Roundtable_019 - Bitcoin's In-House Stress Test

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What is up, guys? Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible. I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else. You know, we've got the round table back in action. This is a really, really great episode. A lot happened in March. Some really cool stuff around mining. I mean, some of it sounds a lot like bad news, but I think most of it was just really cool. We found out that Steve was a super masochist, which is kind of exciting. Ignore the construction. We've actually got sheetrock going up downstairs and I'm so freaking excited. This is music to my ears right now, if you can hear this. Tons of stuff to get into. We did get a little bit into bit 110. Not a. Not a lot, not a ton has changed in the last month to get into. But we did cover a couple of regulatory changes, some legal stuff, the two block reorg by Foundry and the probability that it was on purpose and some of the elements as to why we might see this actually naturally occur. Because I think a lot of people jump the gun. Done. But there is an element of could it be an attack and if it was an attack, how would it look? Is this. Is this similar or not? I actually learned a couple of things in the breakdown and I thought Mechanic did a really good job being sensible about it, especially with them knowing all of the complications and frustrations of running a mining pool. Then we got into some of the. The differences between stratum V2 and datum. So a lot to get into. Really fun episode. One last note though is don't forget to check out. I've got a bunch of affiliate links and discount codes and stuff which are a great way to support the show. They're right down in the show notes. A lot of these, all of these are services and products and things that I use and have for a really long time and. Or people that I work with and trust. That is why I make them available. And they are also a great way to support the show that either get you a discount or are completely free for you. So thank you to everyone who uses them. Thank you to the audionauts for supporting the show. I love you guys and. And thanks for everybody checking out Pear Drive and Pear Drop and the tools that we're building. I know everything's still rough alpha versions, but it's fun to get a little bit of feedback and see what other people are doing with them. So thank you all for that. And without further ado, let's get into. Guys. Roundtable number 19. This is in house stress testing with the roundtable. [00:02:24] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:02:29] Speaker A: What's up, guys? Welcome back. We got mechanic Steve, myself and my brother Jeff. And it's been. We're. What month is it? Or is it March? April? I don't even know. I'm so disconnected. [00:02:45] Speaker C: End of March. [00:02:46] Speaker A: The world is the end of March. Okay, good. It's been a. Been a long year. All week. And we're at war with Iran and they're about to get a nuke again. And bitcoin is. Wait, bitcoin's dumping? I think today. Yeah, it's been dumping really, but a little bit, you know. Oh, yeah, 65, 65. 6. And that is apparently stressing some miners. Uh, but before we. Before we get into that stuff specifically, let's start. Mechanic. What's up, my dude? How you been, man? [00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah, good. Just looking at things change. [00:03:31] Speaker D: How? [00:03:32] Speaker B: I think some of my assumptions around mining were kind of wrong. And I'll get into why. Um, because I think we're going to talk about miners a lot in this. So. But other than that, yeah, pretty good Spring break. I've been spending a lot of time with my family. Been a bit quieter on Twitter, which has been a nice little break, but I think we're getting ready for the last leg of the VIP110 war. We got three months left now until mandatory activation, so it's going to ramp up again, I think. [00:04:02] Speaker C: 3. It's April, May, June, July. Isn't it? 5. [00:04:08] Speaker A: I thought it was August. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Um, yeah, sorry, It's August. April, May, June, July. Yeah, four months. [00:04:14] Speaker C: Correct. [00:04:15] Speaker B: I mean, July is when everyone basically has to have decided one way or the other. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Steve, how about you, man? [00:04:24] Speaker C: I'm good, man. I'm officially on Team Claude. I've been. I'm deep in there now. I know I'm a little late to the party, but. [00:04:33] Speaker D: Nice. [00:04:34] Speaker C: I have some pro tips for people that are vibe coding software that connects to their bitcoin node. It's a good idea to double check your requests for block data or other kinds of data. I found some errors. The standard way is to do like a simple and you just ask Claude to write a RPC function and Python or something to get data from a certain block number. Really good idea. Takes you like two minutes, is to be like, dump all of the UTXO amounts from this block into a CSV file and then ask Claude independently to write a C program which gets the block data in a completely different way. So you can still use bitcoin cli to get data. You can get RPC in two different ways, either through the JSON or through the raw binary. Or if you want to do it really independently, there's a way to read the block data that Bitcoin has written to disk without even going through your node at all. Just ask it to. [00:05:45] Speaker A: Oh, that's nice. [00:05:46] Speaker C: Figure out how to read BLK files. That takes a little bit longer, but doing this gave me a ton of more confidence to keep building my stuff. Because, you know, if you're building a website or something, it doesn't really matter if you have little errors. If you get one transaction wrong in Bitcoin, it can be game over for a lot of different things. So. And it just takes two seconds. So have a independent method of dumping block data to text files and then you ask. You don't have to compare the text files, right? Just ask Claude to compare the text files. Like literally takes two seconds. And it gives me a lot more confidence in building. Nice quick tip on that. [00:06:34] Speaker A: No, I've been, I've been frustrated with my open call lately, actually. It's still fantastic as like a general admin, but I'm more and more annoyed. Like, I love how it takes context when and trying to make broader design decisions and I like it for brainstorming because it has a better idea of the reason for the project. It has the project manifest and you know, and it knows like its hierarchy in relation to a bunch of other things. So that part has been really useful. But I've actually found it really kind of annoying with code. And I kind of migrate back to Claude code to actually work on stuff because it will give me. It won't just run off and do 30 things and it will show me the block of code and I can kind of scan through and I can catch it if it's doing something stupid because every once in a while it's just, it just turns again or like context gets too big and it just, it just decides to do something that I've told it not to do like 10 times and I've put it in a rule, but the context is so deep that it's, it's lost sight of the rule. And so it just does the same stupid shit. And like I will catch it with claw code because I'm reading every step and actually guiding it. So when I realize it's like, oh, well, we just need a hyperdrive manager and we're going to do this, this and this and this. And it's like, wait a second, we have a. We have drive manager. We Have Drive Manager. Js, why are you building a whole new hyperdrive manager? Like, oh, you're absolutely right. We should just use the drive manager that we already have and I should just add a new function. And, and, and, but Jarvis. But my, my open call will literally just like it would just make a whole new hyperdrive manager. Not even remember that the old one is there and then I have to fucking. And it just produces a result and then there's some other bug and we find out is because we have two functions doing the exact same damn thing that have two different names. And, and then I have to go back and I have to go to Open Claude code and be like, can you write me just a map of this whole fucking thing and all the functions and all this shit? And, and like, so I just spend, I spend a ton of time correcting it and it loses. God, it makes common like very, very bad common sense mistakes every once in a while. Too perfect for jotting down ideas for my reminders. My calendar, it keeps up with all that stuff fantastically. But I find myself wanting to go back to Claude code and then when I'm changing something or doing something with Jarvis, I, I, I literally take that pair, drop it to Jarvis and then be like, okay, I want you to modify this or something very, very specific. And, and I have to make sure I add in two sets of instructions of like, please don't do anything without proposing it first and letting me confirm. Because remember, you're retarded and we need to, we need to take this step by step and it's like, you are correct, I am retarded. We do need to take this slowly. But anyway, that's, that's been my latest experience. [00:09:45] Speaker B: The, the context stuff with AI is really annoying. Like, part of what I've learned about prompting so far is get everything you need in the first request and just get it right the first time. Because if, if you miss a bit of context out of the initial request and you're like, oh no wait, you did it this way, I need you to do it that way. Then it just basically starts again. So, and I've been using Gemini because, you know, it's, it's about 60, 70% of what Claude is. And I've managed to make it do a couple of things good. But Claude is like dialed in for like producing code and stuff. Like the annoying thing with Gemini I found is when it, when it changes a bunch of code and you, if you, if you cleverly don't want to give whatever you're running AI, whatever command line you're running AI and you don't want to give it access to your git stuff. You don't want it to be able to push to your GitHub and stuff like that. So I was air gap it. So I generate a bunch of new code, then git diff and I echo the diff into some patch and then I apply the patch in another repo on another machine and then push that to GitHub once I'm happy with it. And it keeps. Like Claude would do that flawlessly or Gemini would keep creating all this dead white space and stuff and it would be really annoying to debug it. Like the code works when I run it, but when I try and actually apply the git diff, it's complaining about white space. And I'm like, that's just. That breaks my whole workflow. Because now you're making me want to cut a corner and give my git credentials to the machine. I have Claude and Gemini installed and [00:11:22] Speaker D: I don't want to do that. [00:11:23] Speaker B: Like, I know that would be sloppy practice to do stuff like that. So yeah, Claude TLDR has been the best so far. [00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I also just read a paper which I found really interesting and I've been doing it. I can't say I know for certain that it's been producing better results, but it does kind of feel like it for the short span of time I've been testing it. But I read a paper talking about like how, how it deals with like semantic connections like in the, in the weighting system and why having context before and after what your request is is actually useful because of, because of, because of how how it relates tokens relate forward and backward in, in like a prompt. And that something that increased the, [00:12:16] Speaker B: the, [00:12:17] Speaker A: the value or the correctness, so to speak of the, of the output was literally after you write your whole prompt, after you write, write whatever you're trying to get it to do, copy it and then paste it again right underneath it. So you have like your context and then your question, and then you have your context again in your question again you just like literally just double tap every single thing. And supposedly it's like a huge, a huge boost in like how, how it actually works. Because again, it's one of those things that repetition, it's less likely to lose something out of context. But I've actually been doing that more recently, so I might, I might actually try to do a, a little bit of side by side Maybe with like Claude code and Jarvis or whatever and see if, see if I get one that's significantly better than the other, but. Oh my God, I've spent so much time vibe coding. Jesus Christ. [00:13:13] Speaker D: I've just been playing with my. The LLM I've got running on my laptop, which. [00:13:20] Speaker A: You got Quinn, right? [00:13:21] Speaker D: Yeah, the Quinn 32 billion parameter model is. It's really, really good. But I don't know, I go back and forth between like I haven't, I still haven't done. I don't feel like I've like done anything with it. Like I'm. I. I mean I'm playing with it regularly. Bit like I don't feel like I've actually accomplished anything. I mean I got it to like write me. I'm working on handful of different things at the same time too. I'm kind of spread out all over the place. Got it to. To write me a letter which I didn't had to edit but. But it was. It was decent. And then mostly I've been just fighting with government paperwork. [00:14:06] Speaker A: I have. [00:14:07] Speaker D: I've been talk. I've talked to like three or four different lawyers in the last couple of days. I am. I spent a whole day filling out forms and trying to figure out how to send off for my. Oops. For my background check, which is way more complicated than it should be. Like, I just. And I swear I don't know if I'm just retarded or something. But you access. [00:14:38] Speaker A: It's probably that. [00:14:39] Speaker D: I mean it. It's possible but the, the website, the government website I have to go to. The Alphabet soup website I have to go to is. He says something like if you continue beyond this point, you're. You acknowledge that you are accessing a database that will now include your computer. And if you misuse this, you know, is. It basically says they can take your computer if they don't like what you. Like what you access or something. [00:15:15] Speaker A: I'm like what? [00:15:17] Speaker D: Like I am not like publicly available. I'm not granting you permission like looking up my own. Your records of my own history. I'm not granting you permission to take my computer. Like this is. And then you have some sort of intermediary intermediaries you can hire to like do all the filing and stuff for you. But that only works if you're in the US So I don't know. [00:15:51] Speaker A: I mean just buy a backup computer. [00:15:54] Speaker D: Well, I mean I have a cheap thing that I can, you know, like access it from, but it just doesn't. It just makes Me feel so icky. [00:16:00] Speaker B: Like I don't. [00:16:00] Speaker D: Like the whole process is just awful and. But you know, maybe one day I'll be done with. It's gonna be. It's gonna be years, so it doesn't really matter. [00:16:16] Speaker A: It's gonna be eight or nine years from now. [00:16:18] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:21] Speaker A: But when you finally, when you finally have a visa and, and, and then you can start on the citizenship process. [00:16:28] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:31] Speaker C: Yay. [00:16:32] Speaker A: God. Jesus. And the, the war and everything. I don't know. Nothing. Everything feels, you know, there is, there is actually like a bit of an interesting hope, even though it also means that like so much of the political world is a disaster. Like, it's so volatile. Like, I feel like we're gonna, we're gonna get like a, a heavy swing back to Democrats and I literally think the. It's gonna ramp up on both sides. Like I think we're gonna get like Democrats going full communists, Republicans going like full fascists. They're already just gonna. It literally just ramp like massive swings like both ways and nothing is going to be reliable. [00:17:17] Speaker D: They are sowing the seeds for, for straight up communist socialist polic and because [00:17:23] Speaker B: they're doing a lot of energy. Like I hear a talk of energy policing. Like the whole Iran thing is a good pretext, like for a carbon quota. Like you can only fly X amount per year and like, like air travel gets increasingly disrupted and expensive and unreliable. So I mean, I see people getting worried about that. [00:17:45] Speaker D: So many of the posts and libertarian groups on Facebook and elsewhere, like, it's like, how come we're paying to bomb all these countries and we don't even have free health care? Like it's just over and over and over. Like it's like Israel has free health care that we're paying for. Like, they just keep like dropping this idea that if you're anti war, you have to be pro free health. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Free health care. [00:18:12] Speaker D: Yeah. And so, so I think, yeah, I think they're really pushing hard for, for a, a flip back giveaway. And I was. Cernovich suggested that because Trump, he's like that basically the never Trumpers that he has aligned himself with the neocons or whatever that were previously all the people that did not want him elected because he's aligned himself with them and thrown everybody else under the bus that what's going to happen is they actually hate him and that they are going to use the lack of popularity of the war that they wanted to impeach Trump. Like it's gonna, it's gonna destroy him in the midterms or destroy the Republicans in the midterms, and then they're gonna have a majority. They're gonna be able to impeach Trump [00:19:00] Speaker A: and the Rhinos will go along with it. [00:19:03] Speaker D: Yeah, it's. Well, there's. Nobody's going to be there to defend him, like, because he's thrown everybody under the bus and so, so they're going to create, like, they're basically manufacturing the idea that they had that, you know, like, oh, Trump's some sort of tyrant. They're like, they're like, creating it by manipulating him into this, like, pro war, like, whatever, even though he ran completely against all of that. And I don't know. I mean, like, I don't know. He's a horrible piece of. So it doesn't really matter, but it's just, it feels like the whole thing is going to be a scam that benefits the very people that he was voted, like, supposedly voted in to, you know, get rid of. Like, it's going to make all of them more powerful. It's just gross. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Trump is awful, man. I, I really was. I was enjoying like, a lot of what was going on politically, like, from 2016 sort of onwards. It was fun watching the Democrats get humiliated and all that and watching like, the woke thing kind of break, but it was such a shallow thing to ever celebrate or be excited about when it comes the ugly depth of how rotten and gross the American political establishment is. Just getting an, A new face for a while. Like, hey, you know, we don't want women and men in women's bathrooms. And like, these trivialities, like, it's, it's. I can't believe for a minute I was even, like, remotely tolerant of it. Like, it's just awful. Like, I can't, I can't believe there are still Democrats and Republicans at this point. Like, everyone's been betrayed by both sides multiple times in this life, so how can you possibly think you're on one team and not the other? [00:20:51] Speaker A: It's, it's every, it's literally every election now. Like, and I, I really think it's going to get, like, worse and worse and people are just going to get pissed. And, and what sucks is, like, I don't think, I think we have such a cowed, like, population that are just like, well, eventually it will just sort itself out. And like, I just need to do what I'm told is that like, like, like very, very serious, like, really horrible damage I think has to be done before anything actually gets done about it. I think the Epstein Files are just a great example as everybody's just. There's so many people that are just furious and they're just like, what. How is, how is nothing happening? How is nothing happening from this? [00:21:39] Speaker D: The CEO of Palantir previously said that he thought that the US Was going to be on a, in a three front war, like a world war and going through a civil war at the same time. And so if, I mean, so far it looks like we could be headed that way. I don't know. You know, but I, I think the, the civil war will be. I think they'll try to manufacture that from the left somehow. Like, it'll be. They'll like, maybe they'll pretend to impeach Trump and then let him get away with everything so that they can [00:22:25] Speaker A: excite [00:22:26] Speaker D: the left enough to like, you know, with a, with a no kings protest 5.0 or whatever, go and you know, like attack DC in. In an actual, like what they claim January 6th was supposed to be. [00:22:40] Speaker A: And I think, I think most of the left would literally jizz themselves if they felt that they could punish. [00:22:48] Speaker D: Yeah, [00:22:51] Speaker A: basically anyone and every. Like, like if they got the, like the vaccine passports, like punish the people who are killing grandmas. Yeah. Like, situation back, which they may very well get back that they will, they will be over themselves in relief that they can like really do serious harm to people. [00:23:13] Speaker D: Well, the people that they're, they're cowardly people that were chasing status in the first place. Like that, that was the whole like if you were submitting. The only thing they're good at is competing to be most obedient and, and the, the act like since then. [00:23:28] Speaker A: Well, they think that's the, the metric of being good people. [00:23:32] Speaker D: Sure. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Are you doing what you're told, but [00:23:34] Speaker D: it's all born out of deep cowardice and self loathing and like it's not. This is not, not no healthy person thinks that way. And so, so they're, they're now all extremely stressed out. And I mean everybody knows some, some like lefty friend or family member that is like completely lost their mind since COVID Right. Like there's somebody know, you know, somebody that like you just can't talk to anymore. And yeah, and so if you create, if you bring the situation back, that allows them to feel redeemed. Like, because right now they feel lost in the dark. Like they can't give up. They, they invested so heavily. It's, it's. This is like cult. What happens with cults, right? It's like you, you put such an Emotional and financial and whatever investment into a certain set of beliefs and then. And then they can't. They can't afford it. Like, crushes them to have to abandon that. And so if you can then bring back the. The space where. [00:24:41] Speaker A: Give them an avenue for their. [00:24:43] Speaker D: For to release redemption stress, then. Then. Then they're gonna. Yeah, they're gonna go even harder the next time. So. Yeah. I don't know. It. It's a little. And that's a. That's. I think it is like. It's literally like the. What's the Batman. You know, the. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Which. [00:25:00] Speaker D: Which is the one where the. The Joker has. Has all the crazies let out of the asylum and. And is using them to rob everybody and. And destroy things. Yeah, that's. That's kind of where we're at. [00:25:21] Speaker C: I've been liking the. The memes, like, all the jokes about the. The war. I loved that one. That was like, how two weeks away are we this time? Oh, that's a really bad kind of two weeks. We're way more two weeks than we were five years ago when we were two weeks. I mean, the meme quality is. [00:25:44] Speaker A: I didn't think you saw the AI video. Yeah. Where it was like, how two weeks away are we. [00:25:50] Speaker C: I'll be honest. [00:25:50] Speaker A: We're even more two weeks away than we were five years ago. Oh, my God. [00:25:56] Speaker C: I'm usually never into international news and never politics, but I'm a little bit more now because of the level of humor and memes. Like, I'll admit I'm a little into that. I do like to laugh. [00:26:10] Speaker A: I will. I. There's. There's one very interesting element here is that the Iran war has reached a level of unpopularity that took Iraq war eight years, you know, and it was like, eight days. [00:26:26] Speaker C: That's nice to see war. [00:26:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:29] Speaker B: I don't know. I think Iraq was immediately past the threshold of unpopular to the. Maybe. Maybe it's different in America. In Europe, there was an alien of us in London that marched through saying, we do not want this. And Tony Blair and George Bush were like, you know, they were the two main figureheads of the whole thing. [00:26:47] Speaker A: I don't think that was the U.S. yeah. That was not. [00:26:50] Speaker D: They prepared the U.S. much, much better [00:26:52] Speaker A: for the Iraq war. [00:26:53] Speaker D: There was a lot of propaganda. [00:26:54] Speaker B: Yeah. They did 9, 11 to freaking. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:26:58] Speaker B: Let's be honest here. [00:27:00] Speaker D: Well, and there's a lot of rumors that, like, what's his name? Silverstein or whatever. He just. He, like, bought some building and put. Put it a Terrorist insurance. Insurance claim. Yeah, like two weeks on it or something. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah, there. [00:27:15] Speaker D: And somebody said. Somebody said they thought it'd be the World cup because there's like a bunch of World cup games held in California this year. I don't know the. It. [00:27:25] Speaker B: The. [00:27:25] Speaker D: For sure. The Zionists have said multiple times, like, oh, it's. It's. We need another 911 to show this generation. Like, you know, it's so gross. But dude, memes. The meme lies like. Like, Persians are hilarious. The Banif Shay shows me, like, some of these memes and it's like the. Some of the funniest. There's like clips of, like, some skit where somebody does something bad to somebody else and. And then he hits the guy next to him and he's like, what? Why are you hitting me? And there's still not, like, Iran just striking all the people around them or whatever, which is. This is really funny. But. [00:28:05] Speaker B: But the. [00:28:06] Speaker D: The memes have been, like, amazing. I. I'm. [00:28:09] Speaker A: I'm all for is. We're in the. We're in the lowest point. We're in a deep trough of political stability and, like, progress. But we are. We are at a. We are on a massive climb. We are in meme bull market. [00:28:27] Speaker C: Yes. We are absolutely [00:28:32] Speaker D: Iranian. Like Lego propaganda videos. [00:28:36] Speaker C: Yep. I've seen all of them. [00:28:39] Speaker A: They've been like, AI propaganda videos. [00:28:41] Speaker C: Oh, they're amazing, man. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:43] Speaker C: And the ones that are officially released by Iran with those cartoons of, [00:28:50] Speaker A: like, [00:28:51] Speaker C: the US protecting, like, Epstein the kids on Epstein island and stuff. [00:28:55] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Oh, my God, [00:28:59] Speaker B: I've seen that. [00:29:01] Speaker C: Oh, good. [00:29:02] Speaker D: They're like blowing up statues of ball, like in a bunch of videos. [00:29:07] Speaker A: That's so great. [00:29:10] Speaker C: Wow. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Well, we can circle back to this. Let's talk about mining because there's a bunch of. A bunch of news going on in mining recently, and a lot of it's attached to the price dump, but also a lot. Some of it seems to be structural. Mara may be going under, which. They're like one of the. They're the biggest miner, aren't they? Haven't. Haven't they been. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Burn it down. The biggest in the world for sure. [00:29:40] Speaker A: Burn it down. [00:29:41] Speaker C: Burn it down. [00:29:43] Speaker A: Because they apparently have not even posted profits. Like, they've been. They've been burning through a bitcoin stash. And then we just. Just on the last roundtable, it was. I can't remember the other company, but they went from like, 980 bitcoin and their treasury zero. They had just burned through it in, like, A year or something just trying to keep their operations afloat. And. And right now it's looking like Mara is having. They. They apparently had to sell an enormous amount of bitcoin at an average price of $65,000. So they were clearly selling all the way down to 61 or 2, you know, whatever. Whatever it was that it dumped to for the short period. And they will probably have to dump. Keep dumping. You know, like I. I suspect there's still a lot of. A lot of clearing to be done, which is why I've been thinking since we. Since we hit, we're gonna have one more leg down before. Before we really turn it around. But Block Fills has just filed for bankruptcy and they have millions that are owed to miners that they cannot pay. They've suspended customer withdrawals and their liabilities range between 100 and $500 million in. Yeah, this is so bullish. [00:31:11] Speaker C: They're going to have to scramble to get that bitcoin somehow. You can't, can't keep dumping if you got nothing to dump. It's awesome. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it really makes me think, you know, there was. There was a ton of this conversation and like talking about like the architecture and everything, like in the markets of mining is it like, oh, it's going to scale up and everything's just going to be huge and little miners or whatever will have no space. I really kind of think that the, the tiny miners will never be profitable just because of the nature of it from a know, infrastructure standpoint. But I. The Bob Burnett uses the analogy of like the mouse or, or like the cat or something. I. Small animal mouse. The horse and the elephant is. You have like Mars and elephant, you know, but the, the sweet spot is the horse. It's the one that can move around very quickly, can adjust and never gets their setup to. Too large to. To basically be stuck. And, and what's, what's funny is that the market, the dynamics may literally be that in the long run the horse is the only thing that wins. And that would actually be phenomenal for decentralization like for. For the security of the network is if it's basically made up of 80% horses. Um, so the more these large companies can kind of get their asses handed to them for, you know, basically by market dynamics and not being able to survive drawdowns, I probably feel better for bitcoin by. For good, good reason. You know, like it could just get more and more secure and all the people who are using it for heat reuse is that increases over time. You Know those people will get more, more viable as higher end machines get resold. Like MAR is going to get rid of hardware. I might buy a new miner, you know, discounts, you know, and the supply hits and if you're using it for heat like you'll never really be priced out, you know, so I don't know it. Super bullish. [00:33:41] Speaker C: It's worth mentioning that like if a, a massive corporate miner goes out of business, it probably has to do with fiat funding it. Probably true. They probably got a bunch of Fiat VCs that printed money financing and investing printed money out of thin air to, to start that large miner and now they go bust because the company wasn't started with real money to begin with. Like a lot of these hors probably don't have a lot of fake fiat VC money. So it's like, it's kind of a beautiful thing in my mind like all this fiat funded, you know, print money out of nowhere to start a company. Companies should just go away. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's crazy too that you know, you see like the consequences of the VC environment and how people think investing happens now when, when interest rates were actually something close to reality. Like back in the 80s, you know, after you had like the huge spike in interest rates and it started to come down in some sort of measurable sense. VC shifted during 80s when we went from high, you know, 20% interest rates to, to like you know, 5 to 7, I think in the, the early 90s or something as, as things started to get like really I would say corrupted and fraudulent because I mean you just don't. That's price controls on interest rates. Right. You know, it's just. But VC literally went from the idea of funding and investing something in order to own it to getting enough investment to get a price out of it and then sell. Like, like it literally shifted from what are we, what are we investing in to own to how quickly can we turn it over. Like the entire market went to how do we sell to Google, how do we get big enough that Apple buys us or that you know, it just how do we, how do we get to that, that exit point and then we can go just do it again. And it just became this extremely high turnover, like kind of like exponential speed. It was like how do you, how do you add six zeros to this as quickly as possible so that we can offload and be out of like we're not building anything that lasts. We're not, we don't really care long term. We're just trying to Figure out how to sell it to somebody bigger than us. [00:36:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:36:17] Speaker A: And that shift literally happened over like 15 years. And then like that was VC and now that, now that's just VC. That's just how this works. Is everybody just getting in for an exit? Yep, it's, it's a mess. But the worse and worse it ends up for those guys, the better. Because that's the thing is that I don't think any of these practices work in reality. These, they all, they all only work in a fiat fake money environment. And the whole point is that bitcoin brings back reality and punches everybody in the nuts for doing stupid and being irresponsible. Which is what the whole whole, the whole thing is now. All the practices, all normal business as usual is a disaster of fraudulence and irresponsibility. And so it is all just going to get kicked in the nuts. And the faster bitcoin can just punish them all, the better. [00:37:13] Speaker C: I love this bear market, man. I love how just, I just love how things get wrecked and people get so angry and like just truth comes out and just the. Steve's the nastiest like realist stuff comes out in the bear. I honestly don't like bull markets because everybody's happy and everything seems a little bit fake and gay and like I'm just more of like a. No, let's look at. [00:37:39] Speaker A: That was the last episode. [00:37:40] Speaker C: Let's just look at the dirty real truth. Let's have hard conversations over spam, let's have contentious soft forks, let's have miners going out of business. Because that's real life, man. That's real bitcoin right there, I think. [00:37:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I definitely agree. [00:37:57] Speaker D: The problem with the bull markets is just the shitcoiners are happy. [00:38:01] Speaker C: Yeah, that's true. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And, but also like it just brings out the worst in people because everyone wishes they had more bitcoin. And so the temptation is to cut corners and do silly things. And that's when people start pumping and dumping nonsense. That, that stuff is just less prone to happen in bear markets because there isn't the naive retail enthusiast, you know, the wide eyed idiot that shows up like, oh, someone made a lot of money in bitcoin. I want to get into crypto. And they show up and there's a million people there trying to take advantage of them, trying to increase their stash. In the bear market, all those people disappear. So there's no one to grift off of. So that's just what cleans it. It's the Cleansing ritual. It's the fire that burns down the forest and creates fertile soil for the next season. But I mean before we go down that rabbit hole, going back to mining, I don't know how exactly I'm super jaded when it comes to miners because the amount of ability they have to ignore the reality you're talking about Guy, is it out. It's the adage of the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. I haven't been able to believe how long miners will ignore math and carry on doing things that don't make any sense. Especially the biggest companies as well. That's where it gets the most confusing because they have access to the cheapest credit and everything they are concerned about is more to do with compliance and box ticking and bureaucracy and all that. And you can literally come to them with data as we have been with Ocean and being like here's the numbers, there's the best FPPS pool. We paid 3.6% more than them that it worked out as 6, 6.7 bitcoins per exahash more you made on Ocean than you would have on an FPPs pool on the best FPPs pool and when you would and we had 101% luck. So it was almost that that variable there that makes all the noise between the comparisons was almost completely controlled for. So you can, you can adjust it for luck and make it 100% instead of 101 but you're still way up. So that just presenting that reality to people and being like look, we're a proven product now. There is a lot of money you guys are losing by not switching and just having it not land is so crazy to me because then you have to invoke all these ideological differences like people like that's because you have your anti spam and all that stuff. I'm like, well, Ocean is the least controlling pool in with regard to what you put in your template by design. Like the whole point is that you can come along and create horrible blocks if you want. We the whole design was to make that your decision, not ours. But I thought miners weren't supposed to be ideological. That's what the spammers have been telling me for ages. That they don't care about bitcoin's health or anything like that. They just want to make as much money as possible so they'll include the stupidest transactions possible. I'm like, well apparently they are ideological. Like you can't have it both ways. Some of them are like no, no, we need to Fill blocks with spam. So our need to do that is so great that we will not partake in a pool where other miners might refuse to include spamming blocks and we will earn less money adhering to this. So I'm like, well if you're ideologically against the anti spammers because you think we're censorship guys, then then okay, I'll accept it. But then you have to accept that miners are ideological, which the main argument has been you can never ever appeal to miners to be altruistic and not attack the chain if it's profitable for them to do it because they will only ever maximize profit. So I'm like, well it doesn't like I hate the. It was always the ideological position and there was always the I'm a dumb algorithm that will earn as much money as possible angle. [00:42:02] Speaker A: And I'm like both of them homo economicus. [00:42:06] Speaker B: But anyway, all that is to say hash rate rental brains came out with hash power a while ago and that allows people to sell their hash rate on the open market and for plebs to bid on it. And plebs are the ones. If there are a group of people that don't like spam in bitcoin, it's node running plebs and hodlers. The industry generally doesn't care about it. And the industry is quite captured by all of these spam people, like particularly the whole bitcoin magazine area that's all just completely implicated with ordinals and all this crap. So obviously they push a lot of disingenuous arguments in defense of it. But hash rate, there's very. There's like no hash rate for Bitcoin 10, right? We've only found one block, but there's a lot of money out there that is happy to mine and buy the hash from these. I agree miners are pretty not ideological to be honest. But they're all just selling compute to a couple of giant miners called Foundry and Antpool and ftpool and Viya. They don't care what the block templates look like. They don't care what the blocks look like. They don't care where the money goes. They just want to get paid. But there's a lot of people out there with no hash rate that really do care. And now that you have the combo of datum and ocean and start nine and start tunnel, all those things combined to the point where you can and brains hash power market, all of those things combine where you can just buy a bunch of hashrate off of a miner, they sell it to you. They don't care what goes on. You point what they're doing at your datum gateway and you make a bunch of BIP110 templates and you can trivially rent like a hundred PETA hash. You just need the money, that's all. But it's there for rental and then you'll find a block in a couple of weeks. So Marcellus, crazy unhosted Marcellus has been the one pushing this. He's like, this is where hash rate ultimately ends up. So for the, the wider conversation here, like, when does economic reality hit? When do miners stop mining in the red? At some point, I expect the future just to be there are hashes out there doing what they do already. They don't care about bitcoin. They care about electricity prices. They care about physical installations and setting up actual physical areas where they have all this energy consumption and all this Internet connectivity and whatever they need. But they have nothing to do with Bitcoin. They're just compute. Same as the AI guys. Don't care what question you're asking in there. That's getting relayed to their HPC facility. They're just running GPUs and crunching stuff. It doesn't matter whether you're making memes or pictures or writing essays or whatever, that's for the user. So the bitcoin user is the guy running a node, the hodler, the guy that wants a lot of hash rate, who's making his own templates but doesn't have. He isn't living in the middle of some oil field in South Dakota or something. He's like, he just gets someone else to do that. They're the hasher, but I'm the miner and I'm renting your hash and pointing at my damn gateway, running on a little thing in my house with an extra hash going through it. And I think we're going to start seeing that. I mean, we've. It's already started somewhat. There's a couple of X hash going on brains. Right. But it's just so trivial to do it. And all the tech is there now where it's like, just let these miners, just let them be hashes and everyone else. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Exa, PETA zeta. [00:45:32] Speaker B: Yeah, no, sorry. PETA exa zeta. So a PET error is not much. PETA hash is, you know, a thousand terahash. Yeah, exactly. [00:45:41] Speaker D: Is that right? [00:45:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:42] Speaker B: And then you have an exahash, which is one exahash is 1% of the network right now. A zeta hash is the entire network sorry, 0.1% of the network. [00:45:51] Speaker A: 1%. Yeah, yeah. [00:45:52] Speaker B: A zeta hash is the entire network right now. It's pretty much dead on one Z. [00:45:56] Speaker A: I think it was somebody. I thought it was. Was it in the news last month or was this just randomly in one of our conversations or something? But somebody had, for like $75, rented a PETA hash of. Of hash rate, maybe from. Maybe from the brains thing, I'm. I'm not even sure. But then found their own block right now. So for like 75 bucks they mined for like a couple of days and found a block. [00:46:27] Speaker B: Yeah, it happens. But I mean, there's so many people doing that that it adds up. [00:46:30] Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah, sure. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Not unlikely. [00:46:32] Speaker A: Sure. I mean, it's just like, it's like a, you know, all the solo miners and stuff. Like eventually somebody's gonna find something. It's great. That's a heck of a lottery ticket, man. [00:46:45] Speaker B: But I mean, the fact that Ocean exists changes it a lot because you don't need to take the risk. [00:46:52] Speaker A: You can point it at anything that you want. [00:46:53] Speaker B: If you wanted to rent an X hash right now, you can do it and it's going to cost you a lot of money, but chances are you'll earn most of it back because you are actually just mining. But you get to decide what goes in the blockchain without having to become an actual physical miner. [00:47:09] Speaker D: Right. [00:47:10] Speaker B: So I mean, and to be honest, this isn't a big leap. It doesn't change anything that the hashes are doing. They move from FPPs to selling hash rate on the open market instead of to their pool. And there's a lot of enthusiastic ideological Bitcoin 10 people out there that will just pay more for your hash than an FPPs pool will. Like, I will gladly pay 2 or 3% more than those pools will just so I can have your hash. And it's a legitimate thing as well. I didn't have to do it. You did. You went out and bought the ant miners. You plugged them in, you made them work. Now send all that to me, please, and I'll. I'll give you more than your FPPs pool. For me, that is the most rational market ever. And I see it kicking off majorly in the next few months for. For BIP110 supporters to get behind. [00:47:57] Speaker C: I could turn into just an arms race with kind of shitcoiners. Yeah. With the spammers. Right. Doing the same thing. [00:48:05] Speaker B: I don't think so. It could, it could, but I don't think so. I don't think they have that. That kind of gumption, to be honest. I think they're all talk and I don't think. I just don't think spammers have the kind of resourcefulness and commitment that, like Hodlers with, you know, someone with a lot of Bitcoin they bought many years ago that they can use to mine. I mean, there's other reasons you might want to mine with your bitcoins, right, and cycle them, you know, without going into any detail there. But I mean, like, they got the money. They had the discipline to hold onto it. Shitcoiners don't. They are. Shitcoins are all about other people's money, not your own. And trying to separate them as quickly as possible. Right? [00:48:54] Speaker A: Man, I really wish Stratum V2 would start. Like, I guess Brains, I think, is the only one that's implemented it right. [00:49:03] Speaker B: It's dead. It's a complete waste of time. I don't. Datum does everything stratum v2 needed to do anyway. The one exception here is that if you're renting hash and pointing it at your datum gateway, that's all Stratum V1 traffic, which sucks. But there's no way around that unless you're literally renting hash from someone using Brain. [00:49:23] Speaker A: I thought brains had Stratum V2. They just don't have it implemented. So you can build your own block templates yet, or at all. [00:49:33] Speaker D: I don't. [00:49:33] Speaker B: I don't know if it's. It's quite confusing because stratum v2 is two things, but brains has. Brains has just a regular pool. There's nothing in there that supports template creation on the minor side or job declaration or any of that stuff that Stratton V2 has bolted on. It just supports the encrypted comms, which, to be honest, would be great for this. Because if I'm renting an exahash and I'm pointing at my damn gateway in my house, I would rather that not all be plain text. Cause that would suck. And it's also if. If Brains were to scam or something like that, or the miner didn't fulfill the order properly or something like that. They have plausible deniability because everything got transferred in plain text. So it could have been my ISP or some other man in the middle. Stratum v2 would fix all that. Obviously, once it hits your datum gateway and it goes between there and Ocean, that's all encrypted properly, because Datum's a modern protocol written Properly, it's not like Stratum v1, but DAM can support Stratton v2, but it's just not worth it because 99% of the hash rate you rent won't support Stratum v2. Braiins OS does, but nothing else does. So Braiins is not only selling the hash rate of people that are using their own operating system, they're selling anyone's hash rate. Right. So. [00:50:58] Speaker A: Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. [00:51:01] Speaker B: And it would make the whole product more complicated as well if they had to figure out when selling and buying and matching the two things. Oh, maybe it could work. [00:51:10] Speaker D: I don't know. [00:51:12] Speaker A: Any. Any other mining updates? Oh, oh wait, no, there was. There was another one. This one was really cool. Well, first difficulty has dropped again. Or I think it's about to. I can't remember. I haven't kept up with the difficulty adjustment. But we're about to get another dump in difficulty, which is cool. But the two block reorg from Foundry Juicy forgot about that juiciness. [00:51:43] Speaker D: It. [00:51:44] Speaker A: I think somebody, somebody did an interesting write up. [00:51:49] Speaker B: OXB10C did and Jason did it right up because Jason has. Jason's the backend for Ocean, right. So he has access to data that no one else in the network does because we get fed block templates by datum miners. So that's literally a thousand bitcoin nodes telling us it was probably building on top of this template, not that template. So. [00:52:11] Speaker A: Yeah, but what he was saying was that it was. Well, actually you might know better than I do. You want to break it down, Mechanic? [00:52:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's. It's a weird scenario, but this not. It's not necessarily. It's exactly what this attack would look like, but it's not necessarily done intentionally. Thus the problem is it kind of. It could have been done by accident. But the theory, the theory is that if a miner is big enough, they can not broadcast their blocks to the network and hopefully find another one when they build one. And then when a rival miner finds a block, you dump two blocks onto. Onto the network after that and erase their block. This is the theory. And the longer you do that, the [00:52:58] Speaker A: more that's just a simple selfish mining attack. [00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't really. If you can explain to me the point of doing that. I don't really see what the point of doing it is other than just creating chaos. [00:53:11] Speaker A: Well, I think it's. I think it's that if you have two blocks going at the same time. And I think it's