again, makes me appreciate them and just go, yeah, these guys aren't, they're not trying to rebuild every single f scam on top of bitcoin and then pretend it's somehow not a scam anymore because it's on bitcoin. Like, it's not just a scam to do that. It's actually worse. Like, I really, really wanted those scams to stay over on ethereum and just leave us alone. And when they come over here, they start advocating for opcodes and stuff inside bitcoin. Like, I don't want these guys around. Giacomo has been killing it lately with the. Defending the political aspect of what happens with forks. Pointing out that Segwit two X was mostly a political objection. Like, we wanted big, we wanted Segwit. And we also did double the block size in Segwit when we did it as a softwalk. It was nothing that egregious about Segwit two X. It was just the people proposing it were a bunch of corporate assholes that decided what bitcoin should be in a private room in New York. And we're never going to allow to the round. Yeah, we should. The idea that you could just have a precedent be set, that you can upgrade bitcoin because a few people that run a bitcoin exchange decided it's going to change. So it doesn't matter what the idea is. No. People are like, well, why don't you discuss the technical merits? Because it's not actually relevant. Of course they're going to come up with a good idea because that's how you get your foot in the door. If you want to attack bitcoin and you want to take over its governance, the first thing you propose is a good idea that everyone can accept. And then they do that. And then you set the precedent. So the next bad idea, everyone goes, well, we've already done it. You know, we trust these guys now. So that's politics, right? Like, yeah, that's. And it's really naive not to talk about that stuff and to pretend it's all just technical. [00:58:55] Speaker D: I've had some conversations with some ETH people lately, and accidentally, mostly, and they. Yeah, they. [00:59:03] Speaker B: They don't hold it against us. [00:59:06] Speaker D: It's crazy how, like, they don't even understand. Like, they don't understand. They have the completely different framing. Like, they're like, well, this is, you know, like blockchain governance or whatever. I'm like, no, you don't like what you're. You're like, they're. They're giving up the whole game. You know, they don't. They don't understand that triple entry accounting doesn't work if you don't have the entire, you know, like the entire history. That byzantine general's problem isn't even probabilistically solved. If you don't have something to tie it to, you know, reality, like, you know, like, it's not. [00:59:39] Speaker B: They think blockchain democracy sounds like a good idea. [00:59:43] Speaker D: They literally. That is. Yeah. [00:59:46] Speaker E: These people have no idea what they're doing. They're like, they're just starting us backwards with every single thing they're trying to do. Like, if you start with a blockchain to do these complicated features and running dows and things like that, you're doing the exact opposite approach than what you need to do. Like, it's centralized by design. It's only going to get worse if it gets adopted. So stop trying to be decentralized. That's like. That's the exact opposite of what you're. What you're aiming for. [01:00:15] Speaker B: What was it, Hl Mencken that said, you know, democracy truly is the spirit of the people, and if you have it instituted for long enough, eventually the true and honest representative of the people will be in power and you'll finally have a president who is an absolute, total dumbass. [01:00:39] Speaker E: Yeah, well, it's idiocracy, man. Yeah. [01:00:44] Speaker B: So. [01:00:44] Speaker E: Proton wallet, Kamala. And you know what we're aiming for with us? Politics is just that, right? [01:00:52] Speaker D: So bad. [01:00:52] Speaker E: Trudeau is, like, a lot of Canadians like Trudeau, right? And he's just an idiot. [01:00:58] Speaker D: Like, he's actually on stage talking about how he was, like, dyslexic and, like, he's, like, literally retarded and, like, couldn't do math. And, like. And, like, it's just. It's crazy to watch this speech where he's, like, admitting that he's an idiot and. And, like, I'm, like, there. He's not even lying. Like, you know, this is getting. [01:01:19] Speaker B: This is getting banned off YouTube because you insulted dyslexic people. [01:01:23] Speaker D: Yeah, well, dyslexia is there. There are smart people that, you know, start off as dyslexic and get over their issues, but, like, really? Well, it is an issue. You're reversing things. [01:01:40] Speaker E: You look at Bukele, man. Look at Bukele. And he actually is a genuinely clever guy that has, like, an ability to make a plan and, like, think through how it will turn out. [01:01:49] Speaker D: Tyrant. [01:01:50] Speaker B: No, there's something to listen to when he speaks. He's substance behind his. [01:01:55] Speaker E: Yeah, I'm not even saying, like, you. You could hate him and, like, buy the whole line that he's an authoritarian dictator if you want, but he's still not an idiot, is my point. He actually can think through a thing. Like, he could solve a sudoku. George Bush couldn't do that. George Bush could not solve a sudoku. [01:02:12] Speaker B: Nobody we've had in quite some time could solve a sudoku. Possibly. [01:02:17] Speaker E: I have trouble with Sudoku. [01:02:19] Speaker D: The difference between RFK and Trump, the speeches at the bitcoin conference or whatever, it's like night and day. RFK clearly understands what bitcoin is and is like, Trump had no idea. He's like. He's like, you know, and all the other things you're playing with. [01:02:39] Speaker B: Did you hear about great, my Michigan. My Michigan rally was super big. Y'all hear about that? [01:02:45] Speaker E: What about the staple coins? [01:02:47] Speaker B: It was the biggest. It was the biggest rally we've ever had in Michigan. [01:02:51] Speaker C: There you go. [01:02:52] Speaker E: What's the next? I'm sorry, I have to go in, like, ten minutes, so we should probably. [01:02:58] Speaker D: Try and stop proton wallet. [01:03:01] Speaker B: Okay, I'm skipping. Proton wallet. [01:03:03] Speaker E: Wow. [01:03:04] Speaker B: We're skipping. Because I did a whole show on proton wallet. We don't need to talk about proton. It's cool that they're doing a non custodial thing. You should just listen to that episode. So Russia, they still have domestic cryptocurrency bans, so you can't use bitcoin or cryptocurrency domestically. However, they have recently legalized it. Legalized bitcoin for international trade explicitly to bypass western sanctions. That's interesting. That is interesting. I mean, it doesn't mean that it's happening any day soon, but I was. [01:03:39] Speaker E: I was like it when they're openly hypocrites like that, like, we will use, like, we will not allow you to engage in freedom of economic activity at all, but we're going to allow ourselves to do it. Like, wonderful. Congratulations on this. But this is great. This is absolutely fantastic. I like illegal bitcoin. It is my favorite kind of bitcoin. It is a kind of bitcoin where you no longer have strong bitcoin. It's my contention lately that money must be fungible. It's the most fundamental characteristic of money. You