Chat_124 - The Next Web with John Carvalho

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Our philosophy with building pubky was all right, we're not going to say never on a server, we're going to say use a server if you want, don't use a server if you don't want. Either way is fine because no matter what happens to you, you can redefine it later. So it's just basically adding the censorship resistance, this credible exit to using servers. And that's a big part of what pubg enables that other alternatives don't really enable in quite the same way or at. [00:00:40] Speaker B: What is up guys? Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible. I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else. You know, we've got a fantastic show. It's been a bit since we've had John Carvalho on the show, but I have been wanting to take a deep dive or take a deeper dive into pub key, which we just did an introduction to this Read the pub key, the next web piece on the show very recently, which I wanted to do as a precursor to this conversation because anybody who's been following me and this show knows that I've been rabbit holing really hard down the peer to peer noster. Basically the new, the rebirth of the decentralized Internet. And this is deeply tied into this and this is a very, very exciting and very interesting new project in that space looking at what the best, what the optimum of each of the design choices is and how to take advantage of the web of trust, how to take advantage of a key system. And I think this is just going to be a really, really great conversation. In fact it was a really great conversation because we have already had this conversation and and I think you guys are really, really going to like it. So real quick, this episode is brought to you by Fold. You can get sats back on literally everything that you do. I pay my bills and I get sats back. Somebody just posted on Twitter actually that they paid their taxes, got like 25 bucks or something back and it is in sats so it goes up with the price of bitcoin. This is just one of those things that just kind of eases the pain a little bit, you know what I mean? And then you can put those sats in your BitKit wallet which is a non custodial on chain and Lightning wallet which has one of the best user interfaces. I love their design, I love the simplicity of just this is your savings and this is your spending account. They run an LSP so that all of the back end is just obfuscated away. You don't have to think about it. BitKit is a fantastic wallet. If you haven't tried it out, you'll actually hear a little bit about it in this show because John Carvalho and Synonym is actually running the BitKit wallet as well. And then lastly, for your cold storage, you want a solid hardware wallet and mine is not in. It's in the mail, but it hasn't come yet. I just bought a Jade plus and the blockstream has an affiliate link. So I have that affiliate link down in the show notes. I think it gives you a discount. I don't remember what it is right now, but I will have it down there so that you can check it out and you can get your j. It's a really awesome looking hardware wallet. And keep an eye out. I'm probably going to do some videos and post it on Nostr and Twitter and all that good stuff. So check them out. All right. With that, let's go ahead and jump into today's awesome conversation with John Carvalho. Bitcoin error log on the next web built with pub key. All right, welcome to show. Dude, it's been a minute. It's been a minute. We've only, we've only done two shows together on here maybe. I don't know, I don't remember how. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Many because it's been so many years now. [00:03:48] Speaker B: It's been a long time. It's been a long time. I wanted to have this conversation mostly about, well, partially actually. Just have an update on what you've been doing with Synonym. Because I think the first time or the last time we did this, it was really like when y'all were really kicking off And I think BitKit was either brand new or just proposed or something like you were talking about that. So it's been. It's been a minute. We have a lot to catch up on. But first off, just, I mean every. Ever feel like everybody knows Bitcoin error log. So but just in case, give a. A short introduction for yourself to the audience. [00:04:31] Speaker A: Sure. [00:04:32] Speaker B: And I'll direct them to all. All the other episodes we've done together. [00:04:35] Speaker A: A brief background on myself and Synonym. So yeah, I've been in Bitcoin since late 2012, almost full time since then in various ways, but in the kind of bitcoin business scene more maybe in the last, I don't know. Actually it's been like seven years or so because I did exotica before this and bit refill after Exotica. And so yeah, I've been doing bitcoin stuff for a while, mostly making products. Very involved in bitcoin discourse on Twitter, for whatever that's worth to people. And I, I'm somewhat known for having, I guess, unpopular opinions when it comes to bitcoin things, but my own personal. [00:05:19] Speaker B: Goal is just contrarian Carvalho. [00:05:22] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I almost take that as an insult, to be honest. Like, it's accurate. Like, I'm not going to deny that I am quite contrarian, but the way people use that, they often mean, like, for no reason, you know, And I just, I think that I have. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I would just. I would disagree with that. I would disagree with that use of it. I think about it as John Carvalho has his own opinion and like, whatever anybody else's opinion is, John Carvalho will still have his opinion. So, like, that's what I think about. [00:05:51] Speaker A: I make an effort to, like, take something clean and be like, all right, what. What do I think about this? Forget about what everybody says. These are just data points that I'm not going to let anybody influence me. Um, so sorry, influencers. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Oftentimes that is contrarian, but not always. [00:06:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, I sometimes end up in, you know, interesting memey situations because of my behavior. Like the Roger Ver thing with the flip off. Flipping me off. But yeah, and then on synonym. Our history is a little bit tricky because we've actually been around. It'll be. I think it's been four years now. And so the four. The first two years, actually it's. It's coming on five years. In a few months it'll be five. But the first two years or so we were like in stealth mode. And so we didn't really do anything in public. And then that's when we kind of revealed what we were doing and what we were and the early stages of BitKit, which is a bitcoin wallet that supports Bitcoin and self custodial Lightning with a node in the wallet. So, yeah, then what actually happened in 2024 was we finally came out of beta with Bitkit, so we formally released that into app stores. So it's like stable and, you know, working for the most part as far as you can go with Lightning and ldk. And yeah, we also released a few months ago in October at Plan B in Lugano, the next iteration of all of our web solution stuff, which is called Pub Key. [00:07:17] Speaker B: Sweet. That. That's really what I want to get into here because I barely got to even get a good explanation of what it was in Lugano. But basically I Actually got the best, I got the best part of it just chatting with you in the, in the food hall for, for a couple of minutes there. And this is very, very close to a lot of the things that I've been working on and a lot of where I feel like the tech and things are moving now. Just because I think there's, if you look like one layer up above, kind of the money and the foundations of this, we're just realizing how many additional problems there are that like the, we're seeing the manifestation of the consequences of centralized everything online. And maybe it's just like my proximity to it. I feel like there has been a far larger push and more concerted and better funded effort towards solving this than there has been since I've been following it. And synonym is very close to all of that. Like that's, I mean that's what you guys are doing in a lot of ways. And so maybe give me the overview of what your thinking on synonym is. And then we, we did just read the introduction to. Or the, the next web piece on Pub Key. I'm not sure if you saw that on the show recently, so probably a lot of the audience already has an introduction. But if you could give me kind of a second rundown from your perspective because you usually will explain it differently every after a week passes. What's the view of Pub Key and why did Synonym build pubkey specifically? [00:09:07] Speaker A: Sure, I guess maybe I'll zoom out all the way first. Which is just you mentioned synonym and so synonym at large. You know, our mission is basically to build what we call the atomic economy. It's just a term. It's like a project name or a concept name. It's not the name of a product or anything like that. It's not a grand philosophy on anything. It's just the idea that, well, Bitcoin gave us the idea that we could take down big banks with a market created money that wasn't controlled by any one person. And now that got us all thinking, well, maybe we should do that for all of our big problems. And so that's what. And I remember, you know, not so much lately, but years ago people would always talk about like you know, a future of hyper Bitcoinization and everything being Bitcoin. And I always felt like we were a bit irresponsible as a group, as a culture and as a people of bitcoiners justifying that kind of prediction. Like we never said, here is how it will work when we destroy big banks and the government's Gone and you know, like this is what we're replacing. We try and just like it just has to be this way because it makes sense and we like it. But what synonym is trying to do is say, you know, we actually have an intentional plan and a model for creating what could be an alternative digital society. And so the idea here is basically to say what can we do to replace by using technology, big tech, big banks and big state. And so we're basically trying to figure out ways to use Bitcoin and market generated credit systems and things like this for the money and finance part. Use things like pub key and decentralized web technologies and decentralized social media technologies for the kind of big tech part. And we also cover a lot of other aspects of big tech in the pub key plan, like how to kind of replace Google as an entity and all publishing platforms, things like this. And then with Big State by basically incorporating within pubkey abilities for people to self regulate, whether it be through reputation, forming webs of trust across a social graph, things like this. So what synonym is trying to do is deliver this kind of first version of an atomic economy where the whole loop is complete, where you can say take your bitkit wallet, find people using our web of trust systems and things like this where they're in total control and match with other content people, merchants, whatever it may be to make purchases and sell things as well digitally. So it's kind of a way to just cover everything that you would need to in the digital realm of having a way to kind of exit the current system and into an independent system. And so PubKey of course is a major part of that. So getting More specific to PubKey, the simplest place to start is probably just to say that pub keys, the basis of pub key is using a public key as a domain name. Now it means more than that, but that is actually like the most literal, simple definition of the most core part of PubKey. It's just simply taking the concept that people already know today with bitcoin public keys where you can pay to them and you can have a private counter key for that to be able to sign with and prove you own it. Taking those concepts and now we are bringing them to the web similar to how nostr is doing. But the difference is that Noster doesn't have any sort of what we call discovery. It's a, what is the discovery problem? It's a problem in peer to peer web and things like this. There's no way to basically know how to find me when you, when I change location or when I get censored or things like this. And so what we did is we take the same concepts that people use for websites and we applied them to keys. So now what you do is instead of going, instead of buying a authoritative domain name from an ICANN registrar, you know, you mean like going to godaddy or something? Well, if you've ever done that, you've noticed that when you buy a website you actually only get the name. And now you have to point that name at a server, you know, where your files are, where your web pages are, where whatever it is you're trying to point at is. Well, that's called DNS. And every web, every web provider has to do this. Every domain provider has to allow you to customize your DNS. But that's where the censorship can also happen. So when a domain gets taken down, they basically rewrite the DNS and now you don't get to have control of where it points anymore. But with PubKey, you sign a DNS record with your key and then you place all those DNS settings into mainline dht. And what mainline DHT is, is it's. Maybe some of your listeners are familiar because there's a lot of similarities to hyperswarm dht. The difference being that mainline DHT is much, much bigger and much, much older. So it's proven a lot. You know, it's survived the RIA trying to take them down and total government wanted to be against it. And it's still used today, mostly for downloading large files illegally. But it's a great way to distribute data in a peer to peer way that is very difficult to censor. Right, because these movie companies never figured out how to stop them. And the mainline DHT network is millions of nodes. So as far as like comparing it like to other decentralized options, nothing even holds a candle. Not even Bitcoin holds a candle to the decentralization of it. And so we've published some research that we've done as well so people can verify this and see exactly how many nodes not only are in mainline DHT, but support the specific specs that we use to be able to put your domain in them in there. So something roughly at minimum 2 million nodes are supporting our method where you could put your DNS record into the system and have it return custom DNS endpoints. Maybe this isn't the simplest explanation for some people, but going back to where I started, just again, you know what a public key is. Now you can make it so people can Find any data or any payment information that you want to be able to be found based on that key in a way that nobody can stop it. And so what we've, what we're doing is we're taking that foundation when we're building the rest of the web tools that you would need to be compatible with that. So now you need a server, you know, you need an indexer, kind of like Google you need, you need the web again, but compatible with this method. And so we've built, are building these tools including a full fledged application, the Pub Key app, which will be like an interface. Like I could do any type of file publishing eventually any type of digital, you know, E commerce kind of stuff, et cetera. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Will that be entirely web based? [00:16:14] Speaker A: I guess yes, yes. Yeah. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay. So it's basically a browser in a sense. [00:16:22] Speaker A: It's a website that's a browser if you want to be. [00:16:25] Speaker B: It's a website that's a browser. That's technical. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that makes sense. [00:16:29] Speaker A: Well, so is, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to make it sound, it is different, but it's not like night and day. When you think about like a noster client, they're also kind of like a web browser, right? Like they're pulling data from different relays and they're assembling that data in the client or some, I don't know, it depends on the provider and how they assemble the data, you know, how they structure it. But generally speaking, you know, in order to do decentralized web stuff, you want to take the data from whatever sources and let the user control what they render in their client. And so in that sense, yes, the only thing what makes it like a browser is that our website will also allow you to support this method, you know, this discovery method. But also like we're not coming at this specifically only for social media. We're trying to say yeah, we want to kill Google, we want to kill Medium, we want to kill X, we want to kill all the things that could censor you by being too centralized. And your audience probably is familiar a bit with hole punch and hypercore stuff. And so what I mentioned there is while, you know, we tried to use that model at first, but what we realized is yes, peer to peer is the ideal, like totally peer to peer. But what you need to realize is that there's always going to be an extreme advantage and use case for gathering many people in one place online. Like for example, you can't have a highly Efficient exchange and Bitcoin order book. Without a centralized setup, you know, you can't do this entirely peer to peer. It just doesn't work because you need very low latency. Same thing with like an extremely large amount of data, like something like X. If you're going to serve millions and millions of people, a social media platform, you need scale, you need, you need actual centralized scale. And so to get the kind of performance people expect without having to wait for each tweet to load from all these different sources and things like this, you need centralization. So our philosophy with building PUBG was all right, we're not going to say never on a server, we're going to say use a server if you want, don't use a server if you don't want. Either way is fine because no matter what happens to you, you can redefine it later. So if you want to use, say synonym server to host all your data and store all your photos and store all your, you know, microblogging posts or tweets or notes or whatever, then if I decide, you know what, I don't like you and you're not going to be on my server, that doesn't affect you because not only can you update your DNS records, but you can do so in a way that you, there's no loss of continuity. Like your users will just start pulling the data from somewhere else, either from you directly or a new provider. So it's just basically adding the censorship resistance, this credible exit to using servers. That's a big part of what PUB Key enables, that other alternatives don't really enable in quite the same way or at all. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I'm curious about the. Because the philosophy you were just kind of. Or the, the framing you were just laying out of, like you can't have it entirely peer to peer. And obviously there are problems with servers, but you want servers. Like there's nothing, there's nothing inherently wrong with servers, it's the fact that we end up getting trashed. [00:19:40] Speaker A: It's all servers, right? [00:19:42] Speaker B: Like it's all servers, it's all serv servers. It's a question of you want unreliable going on and off. Exactly, exactly. And so like my thinking has always been like, you don't shun servers or shun centralization. What you want is to lower the barrier of entry as, as low as possible so that you basically don't have. You, you have an infinite optionality when it comes to quote unquote servers or how you deliver or what device you lean it on and if you do have a computer that is reliable, you can easily run it yourself or you can participate. I mean, that was like one of the crazy things about like in BitTorrent history is that you'll get some random person who's just like a cedar by like he's. They're like a hoarder or something. And they'll see thousands of movies and have terabytes of data. Back when terabytes were insane. And, and they'd be huge parts of the network. Like, the network would still centralize and not, not centralized, but it would still, it would still have hotspots. You know, you still have the Pareto distribution. Like, it doesn't go away just because, you know, the idea of everybody holding the exact same amount of blob and all their own data, like that ideal just doesn't exist. Right. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Well, it's a spectrum. Right? Like in other words, like on a memetic level or some philosophical level, you could say the more copies there are of certain data, the more popular it is and the more relevant it is. Right. And so, and then the less copies of it is, the less people need it. And so data will just like replicate, you know, as much as it needs to for people to have access to it, you know, and, and the problem with say purely peer to peer is that you need the data to be very popular for tons of people to be, want to even bother being involved. Right. And so you're not going to. In other words, my Twitter, John's personal Twitter feed is not something that a bunch of peer to peer people are going to be interested in seeding for me for free. Maybe the people that follow me, maybe the people that hire me, you know, something like this. But generally speaking, that's why you only see really popular movies that are easy to find in bittorrence because it's this, this there. Nobody's going to bother seeding and all this stuff. It's just not popular data. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So the reason I point that out specifically is because we have always been basically open to discovery or what's going to work better for paradrive. Like, like I want the project to work and I don't really care how it works. Like what option. And I was curious about the DNS thing because I didn't, I didn't get a concrete answer yet. In the stuff I've dug through was the DNS entry. Is it kind of arbitrary? Is it a little bit like slash tags was before things started shifting away from that. [00:22:42] Speaker A: It's literally DNS spec. It's literally DNS. [00:22:45] Speaker B: It's literally DNS spec. Okay, okay. [00:22:48] Speaker A: Now that doesn't. Now I want to note that using something as literally DNS is just as abstract as you're worried about, though. In other words, what I mean is, yes, DNS has a spec, there's cname, a quadruple, a, you know, txt. But people use, for example, that TXT command and they'll put anything in there and they'll make their own protocols around what to do with the data in that arbitrary data, so you can encode data in there, et cetera. So you have tons of flexibility to abstract things, to use it in ways you could be more creative than just websites. For example, we have a project that we've been working on for a while, but we tabled it last year to pick it up again this year called PayKit. And this used to be called slash pay, you might remember, but we got rid of all the slash branding and it's called PayKit. And it's just basically an abstracted payment protocol for doing settlements across different payment methods. Well, we're going to update it to use pub key. So basically when you go up and. [00:23:47] Speaker B: Look up, that's literally what I was about to ask you, go and look. [00:23:50] Speaker A: Up the DNS records. What you'll find is payment endpoints. You could say, oh, I can. Here's how all the places I can page on. And that is just as simple as putting some custom information in there, pointing to a specific file on a server and saying, that's my payment endpoint file, go look in there. And you could even do this for individuals. You can say like, this is my payment endpoint file for Guy and no one else. And he'll find payment file that I want him to find there. So it's just a way of really having discovery. It's like lightning address and UMA and all these things just on steroids. It's like saying, here's the holistic way to approach payment protocol and payment settlement problems. And that's all because we have this ability to just define the endpoints dynamically and change them anytime you want. [00:24:36] Speaker B: That's cool. So, so my thinking was, you know, a text record with my lightning address or key send or even hyperswarm key, you know, for a public drive that I've got over there, like as, so that you could basically use the pub key as an abstraction layer on top of these others to kind of marry them together. So that if you were using PubKey, you could then see kind of all of them and PubKey would specifically be the one that is DNS compatible. So it would be viewable in a browser very easily. Like and that, that's, that's really the big thing that kind of got me when I was looking into or we were talking about it the first time was the fact that you'd be able to do it entirely in the browser because of how you guys have gone about making this. It is literally a new DNS. Like literally. And just a new way to deliver it and store it. And funny enough, you didn't need a blockchain. I just, I can't believe you didn't. You didn't need a name coin. [00:25:43] Speaker A: I don't even bother saying that anymore. But you're reminding me like in the first years of synonym I would say and one of our goals is to show shitcoiners they always say you need web 3 blah blah blah, that you can do all of these things, solve all of these problems about a blockchain. And, and I think that, I think we saw recently that funding for Web5 and they were trying to use ION and that was doing identity in a blockchain. And as far as I know that's gone nowhere in the past five years or so. So I think what we've done is a much more practical thing, albeit now convincing actual web browsers and operating systems to support this method would be even better. But we can work around that because mostly people are going to be using clients. So we can install what's called PKDNs or PKARR. PKAR is the actual method that we call the name of the method. Public Key Addressable Resource Records. This is our DNS thing. But yeah, we can make that work directly in client applications. So we don't necessarily need browsers themselves to support it, although it would be nice. And we have some people like hacking with pubkey already and they've shown running PKDNS locally and just putting a key in their web browser and showing a web page resolve, which is cool. Just think, okay, the way that we've designed it, the links have integrity. Like the links only break if no one has the data anymore. You know what I mean? So as long as you keep defining where your data, where you can find the files that they're looking for, then you can always be in control of those endpoints. So if you have say you know, guys, guys, key slash guys, you know, favorite photo and then somebody puts that URL in but I censored you and that photo is deleted now then all you have to do is update your new server and they'll find the same. At the same URL. Yeah. [00:27:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's awesome. [00:27:40] Speaker A: God, that's awesome. [00:27:42] Speaker B: So, so the, the thing that got me when I was playing around with it to get it installed was the. And this I guess is just because of the whole like trying to get another browser to support it is that I had to go in to get Mac to accept the new DNS or like trust it or something. And I was curious, is there a workaround with that? So this is something that I could do in Brave, like with an extension, I kind of like a one click install, let it run and it does its thing and then I can put a key into my browser and boom, I can see your, I can see Carvalho's website. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Or I would say we could make it easy to do that, but ultimately it most likely would be in the form of running a desktop application. So in other words, we can make like a little, a little small application that installed the, you know, the DNS requirements in the background and ask you for permission for whatever things you need permission for. But then you'd be running this little application in the background and at that point it's like, if you're going to force your users to run an application, why not just build the desktop, just. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Give them the application. Yeah, and we're definitely in the era of apps and stuff, so like it's not, it's not weird for, you know, that to be the case. So yeah, it makes sense. [00:28:54] Speaker A: We're just starting with the web format mostly because we know that app stores won't approve this app. You're going to be, you're going to be able to pull data from any endpoint and you're going to be able to purchase things and there's not really. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Anybody can do about it. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, there's nothing I can do about it, et cetera. Like all the only thing that synonym is going to be able to control is the data that you host with us. So we will provide, you know, when we, when we launch Pub Key app, for example, we will provide a kind of public home server that you'll be able to make an account store data on. But this is more like having a Google Drive than having a Twitter account. And so other, other providers can easily pop up and say, no, we're going to provide the data and, or you can host it yourself, for example. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah, okay, so some people still have problems with PWAs. Are you actually going to aim, are you still going to Submit it as like there's kind of like a web based app to iOS and stuff. [00:29:52] Speaker A: I don't think iOS lets you submit a PWA. [00:29:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:29:56] Speaker A: I think their web browser, the web browser and OS support some of the PWA paradigm. There's probably even some difference between what iOS and what, sorry, what Apple supports versus what Google supports. But yeah, we're actually just learning to do the PWA aspect now. Like we've made the application as a website but now the added features of a pwa like most users will just know as oh, I can put it on my desktop and it'll behave just like an app when I open it. That's really what the main aspect, the. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Main website or whatever. You just have to have them like you can prompt them to like do the button. You know, it's like right, right. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Like if you open it in your web browser. The problem is that now you're going to have like the web browser UI on top of The Pub Key UI and PubKey is a little bit like a web browser. So now you're going to have like two search bars and it just looks weird. So the idea is to like use it as a PWA so it opens in full screen. And there are also a lot of other cool little perks with PWA that we can experiment with like isolating the data from the browser. You know, there's these things called workers that have certain features. So you can't do a full application like you would a native application, but it has more features than just a website or a couple of things they give you access to in the system. So we'll try to take leverage those as we progress. [00:31:13] Speaker B: Interesting, interesting. Is it, is it even worth in your mind to have like iOS app and like submit it and go through all that? [00:31:24] Speaker A: No, not in this case because we've seen it before. I believe there was an app that did like a bitcoin ebay or something called Haven, you may remember and they were called Open Bazaar before that. And I don't. And they had their own little tricks for rendering the data and whatever. But I don't know whether they, I don't remember what flack they were given but in the end like we are going to allow people to be making accounts without Apple's intervention, buying things without Apple being able to be Apple pay being the solution. [00:32:00] Speaker B: 40% good. Yeah, it's. [00:32:04] Speaker A: And I don't want to have to integrate all that stuff anyway. It just doesn't make sense for something that's supposed to be a self Sovereign application. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Sweet. You know, as much as like I will be doing like an I.O.S. [00:32:20] Speaker A: Maybe we'd do a desktop native app that I would be open to at some point. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Okay. [00:32:25] Speaker A: If there was a good enough reason to it. Like for example, like you mentioned doing the drive. [00:32:29] Speaker B: I'm still a desktop junkie. I still love it. [00:32:31] Speaker A: I don't have any problem with desktop apps. Especially like for example if we end up we have another app called Pub keyring which is just an authentication app for it's like just the basic key management and logging in. And so that's going to be like a application, just a simple application that we're releasing. [00:32:48] Speaker B: That's the other thing. Okay. [00:32:51] Speaker A: So yeah, we will have that as a real app but you can imagine that it's supposed to have that and now people want that for desktop and then people want like a pub key drive sort of application. Well, once you have a pub key drive application and a key application, you're getting close to just making full on desktop applications. So I don't know, we'll piecemeal it for now and only make things as necessary. But if this becomes popular used by a lot of people, I'm sure you'll see many formats of applications. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Sweet, sweet. The pub keyring actually brought up a good point or put me back on my train of thought that I lost was the encryption and HTTPs and stuff is that is this literally just encrypted our connections encrypted to the pub key like during the creation or better for. [00:33:46] Speaker A: You to ask my devs the specifics of this. But what I'll say is that I know that they that last month they added TLS support and so there are okay and, and also self signed digital. I don't know. This is like out of my area of expertise to be honest. [00:34:00] Speaker B: But yeah, the certificate thing always wigs me out because like I know that's thing and I was curious how that interacted with my blanking answer is that. [00:34:08] Speaker A: Yes, we have tried to make it so you can use HTTPs and use the web as you already use it. We're trying to make assumptions that we're not going to be able to convince everybody to run native applications. We're not going to be able to convince app stores to submit apps and so we're just saying okay, people are going to use web browsers and that's going to be how they're going to access this or the most reliable way to access this. So it's gotta be as compatible as possible with web browsers. And so sweet. Yeah, it's not a specific answer to you. It's. It's my own ignorance, but I think that, you know, our developers would probably give you a much more complicated version of that answer. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Okay, now, the authentication thing is also really interesting, and one of the things that, you know, maybe this is actually a shift. I want to get your take on NOSTR and where NOSTR is right now, and where do you think it's. Because NOSTR still, in my mind, has a lot of momentum and a good network. But some of. One of the things that stuck out to me in Pub Key when I was first digging into it is that you guys have sought to tackle the things that everybody talks about. This is going to be possible with nostr, and this is where we should go with the whole web of trust and the delegation of keys and sub keys and all of this stuff. Like this kind of like, and. And, you know, easily being able to access and find anybody anywhere. But that they're still like, nascent, like, they're still kind of in like, very naive implementations of it. Whereas basically with Pub Key, that's all you guys have done. Y'all have just been like, yeah, this is the stuff. And you guys have built that, at least from. From what I've seen. I mean, the. The demonstrate the demo from the other day. I watched the one that was in. Sometime in. Towards the end of December, I think it was, with just being able to generate keys and have a new identity and just select and like go, and then you can create. So the idea that you can have like a master key that you don't actually have to, like, still having to paste master keys all over the place, like, that is really, really frustrating. I could see this. [00:36:26] Speaker A: It's not a serious. Yeah, it's not a serious approach. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I want to hear your take on kind of the state of that and what that solution is. And. Or is PubKey a replacement for it? Or is PubKey something that can solve this for NOSTR and work with it? Like. Like what's the integration in your thinking around it? [00:36:47] Speaker A: I mean, the general answer is yes, and then otherwise the nuance is going to be. It depends who you ask. But you're asking, me, right? So what I'll say is, first I'll just claim that I am somewhat ignorant to the Noster scene. [00:37:03] Speaker B: You know what I mean? [00:37:04] Speaker A: Like, I don't. I only started using it a couple months ago and mostly just for research comparison purposes. I really did not ever use it. I didn't really have much need. I, I, I, you know, people would send me a link, I could see what it is. It's basically like, you know, we, we had a bitcoin slack for a while where everybody tried to invite everybody into one slack. Then we had Bitcoin mastodon. Everybody tried to invent a bitcoin mastodon and Bitcoin Noster feels like that, you. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Know what I mean? [00:37:30] Speaker A: It feels like it's still mostly a bitcoin chat room and that's just a cultural commentary. And again, I did disclaim that I'm not like deep into the scene either on the, on the dev, in the startup level or on the user level. I just have my own superficial exposure for my own biased purposes. So, yeah, that disclaimer being repeated, I'll say. We've been working on what we, you know, this effort since before NOSTR existed. We collaborated a bit and tried to hire some of the people that ended up making nostrg. And we had a very similar strategy and plan for how to get what was formerly called what's kind of called pub key and older iteration called slash tags. You know, thinking, okay, well we can bootstrap through Bitcoiners because they know what keys are. So we've always had this plan. It's just that we didn't get rug pulled so much as, you know, somebody did it before us and did it with some success before us. But in analyzing the design of Nostr, in looking at our requirements, especially as we learn to define our own requirements better, it just didn't meet our requirements. There's too many shortcuts, there's too many excuses to keep things overly simplified to the detriment of being actual solutions. And so I think that it's amazing what they've done as a culture, as group, the gravity they created for themselves, with a little luck from, you know, hype from Jack and mistaken hype from Elon. But I think it's been great to watch. It's been a real learning experience for me as well as them. But their designs are lacking. You have to paste your key into everything. The assumptions about how they will prevent centralization and censorship are just kind of hand wavy. And some of the decisions they've made are a little bit more arbitrary than they'd like to admit. Like things like signing all the data brings just as much problems as advantages. It's just not actual a feature. Like, we could do the same thing in pubkey if we wanted, but we don't because we don't need to, because we have the key discovery method, and so we can do key delegation. We don't have to. You can have sub keys, you can have multiple accounts, et cetera. You can't do that. Like an example that came up recently was, hey, should we have a synonym nostr account? I was like, well, it would be just my account because there's no way to, like, have delegation. Like, I can't, you know, what happens if I give it to, you know, a specific person on the team and the social media guy and then he quits. Now I have to share the key with multiple people. Like, it doesn't make sense. [00:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a huge, huge limitation there. That still hasn't like. And there's like, there was like an insect bunker tool that Pablo, I think, built, and it was like the right idea, but execution was clunky. Like, I never even got it to work. For some reason it wouldn't want to connect. But that's like a perfect example of where, like, I would immediately, in thinking about what that solution would look like, I would immediately be like, I'd jump on pub key. Because, like, if I could find discovery between my devices and there's no reason why they're like, I could have something like that. Well, there is no, I could do delegation. Yeah. [00:41:03] Speaker A: So we told the nostril community about this method of using DHT as a DNS more than a year ago, I think, and they weren't very interested. And the big blocker, that's no pun intended, the big blocker there is just simply that it's a break. It would be a breaking change to. You use this method because, for my opinion, arbitrary reasons. They're using the SEC P 256 curve, which is the same curve as Bitcoin, but they're not really getting any on. Like, true, they'll tell you there's advantages and reasons that are going to do it that way, blah, blah, blah, but none of them are going to be significantly different or better than just using the ED2159 keys like we use. And those are the keys. That's the key. [00:41:50] Speaker B: What kind of keys do you all use? [00:41:52] Speaker A: Ed21559. And that's the curve that's required to do this method in mainline dht. So they would have to change the key type to be able to do this, which would break, mean all the old keys can't do this. And of course, there'd be other work in the having to make the applications check through this DNS method instead of other methods. Basically they'd have to give up some of the simplicity and some of the conveniences to have censorship resistance. And that's the choice we made. So if they wanted to, they totally could use Pub Key for as their key method. They could ignore our server, our home servers and other things that we do if they really wanted. But in the end somebody like was saying, oh, why don't you tell these, why don't you talk to the nostr devs about this? Why don't you submit a nip? And I was just like, well, they've made it clear they're not interested. So I'm not into like forcing people to do things. I'm not going to persuade or coerce them or whatever. It's like we made a thing and we're going to keep making the thing with or without them. It would be great if some of them want to join us and help us or improve on our work, but it's not a requirement and so they don't. If they want to do their own thing, fine. And they were like, well, but you should still submit a nip just so you know it's there, they know and maybe it'll work well. It's like pubkey, the whole all of pubkey is our nip for Noster. Like if you want an Oster 2.0, that's what we would say. Here's Pub Key, you know, and all the things that it entails, the applications, the social tagging, the social graph, which is stuff we haven't talked about yet, how we do indexing, all of it. Like we just. Because we had to make it all ourselves, we had to, we had to choose, make design decisions from scratch and so we could compare to our peers. We could say, here's how Blue sky is doing it, here's our Web5 is doing it, here's how Noster is doing it. But and here's the problem with all of those and can we find a, a good niche and you know, different experiment that we think is better? That's really what's important, is just to do something that other people haven't done and try to see if we can actually solve the problem because it hasn't been solved, really. [00:44:06] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, the cc, I was, I was curious about keys because I didn't understand exactly how that worked. That's. That stuff gets a little bit over my head and one of the things that like drive because I've been trying to figure, I still feel like one of the Big problems with a lot of these things is still key management in the sense of like, how do you, how do you. Without just like creating a key and making someone carry it around and stick it into things, how do you solve it so that you can have a key offline that basically controls and attests to the keys that are online. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Right? So you could leave your pub key, your master pub key, you could leave it cold if you really wanted to. Now we need, we need to make our tools more robust to make all of this, what I'm about to describe, practical. But yeah, you could, you could take your master pub key, make it cold, and then you could, you know, have delegated basically sessions with home servers. And when you make a session, you have to authenticate and you have to like, approve that session with the key. But once you have the session, it's sort of like having like, you know, when you log in a website, you have like, what's called like a token. And that keeps you logged in, right? And they keep out. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:45:20] Speaker A: And they keep that token valid until. [00:45:22] Speaker B: You clear your browser. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Right? They keep that token valid until you either clear your browser, sign in from another location. Whatever rules they want to apply to that token, they can apply. And you can do the same thing. So you can say, okay, you know, Jose no longer works here, so we need to revoke his access to, you know, the pub key Twitter account. And so now we're going to just delete that session. So when the home server wants, you know, somebody's trying to write to the home server or something with that session, it just doesn't work anymore. So now he's, he's been revoked and you can create new sessions for other people. So you could, you know, theoretically just have no issue with actually having cold identity keys and then hot sessions. [00:46:05] Speaker B: That's awesome. That is like, that's been so needed in a lot of these different things. And it also solves so much about, like, backups and like, the risk to things because, you know, when you start making these, like, key systems, you end up, you end up putting your centralization risks just in a different place, you know, like, it's still, it's under your responsibility, but you still end up, you have the same kind of insecure practices and environment and ways of interacting with a quote unquote secure interaction. But it doesn't solve the problem because you're still just, I mean, Nostra being the perfect example is I'm just sticking my keys into a bunch of different places, you know, and I Can't really, I don't really have a good way around that outside of just super limiting what I use, which is kind of my only option, you know. [00:46:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of the, you know, necessity is the mother of all invention, as they say. And that is part of the reason why I think that Nostr hasn't innovated in some of the more difficult areas to innovate or more. More I should say, maybe not even innovate, hasn't progressed into some of the more difficult areas or complex. Now I had a brain fart. What was I saying? Please edit this out because I've been having too many brain farts in podcasts. Sorry, what was the question you just said? [00:47:32] Speaker B: So I was just talking about like the basically where and how to manage keys and the fact that like they're necessarily insecure. Like even though I'm putting them, quote unquote, in my control, the interaction of like, I'm not in control, like, of like I'm just constantly going to this client and this app and like all of this stuff all over the place. That interaction and that way of working with it is still the same except now I'm having to carry my keys around and sticking them into, into all those places. So it's like there's, it's like it needed to be abstracted away. Not like in, in Noster's case, it's been moved from the central server to the user, but they needed to abstract away the interaction so that the key was to the user kind of in the physical world. And then the interface, the, the web experience, the, the device and client experience was permission or, or like you said, a token, you know, a session to, to basically give, you know, I don't have my keys hot all the time to do stuff with Bitcoin, I can do all sorts of stuff. And I think the reason transaction, why. [00:48:40] Speaker A: There hasn't been a lot of advancement in that, in the NASA area is actually incentive driven. This is what I was trying to say is that Necessity's mother in law mentioned. So if my keys were valuable to me, I would be worried about having them hot. Right? But I think that most people actually don't value their nostril accounts that much and they're not that. And they say, okay, well I only have to trust, you know, Milan and Pedro and you know, these specific people and I think I trust them enough like, you know, if they're not going to like impersonate me using my key or steal or try to hijack my key with their application and that's it. And if I lost my mouse or account, it would be easy for me to tell everybody what my new key is because we don't have a solution for that. So now everybody has a culture of, you know, looking out for when somebody has to change their key. So basically, because the keys are disposable, people treat it as disposable and people don't innovate on making them permanent. And so it's almost like these are just disposable keys. Which is why I started earlier by saying, like, it's not a serious thing, it's not a serious solution. It's just, it's just a, it's entertainment. Like people say, oh, I'll make a temporary account, I'll use it. Maybe it'll be like less temporary than I realized, but who cares? Like, I'll take the risk. It's, you know, it doesn't matter. It's not important. It's disposable, but if you want to do non disposable things, it does matter. You know what I mean? If you want to have company accounts, you want to actually have, you know, some sort of actual authority and access that these keys grant that, you know, have special permissions to special data and special features. Like you have to have all this stuff in place, you can't just ignore it. And so even in our case where we are pursuing it, there's so much more to do. Like you mentioned, like backups and keys and there's like, people aren't that good at holding keys. We only just kind of gotten people for the last 15 years or so to even consider it for real because of Bitcoin, because there's value there. These keys are not disposable, but they're not that good at it. They'll lose their seeds, they'll write them down in the wrong order, they'll have backup files, they'll lose the files, whatever it may be. So we have to keep innovating in this direction. I know, like if people use this stuff, then we can do further research for stuff like Shamir secret sharing for your backups and multisig and all these kinds of things for identities. But that's never going to happen if all you do is use disposable master keys. Right? Like you're not going to get that. Evolution. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm curious because this got me back towards, I haven't yet explored it and I'm hoping you have more knowledge about it than I do. BIP85 and using a set of keys as, you know, basically a way to generate any other sort of randomness or another set of keys or anything like that. Because essentially in the network and community that I think of Nostra, that I think is there, like this is one of the biggest things and the whole key management issue is, is far and away one of the biggest. Like I think it needs to be thought about more deeply and worked on. But it's also a high risk, low reward for anybody who's working on it is, it's very difficult. It's, you know, the, the degree of attention that one would have to put on it and cost would be really, really high. And the risk is if you get it wrong, everybody's gonna hate you. And if you get it right, it may have a really slow uptick at the same time because it needs to be very, very user friendly, which is increasingly very, very difficult at the same time. So, but my constant thinking is always like, how can I use one set of keys to generate these other keys? Like, could I, could I create this on my pub key system and create. [00:52:45] Speaker A: And this is how we did it in bitkit. In bitkit you generate like your root seed and then you generate the lightning private key and slash tag private key separately from that. And you could even say in Nosser, like you could use the same seed for the Libsec curve and then use that same seed again for the ED curve and now you've got two keys from the same seed. Like there's all kinds of things you can do, but there are trade offs and stuff that you have to be aware of. And so whenever you mess with this stuff, you need to be doing it through the lens of experienced cryptographers because you can be dangerous if you're somebody like me trying to be creative with seeds and private keys, because there are weird little situations where you could like basically expose your private key if you, if you create too many public addresses or sign too many things. And then, you know, in Nostr you're signing everything. And so I always have to go back and ask someone, oh, is this one of those situations where it matters or where it doesn't matter? And that's something you have to consider with all of this. You know, you really want an expert to be hawking. Like you mentioned bip85, like we had bitkit audited and that derivation stuff audited and we have our spec, our derivation spec'd and so you can do things like that. But I'll be honest, what I've kind of Learned since doing things like that is there's not a lot of need for it. You really can just use one seed in a lot of cases. And yeah, you can derive things from other keys and such. But like in the end, if you have proper abstraction, like for example, like with these sessions, for example, like you don't, you just don't need as many keys keys and you don't need more and more seeds for everything. Sometimes you just need be able to find data somewhere. And one seed, one key, one public key is often good enough for that. And so I don't want to say that these are a waste of time so much as another challenge with the incentives of working on it, in addition to the cost and the risk and the expertise is just the necessity. Until you have a lot of users that this will solve a lot of problems for, it just can't be a high priority. And while synonym is trying to do a lot at once, we also are very serious about prioritizing things to be as practical as possible. So we're not going to build third stage solutions for something that, where people haven't started using the first stage yet. [00:55:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, okay. Now it's difficult to wrap my head around kind of the experience of this, but obviously I, I see its potential. I just, it's like one of those things where it changes the way that fundamentally things work. So it's like difficult to pinpoint exactly how it will apply until you're actually using it, until you actually kind of have it like as a tool in your hand. And this is the whole social graph and the web of trust and the tagging and all of this stuff, this, all of this that you've kind of built right into pubkey from the outset. And I want you to give me your rundown on the mental model for these and how you see these interacting. [00:55:58] Speaker A: So I like when you put it that way, because I use the word mental model a lot and it's very much how I think. I can't put something in my brain without putting it in the place of my mental model. And that's what makes it so easy for me to see when something doesn't fit, because it's like, like, well, if I listen to what you're saying and I put that into my mental model, everything's broken. So you're going to have to explain this to me and convince me because I don't want to break 50 other things just to accept your idea. [00:56:26] Speaker B: I know exactly what you're talking about. [00:56:29] Speaker A: But the mental model or the Kind of idea behind social tagging and what we're calling the semantic social graphs is goes back. This is like the oldest of all the ideas in synonym. This is something I've been working on since before bitcoin. I told this story in the past and other podcasts, so I forgive people for if they have to hear it again. But back before bitcoin, I had a marketing company and I was a huge fan of Google. It was like the. These were like the golden years of Google where everybody wanted to work there. It was like, like allure. You know, there was the lore of like, what it was like to do a job interview. Yeah. And like what it was like to work there with like ping pong tables and you know what I mean? Like, everything was just so hype. [00:57:17] Speaker B: They have arcade games in the lobby, man. [00:57:20] Speaker A: But I'm not an engineer. I've never been one. I'm not a dev. I have some very little programming experience. And then I quit those classes and so I was like, all right, man, you love Google, but you're like. And I was like one of the. I bought one of like the first Google class, you know, saying it's just like, I was like an enthusiast, the max. And I was like, you're never going to get a job there because you're not an engineer. And so I thought, okay, like, what would the non engineer do to get a job there? And I was like, well, I'll. What I'll do is I'll invent a Google killer and then I'll show them that here's how I could kill Google. So you should hire me. And a lot of the ideas of that have actually come true through Google naturally. And basically back then there was no. There was no. There might have been an images tab, but there was no news tab, no shopping tab. There wasn't a tab for all these different categories of data. It was just search returns. And the idea that I had back then was I was building websites for small businesses was one of the things that we were doing. And I had to deal a lot with SEO. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, having to guess what the spec of what Google wants is only because they're worried about people gaming the spec. It's like, we don't want you to know how we sort the data because then you're going to give us data the way we want it. It's like the whole thing was just like such a mind for me that I just like, it just drove me crazy that I had to go to all these obscure gray hat, white hat, black hat, SEO SEM websites. The whole thing was just so ridiculous. And then they kept changing it. They had, first they did it a certain way, then they did pain, drink. [00:58:59] Speaker B: And then change it. Because people figure it out. [00:59:02] Speaker A: Right? Right. And it just, I thought to myself, you know, it should just be the opposite. It should just be, they should totally publish everything and they should just let the people decide what to see. And they, the people should be able to choose. Do I want to see only images, do I want to see only PDFs, do I want to see only, you know, shopping, whatever it may be, but also by semantics like I only want to see things that are tagged certain ways, et cetera. So basically just taking all of the parameters of an algorithm to where Google is trying to infer what you want to see and then show it to you, and instead just literally letting the user configure those things and tell Google what to show them. Like a research mode or something like this. You could never really do research in the way you wanted to without all these types of filters and basically your own ability to wait saying things in the algorithm. And you can't weight things, you can't sort things, you can't filter things about some form of semantics and some form of indexing. And so, you know, fast forward to today from back then. That idea always stuck with me. And it's always been an underlying aspect of what we're doing with synonym and the concept of what I wanted to do when we got to the point of kind of fixing the web. And so now you combine these ideas with some of. You may have heard of the semantics Web, the Semantic Web was the original Web3 concept. Before we had ShitCoin Web3, we had the Semantic Web Web3, which is a concept that was kind of, you know, discussed and tried to make solutions for by some of the elders of the Internet, you know, inventors and respected people. And it never came to be. It kind of turned into this kind of. I don't know if your audience is familiar with the Xanadu project, but that's another rabbit hole you should check out. It kind of became Xanadu thing where nobody, nobody could really do it. It was like an endless project that would never ship. It's just impossible to actually get it to work in a practical way. Well, I'm picking up the torch on that. So the idea is that now that we have this capability for people to define who they are in a self sovereign way, that they define the data they Define things and they represent themselves. The key. You can do everything in an inherently kind of signed way without actually signing everything. You can do everything in a kind of inverted way where instead of say, asking, synonym to show you a feed that is what we think is the best feed for you, based off of inferring how long you looked at something and what you clicked on and blah, blah, blah, you do it, you do it and then you do it combined with the other people in your social graph that you want to include. And so the idea is that instead of asking Google, what you're doing is you're saying everybody is tagging everything all the time. They're tagging other keys, tagging other people, and they're tagging other URLs, basically files, posts, whatever it may be, any type of data you would find in Google or on the web. And they're tagging these things as a curation method, as a review method, as a just a semantic method of just saying this has to do with this idea. And so I could tag you as bitcoiner, I could tag you as podcaster, I could tag you as Where's Glasses? Whatever I want to, I can tag you in these ways. And then when people are basically filtering the graph, so you think of the web as just all of the URLs that are inside of an index, because that's ultimately what you have to compile it to. It's just one index. That index is a graph. And the way that edges, basically the way things connect on the graph is through semantics. And so basically when I tag, you know, you, then that creates a connection between you and I on the graph. If I follow you, whatever, then I now you're part of my, my friends, you know what I mean? You're in my inner circle. And so when in Pub Key app, there are basically tools to make it easy as possible for people. Instead of zapping, instead of liking, instead of upvoting, they just put anything they want. And so if you want there to be a heart button, you just leave a heart emoji as a tag and then other people can click that button and add heart emojis to it too. If you want to add a bitcoin tag, you can type the word bitcoin, or you can put in the bitcoin symbol, or you can type btc, it doesn't matter. You just put whatever you want and other people can pile on and add that tag as well. And so it makes it really only the first tagger has any effort at all. And Then there are other people are just clicking which tags they agree with about that post. And so when you, and so instead of doing a search, what you actually do is you're taking a perspective on the graph. You're saying, show me all the graph data. From this view. Yeah, from this view. And, well, it's more than a filter because you also. Well, it is a filter, but you're looking outward by. Somewhere on the ground by weight. Yeah. So it's, you're looking at all the things that you can see, and so you can't see everything. And you are. And you want to filter down everything from what we would call the fire hose, like, all the data and organize it into something that's a usable stream. But you create the streams. We don't create the streams. You create them. You say, okay, I'm gonna. All people that I tagged bitcoin and all posts that they have that are tagged, I don't know, podcasts. I'm going to make a feed and call it Bitcoin Podcasts, and I'm going to look at that feed just to see if there are ever any things that are trending as new bitcoin podcasts among my friends. So you can do distance as well. You could say, my friends, my friends, friends, my friends, friends, friends. If you want to keep extending out the network. [01:04:46] Speaker B: Six degrees of Kevin Bacon. [01:04:49] Speaker A: Right. Well, you know, I, I, I heard that there's a study that shows that since Facebook on the Internet, there's only three and a half degrees between any people. And so we're super connected online. So it shouldn't be too difficult to create these relative networks of webs of trust or semantic graphs, social graphs, with the people that are relevant to you. And so it's kind of like a relevance system. It's like instead of search, you're just trying to match things, match people with the data they're looking for, with the people they're looking for through the people they trust. This is the foundation of when I say replacing Big State. So Big State provides regulation. Like, the only thing you can't supplement digitally is violence. You know what I mean? There's no way to actually have physicality in the digital realm. You can have physical consequences. In other words, I can have a drone that goes and finds you, and I can instigate things digitally. But that's the only thing you can't solve. But you can solve governance. You could have any sort of consensus that you want to achieve anything like this could be done through social graphs. And so that's what we're trying to show is how to digitize trust in a way that gives the user a way to actually wield it and apply it to what they're doing. [01:06:02] Speaker B: If you want to save in better money and you want 20,000 sats for free, right now it's about 20 bucks at $100,000 of bitcoin check out Fold. Every time I swipe this card, I get, get 0.5%, sometimes one, sometimes even one and a half percent. I can get two, three, five, even 10% on gift cards with major merchants. Between the roundups, the gift cards, the auto stacking, the sats back on every single swipe fold literally does all of the work for me. And it is denominated in bitcoin. And I have more savings just by using this card than like 90, 90% of the United States normal consumer. I've got a referral link for you right here. Shout out to fold. For sponsoring my work and honestly being the most important service for my being on a bitcoin standard, that's really interesting like, because from my perspective, where I immediately want this is in sorting out like, like the number of times that I lose stuff. Stuff or I can't go back and find like, like I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out my own tagging system just to, just to sort through stuff that I've saved. And that's been my biggest thing about social media is that I save stuff constantly. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah. The funny thing is, like, people say to me, oh, people are never going to do this. It's too much work. It's too much mental load. I'm like, you already do it. Browse it. Right now I have about 12 different tab groups, each one with at least five to 20 tabs inside of it, each one with a label colored. You know what I mean? Like, and they're all categorized. Like, we're sorting. All we're doing is trying to take the noise of the Internet and filter it down to something that interests us or entertains us or solves our problems. [01:07:53] Speaker B: And having a universal way that's, that's really the big thing is that if, if this could be made useful personally, you know, like, if I can make it useful to me just in the way you were just talking about your tab groups, right? Is that if that was provided as some sort of a tagging system through pub key or within a pub key environment so that you could get to that later so that you could find those things. And like, this is something that I could use to sort my information and then other people can simply leverage that which I've built for myself. So my question then is where do the tags live? Exactly. [01:08:35] Speaker A: So all the data lives on a home server. So instead of, I don't know how much of your audience is familiar with noster or different formats, but instead of having a bunch of miscellaneous relays or servers that might have your data or have some of your data or whatever in pubkey, there is a primary home server. So when you, you know, the convention, at least we can't force people to have only one. You know, people can have as many as they want. But the convention that we use within our applications is to assume that there is a home server. And so when I go and look up your key in the dht, I'm looking for your, the, the server where I'm going to find all your data. And then that way, you know, yes, we could define fallback servers, things like this, but they should be mirrors, they should be redundant, they should not be the actual, you know, main server that is the provider. You need a main provider. And so because of that assumption, you can always assume and you can say, okay, like this is, this is the server, this is where I go to find the data. This is where I would find your payment endpoints, your contacts, whatever data you're looking for. That fully answers your question. [01:09:44] Speaker B: Gotcha. Okay, so in that instance, how does that relate to the IDs and the sessions? And the sub key thing that I saw in the demo is so the. [01:09:56] Speaker A: Session is with the home server, right? So in other words, it's just like a normal web server. If, if you're logged in, if you're authenticated into the home server, you will get a session with that home server. And so now you can write to that home server or whatever permissions that home server is providing you for that token, you may have more limited permissions. It all depends on how robust we make it and how much people use this stuff. The more tools will make for managing permissions, access control, et cetera. But ultimately it's a centralized server. So when you run it yourself, you'll control everything. You decide who can read what, whether you can put any kind of rules on that you want to. When you use, say, synonyms, home server, we decide what the rules are. And so, for example, in order to legally provide a server out to third parties, you have to be regulated. And so we have to moderate. And so we have to look for csam, you know, objectionable, not objectionable, illegal content and we have to remove it or at least not provide access to it directly from, from ourselves. And so that's the only, so we have to do that. And so if you don't like that, then you have to find somebody else to host it that will do that for you or you have to host it yourself. This is just how the web works. But yeah, so your, your home server is just where you would find the data for your tag. But remember, we, we, this is all a social graph. So in the end you're going to need at least one indexer or multiple indexers. You're probably not. End users are probably not going to want to be indexing things themselves. You don't want to, most people don't run their own web crawlers and these kinds of things. Right, so synonym will also run an indexer. But again our indexer is going to be subjective to our biases, what we want to appear in there. And so if we censor things, in other words, the host always has the power to sensor whether you host the indexer, you host the server. And so if you don't want to be censored, you got to host it yourself. It's peer to peer. Right. But if you do get censored in our system, you have alternatives, right? You have credible exit. So yeah, the tags are ultimately stored as items in your data, but the indexer is what's actually compiling all these things together in a way that you can use it. Serving these views for you. [01:12:15] Speaker B: Is an indexer, so to speak, part of the stack in the, in the sense that like, could I run my own indexer just by downloading PKDNs and PubKey, like all the, well, no pub key. [01:12:28] Speaker A: Could you run your own? Yes. Is it practical at the moment? Not really. Was there any reason to do it? Well, only if you wanted to run your own instance of the whole pub key stack. In other words, you wanted to provide pub key app to people as competitor to us, then you would be, you'd be incentivized to do that because you'd want to have control of your own indexer. You wouldn't have to. You could actually run your own instance of PubKey app and just use our indexer if you really wanted to. But again you would be subject to our rules, not your own rules. Does that make sense? [01:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:13:00] Speaker A: So as far as like running the whole stack, I wouldn't say it's practical for anybody to run as many indexers as you would want or any of that kind of thing. Like what we're trying to show, what we're trying to demonstrate first is just one instance of everything in a hosted instance of everything. So because that's what most people will use, most people are not going to host things themselves. Most people are going to trust. And we're just trying to say here, you can trust us more safely than you could in other situations. [01:13:27] Speaker B: Gotcha. Gotcha. Oh, man. Did I miss anything else specifically in regards to pub key that I should know about in relation to kind of the direction that I've been attacking these things from? Because I, I'm looking to start playing with this, but I know like, that's just not available yet. There's. You're. You're going to have a private beta soon, is that right? [01:13:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Where we plan on finishing up the internal testing this month and then probably the first or second week of February at the latest, beginning the private beta. The private beta, I don't know how long it will last. It depends on how, how much it crashes, I guess, or how bad it goes. But I think it will go pretty good and. [01:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll break it. [01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the idea from the private beta. Then we'll probably go into an invite code mode where the people that were in the private beta will be able to invite people. This is partly for legal reasons. We can't go fully public, make it public accessible until we have all of the moderation features that legal requires. So until we know we can cover our ass for providing a server, we can't provide the server publicly. But that's another project that we've begun this month as well. I just don't know it's going to be a decent amount of work. So it might be March before we do a public beta would be a guess. [01:14:54] Speaker B: Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. [01:14:57] Speaker A: But all the code is already open source. Everything except for Pub Key app. So you can run. [01:15:01] Speaker B: Okay. [01:15:01] Speaker A: Pkd. [01:15:02] Speaker B: Okay, so it's just private. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah, even the indexer is open, but there's nothing, nothing to point the indexer at at the moment because PubKey app isn't open yet. But all aspects of Pub Key are in the open right now except for Pub Key app. That's only because it's not, it's. It's broken and we don't want people to use it yet. But as soon as we have a first usable version of it, that will be public too. [01:15:25] Speaker B: How are connections made? Okay, so let's say, let's say right now I wanted to do host myself my own personal website on my Linux machine and then get access to it from my laptop or something far away. Do I still have to port forward in that instance or does the DHT get around that? [01:15:44] Speaker A: You'd have to devs I. Generally speaking you'd have to be running some sort of. Or trusting running or trusting some sort of PKDNS resolver. Right. You need something to resolve that DNS for you. If you're going to do it yourself then that means you need to be running PKDNS or some equivalent implementation of it on that device. So you would need to be running it is my, you know, some somewhat of a guess but yeah, if you want to do it self sovereignly they're also, I think they also were talking about doing DNS over HTTPs was another thing they're doing. I'm a little bit behind because I've been. I was, I was really sick for a week or two and then I also had a vacation and so I'm still playing catch up but yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:16:32] Speaker B: Oh sweet. [01:16:33] Speaker A: Okay, I would encourage you to join. We have, we're having. I don't know if we're going to do it monthly but we have a public dev call so I'd encourage you to join that or, or chat. [01:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah watch the recorded one for the last one. When's the next one do you know. [01:16:48] Speaker A: Off top of your hand? Probably the end of the month depending on if something else disrupts that. But yeah, well I'll put it in. [01:16:54] Speaker B: The show notes and I'll also put the group that we're in the. Is it just pub key? Just pub key and then there's pubkey Core. [01:17:02] Speaker A: I think the, the, the app group is called get pubkey or pubkey App. I'll look at it right now and then the coding, you know the dev group is called pubkey Core. [01:17:11] Speaker B: Okay. Okay, cool. All right. Yeah I'll have that in the show notes too if anybody else is checking out or wants to. [01:17:17] Speaker A: So for PubKey app, if you want general PubKey topics, it's PubKey chat is the name of the room in Telegram and then it's PubKey Core for devs. [01:17:27] Speaker B: Sweet. Okay, so what do you see as kind of the first because, because I have my own I guess bias or I have my own like okay, how would I use this or how do I think about like where I could plug this into or make use of this in Pear Drive or could this marry with Nostr in some way? Like that's most of my framing for how to utilize this either now or like, you know, very early on is. And then also sorting out and tagging and organizing my own data, which is a huge challenge that drives me crazy. But how do you see kind of the first layer interaction with this, like when Pub Key app comes out, do you see it mostly as a kind of social interaction tool? Because BitKit is like one of the coolest things about BitKit was always the contact list to me is that I could just add a contact and then I could pay them later. I could do. You know, it was just, it was just there and I didn't. It wasn't attached to anything else. And peer to peer was just like that. [01:18:41] Speaker A: Just. [01:18:41] Speaker B: It's cool. I own a contact list, you know, like, it's just weird because I don't really in most other environments. But in that instance, like, what's the first thing for Pub Key and. Or how does it interact with BitKit or will BitKit change to interact with it, that sort of thing. [01:19:00] Speaker A: Like I said earlier, you kind of have to start with foundational stuff first and then build it on top of that. And you mentioned, you know, what's the first layer? So I think that there's. That calling things social media is a bit of a meme at this point that like a lot of things we call social media are just everything social. When people are interacting on the web. Web, you know what I mean? Like is. Is the chat at the bottom of a blog? Is that social media? Are. Is Reddit social media is, you know, is Instagram social media? Like there's all these variations of how people are interacting in different platforms and then people just calling them all social media. Well, I think the web is social media, you know what I mean? Like, like anything that more than one people are, it's. It's a network. You're connecting peers. Like, like it's all social. I think that social media, the original name, was more meant to be that it was casual and it was socializing. But nobody socializes on the web anymore. It's like you go on Twitter to argue, to get news, to get feedback. You know, it's not socializing. It's not like, hey, you know, I'm looking for somebody to have lunch with. What's up? Who's hanging out? Yeah. What do you think about my page? Not a lot of us doing. Some of it is that, you know, there are very casual users, but mostly not people are pretty intensively using this thing we're calling social media. So this is like my disclaimer because, yes, Pubkey app is going to look very much like a social media app. It's going to look very much like an Oster app. Well, in my opinion, it'll look a lot better because we're really focused on making. Well, we do have, you know, we are the cathedral and Nasser is the bizarre. Right. Like, they have the advantage of chaos and quantity and mutation. We have the advantage of planning, organization, you know, dedicated funding, dedicated roles, like, and we're leaning into that. We're just trying to say, like, let's try to figure out how to do this in the way that we would do it. [01:21:04] Speaker B: Read that book again. It's been a while. Reminded me we started somewhere. [01:21:10] Speaker A: I forgot where we started. [01:21:13] Speaker B: Just talking about, like, what's the interaction going to be? The first layer and kind of the first thing and then bitkit relationship. [01:21:21] Speaker A: Right. So at first there's going to be a lot of separation between BitKit and PubKey, but eventually total integration. The reason is that we're currently rewriting bitkit. We wrote it in React native and we use that for both iOS and Android, but we're writing each one into native applications for each platform. And so that's a very long process, takes a lot of work. And so we don't want to put too many things in BitKit until that's done because it'll have to be done again in the new apps twice. So bitkit is featured kind of not in a feature freeze. We're probably going to be integrating bit refill soon. But I'm sorry, BitKit is only going to get a few features over the next three to six months. We're just going to try to keep it stable, trying to promote it, you know, to get to more users. But then after Pubkey and BitKit reached certain stages, then we will begin integration of them. And so the first layer is just going to be using Pub. The first impression, the first stage is just going to be people using Pub Key, much like you might use a Noster application. With some notable differences like the social tagging, the social graphing, the design approaches were kind of rethinking everything as far as, like how we would present this to people. Because I do want people to feel like, okay, this is like Google, except it's like X. You know what I mean? It's like if Google was inside X and X wasn't just about interacting, it was about tagging, you know, a link to a news article or tagging a file. It's more like, you know, it includes the Google aspect as well as the social media aspect and just combines them. And so that's, that's how I would picture. I would say it's like, what if Google and X were the same thing? And that's kind of what we have here. So it's like a publishing platform, a search platform and a social platform. But that's all just the first stage. Because where I actually want to go with this is to make all of the different types of posts and interactions in Pub Key app monetizable and monetizable in more than one way. You may remember I did that the biz, the Biz Pro podcast and I had the crowd walls like I want to have, I want to bring that, bring that back as a, as a monetization option as well as typical monetizations. And so that was really fun. [01:23:46] Speaker B: That was a. That was a super neat idea. [01:23:49] Speaker A: The end game is that users will choose different monetization methods for different post types. And so you'll have multiple post types. And eventually this is just like now it's like, okay, what if Google was inside of Twitter? Well, what if everything on Google could have a price tag on it or a monetization button or buy button or unlock button or whatever it may be. Any of the ways you could think of that you would want to have E Commerce. You can now combine that, like Google Shopping section, for example, or these kinds of things. So it's like we really are trying to cover a wide scope here. We have to do the kind of social media stuff first because that's requirements that are part of doing the E commerce stuff. And what we want is to make it so people can have their own economy. Whether the government wants to censor them, whether synonym wants to censor them. It doesn't matter that as long as somebody's willing to host your data that you're going to be able to connect with the people you're looking for and do commerce with them. [01:24:48] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's awesome. So for anybody who doesn't know, the Biz podcast that he was talking about was really cool. The focus was all specific people in