about the fact that if you want to keep building on top of yours, if yours isn't going to make it, if it isn't going to be the next one, you have the chance to do it in secret so that when, when you basically drop it, you're, you're building on yours, even though the rest of the network wouldn't be. So you can basically restore a block that you lost the race for. So, so it's a, it's a, it's like, okay, we lost this last one. How do we get it back? Well, let's just keep building on top of it and see if we can outpace the rest of the network quickly. [00:53:54] Speaker B: That's correct. Yeah. [00:53:55] Speaker A: So it's, so it's like, how, how do we, how do we take it? It's a, it's a, it's a risk because, you know, you're, you're betting against you, you're betting that you'll be essentially the rest of the network. But, you know, if you're the largest of all of the separate pools, you know, if you have 30 or 40%, that might actually be in the cards. That's why the, the quote unquote theoretical is that like, if you have a third of the hash rate, it might actually make sense to do this in certain scenarios. But the idea is to get back a block that you lost. [00:54:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:28] Speaker C: But the, the, the big worry here is that Foundry has a lot more hash than they are letting us know about. And they're, they're intentionally keeping their hash kind of like 35, 40% because they'll, they know that we'll freak out if they show us how much hash they actually, if they have 55 and like, then they can do something like this whenever they want, you know, because they actually have much more than 40% or something. [00:54:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And this is exactly what a 51% tackle would look like. If that's actually what's happening, is that you wouldn't necessarily see it, it would just happen. [00:55:08] Speaker D: So what would be the, I mean, if they, if they actually had a lot more hash than they were letting on, then it would just be sitting idle most of the time? [00:55:17] Speaker B: Well, no, it would be rerouted to other pools. [00:55:20] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just put under different names and then. [00:55:23] Speaker D: Oh, right. Yeah, I guess you could. [00:55:25] Speaker A: And then when they need it, it's back under their name. [00:55:26] Speaker B: Right, right, right. [00:55:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:55:28] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure all pools do that, to be honest. Like, and it's responsible for various unknown blocks that you see. Well, not all pools, the big ones, like Antpool famously does it by proxying with the other pools. That is, that's a little bit of a different mechanism, I guess, but no pool wants to appear huge because it freaks out the network. [00:55:52] Speaker C: To get, to get back to the specific instance here with the two block thing though, Jason's report really kind of triggered my mind because it's. If you guys really do have a thousand nodes data, and you did not get not a single one of those nodes got a competing chain tip for this event, then I, I just find it hard to believe that that first block was actually announced. [00:56:24] Speaker B: I don't, I've seen it happen before. Network does, okay, where they are mining on top of their own block, but for whatever reason, that block didn't get broadcast to the network. I've seen it happen. That's just networks being weird. So, yeah, like we had a weird one. One Ocean block was really weird. There was a network blip that meant the, the block, they didn't tell Ocean about the block, but they told the network about the block. So our whole payout system freaked out because it's like, wait, there's a block on the network paying a bunch of our miners that we were never told about? [00:57:02] Speaker A: I don't know. Your blood. Stupid. [00:57:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it was, it was, you know, they, they, they, they blast the block to the network as they should, but they also upload it via the datum protocol up to, up to Ocean as well, so Tides can process it and make sure everyone got paid the right amount and all that. And that's a very, very intentionally fragile system because it wants to be like, if someone sneezes around it, it needs to shut itself down. And like, it's a very, it's a very, very carefully tuned, sensitive system. So when things like that happen to it, it, it shuts itself down and goes, nobody move. Like, so the, the whole thing was kind of weird. But I, I do know mine is a network transients and stuff like that. And also the, the one mistake everyone's making in the analysis is that they're discounting the modularity of a giant miner like Foundry. Foundry aren't sitting there with like one bitcoin node and a bunch of strands that was on top of it. It's broken up all over the place and half the time they aren't even in sync with themselves. And that's like doubly true for miners [00:58:07] Speaker A: propagating within their own network to then broadcast out may have failed. [00:58:11] Speaker B: So this is why occasionally they'll be, Occasionally there'll be a race Condition scenario where like Foundry will be mining on top of an ant pool block when they found one earlier than the ant pool block, just because that section of their whole business was a different node running a different kind of thing. So these things happen. But I'm guessing that I just. Those blocks just weren't broadcast. The fact that there was two of them tells me their network was just balked. I think that was probably what happened. I don't think they would intentionally try and steal coins, you know the way, or just create disruption for antpool and via. And people are also going off the timestamps in the blocks, which is stupid because those are way out. [00:58:53] Speaker A: Those aren't reliable. [00:58:53] Speaker B: Like you, you don't generate work every second for an ant miner. You, you get a block template from a node, then you generate a template, then you generate work that you send via Stratton to all the ant miners. And you don't update that for like 30, 40 seconds because it's inefficient. You can't just keep blasting fresh work at antminers because it's not an efficient way to do stuff. [00:59:15] Speaker A: You do the nonce. That's what it's for. [00:59:18] Speaker B: You give them fresh work when there's a new network block and you want to update fairly often because the transaction fees get higher and higher and higher as it's been longer and longer since the last block. But you're not doing it like every three seconds or something. So you give them work with this timestamp and it goes to the miner. And I don't think that timestamp is updateable on the miner side. So it's part of the template, I believe. So the timestamp can say it was found at, you know, 6, 6, 25 and 33 seconds. That work could have been created 20 seconds before that. And so the times, even if, like the miner is rigorously, you know, making sure all the clocks are in sync and all that, the, the timestamp in the block doesn't tell you when the work was created. [01:00:00] Speaker C: Makes sense. [01:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. There's. There's so many factors and I also feel like, like, what would be, what would be the benefit of like, like dealing with the speculation or whatever and then like purposefully, like, what, what do they have to edit and change to like, be able to purposely commit this attack, you know, or, or to commit the attack to, to basically do selfish mining like this? I, I find it far more likely that it is just a mistake, that it did something just Hiccuped. [01:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, but that should just serve as a good enough warning for people to be like, Foundry is too big. Like, no. No other pool could accidentally wipe out two blocks. Like, they. It would be, you know, one. One in. That's like winning the lottery or something. It'd be extremely rare. But like Foundry can do it because they. Someone tripped over an ethernet cable in one of the facilities. Like, that's not. They shouldn't be in that position. [01:01:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:01] Speaker C: I love the white blood cell. Like instant immune response of the bitcoin system to the tiniest thing. Looking weird. [01:01:11] Speaker A: And mining two block reorg. [01:01:13] Speaker C: Dude, it is so. [01:01:13] Speaker A: 80 tweets later. [01:01:15] Speaker C: It's so comforting. It's like alarm bells ring everywhere for the tiniest thing. That was great. [01:01:23] Speaker A: New. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Proud of the bitcoins. [01:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah, dude, this one was really cool. So there was a research paper from Cambridge that bitcoin remains resilient despite potential failures in global undersea cables. So basically pulling. Pulling through 11 years of peer to peer traffic data and 68 of verified historical cable fault events worldwide and watching or analyzing how blocks propagate and how the Tor network is able to get around a lot of these gaps in the network said that bitcoin can withstand. Can stay in consensus and have full uptime globally withstand the simultaneous loss of up to 92% of torture all undersea data cables. [01:02:19] Speaker C: TikTok, baby. Tick tock, tick tock. [01:02:23] Speaker D: I thought that was. [01:02:24] Speaker A: I thought that was dope. That was a really, really fascinating thing. I haven't actually read the research paper. I've just kind of pulled it up and skimmed some stuff. But it's just really, really, really cool. And also just shows the. Again, the point, like, like the point of all this. And why, like con. Like where consensus and security lies, like, like where that layer lies and the dynamics of that. Because this is exactly why you have small blocks. This is why you don't just like scale block size indefinitely. Because if you've got 50 megabyte blocks and you're trying to move a gig, you know, a day that that number's gonna be very different. You know, like that number might be 30% or 20%. And I'm thinking like 92%. Could you get it up to 95? You know, like, like, how do we. How do we make it even more resilient? And it was, it was also really interesting because Jeff, you were actually here for this and like when we were testing the first version of Pair Drop, just kind of like messing around with it. So we're talking to two guys who are in Iran who are contributing and like working with a bunch of the stuff that we're doing. And they talk that. What's really interesting is that they have like a hugely unique situation because their Internet keeps getting cut off and their government regime is cutting it off, foreign powers are cutting it off. And even on its own, they have basically installed software. But one of them, I think he referred to it as the black wall, which is Chinese software for their great firewall of China basically. And they call it the black wall or whatever. But what it was doing is so essentially like pair drop runs the peer to peer stuff and the pair stack runs on direct like websocket connections. And they essentially, it seems like they have like some sort of a white list of just like you're allowed to connect to these big servers and these big entities, but if you're just making like a random web socket connection to another ip, it stops working. They, they basically are constantly scanning and they shut it down every like 20 seconds or 30 seconds. So you cannot maintain a connection for any more, any more time than that. And so we were so I was draw. I dropped a movie and with a pair drop link and I was just like, all right, let's just try, let's just test this and see what happens. And we're watching like the pair core thing, like where you can like see who you're connected to. You just see pub keys pop up, you know. And so I sent one to Jeff, I sent one to each of the two guys in Iran and everybody was downloading. It's like, okay, I'm connected to, you know, five, six, seven, three, who's. Who is this? Who is. And we're like going back and forth trying to figure out. And he's like, oh, well, he got kicked off, we got kicked off again. And we just basically were all jabbering in a four way chat about who's connected to who. And connections were just popping up and dying and popping up and dying while it was downloading. But in like two minutes everybody had the movie because it would just re establish a new connection, even after just you know, 15 seconds or 20 seconds getting kicked off. But what was funny is that one part of the file would get to one of the guys in Iran and then another part of the file would get to the other guy in Iran and then part of it would get to Jeff and then they would be able to connect a new connection to Jeff and get that part of the file. And so like just between ends, as soon as you make the link, it's this, you know, tiny little torrent network essentially. And literally in two minutes, everybody had the file even across the Iran's black wall. And I thought that was. That was fascinating. I couldn't stop thinking about, like, bitcoin and stuff after that is just this idea of like, how do you like, explicitly network adversaries in an adversarial network situation is that you can keep something working. You know, you can still have the communication. But it was really, really, really cool. It was fun. We're getting there, slowly but surely. [01:06:56] Speaker D: I'm excited, dude. [01:06:59] Speaker A: Me too. [01:07:00] Speaker C: I've got a. I've got a topic. If we're looking for another topic, I [01:07:05] Speaker A: got a bunch of news, but we're always looking for topics. [01:07:08] Speaker C: I would just like to vote for Corey Clipson as the most improved bitcoiner of the past year. I think Corey is just awesome now. I used to. He used to sketch me out. Now I think he's great. And can somebody explain the lawsuit with Tether? [01:07:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I can. I'll read the post. Okay, let me. Oh, crap, I lost it. I had it saved right here. Which chat were we in? You. You shared the link with me too. We just had this. Oh, signal, Signal. That's right. [01:07:44] Speaker C: Y' all know what I mean with Corey, though. Remember he used to be kind of douchey. Now he's awesome. [01:07:49] Speaker D: I mean. I mean, [01:07:52] Speaker B: I never got the swan hate. Really. I don't get why they were so. [01:07:55] Speaker A: I always thought I loved Corey's douchiness. [01:07:59] Speaker C: I mean, I didn't know him. I just hear him on podcast and he just sounded like a. A bull market, you know, fiat kind of guy for a while. [01:08:08] Speaker D: But he was great during the. [01:08:10] Speaker B: The whole. [01:08:13] Speaker D: The shitcoin explosion with what, What? Luna? [01:08:17] Speaker A: And, and oh yeah, he was calling out Celsius. [01:08:20] Speaker D: Celsius. Yeah, yeah. [01:08:21] Speaker A: And yeah, all that stuff. Way early way when everybody was so certain that it was the best idea ever. Yeah, he was railing against them to the point that. Remember he had that interview with the guy who headed Celsius, I believe, Basically just calling us him a scammer to his face. The guy got so mad and they like went at each other for like a while. And I think I want to say the guy even like, just kick, like just dropped out of the conversation. I could be wrong about that. I mostly only saw clips and conversation pieces about it. Um, but he was not happy. But then, you know, it took like four months for him to be fully vindicated and entirely right about all of it. [01:09:04] Speaker C: Yeah, you're right. [01:09:04] Speaker A: But I'll read the I'll read the post here says so Lutnick on the hot seat yet again this week Swan Bitcoin filed an ex parte. Is it exparte or xart? Never spoken that out loud. I just realized Application in the Southern District of New York seeking court authorization to subpoena Cantor Fitzgerald and his former CEO, U.S. comm. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick under 28 U.S. blah blah. The discovery would support foreign proceedings against the Tether appointed directors of Swan's joint mining venture, 2040 Energy, Tether chairman and controlling shareholder Giancarlo Devasini and Bitfinex CEO J.L. vanderbilt, according to the filing. Mid 2024, a group of Swann's own employees led by then CIO Rafael Zagori and working with Tether's now CIO Zachary Lyons, secretly conspired with Tether to gut the joint venture. The filing states that Zagari's planning notes found on Swan's corporate servers laid out a coordinated mass resignation to be executed with quote, legal cover from Tether referencing Giancarlo side conversations and declaring that, quote, rain and Hellfire needs to start. Zagari and Lyons are now both Tether appointed directors at public company 21 capital met, majority owned and controlled by Tether and fronted by Jack Mallers. The filing states that on August 8, 2024, 13 Swan employees resigned within hours and thousands of confidential documents were downloaded from Swann's systems. According to Swann, Tether replaced Swann within days with Proton, a new entity run by the same defecting employees and contract. In December 2024, the Tether appointed directors approved a related party sale of 2040 energy mining assets to a Tether subsidiary at what Swan alleges was a significant undervalue. The application targets Cantor and Lutnik because of their proximity to these events, according to the filing. In the weeks before the mass resignations, Devasini introduced Swan CEO Corey Clipston to Lutnick to discuss a planned Swan ipo. Swann subsequently shared confidential mining data and IPO materials with Cantor, the filing notes. Then after that, after that mass resignation and asset diversion, Cantor broke off contact with Swann without explanation. Cantor subsequently served as an investment banker on the series of Tether related transactions, according to the filing, including acting as placement agent for Tether's investment in Rumble and providing a SPAC for 21 Capital. Separately, the filing cites an independent Edison Group report noting that tether sold Northern Data's mining subsidiary to devising directly directed entities at a 50% discount compared to Precedent transactions as part of the precedent to sell Northern data to Rumble. The filing also services Clipson's many contemporaneous notes and conversations with Debosini. According to those notes, Debasini told Clips Clipstone that Lutnick, then a private citizen, had claimed to have, quote, managed to kill every bill about stablecoins in Congress and was quote, working full time for Tether. End quote. Public UCC filing for October 25th shows Tether's collateral agent for all assets of Dynamic Trust, Latin Family Trust that is the majority owner of Cantor. Bloomberg recently reported Dynasty Trust a borrowed a undisclosed sum from Tether to finance his acquisition of Lutnick's ownership stake. So Ludnick appears appears to be working behind the scenes with Tether. According to this, working behind the scenes with Tether started conversations with Swan while people within Swan were building their entire mining division and they have set up an enormous amount. Like they set up an entire project with tons of proprietary data and then all at the same time. Then while they were speaking with Cantor, all at the exact same time, Cantor and subsequently Lutnick, who is apparently still working behind the scenes or at least claims to be and has quotes claiming that he is the one basically behind these decisions. It looks like pulled ship about Swan IPO and taking the confidential mining data. Everybody in the mining division resigned within hours after uncovering conversations of all them planning to do this. They all took all of this data, all of this information, everything that they built the entire mining project and set up a new company randomly and now is working directly with Tether. They basically hijacked the entire operation. They let Swan pay for it and set it up. They ripped it out from underneath them and then sold it to themselves at a 50% discount and everybody went with him, Cantor and Lutnick, the entire group of minor, the entire group in part of the project and now they're still moving forward with it and they've basically just, they, they just rug pulled Swan of everything. The financing side, the Swan ipo, the entire mining division, all of the employees and people who built this and everything that they built all the data and all the IPO materials. Like that's pretty nuts. That's pretty nuts. If this is what happened. Dirty, dirty. [01:14:39] Speaker C: I could never live that kind of life where I was playing those games. [01:14:45] Speaker A: Seriously though, like how do you like, [01:14:48] Speaker D: like my first thought is, is that like this is the problem with being a giant company in Fiat world is is that Tether probably wouldn't have survived even. Even being completely honest, like, about their business and running everything conservatively. They probably wouldn't have survived all of the scrutiny they were getting if they hadn't agreed to like, get in bed with somebody like fucking Lnick or somebody like. Like, like. And so. So if you're a big enough target, they will come after you for something unless you play their game. And so it. It's like, I mean, you know what in. In Atlas Struggle, you're talking about you. You know, things in Washington require, you know, expenses for things in Washington, you know, like, like, they have to have. You have to have your Washington guy, you know. Right. And so. Yeah, so there's just. There's no way to win unless you stay small and kind of outside of the system. And you know, like, it's. It's either you get big enough that you're trapped and you have to play their game and then they can pin whatever they want on you and, you know, in whatever scenario they create for you, you know, like. And so I. I just. I don't know. I feel like the whole thing is just. [01:16:12] Speaker A: It's just gross as wild. [01:16:16] Speaker B: But I don't. I don't know what really to. [01:16:19] Speaker D: To. [01:16:19] Speaker B: To comment on it. And also maybe there's not really much for me to say, like, because some of the mining that was going on when Ocean. Sorry. When Tether and Swan was still working together was a lot of it was on Ocean. And you know, we knew all the people involved on both sides. And I really don't know what to make of it because I like Corey and I like Hafa. Rafa is, you know, Rafa Ziguri, the guy that's referenced there a bunch of times. As far as I know, those guys are both great people. So I have no idea what to think really. I have no idea how the whole. The whole thing, how it could have gone so south. [01:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Was this like, they hated working with them and so they're like, we're getting hell out of here. You know, I mean, like, well, how was. I'd be very curious to. To dig in more because it does seem like a. I mean, it's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. Even if there is some sort of a personal justification of just like, we don't want to do business with you anymore because we don't like this setup or everybody was unhappy or something for some reason or. But there's certainly a side of like, did we just get rug pulled? You know, was this like a plan to let us pay for the setup of all this stuff and then have it literally just ripped, ripped out of our hands to, you know, to go off and, and, and take it and, you know, get us, get us to fund your venture without us actually being in it at all. So I don't know. I don't know. It's a, it's a mess though. That sounds, that's a, that's a crazy thing to have happen and I would love to hear somebody's justification for it. [01:18:11] Speaker D: I, I really would not underestimate the power, like at this point. I genuinely, genuinely would not underestimate the possibility that the psychopaths that you're getting in bed with in Washington just do this to people. It could be that like they were screwing both sides somehow. Like, you know, like, I really, I'm, I just, I don't know, man. Like, it's like listening and watching to all this stuff around the Charlie Kirk thing and around, like, I literally had a dream last night about like, if there was like a, a, a race of slave master type like people, and it was like, like this child slave master saying, you know, like, like some sort of teenage slave master kind of creature saying, like, if you, if you like a, a good man, like a bad man will go out of his way to avoid seeing reality because he's, he's running. Like, you could show him reality, you can show him the truth. He doesn't want to see it. But a good man, if he gets like a hint of the idea that the story he's been telling himself is wrong, he might change his behavior and you'll never be able to get him back. And then there's like this older character saying, nah, it's, it's a game of time. [01:19:44] Speaker B: Anybody. [01:19:45] Speaker D: Like, that's a, that's a short term view of things. You can get anybody back by just with the right amount of time and the right amount of, and the right story. And I truly think that like we, if you look at the, the narrative inside of narratives that they build, I truly think that there's just like these truly psychopathic people that are building narratives and counter narratives so that like one side, they can play one side against the other and, and they just want to sow division and control everything. And if, if it increased, if, if decreasing the influence of one company, like, okay, so how much control over Swan Bitcoin did Lutnick have? If Lutnick already has tether in his pocket somehow, then then why wouldn't you want to erase the company? That might be like a wild card in the, in the, you know, in the. Yeah, the thing that you're playing like it just, there's, there's no telling, man. [01:20:54] Speaker A: You know, there was. That's something I was posting about recently actually, and I can't even remember what it was that sparked this. I was having a conversation with somebody. But that people have a tendency to forget to, to stress test their ideas or their narratives. And they will, especially when they don't trust someone. When like. So like conspiracy theories is like a really good example. A lot of conspiracy theories are good examples is because like we know from a ton of leaks and you know, kind of like WikiLeaks being like a great example of like how the CIA operates and how intelligence agencies think about controlling narratives and populations is that one of the things that they will do is that they will go into, they will make a heavy presence in the, the antagonistic community and then push the wrong narrative. So like a good example is that like, oh, everybody distrusts, like they think 911 was an inside job and it was all like BS and like somebody was up to some real nasty. And then they will go into the truther community or whatever and they'll push. It was thermite. It was thermite. It was thermite. And they'll like build this thing about like, oh, it was definitely this. And then people forget the. Because they're so quick to be like, well, it's definitely not the official narrative. They will latch on to the first alternative narrative narrative that they hear and then they will get so viciously defensive about trying to make that narrative fit. Because definitely the official story is a lie. But they use their, their certainty that they've been lied to and they, they use that as their certainty about this alternative, which is just one possible explanation. And I see that happen so, so much that because I know I've been lied to. This was definitely how it is with flat Earthers, I think is a pretty decent example too of like, hey, there's, there's just this, it must be this because I know something is untrue somewhere else. [01:23:13] Speaker D: Flat earth. [01:23:14] Speaker B: That's a fun one because I went down that rabbit hole for a while. I really wanted to believe that there was something like that going on. And like anything else, the minute you go down that rabbit hole, there's loads of truth in it. There's loads of nonsense out there. [01:23:27] Speaker A: So much truth in so many things. [01:23:29] Speaker B: But yeah, but at the same time it's also people always focus on one end of the corruption. They're like well, flat Earthers are grifters. They want to sell you like silly devices that don't do what they say they do and all that. I'm like, true, but they're only con. They can only be convincing if they manage to find genuine holes in mainstream physics. And some of them managed to. Steve is going to have a heart attack in a minute. I felt like an actual physics. Right. [01:23:54] Speaker C: No, about what? [01:23:55] Speaker A: Flat Earther. What are you talking about? Not. [01:23:59] Speaker C: Sorry, I got distracted. [01:24:01] Speaker B: No, I had fun in it because I. We live on an island, right? [01:24:03] Speaker A: This guy's watching YouTube. He's not even round tling. [01:24:08] Speaker B: There's like a, a 20 mile gap between us and stuff on the mainland. So we got a mega hyper focus camera that could film like buildings 20 miles away. And we couldn't see like the bottom of them and stuff. [01:24:20] Speaker D: They were. [01:24:21] Speaker B: Or we could see too much of them was the point. We're like, wait, I could see the whole building. The, the curve of the Earth meant to like, mean that like 20 meters of a building is cut off or something, which is a lot. That doesn't sound like a lot. But anyway, I mean, eventually I was like, maybe it's true. Maybe the earth is actually flat for a while. I was like, maybe it is because we have a camera now that can show us stuff that should be hidden behind the curve of the Earth. But unfortunately, just the way light moves across like miles and miles of air of various temperatures makes it pretty unreliable. Like when you look above you, there's not much air between you and like where the air becomes really thin. But when you look 20 miles in front of you, the air, there's so much air messing with the light that it becomes quite an unreliable test, unfortunately. So I thought my incredulity was just not overcome. I was like, no. As cynical as I am, I don't think that lie is actually maintainable. That they could tell the. The planet. The planet that the, that the world's a globe when it's really flat. Because it's a hard claim to take seriously. [01:25:31] Speaker A: And one of the other big things is they say that like light doesn't bend. Like they'll try to make that claim. And as somebody who has spent a lot of time with lenses and, and light and filming and had. Has geeked out on that topic for a very long time. There's a very, very simple way to test this. Do you know what a mirage is? [01:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:56] Speaker A: Do you know how it is produced? Like light bins. Light bends through medium. It just does. And that's provable with a glass. [01:26:07] Speaker B: You put a pencil in a glass of water, right? Like, it looks like two different. [01:26:12] Speaker A: Because you have a sharp cut in that medium. You have a high density, extremely low to extremely high density. You. You literally get. This is your pencil. It looks like this. And then there's. And somebody posted, somebody posted one just the other day actually of someone being like, the proof is that, you know, from a battleship or whatever, they say they, they have the capability of shooting a Cruise missile that's 50ft over the water from a hundred miles away. And it should be. It's funny, in the video he says that it should be over a mile underneath the horizon. That's not true. The. It should be 0.15. Or excuse me, at 69ft, it's like a little bit over the, the first gap. So it's like.02. And so it is like 600ft or something like that. Or should be 600ft. And the, the light curvature does not actually account for that claim is that they should be able to shoot something maybe at like 300ft up, but the curvature would not be that much. And they're like all like, I was reading this thread and they're like all going back and forth and he's like, it's like, no, well, they. We know that they can do this. And, and, and it's. It's got to be a lie. It's got to be straight line of sight. Lasers don't. Lasers don't bend and they're arguing about the bending and they're just like. Did nobody stop to think maybe the Navy pumped their numbers a little bit? Like maybe they said they could do it at a Cruise missile that's 50ft up, 100 miles away, and it's actually like 50 miles away at 200ft up. Maybe, maybe they said their dick was like six and a half or seven inches and it was actually 6.1. You know, like, like they, maybe they were just bullshitting. Like, because the whole argument was about what the Navy said that they were. What the military said it could do. It's like. And that's proof, this proof of flat earth. Now, now there's plenty of fun conversations and little rabbit holes to go down in all those conspiracy theories. But I just thought the amount of energy that they put into not just thinking maybe. Maybe the military was flexing nuts and, and the dick wasn't quite as big as they said was not in the conversation at all. [01:28:33] Speaker B: I think we just found a bit. 110 block boys. [01:28:37] Speaker C: No way. [01:28:38] Speaker A: Oh, Bob, dude. The block. [01:28:40] Speaker C: Was it Bob again? [01:28:42] Speaker B: Yep. Version bits end with a 10. [01:28:45] Speaker A: The epic blockness that happens on