can have stuff that becomes more valuable because it isn't fungible, but then becomes useless as money, like, great example, is out of circulation. Ancient currencies like the Sestertii and things like that, every single one will be worth a different amount because they're from a different year, and some is rarer than others. They still actually have value. But if you want to try and use them, you're going to be bartering because you have to give each one its own individual value, which is why when it comes to spam on bitcoin, all the different flavors of it. Ordinals were the worst because it was trying to directly attack fungibility by saying, some you can actually identify individual Sats or bitcoins, and some can be more valuable than others. And the minute you put a heuristic on top of a money that says it's not all equal, one bitcoin does not equal one bitcoin. You ruin a fundamental aspect of its money ness. And you can always do that. There's nothing to stop people putting tertiary systems on top of bitcoin. And that's what Kyc is, which is why every bitcoiner has a Kyc stash and a non Kyc stash, which is horrible. And the only way you actually stop people doing that is you elect Ron Paul or you elect a complete tyrant. Those are the only two extremes where you can have one or the other. You need freedom, or you need complete tyranny. The minute you have, like, this regulated, cucked bitcoin, where you're sort of allowed to do certain things with it, that's when everything falls apart and centralizes, in my opinion. So I really like it when countries like Russia do stupid stuff like that, just make it illegal. Because any smart Russian can run a node anyway, and they can carry on conducting activities in bitcoin, but there's no longer any reporting requirements, there's no longer a separate KyC stash. None of that crap happens. And they have to run a node, and they have to do it all with best practices. So I just celebrate it. And if the government as well, is also going to use it to get around red tape that's been put like a weaponized us dollar system, that, to me, is just elegant. And when people talk about bitcoin game theory playing out, that's what I mean. And that's what I like. [01:06:15] Speaker B: Bitcoin game theory. Yeah, that's exactly. [01:06:17] Speaker D: So you oppose the bitcoin reserve legislation? [01:06:21] Speaker E: I do, man. I oppose every single. Every single element of what Donald Trump. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Would bring to the note. For anybody who doesn't know, Senator Lummis implemented or proposed a strategic bitcoin reserve, and they actually have a bitcoin bill, and they've introduced this. The legislation would mandate the us treasury to create secure bitcoin vaults and purchase 1 million bitcoin units. Bitcoin units equivalent to 5% of the total supply. So, mechanic, you're totally against this, right? [01:06:53] Speaker E: Yeah. I think Francis nailed it when he said, I'm interested in bitcoin's ability to bankrupt governments, not to bail them out. So I think I agree with that. Lummis isn't bad. I think she seems like kind of all got a heart in a decent place. It's Trump, the one I really disagree with, the idea of bringing mining. He says, I want to bring all mining to America, which to me is that's the exact opposite of what you want regulated North America. We're already a blight on the whole ecosystem. The most centralized aspect of mining at the moment is the hardware, because it's all manufactured in China. And then the second most centralized aspect of it is that so much mining is happening in North America and it's all completely regulated. So, like, Trump coming in and wanting to do more of that, to me is just a disaster. And then, like, RFK a year ago said the same thing. Like, I want. I want, you know, I want to make sure all Americans can run a bitcoin node. And I wanted to enshrine it into law. And I'm like, do you psychos want the american government defining what a bitcoin node is? Because, like, I can't think of anything worse. And the same with mining. I don't want the. Like, I already don't think miners are miners. They're just hashes. They're not making templates, and they're not taking custody of what comes out the chain of that's a fail. That's not mining, that's just hashing. And I don't want the us government getting involved in the definition of that. The canadian government already did, and they've said you have to pay double the tax if you do those other two things. You only get half the tax rate if you agree to let someone else take custody of everything coming out of the chain. And you don't make templates. So the canadian government is literally giving you a 50% tax break if you refuse to be a sovereign minority. And all the other ones that are addicted to the money printing version of bitcoin mining, it's horrible, man. You have to pay sales tax on all mined bitcoin in Canada, unless you use the product that foundry offers, where they will just rent your hashrate, and then you're not a bitcoin miner anymore. But you don't have any sovereignty. You can't interact directly with the blockchain anymore. That's the most evil kind of regulation governments can do, because it means you end up with one pool. That's it. And that pool is the one that. [01:09:09] Speaker B: Talk about regulatory capture. [01:09:11] Speaker E: So in the last six months, 131 unique addresses have received all newly created bitcoins, and 71 of those were people getting paid out by ocean, by the way. So we're responsible for more than half of it with our tiny size. And this is because miners literally can't take custody from what comes out of the chain. They don't want it because then they have to pay more tax. When Donald Trump is up there saying, I want to bring bitcoin activities and celebrate this crypto industry, I'm like, yeah, anyone? Cheering this is just completely missing the point. I'd rather have Vladimir Putin up here torpedo the whole thing, make the difficulty plummet down, like, 70%, and then all the pleb miners running s nine s in their garage are profitable again. And bitcoin is more resilient. Like, everything about that is good and no one would ever voluntarily ask for it. But it's just, you know, that is my take on the entire state. Hostility versus friends in fake friends, wolves in sheep's clothing versus proper libertarians, that would leave us alone. I'd vote for Ron Paul saying I'd get rid of capital gains tax on bitcoin. Fine, I'll vote for that. But I'm not voting for, like, let's bring bitcoin mining to America. No way. [01:10:31] Speaker B: So is this all just your way to say you're voting for Kamala? [01:10:36] Speaker E: Well, I'm not an american, so I think. But they do have my name, so I imagine I'll be voting for Kamala seven or eight times in various states regardless. Right. I'm probably registered Republican in about four states at this point. Sorry, Democrat. Yeah, I think that's pretty likely. [01:10:56] Speaker B: Steve, I feel like you have something to say. I feel like you have something to say on that one. [01:11:00] Speaker C: I had a lot of things to say, but I know mechanics. Got to go. I thought of something that might help. If you haven't thought of this analogy. I know explaining the difference between FPps and the full payouts that you do is