Chat_128 - The Voice of Bitcoin [Bitcoin Infinity Show]

[00:00:00] Speaker A: When you're printing money and rushing to. [00:00:02] Speaker B: Catch up, wages are always the last thing to move. [00:00:05] Speaker A: Wages, salaries, they are literally refer. Even in shit fiat economics, they are referred to as sticky prices because they. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Are the slowest moving, longest contractual obligations in the economy. Therefore, it's weird and it's, it's a difficult thing to change them. [00:00:22] Speaker A: It's extremely easy to change the price of a coffee in five hours, change the price of gas. You can see it happen live. You can pull into the gas station, watch that thing tick up a penny, two pennies. Like they change it immediately. As soon as the commodity changes that. [00:00:39] Speaker B: They have to purchase the. The price of the good changes. Your wages will take a year to catch up to that at best, if you're lucky. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Which means that you are always racing. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Back to zero under inflation under a fiat system, whereas literally the exact opposite occurs. Your wages stay where they are for a year while the price ticks down during inflation, which means that you are. [00:01:07] Speaker A: In a permanently ahead of the game, even if you do nothing. [00:01:27] Speaker C: What is up, guys? Welcome back to the show. We have got an awesome chat episode today. It's actually a couple of months old, but I had a ton of fun with this one. And if you missed this one, on the Bitcoin Infinity show, I went on as a guest with my good friend Knut and Luke, the authors of, I mean, you know Knut, I've done four, five, I. I don't even know a bunch of his books now. All of his books I believe. And he and Luke wrote Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World, which I also did the audio for and is also fantastic. And so I went on the show and we actually talk, we talk a bit about the book, but we just kind of go down the rabbit hole discussing a ton of different things. Probably my favorite topic that we got into is the whole give a shit matrix and talking about that concept and Milton Friedman and the idea of the four ways to spend money and how that applies broadly to so many things, how you can use that mental model to understand so much in the world and how fiat leads to clown world, the connection of technology and sound money to, to the use and economization of time and resources. And then of course we get into JPEGs and ordinals and shitcoins and everything else that you would expect sitting down with Knut, myself and Luke DeWolf. So I think you guys are really going to enjoy this one. If you didn't catch it. Do not forget to grab your jade plus hardware wall I'm just finishing up my second video so that we can walk through the setup and just kind of show you how to use it and how seamless it is to use it. So if you don't have one yet or you want to grab one 10% off, do not forget your 10% off with Code Guy. And of course, check out the BitKit mobile wallet. This is a self custody on chain and lightning wallet. And honestly, it has one of the cleanest and most intuitive designs that I have for a while. I also actually just use bitkit in order to check the bitcoin price because there's like these cool little peer to peer widgets that you can do. You should definitely check out the UX of that wallet because it's really good. And keep an eye out for all of the other things that synonym is building. They are up to some really cool stuff. All right, with that, let's get into today's episode. This is the voice of bitcoin. That's me. [00:03:50] Speaker B: I'm. [00:03:50] Speaker C: I was the voice of bitcoin. I'm not actually calling myself that. I'm not quite that arrogant yet. And it's important to note that this is not I speak for bitcoin. This is I, I am the guy's voice that you hear with all of the bitcoin stuff. The voice of bitcoin. With Knut Swan home and Luke De Wolf on the Bitcoin Infinity Show. [00:04:14] Speaker D: Guy, welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. [00:04:16] Speaker E: Thanks for joining us. [00:04:18] Speaker B: I still put it as, I still put it as Freedom Footprint in my calendar. And then when I went looking for the email, I again searched for Freedom Footprint. I was like, where's the link? I went, I, I, I like kind of panicked for like four or five minutes. And then I was like, oh, you idiot. It's the Bitcoin Infinity Share. [00:04:37] Speaker F: Yeah, that's the problem with rebrand. Yeah. What, what was your original brand? Crypto. [00:04:43] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no, no. [00:04:48] Speaker B: There was the crypto economy. [00:04:52] Speaker F: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:53] Speaker A: I started that before crypto was like. [00:04:55] Speaker B: A straight up bad word. And part of my reasoning, it had, it was becoming that. And part of my reasoning was I was trying to Trojan horse. Is that because crypto was like the popular term? I was like, okay, well maybe I'll get like a bunch of shitcoiners and I'll convert them into bitcoiners. [00:05:09] Speaker A: And then it like slowly got worse. [00:05:11] Speaker B: And worse and it was like crypto. [00:05:12] Speaker A: Was just like gross. More and more gross, like over the. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Next like two years. And I Was like, man, I think I made the wrong bet. [00:05:20] Speaker A: And it wasn't working. [00:05:21] Speaker B: It was still just only Bitcoiners listening to the show. I didn't trick anybody. [00:05:25] Speaker F: Fantastic. [00:05:26] Speaker B: And I was like, I gotta get rid of this thing. [00:05:27] Speaker F: I gotta drop this guy. I mean, it's so good to have you here. We haven't done a pod in ages, which is weird. You are one of my favorite weird. You're one of my favorite people in the whole universe. You've just finished recording with. This is a bit of insider information here. Well, you've just finished recording Bitcoin, the inverse of Clown World, the audiobook, which is probably out by the time that this pod comes out. So, like, yeah, that's absolutely great. I've listened through it, and I absolutely loved it. You've stepped up your game. Everything is better. Even though it was super awesome before. [00:06:06] Speaker A: So what are you saying about the last ones, man? You saying I was shitty? [00:06:11] Speaker F: No, no, no, I'm not saying you were shitty. Maybe, like, maybe I did. I didn't. It could get any better, but it could. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Like, yeah. [00:06:24] Speaker F: Then again, I didn't believe I could write any better, but I could when I got a little. Right. [00:06:29] Speaker B: No, I loved it, dude. Such a good book. Such. [00:06:34] Speaker F: But before we go into this back and forth about that or. And about other things for our listeners that don't know you, why the. You wouldn't like anyway? Can you give us the TLDR on the Voice of Bitcoin? Mr. Guys 1. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm the. I'm the guy who's read more about bitcoin than anybody else, you know, went. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Down the rabbit hole in 2011 and. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Literally fell so far so fast that there was never. There was never a way to come out and started the podcast not to be named, which is now known as Bitcoin audible in 2018. 2018, March of 2018. And so I'm coming up. I'll be coming up on seven. Six years. You know, 2024 was six years. Oh, my God. I'll be coming up on seven years in 2025. This coming in March. All right. And. And also I've started a number of other podcasts just around tech that I've always been a techie guy. And I've read audio books and Knut, if you've. If you've got any of other Knut's books. I've read all of his audio books. They're all great. I've done Broken Money by Lynn Fiat Standard from Safe Layered Money with Nick. I Mean, just, I think I've got like 15 or 16 now somewhere in there. Getting close to 20. Getting close to 20. Maybe I'll just stop at 21 just for the hell of it. But, yeah, so I. I read everything I can get my hands on about bitcoin econ tech and also have the shows AI Unchained and the Pear Report. [00:08:18] Speaker A: And a little bit of. [00:08:20] Speaker B: I don't know. I keep saying that it's not dead, but I still have yet to bring another episode back. I think we only have done nine episodes ever. But shitcoin Insider, it's never. It's never truly dead. It's never truly dead. There will always be a reason to talk about shitcoins. [00:08:36] Speaker F: Yeah. Just like the shitcoins themselves, they never truly die. [00:08:40] Speaker B: They never truly die. [00:08:41] Speaker A: For better, for worse. [00:08:43] Speaker B: They're always there. [00:08:46] Speaker F: All right, so. So yeah, where do we go with this? Like, what have we been up to? Like, yeah, accept this. I mean, you've been. You've been given a lot of talks and doing small videos. I've enjoyed them immensely. That Little Milton freed money, four quadrants, others people's money. Yeah, the bull suit matrix. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, the give a shit matrix. [00:09:11] Speaker F: Excuse me, the give a matrix. Yeah. How does that work? [00:09:15] Speaker B: Well, you want to break down the give a shit matrix right now? [00:09:18] Speaker F: Yeah, why not? Why not? [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So Milton Friedman has this really fantastic. It's so funny how many. How often we get lost in kind of arguing about surface stuff, you know, arguing about kind of the waves in the ocean rather than thinking about the current, like how critical fundamental incentives are and that you can't get around those things. You. The. When you screw up the underlying. It does not. [00:09:44] Speaker A: It does not matter in the slightest. [00:09:46] Speaker B: What you do on top of it. And one of the most powerful and inescapable underlying principles of how to spend resource, how to use up resources, which is everything that we do, we just use up resources. We are either producing or we produce and then we use it up. And the. The goal is for those resources to go to the best, the most optimal and most positive use case. How does it produce the most possible value? How do we care the absolute most about how it is being used and like, about