business. You were talking with them very deliberately about how to build, how to execute things in entrepreneurship. Basically, like, it was, it was a much more focused rather than like kind of a general conversation, from what I remember. And what you had was you would have it like you have to pay a million SATs, which, which I think was like a hundred dollars at the time to unlock the next episode and anybody could contribute to it. So I could go up There and I could throw 10,000 sats and then somebody else throws 50,000 sats and somebody else throws 21 sats and when it hits, hits a million sats, it unlocks. And now everybody can listen to the episode. Right? And it was just, it was a really interesting and unique thing. At the time, I had not seen anybody else do that specifically because there's. Everybody was looking for like a new monetization method and you know, like zaps. [01:25:56] Speaker A: And yeah, the community ultimately settled on the Value for Value meme and the zaps meme. I don't think. I think all zaps is, is just tipping reborn. I don't think tipping is a solution. I think it's a feature, but I don't think it's like going to change the way social media works or I actually think that tipping information on posts is not that valuable. It's not worthless, but it's certainly not as valuable as like a semantic tag where you can literally explain how you feel about it. You know what I mean? So, yeah, anyway, I think it's actually. [01:26:31] Speaker B: A combination is, I think attaching the, the, the literal value to it. And in fact there could be interesting an amount of like. So maybe this, this is actually leads me to a question. So in pub key, like, let's say I'm following 20 people and you, I get something through you or whatever and you tag it as a podcast and then I look at it and it's a Rick roll video and I'm like, oh, you son of a bitch. And like, so can I like, like negative tag. It's as a podcast so that it doesn't show up in my podcast. And well, based on, depends on your. [01:27:11] Speaker A: Definition of a negative. Right? Like, for example, you could say, you know, bad tagger or scammer. Or in other words, you could give me any affirmative tag that meant something negative. And that's one way you could do it is just designate me more accurately. You could also remove tags from me. So if you had tagged me as, you know, bitcoiner or, you know, critic trustworthy. Right, right. And you could remove those tags. But I think what you're getting at, which is currently not a feature but a planned feature, is weighting. And so yes, you would want to also be able to add a weighting to a tag and be able to say like, how much that tag matters. Just for example, like if you were looking, say you were filtering a view of a feed and you're saying, okay, I want this feed to include people that I've tagged as bitcoiners and posts that are tagged as bitcoin, well, you might say, oh, and then also posts that are targeted as bitcoin mining, you might say, well, what I actually care about is the bitcoin mining. So I'm going to weight that, you know, fully and I'm going to kind of de weight, you know, other bitcoin tags that I might want still included. And so this way it would, you know, change the weighting of things and how much frequency of that data you see of that type. And so weighting is a bit more tricky because weighting is something you hope to find a way to infer because you don't want people literally trying to like, all right, I have to tag a thing and I have to decide a weight for every single tag that I make. It gets impractical. [01:28:39] Speaker B: Right. [01:28:39] Speaker A: And so you more of this can be inferred through your social graph of your connections. Right. So for example, people you follow have one kind of degree of connection with you. If they follow you back now, they kind of have another degree. They're friends. Right. And then the people they follow have another degree and the people those people follow have another degree so that the distancing acts almost sufficiently enough as a weighting. But I do agree that it would be interesting and useful to actually have waiting capability, especially if you're really trying to like curate things in a very specific way. [01:29:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Now I'll say something about the zapping thing because when money is integrated in this and you have a way to pay and do commerce and stuff is I actually think, I mean, I totally agree with you. Zapping is just tips, tips with a new brand. But what's interesting about it to me is very similar to what we see with technology in general is when is models change. When you open up a open up access to something to 100 times as many people. And the. So like the idea of YouTube wasn't like some profound change in the quality of production. It was about the fact that if you didn't like, nobody was going to defeat Hollywood with YouTube. But now there's this entire market below Hollywood that didn't exist prior to YouTube existing. Because now I can make a 15 second video and somebody can watch it. [01:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I would reframe that a bit though. I would say that YouTube and similar things were inevitable. [01:30:20] Speaker B: Right. [01:30:20] Speaker A: Like we were always going to want open marketplace where we could find all the videos sorted and searchable and et cetera. We're always going to need. [01:30:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:30:30] Speaker A: I don't I don't think that argument carries to tipping. I think that tipping is just, it's just a feature. In other words, it's not. The problem with tipping is that you can't dedupe it for, you know, just richness. In other words, somebody can just tip something to oblivion. And now instead what you've got to do is revert to using tagging to de. Weight that, that tipping. And so unless all you care about. In other words, if the way you want. Is there any situation in life where the way you choose to make a decision is based off of how much money that entity has earned? Right. Maybe if you invest in it, you care about that. Maybe. You know what I mean? Like, but as far as like your feeds, do you actually think that that's a good signal? Would you, do you. How often do you use sort by tips other than as a curiosity? Like, is that actually how you look at your feed? Do you sort it by tips? I doubt it. Maybe you click on it once in a while. [01:31:27] Speaker B: I think about it as like most active or most liked. And this, this is actually my argument too is, is because. Because what I was saying as, as far as my argument wasn't, I hadn't actually kind of closed the loop is my point is that the, the thing about quote unquote value for value or tipping online that is actually profound is the fact that I tip things and I zap things that I never ever in a million years would have prior to how I interact with Noster. [01:32:03] Speaker A: Well, the question is more how does that help other people? How does it help the third party? [01:32:08] Speaker B: How does it help a third party? Just because they see what I like more than like, you know, if I like something, I can like it. But if I like something, that's crap. Excuse me, If I like something that I like sort of like versus something that I really, really like. Like, there's there's a, it's kind of like a weight. [01:32:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I almost, I almost use it more as a negative indicator. Like, if I see like, like, you know, like Odell tipping 22, 22 sats to his buddies or the companies he's invested in and their CEOs, it's just like, okay, man, I get it. Cool. Like, and if I, if somebody did that to me, like, they would probably do be doing like to troll me or something because I made fun of zaps, you know, like, it's, there's all this, like, it's, it's mostly about or whatever, you know. [01:32:55] Speaker B: But like, but that's kind of the thing though is that like I do see it as another social layer. [01:33:01] Speaker A: It's a signal. I just don't know. I think that when you actually compare the signal to something like semantic tagging or social graphs or whatever, you're going to realize that it's one of the worst signals that of your. Of your options because it's gamble. Right. Like somebody can just put more money. They can be. You can fake identities. Like you end up. All of the actual useful filtering you do is going to be done by your trust them, not by the money. [01:33:25] Speaker B: No, 100% it is. It is based on who I trust. That is zapping. [01:33:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:30] Speaker B: You know, like, like you, you give an example of Odell. Is that like. Yeah, like that's because you think you have, you. You have an idea of what Ozel's motives or like your trust with him changes your weight on the zap. Same, same. Same thing would go. Is that like if somebody trusts or what they think about my zapping? Like I wouldn't just like trust. Oh, this has like a million zaps. If it's like a whole bunch of people that I don't know, I wouldn't have a relationship to that like it would be. It would be meaningless like you say. [01:33:58] Speaker A: But I. My argument is simply that Odell tagging great idea or you have my support or good job bro or best company. Him actually giving any context is just as valuable, if not more than whatever that tip was to the third party. [01:34:16] Speaker B: And it usually comes with a repost anyway. [01:34:20] Speaker A: And then if we talk about the receiving party. Well, I think you as a podcaster, I'm hoping would admit that you would not be able to do what you are doing through tipping. You need actual sponsorships, actual sources of income, and that the tipping maybe at best is like a nice surprising bonus once in a while. And that's going to be true at every level. You know, the only level that's not true is maybe like if you're in a really, really poor country and you could use this as a way to kind of climb out that I could see maybe me not having the best argument against, you know, if, if somebody tipping on Noster is receiving, you know, receiving $3 of noster ships is meaningful to them, I can't really fault that. But you could. I'm not saying that this feature shouldn't exist. I'm saying we just should be careful putting so much weight and so much betting so much on that feature because that feature has come and gone like five times in my bitcoin life. And I've seen it like people hype it up, people fund the startups, the startups do the best they can for one or two years and eventually they disappear. And I think the same thing will happen again for anyone that loses too much on tipping. [01:35:32] Speaker B: Yeah, and there's, there's definitely a kernel of truth there and but the, the frictionless like nature of money is just really interesting because the tips, well it's all trusted. [01:35:47] Speaker A: Right. That's why it's frictionless. [01:35:50] Speaker B: I mean sure, sure, but it's one of those things lower the barrier to entry is what optionality does the user have? Is everybody having, is everybody having to use the nostr wallet or is everybody using whichever wallet they choose? You know, like, like, like in, in that sense like, like you know BitKit, I could use BitKit to pay a lightning invoice easily. So in that, in that same sense the, it has opened itself into this new space and it is definitely more meaningful than it has ever been. And the network and community is still very small. So my I, it makes me wonder on a long enough, if the trend stays and on a long enough timeline how does it change things for small to medium sized kind of personalities or like, like just like businesses and operations, you know, does it open up a new flow of funds that actually becomes meaningful when you're smaller? Which has, which I think is a critical part of how technology decent continues to decentralize things against kind of the tendency to centralize is when you drop the barrier. What you end up doing is making it easier to climb the rung, so to speak. The technology makes the next rung easier. [01:37:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not going to argue that conceptually. I'll just say that in practice it just doesn't really pan out that way in my opinion. I think that like we already said like the main people that would be able to carry themselves out of a financial situation using zapping or tipping are going to be pretty poor. But that doesn't mean it's not true. Right? So it is definitely possible and it also, but it also doesn't mean it's. [01:37:39] Speaker B: I think the whole idea is that you need to provide value that you can sell anyway. It's like somebody, right? And so like you know, is there. [01:37:45] Speaker A: A big difference between like you know, somebody getting a lot of good attention than saying I need you to pay me, you know, 50 cents a month for a subscription or tipping them, Is there a big difference between them selling one thing per month instead of tipping? You know, like does the Differences are pretty small. And then the tipping is all facilitated for the most part, through trusted, censorable means. And so the issue, again with giving the poor these ways to bootstrap themselves is that oftentimes it comes with huge risks of rug pulls and, you know, trust. And for example, like most zaps are done in a very trusted way. It wouldn't really be that practical to do it. Most individual zaps are totally trusted because they're just such small transactions. And the whole thing, if the whole thing is trusted and we're trying to do this across the social graph, why are we using Bitcoin in the first place? Like, why are we even pretending to use Bitcoin in the first place? Why don't we just use like a mutual credit system or something like this? I am intentionally using this as a segue because that's something that we want. [01:38:54] Speaker B: I was about to ask. [01:38:58] Speaker A: So I can, I can keep complaining or whatever, but it's not that I don't have a suggestion, it's just that I don't know if we should talk about it because it's still very, very early. [01:39:09] Speaker B: So there's obviously a reason why it uses Bitcoin as opposed to fiat, because fiat, like, they won't give permission to do this. Like you, you can't. Like, integration in this sort of way is just like nightmarish. [01:39:25] Speaker A: Well, the platforms could denominate it in anything. Right. The actual settlement sure matters. [01:39:30] Speaker B: I mean, I was about. Yeah, I'm meaning like through, like the idea of me trying to set up Square or PayPal, like through all of this stuff versus just getting some zaps and then shooting it to my Lightning Wallet is, I mean, could not be more nightmare. [01:39:48] Speaker A: I think what everybody's missing is the reason that PayPal doesn't do this is not because they didn't think of it. The reason they don't do it is because it costs too much. And it's not practical that the tips are not worth it, that supporting those users is not worth it. All of it is cost. The users that these are like users with not a lot of money that are going to complain if they have a problem. And now you're having support tickets for like 5 cent zaps and things like this, which is like a nightmare, especially if it happens at any sort of percentage of scale. It's all trusted. So it's like all of this stuff comes because you're suspending reality. And the reason why we don't have nano transactions and microtransactions is because they're literally not worth it. They just cost too much mental load, they cost too much cpu, too much storage, too much trust, whatever it may be. They're just not actually, actually worth it. And so I would approach the problem totally holistically and say, okay, if what people actually want is to trust each other in some way, to have small amounts, then we should give them that. Like we should make an intentional system that lets them do that. And this is a recurring problem because they want to do it with zaps, they want to do it with lightning, they want to do it with. What else is custodial right now it's in practical, tactical, I don't know, they want to do nano transactions. [01:41:07] Speaker B: E cash. [01:41:08] Speaker A: Pretty much, yeah. With eca. Well, E cash is a closer thing to what I'm talking about. [01:41:13] Speaker B: Closer to credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:41:15] Speaker A: Well, it is. It's just that I think Ecash is also suffering a bias of Bitcoin as well. Like it just doesn't need to be a bitcoin thing, it just needs to be a credit thing. You do not let the users decide what to denominate it in. It doesn't matter. It's credit. Like, there should be no limitation to it. It's just data in a field. It's not actual money. And so the settlement should be separate from the payment, if that makes sense. And so that's why we have. That's why we're building PayKit and why later this year we're going to do a proof of concept for something called Atomicity, which is basically a successor to the idea that we had with PEAR Credit. I don't