difficult, but when I was thinking about it, it occurred to me it's kind of like the bitcoin price versus fiat dollars. Like, fiat dollars are pretty stable, but you're guaranteed to lose money, whereas bitcoin is more volatile. But, like, in the long term, you end up getting more money. Have you. Have you used that analogy before? I think it kind of works for the FPPs thing, right? [01:11:37] Speaker E: Oh, it does. There's a lot of beautiful analogies for the comparison. But have you ever had someone just be like, hey, I know market dynamics really well, I'll trade on your behalf and I'll give you 10% of all the profit I make. [01:11:50] Speaker C: Right. [01:11:51] Speaker E: That, to me, it's basically that someone's saying, I'm going to go to the blockchain and get a bunch of bitcoin out of it. I'll probably get this much from it because unpredictable, right? Blocks are unpredictable, transaction fees are unpredictable. But some company is saying, don't worry, I'll pay you no matter what. So you, as a miner, you don't even have to worry about it, right? You're going to make 8 million sats a day or whatever. Like, you'll just get that no matter what anyone that would offer you that product is either going to go out of business or charge you an unbelievably big hidden commission to the point where you don't realize they're charging it. So it's like the airport currency exchanges that tell you 0% commission, even though it's like one pound gives you $0.80, or you sell a pound and you sell a pound for $0.80, or you buy dollars and get like $1.20. Sorry, the opposite way around. But the spread is huge. But they tell you it's 0%. So FPPS is just like its free lunch fallacy. Ridiculous notion that you could ever do that. So our payout scheme doesnt do that. It says to miners, look, man, the bitcoin blockchain is random. We have no idea whats coming out of it. Of course, were not going to make any promises to you about what youll get if we find no blocks. You wont just get a little bit. Youll get literally nothing. But if we do find a block and youre 50% of the pool, you get 50% of the entire block. And we thought, yeah, this will probably outperform the other pools. And then it did more than 10% despite us being really unlucky. And we were like, okay, this is crazy. Like, we are overpaying. Extremely. [01:13:21] Speaker B: This episode is brought to you by ocean mining. You should mine with ocean. [01:13:26] Speaker E: Yes, you should. Unless you can't wait 24 hours. [01:13:31] Speaker D: They're basically capitalizing on the fact that everybody is leveraged and nobody's fiscally responsible. And that cash flow is a huge part of, like you were saying before, there's a bunch of fiat degens jumping into mining. And so if you don't have the cash flow to make it through a month of no revenue, then you don't have the cushion to make it through a month of no revenue. [01:13:58] Speaker E: Yeah, right. [01:13:59] Speaker B: I think it's just a financialized bitcoin for people who can only survive in a financialized world that they think that the whole idea is to get rid of risk, to hide it, to get rid of volatility. You grow little bitches in a market where if there's a 3% downturn, everything goes into chaos and everybody's freaking out and nobody knows what to do when we bail out hundreds of billions of dollars in a matter of hours versus people who grow up in bitcoin as like, market chads who scoff at 60%, 60% crashes and they're like, yeah, okay, I'll buy a little bit more, but yeah, be a bitcoiner blocks. Be a bitcoiner blocks are a probability bitch. [01:14:45] Speaker E: You're right about the cash flow point, Jeff, because that's it. I'm fine presenting it with as a trade off. Right. Ocean has way worse cash flow because, like I said, no blocks equals no money. But that's traded off with you get more revenue overall. The alternative thing that was never understood to be a trade off, it was just presented as well solve your cash flow and well still maximize your revenue. Dont worry. Well pay you everything -2% and that will be like the pretend fee. And everyones like, whats oceans fee versus foundrys fee. And im like, dude, we could charge you a 10% fee and still pay more than what foundry are giving you because the fee isnt the fee. Thats the 0% commission sign. Again, that isnt a going to give you any indication, like, if you look at like the international currency conversion rates of pounds to dollars, like, you're not going to get that. If you go to a 0% commission place in an airport, you're not like, it's going to be like 12% worse than that. But they just don't call that a commission, that's all. So, like, this is really annoying because now I have to undercut when I'm selling this product to you, I have to charge you less of a fee, even though I could charge you triple the fee and still come out better. Anyway, I'm going to transition to my phone while I drive because I don't. [01:16:01] Speaker B: Know, are you stick. You're going to stick with us? Yeah, because I was going to. I was going to. I'm happy to close it out. If people need to go, we need to shut down the roundtable session. We've had a fantastic session so far, and I was just going to kind of go through the rest of the list just for the sake of news items, and they would just. They would miss our wonderful, in depth and super knowledgeable opinions about these things. But they could at least still get the news. But if you guys want to stick with it for a little bit, I'm. I'm up for that, too. What do we got? We got a vote. This is democracy. Because democracy works. [01:16:37] Speaker D: I'm not going anywhere. [01:16:38] Speaker C: I'm not going anywhere. But I. You might have some trouble switching to your phone. They wouldn't even let me switch back to the microphone. I realized my audio issues was because, like, I, like, my actual mic wasn't working, and I'm talking into the laptop mic. And then when I tried to switch it back to my good mic, it said, switching mics not allowed during recording. [01:16:58] Speaker E: Well, let's see. I'm on the world's least reliable thing ever, which is Firefox on grapheneos. If this works, I'll be amazed. Oh, it wants me to download an app. All right, that's it. I'm leaving. I'm never coming back. [01:17:10] Speaker B: As a. [01:17:10] Speaker E: Relax. [01:17:11] Speaker B: We're done. First and last episode of the roundtable, guys, I really appreciate it. Fucking download an app. [01:17:22] Speaker E: I do genuinely have to go, so thanks for having us. I would like to do it again. It was a lot of fun. See you soon, guys. [01:17:29] Speaker D: Appreciate it. [01:17:30] Speaker B: Dude. [01:17:30] Speaker A: This is the swan bitcoin app, and this is how easy it is to. [01:17:34] Speaker B: Just buy bitcoin whenever you're feeling like it. [01:17:36] Speaker A: And I feel like it right now. And as it shows me right here, I still have $9,388 worth of my $10,000 bitcoin. Buying that has no fees whatsoever. And now I have $10 more worth of bitcoin. I do this quite often. One of the really great things about Swan is the incredible number of resources they have for learning and understanding anything that you want to know about bitcoin. And importantly, they're going to teach you why you should not trade. They're not going to encourage you to trade. They are bitcoin