this show. [01:28:47] Speaker B: It does. [01:28:48] Speaker A: How often do we not just have, like, crazy block things happening on this show? Something special about the. Something special about the hash. The hash universe. [01:29:01] Speaker C: You know, Bob. Bob is really the hash ether person. Like, you know, every once in a while, we get these, like, adults that come into bitcoin, you know what I mean? And it's like a breath of fresh air. And because we're all adults, but we're all just kind of hard. We're talking about dick links and stuff. But every few years you get somebody like Bob that just. Oh, God. It's so reassuring, so refreshing. [01:29:29] Speaker B: It's really funny watching him. He's a really, really deeply committed bitcoiner, and he has to deal with a bunch of ridiculous kids. [01:29:39] Speaker A: I really like Bob. [01:29:41] Speaker B: Yeah, he's done well. I always maintain that if you do. If you all are in bitcoin for the right reasons, you make a ton of money. And if you're in it for the wrong reasons, you just chase, run around, run around and get. Make nothing at all. So in that case, like, Bob was the first guy to commit to mining on Ocean. He was one of the first to ever use datum. I was trying to get that set up as quickly as possible, I think. I think he was like, number two or something. He wanted to be the first guy to find a datum block. He missed that one, unfortunately. But he was the first guy to mine a BIP110 block as well, making him also the first guy to mine a block the way he wanted, with signaling for a fork the way he wanted within a pooled context. There was, like, a similar thing to that with slush before, where they allowed miners to have two different options whether they wanted to signal or not. But this was made by. The decision was made completely by him to put the version bits the way he wanted there. So, yeah, Bob gets a lot of. The first guy ever to do something belongs to him. Yeah. [01:30:48] Speaker C: He was also the first guy to get John Attack to, you know, kind of come out in a long form, interview style about the inner workings and politics and core. Which is. Which is. [01:31:02] Speaker A: Yeah. What was. What was that episode you linked to? Was that knut? And that was the second one? [01:31:08] Speaker C: Yeah, that was the second one. But Bob did it first where it was like, okay, what's his show? [01:31:14] Speaker A: What's Bob's show? [01:31:15] Speaker B: Bob's show's called Old Man Yells. Old man yells and yeah, he doesn't do a lot of episodes, but when he does, they're really high signal. [01:31:26] Speaker C: So yeah, they're really good. [01:31:28] Speaker A: I mean, let me get both of those episodes. [01:31:31] Speaker B: John has never done a podcast or anything like that before, but I think he's just been so excommunicated by core now that he doesn't really have any reason to try and play nice or like, you know, because every single one of them is like, when they're in that point of should I make a drama tweet about something bad that. Something scandalous that happened? Well, I am coming up for grant renewal in three months. Like, they always have that motivation there to be like, let's not be a squeaky wheel here. Let's not create problems. And I think he's just been so elbowed out, like no one will look at any pull requests he makes or like review anything he does or anything because everything just dies in silence. [01:32:08] Speaker C: Right? [01:32:09] Speaker B: They're not like, they don't decline stuff or reject it though. I mean, Dathan Ohm did make a pull request for BIP1.0, the implementation of it, not the BIP in Tacor yesterday. And they closed it for being the bot. Closed it for being spam. And then they said we're going to leave it closed because the Twitter's going to brigade this and all that. But I mean, it's a real bip. It's in the BIP repo. Here's an implementation of it. It's clearly not written by AI. It's definitely not spam. It definitely warranted discussion on the bitcoin core repo. In my opinion. It shouldn't have been like just unceremoniously tossed out. It's a very high quality piece of code and it implements a BIP in the BIP repository. So it's not out of nowhere. It hasn't violated the process of all that crap, you know, where you have to discuss it on the mailing list or delving bitcoin before it's allowed to be a pull request on the bitcoin repo. But yeah, that was kind of annoying. [01:33:08] Speaker A: I'll send the. I'll get the link for Knut and Luke. Yeah, those are both on Nika. [01:33:15] Speaker C: One thing about John Attack. [01:33:16] Speaker A: And then also Old man yells yeah, that. [01:33:20] Speaker C: I. I don't know how long you. It's been since you guys worked in like the corporate or government or like FIAT World, but a lot of the stuff he said is going to hit home with a lot of these people that work in this Space. Like me specifically. I got passed over for a leadership program at NASA because of my race. They needed to have like, ethnic people in there. And then I got passed over for funding at my PhD program because of my race. And these are in writing from, from governments, like just in the corporate world for the last like 20 years. If you're a white male, chances that you have it in writing that you are not eligible for a certain advantage because of your race. That, like, is high. And it is, it is so infuriating. [01:34:13] Speaker A: That's so wild, man. [01:34:15] Speaker C: I mean, it was kind of cool because it forced me to be like a weekend bartender during grad school, which was awesome, but. And then he bought a bar and then I bought a bar. So. I mean, life works in funny ways. But yeah, I mean, this was clearly happening in core, you know, I mean, he was. They were explicitly, you know, promoting people because of their identity over people who have like, clearly better records and, you know, and that is so infuriating to so many people and they can't even discuss it, but they're secretly angry for their whole life because of it. I think there's a lot of these people. Just my opinion. [01:35:01] Speaker A: I, I believe it. I am looking for this episode. I'm gonna have to find it later. I thought I'd get it really, really quick, but. [01:35:10] Speaker C: When's the last time you guys had a corporate job? Like never, like decades, dude. You guys are so out of touch. You're so out of touch, man. I'm the only one in touch. [01:35:20] Speaker B: Does ocean count? [01:35:21] Speaker A: I'm the only one in touch. I'm the only one that touches things. [01:35:28] Speaker C: I'm the people's person, man. I'm representing the people on this show. [01:35:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I, I work for Spectrum, but I was also, I was also ladder carrying and under house climb crawling and like that sort of stuff. So like, I wasn't really. It was not very corporate environment. I don't think I've ever had a corporate job and like photography, worked at photo studio, construction, media, business. [01:35:57] Speaker D: Yeah. Closest thing I ever had corporate jobs, [01:36:00] Speaker A: worked at a cafe for a while [01:36:02] Speaker D: was corporate retail like Lowe's. And that is the most ridiculous thing that was, I've ever experienced. I had like, like one of the guys that I, I mean, like, you know, I don't have a problem with weed and like, at the time I was smoking a lot of it and. But I never, it never crossed my mind to go to work high. For some reason I was like, why? Like, this just doesn't. That's not really. This is just like a weird buzz kill. But this guy that was working the aisle next to me would show up to work every day, like, just blazed out of his mind, which I thought was kind of funny and whatever. And one day he like. So I had like five bosses, and my bosses would kind of like, argue over what they wanted done through me, which was really, like, one of them would tell me they wanted something done this way, and then the other one would come and tell me I needed to do it this way. And. And so they wouldn't go talk to each other about these things. They were trying to get, you know, just influence me to do things one way or the other, which is exhausting. [01:37:14] Speaker A: Putting the uncomfort of actually addressing. [01:37:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:37:18] Speaker A: Disagreement through you. [01:37:20] Speaker B: And. [01:37:20] Speaker D: And in general, like, my. I. I don't have a problem. Anything that I do, I kind of like, will just enjoy whatever I'm doing. And one of the things I had to do at the end of every day was like, face all the items and like. Or. And, you know, part of the process is I'm trying to keep everything organized during the day. Like, people are just taking stuff off the shelf and sitting it somewhere and, you know, so I'm trying to keep all the items in the right places and keep them. And. And so at the end of the day, they said, you know, face all the items. And so I just would go through and do this and didn't think anything about, like, how long it was taking or what I. You know, like, how. Well, I just. I'm doing this for me. Like, this is. If I'm going to do something, like, I want it to look good. I want to be, like, happy with what I've done. And. And like, I literally had this guy come up to me one day and. And I. I can understand people maybe thinking these things once in a while to themselves. I never imagined somebody would say it out loud to another person. He said, hey, man, you don't need to do this. Like, the way you're doing it. You're making the rest of us look bad. And I'm like, what? He's like, you. You're doing it too good. [01:38:31] Speaker A: Like, do it a little shittier. [01:38:33] Speaker C: What. [01:38:34] Speaker D: What the. Get out of my face. Like, I just. I don't even know. And then. And then the other thing was, like, I had. The guy right above me was like, screwing with my schedule because he thought I wanted his job or something. And I'm like, dude, I don't even. I don't even want to Be like, nothing about this job. [01:38:52] Speaker A: I don't even want to be here, man. [01:38:53] Speaker D: Like, like this is just, it's just a temporary paycheck. [01:38:57] Speaker A: Just bored. [01:38:59] Speaker D: Yeah. And, and, but he was like, tried to make my schedule incompatible with my life. Like he would just do everything to make life hard for me because he didn't want me to be. He thought I was going to take his job. [01:39:15] Speaker A: What the fuck? [01:39:16] Speaker D: I just, I don't know. The corporate world, that is my only experience with the corporate world. But it's insane. Like these people are crazy. I just, I just learned that I don't like people is basically what it is. Normies, normies in general, just, I just hate them all. [01:39:33] Speaker A: But that's fair. Yeah, that makes sense. No, I feel like the. It's. I'm shocked. Kind of like when I hear from other people is just how much of it is like how many people are, are basically policy enforcers. You know, like it's a set of rules and, and like responses and things that you're supposed to have. Like how robotic so much of the corporate environment is, is that you're not allowed to. Like, there's no autonomy. And it's not just like, oh, we're like trying to keep it together. It's that like people are trained to be robots, you know, like so many people are just like, well this is what it said. Like, this is what you're supposed to do. Like healthcare is such a great example is the like the arguments of just trying to get someone to like during the COVID days. And you know, Jeff, you remember the conversation we had when dad was in a hospital is just trying to get someone to like be human in front of you. To be like, no, stop, stop, stop saying the line that you're supposed to say. And speak to me. Like, talk to me as a human being. Be like, what is your name? My name's Nancy. Like, like I'm literally trying to like break into like an actual person and be like, does this make sense to you? It's like, well, the policy is like, does this make sense to you? Speak to me. Like, we are not in this building. Like, you know, like I'm literally trying to have a conversation with you. Stop roboting. Stop it. And, and just like I've just wild the disconnect between reality some people get when they're in this authoritative position because and, and it's not even their authority, it's that they think they are supposed to just be some sort of a funnel for the, that somebody shoved in the back of their head so that it spits out of their mouth exactly the same way. And they, and all thought is gone. There's no thought between the, between the, between the funnel, the funnel going in and the funnel coming out at me. [01:41:46] Speaker D: The thing is, is they like, they like the power, but they don't want to be responsible for anything. And so if they just, if they [01:41:53] Speaker A: think that's why, that's why your boss is all argued through, through you, is because they had the power to give you, to lay it off on you, but they don't actually want the responsibility. Dude, I, I'm dealing with the uncomfortable. [01:42:06] Speaker D: Had to take something to dad and, and there was literally like a 300 pound nurse sitting at a table like at the end of the hallway where the door is like, to like ch. Like telling people they couldn't come in the building. And I like, like, I can't remember what it was, but it was like stuff, like he needed stuff that he needed. And, and they were like, well, you've been here once already today. And I was like, yeah, yeah, because I had to come find out that he needed this stuff and I got to bring it back. And like, well, we have like a one visitor a day policy or some, some crazy thing like that. And, and like, I can't remember. Like, I, I tried to like navigate around this woman's dumb stuff and then finally I was like, She's 300 pounds. I was like, all right, chase me, bitch. And then I just, I just, I just walk master. And, and like, and I mean, I think she called and told some other part, you know, some other people that I was going to be in the room. But you know, no, like, literally nobody said anything after that. Like, so it was, it was kind of fine. But [01:43:14] Speaker A: that's fantastic. [01:43:15] Speaker D: But no talking about. Well, real quick though, talking about the corporate thing. You, when you were working for Spectrum, I remember you talking about like you were one of the only people that could fix some of the crazy problems that other, other techs would leave. But your points, your, your corporate score was so low because what was your score, guy? [01:43:40] Speaker A: Well, it was like my score wasn't that low. Well, actually my score was mostly. No, no, no, my, my corporate score [01:43:48] Speaker C: he got fired from Spectrum had a [01:43:50] Speaker A: perfect customer service rating. [01:43:51] Speaker D: He had 100% in customer, like customer satisfaction, which none of the other techs, you know, like, would have. But his time like there a huge portion of his score was like based on the time. And because they kept sat, he was the only one that could fix certain problems. They kept saddling him with these, these things that, that would down that, that would take for like much longer. And so when he went to transfer, the guy in the new like section that the regional manager that he was going to transfer to was like, I don't, I don't know if we want this guy. And his, his regional manager had to [01:44:29] Speaker A: be like, no, no, no, no. Everybody was like, don't worry. [01:44:33] Speaker D: Yeah, [01:44:35] Speaker A: every, everybody's. Everybody vouched for me, but it was just, I really think. [01:44:39] Speaker D: But the fact that they had to vouch for you means that the, the system is. [01:44:43] Speaker A: The problem was that they wanted everything to be a number. And you can't qualitative a number. You know, you can't. So like when, when they're. And, and that was a huge. We talked about it as text quite often actually. And, and they also wanted like very segmented like, responsibilities and there would be like these stupid things that like, just like having access to a thing that will allow you to ping the, the boxes or, or reset the, the router from the, from the server side is something that you could do in 10 seconds. But we would have to call in to the other people who had the responsibility for this and you have to talk through them. And you would sit on the phone. You think that you guys like go to call support and you have to wait a long time on the phone. Sometimes we would just sit in somebody's house and we would wait for 40 minutes to talk to a tech on like, talk to our own support internal to get them to like ping a modem. Because I can't, I can't force reset from, from like my side. I know exactly what needs to happen and I could