know if Pear Credit is dead or not, but. But I don't think it's worked on and we aren't the team that would be working on it because we don't have the qualifications. And so it requires basically the hole punch team to work on it. And I think they have a lot of other work to do before this I'm speaking. All I know is that I revisited the idea and I still need it in my atomic economy vision. I still need a solution for trusted credit. And I think that we figured out a design that fits our system better than having to rely on append logs and like this fractal append log system that we had for Paradigm. And so we're going to build a proof of concept for that. I don't know if it will go anywhere or if it will be interesting to anyone else but us, but I do think that we definitely have a good strategy. And design for how we think this problem could be solved outright by combining this mutual credit system with things like payket for basically settlements abstract and settlement system. I think that we can cover these things. Just might be too early for people to care. We'll see. [01:43:01] Speaker B: Now I would say I totally agree with the idea of a credit system is. It's something that I've been really interesting and it stays in the back of my mind ever since there were discussions of pair credit because I feel like it is one of those things that especially when you have a web of trust in a social graph, it. It changes how you think about that credit. Now I will say and maybe I'll get you to clarify on this. You were talking about it doesn't. Why would it be hinged on Bitcoin or whatever? Like why would it lean on bitcoin is I would say the reason like this just goes back to the general money problem of you have to denominate it in something and if we're all denominating it in different things then we don't know how to relate or even think about receiving credit from anybody. It's rather than just being awaited trust for some specific amount of value or that I have relationship with. We don't really have a totem anymore if you know, my credit is weighted in subscriptions and yours is weighted in, you know, hosting tokens on your website or something like that, you know, like it. It. I think it naturally and makes sense that it goes to sats or when it goes to bitcoin. [01:44:18] Speaker A: That's where you venture into a bias, right? Because like I could say, well, I prefer Ethereum or Litecoin or whatever. [01:44:25] Speaker B: Oh sure, sure. Then you're. Then you're asking a network question. Then you're asking a monetary network question. So yes, but it's true. [01:44:31] Speaker A: In other words, that's the design I've presented you addresses that. The suggestion you're making does not address that. It basically says let's just. So what, John? Let's just use bitcoin because it's the best. It's like, okay, but some people are going to disagree with that forever. You know what I mean? There's always going to be alternative ways to denominate it. And conceptually you're actually totally right to be averse to this idea because what you want as an ideal is a circular economy, right? You want the elite and what the simplest definition is to remove as much conversion as possible. And so if you denominate in 50 things, you have much Conversion, right? If you dominate one thing, you have no conversion. And conversion is where the costs come in, the middlemen come in, the censorship comes in, et cetera. It's all in the conversion. Because you have to involve other parties. It needs to be an order book, liquidity, whatever it may be. And so you're right that conversion is the enemy of efficiency and circular economy. But I think, I don't know if you're wrong, but my theory and why you're wrong is that if you break down the different rules or the different kind of flows in the economic process and separate them, you actually can pull it off. You can say, okay, if I do all of the actual payments using the credit layer and basically, and I separate the credit, the payment layer from the settlement layer and I say, okay, so here is where we just track everything and what everybody owes everybody. And then for as long as. Think of it like a lightning channel, right? Like a lightning channel. It's like we're going to do many, many transactions and then we're going to, when we're done, we'll close it. It's the same concepts like for scale, for cheapness, where we have trust, where we are willing to trust across whatever denominations, whether they be Bitcoin subscription month subscriptions or bananas. Wherever we overlap, we do trust each other. Other, we're not going to settle, we're just going to keep a floating debt with each other. And but when we do want to settle, we're going to have a mechanism that's wired into that that says, okay, hey guy, that $5 you owe me in Starbucks credit, pay me, I want it now. I want an actual settlement. And then what you'll do is you'll go look up my key, you'll look up my payment endpoints, and you'll see which methods I actually support and which ways. You can actually even pay me. If I don't have a way for you to pay me in bananas, you can't settle in bananas. What you'll end up having to do is agree on a conversion rate and pay me in that. And so as long as we have a way to communicate the settlement process peer to peer, you can settle anything without the conversion. The conversion is mental. Instead, it's just saying as long as I'm willing to accept a difference settlement method, then the conversion doesn't actually, actually have to happen. It's mental conversion. It's not, you know, any sort of fee or anything like this. It's like, oh, pay, pay me in lightning. Even though you owe me in bananas. Then the settlement, the, the, the payment layer, the credit layer works just fine. Right? [01:47:42] Speaker B: I'm going to make banana credits just because of this conversation. [01:47:45] Speaker A: And the problem is that you have to do this because there are always going to be people that want to interact but don't agree on which money system, they don't agree on who they trust, they don't agree on how much they trust. Maybe I will only trust you with bitcoin and I would never trust you with bananas because you're going to eat them. Like it's, it's all subjective. So you might as well give people a totally subjective trust based system for, you know, for their, for one, one thing for economy, you give them another system for settlement and then you give them the applications to be able to coordinate, make these payments and these settlements. And that's how I see it. It's just basically deconstructing the whole system and then reducing it down to like whatever we, whatever minimum requirements we can to keep it as self sovereign as possible. And that's really how we approach all of our design problems to say what can we pull apart, what do we even need to pull apart and what's fine the way it is and let's fix this. [01:48:41] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it because what you're doing is rather than seeing essentially, rather than looking at the layer of fiat money and the monetary stack that we've built since kind of 1600s as we've become a very trusted economy is rather than trying to make everything trustless, which is honestly a ridiculous notion in and of itself is you're trying to separate the centralization from the trust problem and allow people to decide and allocate trust individually, which is what a natural. Like it's, it's essentially trying to take what happens in the physical world where you trust and you interact with people and you weight information based on how you, how you got it through that person and making that actually work in the digital environment is how can you build that same sort of relationship with information and interaction in the digital world that we get in the physical world? Because right now we've had to band aid it all through giant centralized entities that have basically taking over, taken over our trust signals and we've had to trust them in place of our actual social graph and our, the actual people that we are trying to interact with. [01:50:03] Speaker A: Which has made us horrible at it. In other words, the heuristics that people we've lost to distribute trust are horrible, horrible. Like we ended up. You know, our whole. Our whole political system and our whole political cultural environment online has been just, like, totally ripped apart. And, you know, we had clown world and we had, like, people are horrible at being able to figure out who to trust. They're just so bad at it, and they use the worst information. So, like, a kind of side quest for me here is that, like, I want to give people the tools so they can actually have a chance of knowing which data to care about, knowing who to trust, knowing what to trust them with and what not to trust them with. It's like, if I go to say I, sorry for using an example, first thing comes to mind because people use before. But if I tag safety as a bitcoiner or a bitcoin expert or whatever, and then I tag him as like, some negative, like, you know, bad health advice or something like this, that allows for the nuance of people respecting him as a bitcoiner but ignoring him as a nutritionist. You know what I mean? Like, and this is something. I don't care either way. You know, I think people should talk about whatever they want to talk about. But it remains true that being an expert in one thing does not make you an expert in everything. And this allows for that nuance. But instead, what we have today is like, people go on Twitter. They see that their friends follow people. They follow the people their friends follow. They see that this guy that said something pumpy and interesting about bitcoin has a hundred thousand followers, so maybe they should follow him too. They see that this woman on Instagram has, like, a new boob job in Botox, and she's sitting. And she's sitting on a Lamborghini, so she must be somebody important and somebody rich. You know, she must be relevant. And we just described that car and those boobs. [01:51:51] Speaker B: I'm going to follow that we ascribe. [01:51:53] Speaker A: All this relevance to things just almost arbitrarily, very crudely at least. And I think that I just, you know, I'm a big fan of nuance, and I think that I want to give people the ability to distinguish between these things, because that's what we're missing. Like, imagine, like, imagine Covid, but with these tools, you know what I mean? Where you see a post and you have like, Facebook is trying to say this is misinformation, but then all the users are saying, great, I don't even. [01:52:20] Speaker B: Trust Facebook, but you know what I mean? [01:52:22] Speaker A: Like, but imagine seeing that discrepancy where, like, synonym and John are saying Covid is, you know, we need lockdowns and you need vaccinations. And this is what cinema believes in, the censoring everybody. But then people are all moving to a different provider, tagging all of my posts as fake news and whatever. And I. Nothing I can do about it. You know what I mean? That's. [01:52:41] Speaker B: The momentum would get away from it. So I mean, that. Yeah, that's just wild. It's wild to think about that. [01:52:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And you'd be able to imagine being able to find like now that then you have a trend where like, we used to have hashtags, right? Sometimes we still have them, but nobody uses them. Sometimes you'd have trends like, maybe your audience should look up, look up, look at me, I'm naval. That was a fun hashtag. But imagine like now being able to actually sort by this. Like, in other words, say somebody made a interesting hashtag about like COVID 19 remedies. You know what I mean? And this was like three years ago. And people are tagging things COVID 19 remedies. And all your. And your friends are helping you curate which COVID 19 remedy posts are the good ones. And then you go and make a feed and you look at COVID 19 remedies tag. And you're gonna see like, oh, I can take Ivermectin and I can do this and. And you could see that, like there are people that you trust that are literally like putting their stamps on this information. Whereas before it's like, you know, oh, I could look at all. I could dig in and I could look at all the likes and see if any of my friends like this. Or I could, you know, it's just the. Your way to interface with deciding what the truth is is gone. And now they want to do Community Notes and it's just like Community Notes is just the same thing rearranged. [01:53:59] Speaker B: It's a band aid. It's a. Yeah, exactly. It's a. It's a pick the top note, you know, the best reference or something. [01:54:06] Speaker A: And who picks it. And you know, who designs the algorithm that picks it. Yeah. Who's allowed to write it? Like, which, which, which things of the. Which Community Notes get censored? I want to see that. You know, like, it's. It's the same system rearranged. Granted, it is good. They are going in the right direction of asking the users to tell, you know, what. What they want instead of trying to interfere. I think huge mistake of Silicon Valley in the past decades has just been this idea that they could ever infer what you want better than just you asking for what you want. I just think that maybe that's the way the web was 20 years ago, where people just had no ability to articulate or use interfaces to get what they want. But I think a lot of people are trained now and know how to use this stuff. And we don't like Elon Musk being. I want to minimize regretted user seconds. This is like a KPI or something you try to optimize for. It's like, okay, but why don't you just let the user like decide which things are regrettable and mark them as regrettable? And you know this, like, why do you want to infer everything? Why do you think that you can like analyze me to figure out what I want? It's weird. [01:55:18] Speaker B: Yeah. How are you going to build that for all of us? That doesn't make. [01:55:21] Speaker A: Well, they already did. Right. But it's just, it's just their, their inference is always going to be biased by their preference. And so that's not, that's not solving problems for people. It's solving problems for them. [01:55:35] Speaker B: It's something specifically used for them. Like they're not doing it and they're. [01:55:39] Speaker A: Always trying to bias it for some weird preference. It's like, oh, now we want to bias it for like propaganda. Now we want to bias it for like being nice. And it's like, no, man, like, I want to choose what I want to see. Maybe today I want to like read tweets from a bunch of assholes. Maybe tomorrow I want to, you know, I want to save space. I don't know, like, just let me control it. [01:56:02] Speaker B: Yeah, dude, there's so many times in which. Especially the, the idea that this is going to be like search as well. Like, like this is going to be like a way to filter and find stuff is. I cannot tell you how many times like this would have been like deeply useful to the point that it would change my experience on the web as a whole. Because especially with anything politically controversial, which is basically the only things that I'm interested in, like trying to find stuff like where like so much of the, the stuff or information that I do, I'll do through social discovery and then I will explicitly dig into it and then I'll find out. Ok. Is nonsense. Okay. This is based on a video that wasn't even real or it's a year old, you know, like, and I'll do like kind of my simple, my first step, due diligence on it. And then I will either save it to either investigate later or as a reference for something in the future if it is ever even slightly politically unfavorable or if it's like a, if it's like anything about climate change or Covid or like debt or inflation or something, something that I know I had and something that I swear I saved somewhere and God knows where. I go to Google, I can't find it. I go, I, I type it into, I do the site colon twitter.com/their username. It's, it's not indexed. Like I just, it vanishes like two months later if it's just inconvenient for the wrong people. People. And it is infuriating. And it's like my social graph provided this to me. Like somebody that I follow gave me a link, like shared it to me and it is gone and I cannot find it again because the other people on the Internet are trying to make it so that I don't find that. [01:58:00] Speaker A: You know, that Remember when I said earlier that like the, the, you could look at it conceptually as the popularity data is how many copies of that data exist. And so, you know, when you talk about something that disappears like that's, it doesn't mean like a decentralized system isn't going to necessarily fix that unless more people have the data. And so for example, in the home server model for PubKey, well, if it's. [01:58:25] Speaker B: Weighted through my social graph, it'll find the person in my social graph first who had it. [01:58:28] Speaker A: And well, it depends on the exact use case and what you're trying to do. Yes, but, but generally speaking, if the data only exists on one home server