only if you're looking for an easy and reliable way to get into bitcoin. If you're looking to put bitcoin in your ira, if you're looking to put bitcoin in your business, if you're looking to do anything around getting on a bitcoin standard or getting exposed to bitcoin in your portfolio, check out swan. Bitcoin.com guy is my special link, and you will find it very conveniently right in the show notes. [01:18:33] Speaker D: All right, so we're going to finish the list. [01:18:37] Speaker B: Let's. [01:18:38] Speaker D: What are we doing? [01:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah, let me. Let's do rapid fire. Let's do rapid fire. Everybody gets 10 seconds on these things so we can close this out. All right, so federal reserve is going to cut rates by 0.75% with three reductions this year. What do you think? What do you think about that? [01:18:56] Speaker D: Fiat printers go, Burr, you know? [01:18:59] Speaker B: There you go. There you go. [01:19:00] Speaker C: Steve, I was glad to hear say that people make such a big deal out of these tiny rate cuts. I'm glad you said that because I just think it's so stupid. It's like watching grass grow with a microscope. It's like, who cares? [01:19:14] Speaker B: It's like a placebo effect. It's like a placebo effect is that the rate itself doesn't matter. It's whether or not people think because bitcoin jumped on this news, the market jumped. Everything's just reacted to it. It's like, oh, well, if they just think we're going to be loose, everything will act as if we are super loose on the monetary policy and we can just kind of like, fluff this along for, you know, another six months to a year. It's all. It's the fiat game, man. It's all just fake on top of fake. All right, let's see. IMF. In its quest to save the planet, IMF has suggested an 85% increase in electricity and electricity tax for bitcoin miners. [01:20:04] Speaker D: I did not. [01:20:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I didn't hear that either. [01:20:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I was. I was really hoping. I was really hoping we could get a mechanics view on that. Being the minor who doesn't mine and thinks mining is a terrible thing. [01:20:18] Speaker D: If they did an 80 and 80. Wait, say it again. 85% tax. [01:20:23] Speaker B: 85 to use energy tax. Yeah. So their costs for energy are 85% higher. If you're bitcoin mining, I mean, go. [01:20:32] Speaker D: For it, then all mining would be covert. And then, you know, whatever. I don't know. [01:20:37] Speaker B: My immediate thought is, when does the IMF taxes somebody? Like, who does the IMF text? [01:20:44] Speaker D: They're recommending it. They're just, they're just, you know, saying, please do this. I don't know. [01:20:52] Speaker C: I'm surprised that, like, that point about how when you're saying something like this, you're just saying that the thing that's consuming energy is bad. Like, why aren't they taxing curling irons and hair dryers and washing machines and. [01:21:04] Speaker B: Like all the other stuff and porn websites and. [01:21:09] Speaker D: And, you know, porn servers for sure. [01:21:11] Speaker B: The dark corners of Craigslist and four chan yeah, I know a lot of. [01:21:16] Speaker C: These topics are hard, but this one seems like I thought would have caught on that people, it would have sank in that it's like, in order to say don't use energy, you have to make a convincing case that that thing is bad. [01:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:28] Speaker C: You know, so, like, where's your case that bitcoin is bad? And before you even try to, like, tax the energy or something, I think. [01:21:36] Speaker B: They just have the default assumption that, like, because people don't understand it, if they can just say that it uses a lot of energy, then, like, that means it's bad because they don't have any other reference for. It's like, well, bitcoin is just a thing, and now. And it uses a lot of energy, it's like, oh, it's bad. [01:21:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:52] Speaker D: Yeah. I feel like we're gonna end up with some kind of friendly, kind of muddy policy on bit toward bitcoin in the US. And that may be not great, but that I don't think that any sort of tax like, that is ever gonna be, like, thing. [01:22:10] Speaker C: Say, isn't it hilarious? Do y'all remember, like five years ago or ten years ago when the idea of bitcoin being like a thing that presidents was talking about was just a joke and then it, it felt that way for a long time and then it just, like, happened, like, immediately. [01:22:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:22:29] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:22:30] Speaker C: Like, I thought, like, last year, I would have thought, like, that's my switch. And now it's like, here. Yeah, it's like, Bamdez. [01:22:35] Speaker D: It was wild. [01:22:37] Speaker B: Like the, the turnaround on some of this stuff is like nuts. Especially with, like, ETF's. Like everything was like a joke. Like the whole, the whole framing and everything. It was still just like this thing that you didn't touch. And then, like, ETF's launched and it was like stories, totally different. Everything, the perception, it's kind of about it. [01:22:54] Speaker D: It was kind of like Kamala's campaign. Like, like Biden is sharp as attack and then, and then suddenly he's gone. [01:23:01] Speaker B: Everybody loves Kamala and everybody loves Kamala. [01:23:04] Speaker D: This is like the media's retarded. [01:23:08] Speaker C: I guess it is the ETF that flipped the switch. [01:23:11] Speaker D: Probably all the banks are suddenly behind it, and so the media is behind it. [01:23:17] Speaker B: Did you hear that Robinhood suspended trading because of global market turmoil? And so this thing that I was reading said that they have to manage risk and comply with financial regulations, so this is why we have to suspend. And they said that the service allows users to manage both bitcoin and traditional currencies. In one account. And all I could think is that nobody has any bitcoin on Robin hood because you can't withdraw it. So they don't, they don't let anybody manage anything. But yeah, that's, that's barely news. Just normal, normal fiat, shitty company stuff. [01:23:56] Speaker C: Carry trade thing, right? [01:23:57] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, probably. [01:24:01] Speaker C: I think the word, the phrase carry trade is funny. I think like a briefcase. Like you're carrying around a trade in your briefcase just in case you need. [01:24:09] Speaker B: To hand it off to somebody in particular. [01:24:12] Speaker C: Carry it around. Carry your trade around. [01:24:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I in particular, if I carry my trade around in a briefcase, I always use handcuffs to make sure that nobody can steal my carry trade. [01:24:24] Speaker D: Main nets, they just chop the guy's arm off. [01:24:28] Speaker B: I want maybe I should just let him take my trade. So main net release of taproot assets on lightning. With taproot assets, users can make instant low fee asset transfers, bringing trillions of stable coin volume to bitcoin. I would really love to. I'm going to channel bitcoin mechanic right now, and I'm going to say