what, what we get out of it? What are the results of the use of these resources and how many of the resources does it take to accomplish those results? Those are the two primary concerns that we have always. And everything is scarce. We've run out of all of it. If we don't care about those two things. Inevitably, inevitably, we are wasting resources in some form or fashion. Either either we're using too many for too crappy of a result, or we have a crappy result, and no matter how little we're using, we're still just not getting anything out of it. So Milton Friedman has this great talk, or just kind of an interview that I remember hearing, talking about how we have four different ways to spend money is I can spend money that I earned on myself, I can spend money that I earned on you or somebody else. I can spend money that you earned on me, or I can spend money. [00:11:27] Speaker A: That you earned on somebody else. [00:11:32] Speaker B: And the fundamental connection to the cost and the re and the results are different for every one of them. If, and this is, this ultimately creates the matrix. I mean, the, the give a matrix. Why do you call it all of a sudden the give a matrix? [00:11:48] Speaker A: And so if you put on the. [00:11:50] Speaker B: X and Y axis the how much we care about the results and how much we care about how much it costs. When I am spending money on myself, money that I earned, one of the most important things to understand is that money is a waiting system. It is weighing the value of something. And only the money that you earn can you actually feel the weight of. Because it is you who put in the blood, sweat, and tears in order to make that earning, to pull in 300 today. And that 300 is literally your lifeblood. It is your way to interact with the economy, to get your food, to get, you know, save up and get braces for your kids, to. To have any kind of a break so that you can relax and get your head straight. That is your lifeblood. So when you earn money and then you spend it on yourself, you care absolutely the most about what you get out of it. [00:12:54] Speaker A: And you feel every bit of the. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Weight of how much it costs. Because, you know, when you buy a. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Sandwich for yourself, you have to eat. [00:13:01] Speaker B: The sandwich you want, the best possible sandwich that you can get. [00:13:06] Speaker A: And if they're charging you $20 for a sandwich that feels like $10, you're. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Going to be very unhappy because you. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Know how much that $20 weighs. [00:13:15] Speaker F: You mean I'm at the airport? [00:13:17] Speaker B: At the airport. Yeah, clearly, like at the airport. [00:13:22] Speaker A: And when I am spending now when. [00:13:25] Speaker B: I'm spending my money on you, I still feel all of the weight of the resources that go into it, how much it costs when I buy a $20 sandwich, but I don't really care. [00:13:39] Speaker A: So much about what it tastes like because I'm not going to taste it. [00:13:43] Speaker B: I'm not going to eat it. [00:13:44] Speaker A: And there's no way. It doesn't matter how nice of a person I am, doesn't matter how empathetic I am. [00:13:50] Speaker B: It's not relevant. [00:13:52] Speaker A: It's the sheer fact that I will. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Not go into my lived experience that I cannot feel or care about the result as much as I would with me. It is axiomatic. [00:14:05] Speaker A: And in fact, if you are a very empathetic person, it still just means that you will. [00:14:10] Speaker B: You will still more. [00:14:11] Speaker A: It just means that you care more than other people. [00:14:13] Speaker B: It doesn't mean that you care more about what it is when it's you. So I care a lot about the. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Cost, but I don't care so much about the results. You know, if they accidentally put olives on your $10 sandwich, you should really just. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Why not? [00:14:32] Speaker A: How about don't bitch about it because. [00:14:34] Speaker B: I bought it for you, you know, but if you put olives on my ten dollar sandwich, I'm gonna be very, very ma. [00:14:43] Speaker A: There Is spending your money on me. [00:14:49] Speaker B: Suddenly the weight of the cost goes down drastically. This is the equivalent of getting the company credit card to go out to eat. You're going to spend a whole lot more time thinking about exactly what you want off of that menu than you are going to be looking at the, the sidebar with all the numbers on it. Right? You're not that worried about the cost, but you're definitely going to make sure that you get something that you want. [00:15:15] Speaker A: In fact, you might get a little. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Bit excited because now you can actually get dessert when you usually don't because it costs too much. So you care a lot about the results but not the cost. Then there is me spending your money on somebody else. I have no connection to the results. I don't have to live in that house. I don't have to eat that sandwich. I don't have to. I don't have to see the results. [00:15:47] Speaker A: In fact, I could just get somebody. [00:15:49] Speaker B: To write a report for me and. [00:15:51] Speaker A: Have them judge whether or not those results are worthy of my time. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Sure. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Good. There was an some number ticked up. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Great. We did a great job. [00:15:59] Speaker A: And I also don't give the flying F what the cost is because it's not mine. I don't feel the weight of any of it. And all you have to do is casually look understand every single thing that the government does is in that quadrant. [00:16:17] Speaker B: It's in the bottom left quadrant where you do not give a shit about. [00:16:21] Speaker A: The results and you do not give. [00:16:23] Speaker B: A shit about the cost. [00:16:24] Speaker A: And all you have to do is. [00:16:25] Speaker B: Listen to them to recognize this and. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Then flip it around for you. Imagine if you think about how much, you know, I once we were trying. [00:16:36] Speaker B: To buy a vacuum cleaner and this is when we were kind of stressing balls. We were having a hard time, we weren't making a ton of money and we had to, we needed to buy a vacuum cleaner. And honestly I, I'm, I'm a little bit. My mother is a clean freak and she has passed some of this down to me. And so I want a really nice vacuum cleaner that's going to last. I don't want a cheap piece of crap. We literally spent two months reading reviews, looking around just like casually every single day. We put more, more work into making sure we got a vacuum cleaner, which mind you, we still have like 15 years later and it works. It is a solid vacuum cleaner. We did a really good job. [00:17:18] Speaker A: It was $120. That is the amount of care and. [00:17:22] Speaker B: Concern we put into $120 worth of cost. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Now think about how much concern went. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Into a 3,000 page bill that not one piece of shit in Congress even read. Because who the hell can read a 3,000 page bill worth of legal nonsense. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Written by a bunch of lobbyists who are entirely in the quadrant of I'm going to use your money to spend on me and then submitted to Congress forced a vote in a matter of. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Like two or three days in which. [00:17:57] Speaker A: The best they can do is skim through and has more zeros than anybody. [00:18:00] Speaker B: Can actually comprehend in the cost. [00:18:03] Speaker A: And where Biden gets up in front of a podium and talks about bajillion trillion million billion. Like doesn't even, he can't even say the number. It's so big and absurd. And compare that to when it is actually you spending it on yourself. The amount of concern there is more concern, I promise you. Up, down, left, right, sideways. There was more concern in the $120 I spent on my fucking vacuum cleaner. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Than they spent in 3,000 pages that. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Distributed $2.5 trillion to a bunch of corporations and lobbyists. You're talking about a factor of literally. [00:18:45] Speaker B: Trillions in the degree of concern about where that money go money went, which is mind boggling. [00:18:54] Speaker A: You are looking at a system that. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Literally destroys society trillions of dollars at a time because no one gives an. [00:19:01] Speaker A: Apps, no one gives a flying what. [00:19:05] Speaker B: It costs or what you get out of it. [00:19:09] Speaker A: And in fact, in fact they are incentivized for it to get worse, for the results to be so shitty that people will demand they do it again. It is better for them for the results to be awful because then they get to say we didn't have enough. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Money, when that's not the problem at all. [00:19:30] Speaker A: The problem is that their entire world. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Exists the bottom left quadrant of the give a ship matrix. [00:19:37] Speaker F: Absolutely beautifully illustrated. It reminds me of I, I did some practice at the, what's it called? Like it was the municipality of the town I grew up in. They had like some institution for roads and, and stuff like that and for, for shoveling snow in the winter. Like the municipality is a taxpayer paid. And one winter it didn't snow at all. So they went under budget by quite a lot. But this is how these things work. Like what do you think happened? That they got a lower budget, that the people got their money back for their taxes back? Of course what happened was that everyone working for the snow shoveling thing got a bonus because of work well done. There was no snow on the streets. Yeah. So, so they, they made sure that they made their budget like that they cost enough. Like optimally, you would want your government funded or no taxpayer funded thing to cost