do it myself in 10 seconds if they just gave me like login access to, to do this thing. It's not like, oh, I have like customer, I don't know, like I have control over their account or something like that. It wasn't, wasn't even that sort of a thing. But they're like, you have to like, authority is here and authority is here. And so they just, and it would. I don't even know how much it costs them. I don't even know. I actually did. I went to my tech lead one time. I, I tallied up how much time I wasted waiting for to get like access to these sorts of things and, and then did an average over, over a month in a little notebook. And I, I sat down with him and I was like, listen, this is how much you're blowing And I know it's not his fault, but it was, it was worth at least. I think my, my minimum guess was three entire techs worth in our division. Like three entire people on. On call were just being wasted like waiting, waiting for authority. So I don't even know what that, that salary is. And like we had like 200 techs or whatever. So just, just crazy like that's a huge amount of waste in something that could be fixed with a login. [01:47:11] Speaker C: Hey, can we, can we talk about alternative node implementations for a second? I feel, I feel like so many [01:47:17] Speaker A: people were getting given shit to production ready. [01:47:20] Speaker C: We've been wondering. We've been wondering about this day for, for decades. I mean for like 15 years, guys. And like it's here. Don't you think? [01:47:31] Speaker A: Everybody's saying it's a nothing burger, it's a nothing, nobody's ever going to do it. Or it's. They're asking for donations and actually it was kind of a funny post comparing the bitcoin. [01:47:43] Speaker C: I think one of John attacks really good points in his interviews and mechanic can probably verify this or not. Um, is that it's actually not a problem getting funding for devs. It's a problem getting devs that, that want that career. [01:47:59] Speaker B: I don't know. [01:48:00] Speaker A: You don't know. [01:48:01] Speaker D: Okay, well, if, if we now have competing implementations, does this mean that DEI officially killed. [01:48:07] Speaker A: Well, there's no implementation yet. [01:48:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [01:48:11] Speaker A: It's a nonprofit right now. [01:48:13] Speaker D: Yeah, it's. [01:48:14] Speaker A: I mean we, we do have a competing implementation. That's not. [01:48:17] Speaker C: Yes, well, we're gonna have so many with, with Claude. They're. I mean, I'm about to make one. I'm about to make a UTX Oracle Note just for myself. [01:48:26] Speaker A: Dude, no, no, no, no. This one. This was really cool. Who was this? Oh, I did not put this down in the list. Somebody messaged me. I was talking to somebody who was in one of the bitcoin and AI circles, but somebody has been quietly. Somebody working on lightning. If, if anybody knows who this is or if whoever it is is listening to this, please reach out because I would love to talk about this. Somebody has quietly made a open source model, a fork of a different model I believe that is just designed for engineering on lightning for coding lightning apps. [01:49:01] Speaker C: I believe it. It's so. It's so easy now. [01:49:04] Speaker A: And, and like I immediately just like to think about like really going hard, like going super hard into a, a total and complete bitcoin lightning coding model where the weights are all about like intelligent Engineering and like, like we are very, very, I mean not even very close to that. We're 100% in the realm of this could totally happen right now. It's just about spending the energy to actually get it into production. And I just thought that was so cool and I really wanted to have a conversation and episode about it and I forgot, I totally forgot until just this moment. [01:49:43] Speaker C: What do you think Mechanic? [01:49:44] Speaker B: We in a new world of implementation diversity? [01:49:48] Speaker C: Yep. [01:49:52] Speaker B: I don't know. This is one of those ones where I'm kind of mired in stuff behind the scenes and I'm just like really? I have to be careful what I say and what I don't say. I mean I don't, I don't personally feel like it's all that helpful at the moment specifically. But I mean it, there's a lot of, I didn't expect CORE and all like AJ Towns and shinobi and like you know, the usual people that are on that side of this whole thing to be really annoyed and angered by it because nothing about it really like, it's all the languages. Like the, the worst you could say about it is eh, this probably won't really result in much. That's it, like, that's the worst thing because it's not a bad thing to have another like fork of CORE be implemented by some known developers in the space and for funding to be more, it's literally just slightly more decentralized to have this. So I, I can't understand why anyone would like attack that. [01:50:57] Speaker A: I'll tell you why. Because they've put it on the spam debate and they've gotten defensive about anything that appears to be poo poo on Core. [01:51:08] Speaker B: Well that's, but that's a mistake. [01:51:10] Speaker A: And that's, that's what I think most people, most of them see this as. But that's a mistake. [01:51:16] Speaker B: From their perspective. [01:51:17] Speaker A: This is, no, I'm not saying the Republican, I'm not saying it's a mistake or not. I, I do agree that that's, that's a total mistake. I, I don't see how there's anything negative about this at all except from the standpoint of like if somebody donates and nothing of success comes from this, but like that's doing any projects of any consequence means that 95% of what you do is going to be a failure. Like 95% of all things are failures. It's, the purpose is to find the five things that actually are worth something. So I, I, I don't, I agree with you in that sense, I don't really see how you could see this as a bad thing unless you've put a personal stake into. You've. You've projected some totally different conversation onto this and you can't separate your feelings about that in just making a simple assessment as to whether or not this is a bit like, sure, this is cool. Like, I, I don't know, the write up is pretty neat. That bunch of good points. That's. I think that's a great idea. Especially considering the fact that like Knots is so reliant on Luke and Luke is a bit of a wild card, you know. And I don't think I remember seeing anything about this being like they were going to support BIP110 or they were going to do anything about spam. Like it has nothing, it had nothing to do with that. But that's what this got pigeonholed into. I feel like. [01:52:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's because at the moment, Core are the greatest guys ever and anything that doesn't toe that line is unacceptable. [01:52:53] Speaker A: A lot of heel digging. A lot of heel digging. That feels completely unnecessary. [01:52:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that was silly. But I mean, from my perspective, I'm all about Bitpoint 10 and I don't think anything other than that is really going to help with settling things down at the moment. Either bip 110 needs to die or it needs to get adopted and just become dominant. Those are the two options right now. Otherwise all that happens in August is chaos. And I don't know who's going to win that game of chicken. But I know, obviously I know what side I'm on and you all know what side I'm on. But to me, the fact that there's. I don't think they mentioned anything about it. They did say it would be a fork of Core, if I recall. But they didn't say it would be, which by the way made it realistic. If it was a ground up reimplementation, I'd be like, call me in five years. But it's not, it's. It's. It's a fork of Core. So if it, whether or not it has the bip110 logic merged in it, I think I, I see them not having alluded to it in any way, but also Knots doesn't have that. [01:54:08] Speaker D: Right. [01:54:08] Speaker B: So if their implementation had bit 110 but knots didn't, that would be very interesting. That could, maybe that could be a way for them to. Because you, you now have three options and I don't know exactly like most of the people on the not side were celebrating the announcement, most of the people on the core side were attacking it. [01:54:27] Speaker D: And that. [01:54:27] Speaker B: That's kind of my instinct went the other way. I found that a third implementation right now, another fork of core doesn't really do that much because that's what the bit1 10 client already kind of is and that's self funded and but. And that Core, frankly I expected them to be like yeah, like this is like segwit2.x and bcash like they've just divided the big blocker community into two parts. So I was like that. But that didn't work. So basically everyone on our side is didn't attack it or feel threatened by it and everyone on the core side that should have celebrated it and high fived each other attacked it. So my intuition about how people respond to these things is obviously way off base. But yeah, I think more to the point Luke is putting like there are lots of consistent devs working on knots now that want funding and we've been talking about sorting this out for a long time and we basically have all that together now. It just hasn't been announced yet. So look for something in that regard over the next few days. Probably not. [01:55:40] Speaker C: Over the weekend I was thinking about Luke and like the next release of Knots. Not D's Knots but you know, the actual main. And I could see Luke like weirdly not putting bip 110 as default in the next version of Knobs because of some super altruistic principled reasons of his. [01:56:03] Speaker B: Do you know if he's going to put it into the mainstream knots? [01:56:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I like default. [01:56:14] Speaker B: If it goes in then it's the only option. I know he was dead against making it like a configurable thing where it's like you can run bip110 if you like or not run bip110 if you like. I know he was like that's. I would never. Not if it's going in then it needs to be the only option because if it's in the user as an option to fall out of consensus then that's just broken. Like why would you ever release that? Okay. I think he, I think he's just genuinely looking to make sure there's enough genuine support for it because a fork can only a dev putting a soft fork into their client, you know, willy nilly is not. Is not. That's just going to fail unless it's adequately supported. So it's. And there's no faking that. Like you can Pump up numbers and everyone knows that those numbers are fake. And you can, you know, I don't think anyone wants to delude ourselves on the Bitcoin 10 side. Like we, we went up pretty quick, we hit around 9 or 10% of nodes and I don't know what the, the ratio is if believable or not. Couple of blocks now. But that's one guy, an ocean guy. We know who he is. I don't know. I don't know when it reaches the. Because no one wants to go first. Right. And after a while it starts to become a thing that's quite acceptable to do. I don't know exactly at what point it becomes acceptable to merge into knots. [01:57:42] Speaker C: Well, I mean I think you're going to have a lot of people getting new machines when their one terabyte drives fill up this summer. And I think it's, you know, a lot of them are just going to default to whatever the latest knots is. And I mean maybe node signaling doesn't matter, but I think it does. I think that it's a conversation starter. [01:58:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we'll get there soon. I think knots will probably have 110 in it before the end of April. [01:58:15] Speaker C: That'd be cool. I'm so curious. I mean all this stuff is such an experiment to me. What does bit 110 default in knots do to signaling numbers? It's like we don't get experiments like that very often. Like that's really, that's really cool. [01:58:31] Speaker A: I can't believe that people aren't even like, even if you're against it, I can't believe you're not like interested. [01:58:39] Speaker C: There's so many things to learn. [01:58:41] Speaker A: Yeah, this is really interesting. You know, like BCASH was a straight up fork and then there was the user activated soft fork and all that stuff. And all of that was like, like all the viciousness and stuff aside, it was so interesting. Like it was super, super interesting and I loved digging into all of it. And like part of me, part of me was like, you know, angry just because of like the incessant conversation and the. And I get so impatient or just like sick of people, you know, making some claim or some narrative or whatever. But like I, I still never really tried to like held any ill will toward people. In fact, I remember the night that BCash split off and there was like a huge market swings back and forth for, for both of them. I was like openly congratulate. Like I was in the forums being like, this is actually pretty dope. We have like a, a real world experiment of this. Like I was a little bit excited about it just because that's the first, first time that there had been a real division and like we're going to test our theory and you're going to test yours. This is how the consensus break lays out. And you know all of this stuff, I was really fascinated with it and that's why I even since then I had tried at multiple times. It ended up in the same place with Roger Ver and he came in and like joined in with Keat and I thought he was going to like be on about like P2P tech and stuff again. And I was like, well let's do this. Like let's get those guys back and do peer to peer tech again and like build stuff. And he immediately, he immediately he's like 10 years later or whatever the hell it is. I don't know. Feels like a two decades. He just, he just laid into it. Bitcoin isn't the real bitcoin is bitcoin cash. You all suck. And all this time I was like, seriously? Seriously, seriously. But anyway, it was very interesting and [02:00:44] Speaker B: I was wrong about so much about how it works. That's why I'm like blown away by this hash rate rental thing because everyone's just like, miners aren't going to do it. You need some hash rate, like asymmetric advantage ignored. You need like 10% of miners to be mining bip110 for the other 90% to get scared and, and flip over also. You can't have zero percent. And, and I'm like, okay, well we have no idea what's going to happen with that. But now like unhosted Marsalis is like, dude, dam exists. Miners don't care. Just buy their hash rate and mine bip110 blocks. You like how the entire if you wanted to buy all of the world's hash rate, it's 18 bitcoins an hour. That's all of it. That's the entire zeta hash. So once you have a few thousand plebs like Hodlers with quite a lot of money that are willing to spend Maybe a collective 1 bitcoin an hour or something like that, that's you're there, you have enough hash rate at that point for it to be a thing and the miners don't care. So I'm like, is that going to be the lesson of this cycle? That like miners are really just hashes now? Like you need to mine at home. And that's always been the theory. Like the, the End game of bitcoin mining around. Like there are, you know, we. We can either cancel halvings or we can add a billion use cases. Whatever it is we need to do to keep blocks small. Whatever our rationalization is for making people mine and keeping the difficulty high. Like, what if it's just bitcoin is mining and they don't care if they lose a bit because they just want to do so for the health of their stash. Like, I know the motivation is real because I have it. I will gladly rent hash rate and mine with it. And I don't care if I come out with 93% of what it is I started with or something like that. I found some blocks. It's amazing. And in the long run, that might eventually become motivating. Mining is always slightly less than profitable. Always anyway, by design. Like the minute it's profitable, difficulty goes up and most people are unprofitable. Again, that's just the nature of mining. So it's always going to be kind of weird. Like, and if it ever becomes profitable, [02:02:56] Speaker A: I will never not. [02:02:59] Speaker B: What's that? [02:03:01] Speaker A: I was just saying I will never not have a bitcoin heater. Yeah, you know, I know. Like, like it will just always be that. [02:03:08] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:03:09] Speaker A: Like no matter how much. And I'll probably upgrade it for no reason. I just want the. I want a faster heater, you know, [02:03:16] Speaker B: there's some significant hash rate though, like home heating. And as much as I love the bit axe movement and the heat punk movement, all that stuff, none of it really amounts to much hash rate. There are serious