that this is all just shit coins and this is all, this is all just ethereum people coming to bitcoin and then trying to put it on top of lightning, and it's terrible. And I think it should all be banned and made illegal and then bitcoin would be better. That's what I think bitcoin mechanic would say. [01:25:05] Speaker D: Honestly, I can't think. [01:25:06] Speaker B: Give me shit about it next time if I'm wrong. [01:25:08] Speaker D: No, I think you're probably right. But I kind of think that tether operating enlightening is a good thing. I don't. I mean, I could be wrong. I don't know. I go back and forth like it's double edged. [01:25:20] Speaker B: I think. I think there are good things and there are bad things about it. And I've been trying to build a guy's take, actually, on this because we've been talking about the bitcoin dollar stuff for a while on the show with chain of custody, Mark Goodwin and Whitney Webb stuff. And I just did, in fact, probably published today, I think I just did their latest read on Trump embraces the bitcoin dollar. And I think, I totally think it's a double edged sword. I think there are really bad things about doing that on top of bitcoin and on top of lightning. But then I also think that there are really good things and there are good, good elements about having stable coins because it means the liquidity, the peer to peer and global infrastructure liquidity between bitcoin and dollars will increase dramatically. The ability for inflows and outflows to happen like that, I think will. It's like the banking collapses in the era of APIs. Is that just overnight, in the middle of the night, you can have $100 billion move. Now imagine if everybody's using stable coins. Like stable coins become normalized. [01:26:26] Speaker D: If even the banks, because the idea is that the banks are going to be able to hold like this. One of the pieces of legislation that Saylor and other people have been talking about is that banks are going to be able to hold bitcoin. And if that gets through the end of this year, the first of next year, then that's a big thing for bitcoin. But also it means that the banks are going to be using lightning and bitcoin rails to move money. And if enough money moves into dollars on bitcoin rails, then the whole system is going to be. So that is the infrastructure inversion, right? That is the cable, that is cable Internet flips, telephone companies thing for the financial system. And so I don't know, like, as long as we can keep devs and stuff working on, you know, things like silent payments, things like improving bitcoin fungibility and improving all this stuff and not get distracted by all the fucking bullshit shitcoin stuff, you know, basically, as long. [01:27:37] Speaker B: As we don't financialize bitcoin development, as long as that's not the outcome. [01:27:44] Speaker D: Well, I mean, and we still need to, you know, like we still need people like mechanic and Luke and whoever, like working on helping people like be sovereign miners or whatever. But you know, if, if things, you know, I like the bit x, I guess one of the news things that's like, I've seen a bunch of people posting about that. I think that's cool. I kind of wanted to get one just to have something plugged in and just to be. Just to have it solo, mine, whatever. I don't know how much it costs, but whatever. If it's. [01:28:23] Speaker C: I had going back to the taproot assets thing. The interesting part of that is, you know how there's this kind of dynamic where there's bolt 14, like mechanics that like bolt 25 and you have corelightning l and d, async, whatever. You have all these parties and they sort of agree on a common spec and sort of don't. Like, I'm really curious how this is going to play out because imagine that like taproot assets becomes popular or something and then they're like, oh, actually we need to add a feature to the protocol, and then corelighting doesn't like that feature. But then taproot assets has, like, a lot of money in it, and then they just kind of, like, push the changes they want onto these protocols. It's. It's a very. I don't see, like, Michael Saylor talks about this a lot, and I was. I wanted to get mechanics view on it, but layer two is. It's something in between the common park, the common grounds thing, and the entrepreneurial thing. You know, I like the. The analogy of just bitcoin, just being a park. Don't poop in the park. Like, this isn't a private property thing, but as soon as you go to layer two, it's like, is this a private property thing? Like. [01:29:45] Speaker D: With bolt twelve, it's, like, left up to wallets to implement it, right. So if we can get enough support for it, then we can use bolt twelve. Right? So maybe, you know, that is enough. And if there are things that are good, you know, we'll see lots of support for them. And if somebody builds bullshit, then nobody will care, and they'll do it in their little corner. [01:30:11] Speaker C: Yeah, it makes sense. [01:30:14] Speaker B: Speaking of, just on the bit axe, news is the finds the 290th solo block on the solo ck pool with a bit axe. Somebody totally got the lottery with a bit axe and found himself a block. And that's pretty baller. It does make me a little bit want a bit axe just to have one. [01:30:36] Speaker C: What's a solo ck pool? [01:30:39] Speaker B: That's. That's apparently a pool that a bunch of people use for solo mining. I don't make any. [01:30:46] Speaker C: How old? Yeah, it does, because you need somebody to construct the template for you. [01:30:50] Speaker E: Okay. [01:30:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:30:51] Speaker C: But, I mean, you could construct the template yourself, but probably wouldn't do a good job at it. But 290 blocks? How long has this pool been around? [01:31:03] Speaker B: I do not know. I feel like it's. It's been around, though. [01:31:07] Speaker C: Like, that's a lot of solo blocks. [01:31:09] Speaker B: Like, yeah, dude. Oh, I got an extra bracket here. I can't click on it. 1 second. [01:31:17] Speaker C: Maybe they actually have a ton of combined hash power because there's a lot of people that want to go solo. [01:31:23] Speaker B: Oh, it's just a mempool link. Yeah. No. So I don't have any details on Ck pool. I might have to check that out. And we should keep in. We should keep in mind that thing about the taproot assets and the park analogy and layer two, because I'm curious about mechanics thoughts, too. We should bring that up. Next time I'll have my AI listen to this and remind me, mutiny wallet shuts down. That sucks. Quote, our company's exploring alternative products will be shutting down the wallet at the end of the year, but you can still self host. That was shit duties. [01:31:57] Speaker C: It's like I said in our chat, it's easy for a bar to accept bitcoin via lightning. All they have to do is change their wallet every two weeks. [01:32:07] Speaker B: Were you using cars? [01:32:09] Speaker C: I mean, mutiny was the one that I was gonna go to because I was kind of easy to set up with fediments and stuff. I mean, now you can do. It's just like, I got no hope that whatever I use is gonna be around in six months. [01:32:24] Speaker B: You know, I'm gonna be using Albie. Albie has been doing amazing day, and Albie hub and stuff is great. I'm gonna kind of shift