and that data gets deleted, it's gone. If that data only exists in one index, then you're not going to be able to search through the graph for it. You know what I mean? If it gets censored and so you still need basically your own Internet archive, if that's the kind of expectation you have. Because we often rely on the Internet archive to find things that the way they used to be and they try to keep a copy of everything, but even that is trusted, right? Like they could edit old data, they could make things up, you wouldn't really know much difference because they're the only source. And so it's data is not permanent, locations are not permanent, everything is ephemeral. And so you are going to always have to deal with a little bit of that at least because we can't, you know, like there's going to be movies that you saw when you were, you know, 8 years old that on VHS that you just will never see again because nobody ever digitized them, and they're just gone forever. Yeah. [01:59:34] Speaker B: Dude, there's so many. God, it's weird. History. History is a crazy thing. How much like. Like, we lose orders of magnitude more than is left, you know? [01:59:45] Speaker A: Well, we generate orders of magnitude, too, right? [01:59:49] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, no kidding. But anyway, I don't. I don't want to keep you forever. Like, we could. I could still go down this rabbit hole further. And there was something that you said about the whole, like, we'll hold, like, a little bit of credit with each other. They made me think about a book I read recently. So there's a whole nother thread that I could go down, but I think. I think we should stop it here. How. How are you? Good on time? Freaking day. [02:00:14] Speaker A: You're welcome to ask any questions. Otherwise, we can do it again. [02:00:18] Speaker B: It's four here. And you're in. You're in Florida. It's four there, too. I actually think I have now. [02:00:24] Speaker A: I want to know the question, so. [02:00:26] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Well, so one of the things that. One of the comments about the credit thing, actually, and it's funny because I told this to my brother after I heard the book, or I was listening to the book, which it wasn't debt 5,000 years. It wasn't Graeber's book. It was something by Howard Bloom. I can't remember the name of the book right now. I'll have it in the show notes if I can't think of it. But it was this idea of breaking down how social interactions work and trust. And it wasn't through a context of, like, Bitcoin or everything's going to be sovereignty. It was just like, just, how does trust work between humans? And one of the things that just, like, totally stood out to me and just was wild was that, you know, a lot of people think that the best way to kind of make a friend in a new neighborhood or to be neighborly is to, you know, I'm gonna go and offer you something, or I'm gonna make you some food or something like that. And while that is a great way to introduce, one of the ways to actually make someone trust you is. Or two. Two things that are really interesting is one, to actually borrow something from them is to actually ask them for a. A cup of sugar or can I borrow your weed eater? I've got this one little spot, and then give it back and make them feel like they have provided something to you. And that actually creates some. This. This sort of mental attachment. And what was interesting about that when I was thinking about in the context of like money and credit and everything, is that you're talking about building this relationship where they feel trustworthy because of the interaction that they have had with you. And why credit is actually a healthy. It's a necessary part of the economy. Is that the whole idea that you talked about with we suck at knowing who to trust and how to trust people is because we don't have a totem in everything is trust all the way down. It's turtles all the way down. So we don't have this. We don't have a sovereignty kind of foundation to work from anymore. So with that foundation in Bitcoin and an Internet where we can actually own our own data, where we can see what sovereignty is like, well, now we begin to have these, you know, everything's relative, right? Theory of relativity. Like if. If I don't know what it's like to. For a nice day, I don't know what a rainy day is. You know, like it's. It's all. It's all dependent on if I've had a really, really nice day. I know this is a very bad storm. And in that same sense is we don't know how to weight trust. And when you start changing those kind of foundational tools and give people a way to build trust, to be sovereign, to have their own money, well, now I understand what the value of credit is. I now may actually understand the value of your credit. And my ability to. To build a trusted economy on top of that now has a whole new avenue for waiting and understanding and kind of a new environment with new tools that we've never experienced before. And I think that fundamentally changes how all of this starts getting put back together. Because suddenly we can tell the difference between a rainy day and a sunny, you know, a beautiful day. And so now we can build our operations around preparing for the rainy day and of hoping or expecting the nice day, I guess, so to speak. But I thought that that was super interesting about the. We should all be a little bit in debt to each other, because that's how we tie ourselves to caring about. Because we are, and we already are, because we are. [02:04:23] Speaker A: Society is trust. That's what it is like at its very core. If you wanted to give like a very basic trolley definition of society, you would say it's trust. Like civilization is trusting that other people will be civil and not tear your head off and maim you. You know what I mean? Like, that's what society is it's, it's, it's, it's an agreement to not be violent with each other, an agreement to not deceive each other, et cetera. And so society is trust. And so when I said earlier that like we're trying to make an alternative digital society, it makes a lot of sense when I also add we're trying to figure out ways to digitize trust and give people ways to manage trust tools because you can't have a society without trust and you're certainly not going to make a different or better one without giving people better ways to manage their trust. And so that's, that's literally what we're doing at large with our whole atomic omni vision, with pub key, et cetera. But it's also, you know, getting back to atomicity and the credit system that we want to build and maybe please link the audience to the atomicity. All it is is a paper at the moment, or I was about to. [02:05:30] Speaker B: Say I hadn't even dug into that yet. I have a link to it somewhere in my stack of stuff. But yeah, yeah, it's just a write. [02:05:37] Speaker A: Up explaining like how it would work. It doesn't actually exist yet. But what's interesting there is that what we literally are going to do is figure out how to route trust through your peers. And so imagine like how right now when I imagine you, your audience know a little bit of how lightning works in routing, eventually your lightning network is all of the channels you could possibly send money through and receive money money through. Your lightning network is just your view of the lightning network, right? There are other people using lightning that are connected, that are not connected to you, that are totally separated. Like you don't know how many pockets and disparate areas of lightning network exist because you can't know. And so when you want to route a payment, or route a payment, depending on which country you're from, what you're actually looking at is all of the credit routes that you have as an option and then you're checking which one is the fastest or the cheapest or whatever you're optimizing for the same thing. Atomicity can do the same thing. So, but instead of looking at routes through the channels you have open, your channels are other peers that you have credit with. And so when you want to make a payment to someone that maybe has no credit with you and you have no credit with them, you could see if there's a trusted payment route to that person that's all entirely credit based. So for example, I could Say like, okay, I, Guy owes me $5. Guy's brother owes me $3. Guy's brother is connected to this other guy who will, you know, who I'm trying to pay but I don't have. Right. And so now what I can do is I can say, hey, can I form a payment route the same way that you would with lightning, locking up all these payment commitments and then have somebody else pay the guy for me. And so it's just like lightning, except it's all credit based. And so that's wild. You don't need like the routing is no longer what makes the system suck and expensive and break and fail. It just, it's, it's all just an opportunity. It's either going to work or it's not. You either have the credit line or you don't. And so it's sort of like an extended credit line through many peers. And if you can accomplish most of your transactions this way, you won't need bitcoin scaling. You won't need, you know, trusted custodians and whatever. Like you could just say, I have enough people in my life that I trust with enough balances to where I can get most of what I get done without settling at all. That's, you know, the hope. [02:08:13] Speaker B: That's wild. That's crazy to think about. I didn't think about the idea of like bridging. Bridging them together. That'd be amazing. [02:08:23] Speaker A: This is maybe a more scary way to look at it. And we can leave your audience with this nightmare that. What if what I'm talking about. [02:08:28] Speaker B: Yes. [02:08:29] Speaker A: What if this, what if this idea actually makes sense? What if it actually works? And what if we don't even need bitcoin? [02:08:35] Speaker B: I would love it. I would love it. I'm here for it. Let's. Let's end it there. [02:08:39] Speaker A: It's a bit hippie woo kind of idea, but I think we probably do need bitcoin because you can't actually trust everybody. [02:08:47] Speaker B: But you can't ruin it. You can't spoil it. No. [02:08:52] Speaker A: With the hook. Yeah. [02:08:54] Speaker B: All right, man. That's a great note to end on, dude. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for answering all the questions. I've been wanting to take some serious time into pub key that I haven't gotten to yet. So this was wonderful. I'll catch you on the telegram and I'll give link and stuff to all that good stuff. Anything else? Anybody you want to point anybody to, to check out? [02:09:16] Speaker A: No, just if you're a dev, you know, please check out PubKey. We have an org and GitHub that you can look at all the code that we have. Currently open source. We're trying to start meeting regularly and probably this quarter, if not next quarter we will be actually doing some incentive based events where we'll have either a hackathon or bounties or things like this around certain things for building with PubKey. So this is our first year, we have a marketing budget so we'll be marketing BitKit and PubKey to developers. So yeah, please, if you're a dev, check it out. If you're not a dev and you're just interested or user, please don't be mad at me for saying nice things about Nostr and please give our app. [02:09:57] Speaker B: That's not going to help. That's not going to help. Everybody's going to hate you. [02:10:02] Speaker A: I'm just trying to be useful. I'm trying to be honest. I think there's a lot of great things about Noster, but I think that we can still do better. [02:10:10] Speaker B: No, I love it, I love it. I love, I love arguing about it, man. It's, it's, it's way better if there's disagreements and people actually have opinions or strong tendencies towards one or the other. Like some of my favorite things about people in Noster is how much they shit on peer to peer and like I love hole punch stuff too, you know, Like I just. [02:10:28] Speaker A: So I'm just glad all this stuff actually became relevant, you know, because five years ago. [02:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [02:10:33] Speaker A: It wasn't much of caring about any of this. This. It was kind of like Ion was a thing and Ion really wanted to make a bunch of specs but nobody cared and that kind of stayed that way. But Nostr became something, Blue sky became something. It's like 20, 20 million plus users. So there's a lot of relevance now to what we're doing and I'm hoping that people will see the differences because we are trying to actually fix problems that Nostr has avoided fixing and do something that is sustainable and through a cathedral kind of company strategy. And Bluesky, which seems to be the current hope or the most successful thing, is very, very bent towards moderation, very bent towards censorship, being in censoring as much as possible. And I think that it's going to be interesting. I think we have a place, I think pubkey will be a counterculture to that. It will be a place for maybe Nostr and Bitcoiners to progress to something more mature and complex and more intentional in design. And I think Maybe we'll cover our own niche at the very least. [02:11:37] Speaker B: Sweet. Hell yeah. Oh yeah, well, I'll stay informed. I'll still be doing episodes on it on updates and stuff. Might even do some videos as I start to get to play around with this. So I'll keep you up to date and I'll tag you and shit. [02:11:49] Speaker A: I'll be in touch soon with that private beta invite. Yeah? [02:11:54] Speaker B: Hell yeah. All right, dude, thank you again for joining me. And thank you. We'll close it out. This is something I want so badly to figure out how to plug all of this crap together because I feel like we have all of the pieces like everything that we need. They're just not all in the same place. And Pub Key is such a fascinating, like I said in this episode is that pubkey seems to be perfectly in the middle between Nostr and the whole bunch in tackling things that both have in their own corners not yet tackled. And the idea of having an entirely alternative DNS and making it explicitly something that can just be in the browser is so cool and just a really good choice in a very subtle way in the sense that it might seem like an arbitrary decision, but it could have very outsized benefits to the trade offs that these other ideas have to deal with in Nostr being the relay issue and the potential for censorship if things centralize in the ecosystem itself and then on the hole punch side, the potential problems with being overly complex and then key hierarchies and identity. So I want to tell you how I think about the show notes and the description. You're going to have lots of links down there. I specifically try to collect every link that I can think of and place it in the description so that I can get to it later. Because if I just save it in my notes, it might as well be gone in a lot of cases. It's usually not organized and it's certainly not in the context of the conversation that I had. So I want you to remember that the description of this show is literally my own personal database for how I find all of the things that I wanted to dig into or that I was saving in relation to the episode or the person that I was having the chat with. So that RSS feed is really my database and if you are ever looking for something, don't forget that that's where it is. You can just search the bitcoin audible feedback and you might just be able to find whatever it is you're looking for. And I'm going to make a much better version and better way to search it and sort through all of the content and the episodes and everything that I do on bitcoinautible. Com. That's just a very slow moving project because the Internet sucks. I guess I don't really have a good answer for that. Maybe it's just WordPress, I don't know, maybe I'm retarded. But anyway, we'll close this out. A shout out to John Carvalho to synonymous to pubkey for the incredible stuff that they're building for. Also being a great guy and always having a very strong opinion about everything that he has an opinion about and for coming on the show to hang out and go through some really cool ideas and tools and stuff happening in the bitcoin space. Don't forget to check out Fold we have a referral link down there which gets you 20,000 sats. Don't forget to check out bitkit which will have some as he talked about we'll actually have some integrations with Pub Key and the not too distant future. It not like immediately on the table but down the road. Another reason to check that one out. But also just in general it's a really fantastic on Chain and Lightning Wallet that is non custodial. And then I also added in my affiliate link for Blockstream to get yourself a jade. Plus there's a discount down there which I still haven't gone to confirm so I don't know what it is but if you find it in the description description, it'll tell you all about it. All right, thank you guys so much. I will catch you on the next episode. Until then I have guys won. Take it easy guys. La.