hashes out there that are willing to just rent it and be like, okay, just like 99% of the mining on the network. All the miners, except for Mara and the people on Ocean are happy just pointing hash at some stratum server and saying, you figure it out and pay me for my compute. And so that being the existing model tells me that if plebs figure that out and go, all right, send me an exahash for the next five hours. I want to try and find a block. I'll give you 3% more than you get on an FPPs pool. And if you find a block, you made a ton of money, but you're using Ocean as a reward split coordinator, so you get paid a decent amount regardless. So even if you, if you don't find a block, you're still in the share window. And another miner finds a block and gives you your appropriate split. So you probably get most of it back. You have a 66% chance of coming out ahead, assuming you're operating in 0% and you have a 33% chance of losing money because that's how Poisson distributions work. So 66% of the time it works every time. [02:04:39] Speaker A: Oh well, I've actually got a lot of. There's a number of other like interesting news items I want to just point out the. So production ready. [02:04:54] Speaker B: I'll. [02:04:55] Speaker A: I'll have the blog post about that one if anybody wants to read. In fact I might read it on the show and. But Breeze. The Breeze SDK for anybody building, especially if you're like vibe coding some stuff right now they just have a feature now where you can create your keys with Passkey. So they have login with Apple in their SDK now for creating a Bitcoin wallet which is super dope. Then there is a stealth as a tool for privacy auditing for your own Bitcoin wallet analysis. Then somebody else linked to me am I exposed? Which is a client side Bitcoin privacy scanner to analyze your transaction data so that you can basically just have better privacy. And I think in the world of like agents and like all of these tools, this is. It's going to be really interesting to see when like you can have your agent handle a lot of bit. Well, if you're using Claude, then you're. You're not doing anything for Bitcoin privacy because Claude has all of your data. But you know, use Quinn or whatever to actually analyze and give you assessments on like what to do or how to pick UTXOs or something like that. And as you have tools for auditing and understanding how to use these things, being able to use an agent to like manage or deal with stuff like that is just. I'm very, very interested in this. And then Clarkian built pearcal, which is right now it's just a decentralized calendar app and it is right now on Android. I have not gotten to test it yet but I saved it and I was going to give the link so that other people could test it and I want to start playing around with it. I just haven't had time been so, so drowning and Pair all the things and Pair Drop is actually available too. You can get the, the early version of that. There's a couple of dead buttons just because I hadn't added the, the things to them yet. But it does its job. I use it every day. So just for tools and new launches. Those are some things to check out. And we'll have links down in the show notes now. Steve, sorry I interrupted you. [02:07:04] Speaker C: Oh no. I mean I'm a miles and random thought when we were just talking about Luke and this the bip on 10 stuff, I had kind of a step back thought sometime last week where I was thinking about Jameson's quote where he was like, you know, consider I am an attacker. Like what are you going to do about it? And when I think about it, I was like well maybe like maybe this is kind of awesome because even though I don't really like a lot of the things Jameson says, I do think that he wants bitcoin to succeed. I don't think he's like 100% out to kill it. And like the same with Luke. I don't see Luke as. I don't agree with everything Luke said. Please take the two year time bomb out of knots. Geez. But like Luke is also a person who genuinely wants. [02:07:58] Speaker A: Forget that. That's there. That's. [02:08:01] Speaker C: I will never keep my cold storage on node nowhere than newer than two years. Ever. Ever. I mean we have a clear example of why you should never do this. [02:08:10] Speaker B: You know that's configurable, right? [02:08:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I know it is, but it's just crazy as default. But anyway. But so we have like, you know, Jameson, like what are you going to do to stop me? Consider I'm attacker stress test. And then we have like Luke like contentious soft fork stress tests. And these are like stress tests that are like within the bounds of the anti fragile system. It's like in house testing in a way. And I just, I just think about how awesome that is. [02:08:37] Speaker A: You know, Steve loves when people fight. [02:08:40] Speaker C: Oh God, I love. Dude, I bought a bar, man. I am, I am stroking fires every day. Do you hear what this person said? Do you hear what they said? [02:08:49] Speaker A: Because you're done at the end of the table they were talking about this big fat woman and how disgusting she was. I'm like 80 sure it was your mom. [02:08:56] Speaker C: They were talking about having a stack. Like not being connected. Being off the grid gives you this confidence that you know no fight's gonna rock your boat. So it's fine, it's great. I'm not gonna get canceled. I'm un cancelable, am I? [02:09:13] Speaker A: Cancel me. I'll just cancel room. I don't understand. [02:09:18] Speaker B: Boys, I think I got a jump. Yeah, it's been fun. [02:09:23] Speaker A: Time to roll it up. [02:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I will defend the time bomb by the way. Actually. [02:09:29] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:09:30] Speaker B: Because all the alternatives suck as well. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but all the alternatives are also bad. [02:09:37] Speaker C: It does solve the 2106 problem. I'll give you that. It solves the 2106 problem. If you can't run two year old nodes then yeah, gotcha. We're not gonna have a hard fork. [02:09:48] Speaker B: So I was surprised by it. Like I thought this is like people running it's like forced updates is how you do it in closed source windows. Whatever land that sucks. No one accepts that users just. [02:10:03] Speaker A: Wait a second. What I just. I just found found out a way to get me to run bip 110 put the 21 fix the 21s bug [02:10:14] Speaker C: dathom and the core version and the core version of bip110 say it's also 21.06 compatible. You fixed the major issues before core did. Just make it just do little stuff like that man. [02:10:26] Speaker B: Well that would make it a hard fork. Unfortunately no. [02:10:29] Speaker C: You can be compatible until year 2106. [02:10:33] Speaker A: It's. [02:10:33] Speaker C: It just keeps going. [02:10:35] Speaker D: You just have a flag day or whatever. [02:10:36] Speaker A: It doesn't start on August. The flag day is 2105. [02:10:41] Speaker C: Yeah. But it's ready. It's going to keep going and all the other nodes are going to stop. [02:10:44] Speaker A: I think we're going to get there. Yeah. Speak. Speaking of that let's. Let's final thoughts and shout out to the crowds mechanic what you got? [02:10:55] Speaker B: Buy some hash rate and point Sounds self serving but ocean is the is the only pool that lets you do it so I guess I'll be vaguer. Buy some hash rate mine bip110 blocks using Datum and point them at any pool that supports the datum protocol. [02:11:17] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:11:17] Speaker B: Have fun. Mine some bip110 blocks. I guarantee you you'll never feel the same. [02:11:22] Speaker A: Mining any block never change your life. [02:11:25] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:11:26] Speaker B: If you mind I'm waiting for that day that a bitcoin mechanic. [02:11:29] Speaker A: Block doctors hate this one trick. [02:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it's better than any antidepressant I've ever heard of though actually most miners in a pool hate it when they find a block because they wish they'd lotto mined it instead of being on a pool. So that's strange. I get weird messages when like a guy with you know, 100 terrahash mines a block and everyone's like pleb block. Wow. Amazing. This guy with only this much hash rate finds a block and he has an existential crisis. Um even though the maths doesn't work that way because you can't you if you'd have been mining with different settings you wouldn't have been guaranteed to find the same block. It would have just been random charts, like. But they just believe I could have mined a lotto block and given myself 3.125 bitcoin. They just torture themselves with it. Anyway, yeah, peace and blessings. Great to see you all. I'll jump off. [02:12:25] Speaker A: Hell yeah, man. [02:12:25] Speaker C: All right, see you, mechanic. [02:12:27] Speaker A: Later, boss. Jeff, final thoughts. What you got, boss? I don't know, man. [02:12:33] Speaker D: I. I feel like. I don't know. I keep thinking about the. Just like. I really think it's entirely plausible that like, Corey is just like too much of an anarcho capitalist and so they just had to find some way to like, get rid of his company. And you know, like, they're just thinking about like all of the things that we've seen. If you go back and look at like when 3D printing first, like kind of exploded it. There were two or three companies that were like, you know, going to be building printers and they. They funneled a whole bunch of political money into like. I can't remember what the name of the company is now, but into one of the main companies. And they just bought up like a bunch of competitors because they want everybody under one roof that they already have political tie, you know, like, already have political control over. [02:13:22] Speaker A: So, yeah, there's a ton of them that won't. You. You can't put. You can't put this like at the printer level. [02:13:31] Speaker D: It's like Dr. They tried to put DRM. Yeah. [02:13:35] Speaker A: You can't put a design for a 3D printed gun in them and actually print it. Yeah. [02:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:13:41] Speaker A: And with all that fiat money. That's how you do it. That's how you do it. It all goes back to fiat, man, every time. Now that's an interesting, interesting thought. I don't know. I. I tend to think it's just a bunch of opportunists. [02:13:57] Speaker D: Listen, I have no. I. I know nothing about the situation, really. I'm just saying, like. Like from a thousand foot view. [02:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know anything about it either, really. [02:14:06] Speaker D: If Corey. If what Corey's saying is, you know, is legit, it could totally, like. Because I tend to. I tend to think. I mean, maybe I'm too soft on Tether, but I tend to think that given Tether's history and PA and the things he's funding and whatever that. That he is generally a, you know, a decent actor. [02:14:30] Speaker A: I like that. [02:14:31] Speaker D: Yeah. Like. So, so what are the. Like, what are the other possibilities? I'm gonna be generous to the people that, you know, I know, like and the other possibilities are that because of the positions they're in, they're forced to deal with these horrible people who are gonna try and pull strings and control things like no matter what, you know, and they're gonna try and screw people just to, just to start fights. I mean, like, you know, man, I [02:14:59] Speaker A: really just kind of think. And we'll, we'll see how if, if paradrive actually ever becomes a thing. I'm certainly intending it for it too and I'm just going to keep at it until it does. But if we ever get to, to that point, I just don't know. Like I, I feel like getting like VC investment is just like they want to deal with the devil. [02:15:26] Speaker D: Huh? [02:15:27] Speaker A: It's just like putting, putting your own handcuffs on and like you don't have the, you don't have control anymore. You don't unless you set it up at the beginning. You know, there might be like a, like a Elon Musk is example of just like don't set out the gate at the very gate is that you're not going to control what I say or how I say it, you know, by being explicitly contention like say the, the second, the second you're in the environment or the money comes in or whatever it is, go ahead and say the thing that you know is going to freak people out or piss them off on purpose to weed them back out if you know, maybe, maybe like that's the strategies just like understand. It's like I'm just not going to play the game this way, but I'd love some investment. [02:16:22] Speaker D: I think some, something like paradrive like your, your goal would be to chase grants or something with no strings attached at the beginning and everything else just, just you. The, the goal is that the thing does. [02:16:36] Speaker A: There's a lot of great people in companies giving grants for that sort of thing and, and I think we can get, we don't have to have much fun. You need a long run. [02:16:43] Speaker D: I was about to say the design, the design is set up so that you don't need a whole bunch of infrastructure. So that's really the like the great thing about it. [02:16:52] Speaker A: We'll see. Just keep working, head down. Thank you, Steve. [02:16:59] Speaker C: Oh yeah, yeah, not much just you know, as you're vibe coding bitcoin apps out there, like, you know, bitcoin data is not like website data. Like if you, if you have a problem reading data from blocks like that's, that's going to cause a serious problem and just make multiple independent checks when you first read that Data from your node. It's very easy to do. And you know it's going to save you a lot of headaches, like life changing headaches later on. If you got a. If you got a bug in your RPC requests and you think you're getting good data and you're not, um, that's gonna be a bad life later on. So please, I know a lot of people are gonna be doing this, so do a lot of checks. Early test early. [02:17:51] Speaker A: Good vibe coding rules. Any bugs? Any bugs or anything you want to address or. [02:17:57] Speaker C: No, I mean, actually, you know, I didn't even know the bugs it found. I was like, okay, do this with rpc. And then I was like, all right. [02:18:03] Speaker A: Like, I was fishing for 2106. [02:18:07] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, 2106. Guys, it's fix it. [02:18:13] Speaker A: That is the siren, siren song of this show. [02:18:16] Speaker C: How many times have you heard people talk about, what's it called, tail emissions and like, what happens in the year 2144? Everyone's like, yep, it's. You know what? That's year 2144. But we need to dedicate our brain space to this now. You know, we need to think about this now and talk about solutions because it's worth talking about now. Then you're like, what about Bitcoin's hard coded to die like 30 years before that? They're like, why are you talking about that now? [02:18:44] Speaker A: They're like, we figured that out later. [02:18:48] Speaker C: So far away. Let's get back to 2144. [02:18:54] Speaker A: Let's get back to the urgent issues. [02:18:56] Speaker C: Yeah, [02:18:59] Speaker A: fucking tail questions. [02:19:01] Speaker B: All right. [02:19:03] Speaker A: Don't get me started. We'll do that on the next round table. [02:19:05] Speaker C: All right. All right, see y' all later. [02:19:08] Speaker A: Later, guys. [02:19:08] Speaker C: Bye. [02:19:13] Speaker A: And that'll wrap us up. Don't forget to check out. I'll try to have the links to all the things that I mentioned in the show as well as the TFTC episode we talked about and the episode with Knut von Home and Luke with John Attack. And I'll try to make sure my AI catches all the other things that I said I would link to. Hit me up if I did miss any or my AI missed any of the ones that I mentioned. And don't forget to check out my affiliates and the links and discounts that I have right down in the show notes. Also, I hope to see a bunch of you guys at BitBlock. Boom. That is on April 9th. If you haven't gotten tickets yet, the price will go up just a little bit here or the final price increase will happen in, like a day or two. So actually, it might be happening on the day this is released, so you might miss it. But check it out if you haven't. Sorry if I'm totally off base, but hope to see you guys there. And I hope to have a lot of really cool stuff to share in my talk and with the audience there to hang out with you guys and build with you guys and talk bitcoin. I will be there. Dallas Fort Worth, Bitblock. Boom. That'll do it. I will catch you guys on the next episode. Thank you for joining and listening to Guy's roundtable, and I will see you next time. I am Guy Swan and this has been our two sats.