a lot of my stuff that direction and just really explore because I had a fantastic setup with Phoenix, and then my BTC pay, like, going back and forth between, like, Phoenix was kind of my front facing and BTC pay was kind of the back end and where I would dump bitcoin and stuff. And then Phoenix left the US, and I was just like, shit, I can't. I can't recommend this anymore. Like, I mean, I can still use it, but I can't. I can't give it to somebody, you know. [01:32:58] Speaker D: Cool, cool news for Phoenix, even though they're not here anymore, is that they added bolt twelve support. [01:33:03] Speaker B: Yes. That's pretty ball. [01:33:05] Speaker D: I don't think that's. [01:33:06] Speaker B: It just pisses me off. Just pisses me off. But Phoenix added bolt twelve. Yeah. [01:33:12] Speaker C: So you got the public park layer. Two wallets. Lightning wallets. They're like the. The hot dog stand that, like, just pulls up to the park and then at least all these little businesses around the park, you know, the park's gonna be there forever. They have no idea. [01:33:29] Speaker B: Where's my hot dog place? [01:33:31] Speaker D: I love those. [01:33:32] Speaker B: The best hot dogs in the whole park. [01:33:34] Speaker C: I wish there's unity funded hot dog place. [01:33:38] Speaker D: There's. There's a handful of things about Aqua wallet that I wish, you know, like, I wish they would add, like, a lock screen and, you know, like, some. Some other features, but. But I feel like that one. Yeah. Like, that's a super easy one to direct people to. And it doesn't have the problem of, like, you know, lightning balances getting, you know, like, your channels got closed. Channels getting closed or whatever. [01:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's not the best from, like, a handful of, like, really, like, serious kind of, you know, your. Your own, like, because, you know, it's a liquid balance that shifts in and out of lightning, but it's really stable. It's the. The cost. The fees are kind of expected, you know, like, there's not any, like, crazy volatility or variance in it. You don't have to open and close or splice channels randomly where it's like, oh, every. Every fee was ten sats. Ten sats. Ten sats. 2000 sats. Why the hell did that happen? You know, Aqua is a great one to recommend right now. That's kind of been my go to. [01:34:43] Speaker D: Yeah, hopefully it'll stick around. [01:34:44] Speaker B: Yeah, we're actually getting to the end of this list here. Ark to donate. This is Ark invest. Not like Ark Labs. Ark invest to donate. A fixed percentage. This is Kathy. Oh, my God, I forgot her name. But they are donating a fixed percentage of their revenue to open source contributors through opensats, human rights foundation, and brink and opensets. And that's pretty crazy. So not profit. They're not donating a percentage of their profit. They're donating a percentage of their revenue to open source development. So that's pretty cool. [01:35:32] Speaker C: I don't have anything against open source development. I think it's cool and funding it or whatever, but I can't help but notice that the greatest open source things are done by people without funding. I mean, it's like. Yeah, it's kind of like people that are just writing code because they're getting paid to write code. Like, they never write anything great. And I know, but, I mean, it still helps. I don't want these coders that don't have any money to not get paid to. The great stuff's never really written by the paid coder, like, ever. I just can't help but notice that. [01:36:12] Speaker B: Have you ever read the book for fun and for profit? [01:36:15] Speaker C: No. It sounds like a book I'd love, though. [01:36:17] Speaker B: Yeah. It's literally about open source history development. Like, just kind of, like, looking through the open source community and history and, like, what is. And that was one of the things is that like, 95% of projects or whatever, even huge projects, are literally maintained and basically all of the work is done by, like, one dude. Almost always. [01:36:37] Speaker C: Yeah. It's a different motivation. It's a different. [01:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And there's usually, like a shit ton of people who dance around the project and contribute a little bit and then leave. And most of the. Sometimes it's like a help, but most of the time it's just like people who ask questions and like need support. So it's just like more work for the maintainer to have a community around him because it's just people badgering the shit out of them. [01:37:06] Speaker E: Yeah. [01:37:08] Speaker B: Fetty also launched at Fetty XYZ, so they are out of alpha Beta, whatever, which I haven't figured out how to launch my own community without like they have like a thing that they're letting, letting you do it through them like a waitlist thing, but you can do it yourself if you're like, like self hosting or whatever. And I wanted to really just kind of like set one up for maybe the audio knots and just kind of like explore and see what's, see what's going on. But that's pretty exciting. Thoughts on Fetty and Federated e cash and all that good stuff. [01:37:45] Speaker D: It's good stuff. I mean like I think, I think the combination of, you know, liquid fediments and you know, having all this stuff networked via lightning is going to be a huge, huge privacy improvement and a huge, like, it's really unlocking like the ability to do, you know, we could bring back darknet markets and all sorts of things and, and that's exciting. [01:38:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. I can't wait for it to unfold. I'm not as early of adopter as I used to be. I kind of, when I think about, I've never really been an early adopter of technologies just for the sake of technology. I mean with bitcoin, this is like world changing philosophical movement, you know, so I'm going to early adopt that, but I'm not really that techy, nerdy, geeky. Like overall, I just kind of like I am get into something when it's like gonna be really important. So it's like if I don't know if something's gonna be around in two months, like I have a hard time making myself do it. [01:38:50] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:38:51] Speaker C: But I am excited. [01:38:53] Speaker B: It's hard to deliver time to allocate time to shit. Like without a doubt, just because there's always a million things. Right. But this part, that's part of the why, part of why I like the show is it forces me to do that. So I just kind of explore things for the sake of saving other people the time. If it's, if it's not that great or if, you know, we don't even know if it is going to become a thing. [01:39:16] Speaker C: Yeah, maybe this show will make me more into that stuff. [01:39:21] Speaker B: That's, that was my, that's my whole goal. This is actually my secret underlying mission is to just give simple Steve to install shit on his computer. [01:39:31] Speaker D: Complicated Steve. [01:39:33] Speaker B: Complicated. I'm trying to complicate simple Steve. [01:39:39] Speaker D: Simple. [01:39:41] Speaker B: University of Wyoming launches a bitcoin research institute. So they're going to. It's basically an academic institute dedicated to bitcoin research, producing peer reviewed publications about bitcoin from all academic disciplines. The institute plans to address fundamental questions about money and digital currency. I mean, that's. Part of me says, that sounds great, but I don't know what to say. I have such a disdain for academia that I just don't know. I don't know if I think of that as a good thing. Is that an attempt to make academia better? Is that going to improve academia, or is this just bitcoin? Now we're going to have the academia version of bitcoin, which sounds horrible. It sounds like I want to. [01:40:32] Speaker D: I think it's the latter. One of those eth people I was accidentally arguing with said that she took a bit of class. Really? Said that she took a bitcoin class. It was taught by a bit bitcoin core contributor. And I'm like, look, I don't care. It doesn't matter. You really still don't understand this? But, like, I don't know. It's so bad. It's so bad. I don't. I don't like, universities are just cancer. Like, the whole, like, the whole system is cancer. [01:41:06] Speaker E: Yeah. [01:41:07] Speaker C: I, you know, I am an academic. You know, I did the PhD postdoc thing, and, like, I wanted to be a professor for a long time, and it's really hard for me to just kind of let go of the idea. I mean, I, like, that would have been my dream, to be, like, a bitcoin professor, you know, just like, five or six years ago. And it's. It's really hard for me to just accept the fact that university just sucks. There's still a part of me, but. [01:41:34] Speaker B: You know in your heart of hearts that it's true. [01:41:37] Speaker C: I just want to wear that tweed jacket, like the elbow pad, and just, like, I just walk around the university. [01:41:43] Speaker B: With my briefcase, carrying my trade around. [01:41:51] Speaker C: I still kind of have that dream, but my politics are just not going to be right to ever have a university job. [01:41:59] Speaker D: The girl that I'm dating right now has a PhD in computer science from the university in Montreal, and she's like, no, all the. All the people here is stupid. She's like, she's like. I was like. I was like. Said something like, yeah, but you have a PhD. She's like, yeah, that doesn't mean anything. Like, she was like, all these people. [01:42:21] Speaker C: Are retarded people getting PhDs, too. [01:42:25] Speaker D: They've all got purple hair and, you know, like, whatever. I guess that's not necessarily the worst. You know, part of it is the hair color could be, you know, a distraction, but it. But there's a high correlation. [01:42:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:42:42] Speaker B: There are two items here that really sound like fiat stuff, so we're going to just skip those. And there are two more. This is, well, I've been saving stuff, but I have to agree. Like, after we started getting into it, is that like. Yeah. I was told this isn't a fiat. This isn't a fiat thing. [01:43:01] Speaker D: Old men, public. That's a fiat thing. Sort of, but it's. But I like, fold. [01:43:04] Speaker B: That was going to be the last thing folds. Not a fiat thing. Folds. Been. [01:43:08] Speaker D: Well, going public is a little bit opaque. [01:43:12] Speaker C: I got a question about fold. [01:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:16] Speaker C: So I think I need to get back into it because I didn't know that they offered the routing number, checking account number and so that you could, like, pay your rent via that. Do you, do you actually get rewards if you go that method, like, through the bank draft? [01:43:30] Speaker B: So they, for the longest time they did nothing and it's because they don't make any money off of it. The reason they have debit card rewards is because most companies and banks get debit card fees and that's how they make their money on the payment side of things. And so they are just pushing all those fees basically to the user and then making money just off the subscription. So they're basically just like, you can have as much as you want and then we just have stable subscriptions so you can get $20 out of the fees if you're using the debit card enough. Totally fine. However, and especially with like, gift cards, they have done, they've started limited rewards with Ach. Like, it's not every single transaction and it's like, not a lot, but they apparently are making enough capital that they're like, okay, we can actually afford to do this and push a little bit more and reward people for Ach stuff as well. I just got that notification like a week ago or something in my email. I haven't done it yet in the quite a while. [01:44:32] Speaker D: Credit card. [01:44:33] Speaker B: I really, really do. They do need a credit card. But honestly, fold has just been like, everything's like slow, gradual growth. But, dude, the number of things they now have, the roundups that I have always wanted, you can buy and sell bitcoin inside of it. You. You have the rewards that you get. Like, I still do the gift cards constantly. Amazon, just like that wheel. I just like. [01:44:58] Speaker C: You just like spinning that wheel. Just admit it. That's the only reason you like it. [01:45:02] Speaker E: Uh uh. [01:45:04] Speaker B: It's not the wheel. Oh, don't say it. Don't bring it up. [01:45:09] Speaker C: Remind you. A wheel of fortune. [01:45:13] Speaker B: So good. So good. It's my gamble, man. I'm not a degenerate. I don't want to. It's not about the spins. It's not about the spins. I swear to God. [01:45:23] Speaker D: I want a. Want a $100 from the wheel at bit black. Boom. I was so excited about that, dude. [01:45:29] Speaker B: I got one back. Back in the day when. When they were, like, doing, like, footage for real rewards, and they were, like, even on the. On the spin, they had a get your 100% back. Um, I made. I got the hundred percent back on my plane ticket to Mexico. [01:45:47] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [01:45:48] Speaker C: Wow. [01:45:49] Speaker B: For real. It was legit. I was like, oh, snap. I just got a free trip up to a bitcoin conference thanks to fold. But, yeah, I'm just super. I'm super jazzed about them. Fold has been my main ever since. I have never. I've never stopped fold. I withdrew, like, a couple. Couple years ago, and what do I got right now? Yeah, I have 6.7 million sats in rewards. So, like, $4,300. And, like, it's just still. Just use. [01:46:21] Speaker D: That's great. [01:46:22] Speaker B: Just gift cards. Anytime I can. I get normal rewards. I get the spins. If you just use this for everything, it adds up quick, man. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I'm proud of them, man. That's. That's fucking cool that they're going public. I mean, you know, public company is usually, like, you know, like, new interests and new people now saying what you can and can't do. But. And just in regards to the success of the company and the fact that, like, they've gotten this far and they've been. They've been holding bitcoin since. Since the beginning. They just accepted bitcoin for Starbucks. Starbucks gift cards, and I used them way back then. That's awesome. That's awesome. So, kudos. [01:47:09] Speaker D: He said, on what bitcoin did, that they've got, like, a thousand bitcoin treasury. So, yeah. That's awesome. [01:47:19] Speaker C: It's impressive. [01:47:20] Speaker D: It is. [01:47:22] Speaker C: They still in Durham? Are they still in Durham? [01:47:26] Speaker B: Were they? [01:47:26] Speaker D: Were they? I don't know that. [01:47:28] Speaker C: No way. No way. I'm confused. I'm thinking of Lolly. [01:47:32] Speaker B: Oh, Lolly. That's right. Yeah. Lolly was in town. Lolly was. Lolly was in the triangle area. I think we really hit it. I think we did it, guys. I think we. I think we alluded our first roundtable. And I'm really. Mechanic had to leave because only y'all. He was my least favorite. He was my least favorite of the group. [01:47:55] Speaker C: Um, I had a bunch of questions for mechanic. Um, but I have to ask that next time. [01:48:00] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll save it. We'll save it for roundtable number two, dude. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys. This was. This was an absolute blast. I would love to keep doing this. I think this is a fun format to just, like, kind of riff on all the news items. And I usually have an ulterior motive with all of my shows is that it forces me to keep up with something, you know? And this forces me to stay up on the news and actually talk about the news, because typically, that's not my show, and I don't want to make a. The whole show about news, but this gives me the. It removes my guilt from someone being like, I didn't even know about this thing that happened two weeks ago because you didn't talk about that shit on the show. You just did another read on austrian economics. It's like, well, you should have listened to the roundtable. Okay. [01:48:49] Speaker C: Yeah. I have a similar view. It's like, I don't really like the news, but I do feel sort of a responsibility for, like, new people when they kind of ask me about something, like, it's. And so I like that, you know, this will give me a reason to keep, like, one eye, half of one eye, like, an 8th, a 10th of an eye on the niche 8th, a. [01:49:11] Speaker B: 10Th of an eye. That's all. That's all this needs. If you do an 8th, an 8th is too much. Too much. Dial it back a little bit, Steve. Come on. Keep it simple. All right, well, I will keep dropping news items and anything, guys, that you find that you think is newsworthy that we want to cover, just drop it in the keep room. We will leave that open. And thank you for joining me. Jeff, why don't you go ahead and just shout out where people can follow you, find you, and then, Steve, why don't you follow it up there? [01:49:43] Speaker D: Noster? I don't. I don't really have anything else. [01:49:47] Speaker B: What's your in pub? Can you read that off real quick? [01:49:50] Speaker D: Yeah. No. Jeff Swan and. Or at Agris view. [01:49:58] Speaker B: Agris. [01:49:59] Speaker D: Agrist. Agarus is ag. O r ist. Agrist. View simple. [01:50:04] Speaker B: Steve, are you on, are you noster much? I don't think. [01:50:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I was on Noster. It. I, like, deleted the domestic app when, like, the transition from test flight to main net. And I haven't gotten it back yet, but I am going to get on. Get back on Oster again if I can find my keys. And, yeah, I'm just way more, it's. [01:50:24] Speaker D: Way more chill than the other social medias. [01:50:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I'm looking. I liked it when I was on it. I just need to get back. But, yeah, I'm Steve simple on Twitter. [01:50:33] Speaker B: Yeah, Nostra is like the Raleigh bitcoin meetup of social medias. You know, like, it's just like, it's a solid crew and you just, you just want to be there. You just want to be there and hang out with people because you need. [01:50:46] Speaker D: To follow, for anybody that's joining, you need to follow at least two or 300 people because it feels dead. It feels like there's nobody there. Until you follow enough people. It's not like Twitter. Like, there. You're not going to have anything. [01:50:58] Speaker B: They're not going to push stuff in front of you. If you're not following somebody. That's. [01:51:02] Speaker D: And you can follow hashtags. You can follow hashtags. So if you put in, you know, like, there's a little bit. People spam the hashtags a little bit. But if you put in hashtags and follow those, then that's a good way to find people to follow, too, so. [01:51:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Amen. That's good advice. Good advice. Follow a lot of people on noster when you, when you get up there and you'll. You'll have a much better time. [01:51:24] Speaker C: I just follow everyone that somebody else is following? [01:51:27] Speaker B: Yes, you can. There's literally a button for that. Like, button. You just want to, like, jump up and, like, follow everybody I'm following or everybody's just following or something. You can just start there and then just eliminate when you realize total more. What is Jeff? I. This, in my opinion of Jeff has dropped quite a bit because he follows this dude. You just knock that one out and then you curate from there. All right, guys, thank you all for joining. This is the first roundtable. We are out. [01:51:57] Speaker D: That's fun. [01:51:58] Speaker B: Catch you next. [01:51:59] Speaker D: Later. [01:52:05] Speaker B: And we will be back next month with another roundtable discussion of all of the major news and events that have happened. [01:52:13] Speaker A: If you have anything that you want. [01:52:15] Speaker B: Me to cover, this will be a perfect example of just a perfect opportunity to tag me on Noster. Tag me on Twitter, whatever your social platform of choice is, and I will try to keep up on that. I collect news and events and we share it in the room and we'll be able to discuss it and get in details as we go throughout the month. So anything that you think oh, I would love to get your take on this, or I'd love to get mechanics or Steve's or Jeff's take on this, please shout it out. [01:52:45] Speaker A: Let me know. [01:52:46] Speaker B: It will help in all of the back end work to keep this show up to date and pull our research together. So I really appreciate it. I really hope you enjoyed this discussion and you like this format because I want to keep doing it and I think it's a ton of fun and I love getting everybody together. These are all friends of mine, obviously, and and I really do think, I really think that do think this will have a lot of a lot of specific knowledge and perspective on these events and how they play into things. I'm excited about guys Roundtable, I hope you are too. A shout out to coinkite for supporting this show. It wouldn't be possible without all of you. Without coinkite, without all of you who use my affiliate codes to help out with the services and stuff that I use, who support me on fountain with value for value and streaming sats, who send me boosts, who zap me on noster, you name it. Your support is what keeps this show running and makes me know that it gives me a reason for doing this. Thank you guys so much for listening, so much for subscribing and sharing it out. That's also another fantastic way that you can support the show. [01:53:56] Speaker A: Just share it out with the people. [01:53:58] Speaker B: You know that you think will get value out of this, especially this new series. So thank you all and I will catch you on the next episode. And until then, everybody take it easy guys.