a little more than it did last year, every year. Like it can never cost less because then you get less money. [00:20:51] Speaker B: And it's wild to think about how unbelievably backwards that is and how people think they're getting a free lunch with the government. You know, if they don't see the bill come to their doorstep. They think that the money has no cost because they fail to recognize that the money has nothing to do with anything. The cost is the resources. Money is just a proxy for resources. It's just, it's basically a receipt system. It's a collective receipt system. How do we have a receipt for favors rendered that we can use for redeeming favors later? That's it. I did something for you. You gave me a receipt and now I have this receipt and I can come back to somebody else and I can redeem him. Government, anytime it prints money or goes into a deficit, is just redeeming receipts. It's just counterfeiting receipts. [00:21:43] Speaker A: It's just redeeming all of our favors and all of our resources, all of. [00:21:46] Speaker B: Our time and our houses and our. [00:21:47] Speaker A: Cars and our fuel without ever contributing anything. It's a fake receipt. [00:21:53] Speaker B: It's just fraud. [00:21:54] Speaker F: Yeah, it reminds me so much of one of my favorite analogies about printing money is from the great artists of the 20th century in southern Europe. So Picasso and Salvador Dali and all of those guys. And there's one incident where Salvador Dali. It's one of the previous books, right? [00:22:15] Speaker A: It's in Independence, Reimagined, I think. [00:22:18] Speaker F: So the first example. But then I put the other example because I heard of that after I told that story. And he's running into another car and wrecks the other car somewhere in France. And the Frenchman walks out and he's all mad. And what Dali does is that he signs the car wreck, making the car wreck more valuable than the original cost of the car, like the original price of the car that he destroyed because he's so famous at this point. And apparently these painters, they used that for their restaurant bills. So instead of their restaurant bills. So instead of paying for a meal, they started signing the receipts and the receipt became more valuable than whatever the dinner cost, except that they couldn't do it forever because there was inflation in signed receipts. All of a sudden everyone had Salvador Dali and Picasso signed receipts. So. And it's a perfect metaphor for money printing, right? And also, like a couple of things come to mind when you tell the story about the quadrants. One is the, the famous Margaret Thatcher quote, the problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money, which is loading to the. That's that the resources go away if you don't use them properly. And the other thing is that bitcoin is at the very, very best point and it's at the very top corner of this quadrant, right? The very top corner, because it's giving a shit on steroids. You give 100% shit about your money. You don't trust, you verify, you make sure that it's actually yours and it's being spent by you on stuff you wanted to buy. Yes, so, so it's the, it's the most give a point. [00:24:07] Speaker B: It's, it's the apex of the job that money is supposed to do. But there's actually a feedback system in sound money itself and how money is supposed to work, which is brilliant because it amplifies the giving a. Even outside of the weight of what it meant to you. Because you also have a reflection of the prosperity increase of society, of the productive increase of society reflecting in your money. Therefore, the longer, the longer you hold on to it, the deeper the weight is, the more you realize that if you don't use up resources that you don't need to use up right now. [00:24:47] Speaker A: In two years time you can actually. [00:24:49] Speaker B: Get access to a lot more resources because society is getting better. So what you, you. What you actually have is you have two things. You have Both the weight of the resources and how much you earned in knowing what the value of it, because you know what you put into it in order to achieve it. But you also have in the back of your mind this incentive to wait because you know the, to, to give it time because you know that the weight of everyone else's resources are going to, are going to increase over time. You know that is going to be a greater portion of the economic pool or excuse me, it's a greater percentage, the same percentage of a greater economic pool of resources later in the future. And therefore you benefit also not only from conserving your own resources, but conserving. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Society'S resources for the sake of making society better. And you don't have to know. You don't have to know that that's. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Why, but that's why, that's why it's. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Happening is incentivizing you to hope or to, to make a decision in order. [00:25:56] Speaker B: To make society better for the purposes of making your own life better. It is aligning you in that way. So there's a collective benefit at the exact same time that there's an individual benefit. [00:26:06] Speaker F: Yeah, and that, that reflection we refer to as number go up number. That is what that, that is what that reflection. And yeah, and the opposite is true as well. Like that's why you see empty shelves on supermarkets in, in countries with price controls. Because socialism and other natural disasters don't fail because of a lack of incentives. They, they, they fail because of a manipulation of the price signal. First and foremost. [00:26:40] Speaker B: They fail because of the success of their incentives. [00:26:44] Speaker F: Yeah, in a way that's true. But like, the thing is, if you have a gun to your head and some general tells you vac it will work. So it's not the incentives, it is the pricing signal. Because if you have no proper pricing mechanism, people don't know what to produce and when in what quantities. So it's the literal opposite of the number go up technology in Bitcoin. It's not, it's everything go down technology. Like everything go to technology. [00:27:14] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I, I'm glad you enjoy the, the two sets video series. I haven't had a ton of time to dedicate to it, but I've literally got like 23 of them as far as like projects started for like little ideas. And I'm trying to figure out which one to do next. And it's really hard to break a lot of these ideas down into like four minutes, like cohesively. And that's kind of what I'm Trying to do is sub four minutes as my goal. If I could get into two, it'd be perfect. But it's unrealistic for a lot of them to really explain it. But I've got one that I want to talk about because I think it's not really appreciated, is that there's a reason that technology doesn't make our lives better. That that technology, like thinking on the context of like last 30 or 40 years, think about the absolutely incredible scale of innovation and drastic changes in our technological landscape. How is it that we don't have more time? We have no more time. We have no more time. In fact, quite the opposite. A lot of people have less time. Technology has gotten drastically better, but all. [00:28:40] Speaker A: It has done done is sped up the economy. [00:28:44] Speaker B: It has not freed up the economy at all. And this is explicitly and only because we don't have sound money. Like this is a mechanism that has nothing to do with technology. Technology is actually doing its job. But what it is actually allowing is for the inflation to be worse. And I don't mean that in the context of like cpi, like price inflation. It's actually a massive deflationary force from the technological, technological standpoint. I mean the amount of inflation that is needed or enabled that would actually keep prices stable. The purpose of technology is that prices are supposed to fall as things get better. And as technology gets better, it's supposed to fall. And if we actually had sound money, we would actually have just gargantuan amounts, more time at our disposal. Like we would have our leisure to make decisions or to change what we want to do. [00:29:47] Speaker A: And it wouldn't matter that our job. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Got automated away because that would be better for us. [00:29:52] Speaker A: At the exact same time that it got automated away, what we got paid. [00:29:55] Speaker B: All year is also 10% more valuable. [00:29:59] Speaker A: So you'd actually, you'd be constantly ahead of the game. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Every single time it appeared that there was a fallback. Whereas what we have with inflation, when. [00:30:09] Speaker A: You'Re printing money and rushing to catch. [00:30:11] Speaker B: Up, wages are always the last thing to move. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Wages, salaries, they are literally refer. Even in shit fiat economics, they are referred to as sticky prices because they. [00:30:22] Speaker B: Are the slowest moving, longest contractual obligations in the economy. Therefore, it's weird and it's, it's a difficult thing to change them. [00:30:31] Speaker A: It's extremely easy to change the price of a coffee in five hours, change the price of gas. You can see it happen live. You can pull into the gas station and watch that thing tick up a penny, two pennies. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Like they change it immediately as soon. [00:30:47] Speaker A: As the commodity changes that they have. [00:30:48] Speaker B: To purchase, the price of the good changes. Your wages will take a year to catch up to that at best, if you're lucky, which means that you are always racing back to zero under inflation, under a fiat system, whereas literally the exact opposite occurs. Your wages stay where they are for a year while the price ticks down during inflation, which means that you are. [00:31:16] Speaker A: In a permanently ahead of the game. Even if you do nothing, even if you do not change or better your. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Situation, you are benefiting. [00:31:25] Speaker A: It's literally, it's literally the perfect analogy are those stupid sidewalks in the airport is Fiat is going the wrong way on the sidewalk at all times. And if you stop or do anything. [00:31:39] Speaker B: If you're not moving forward, you are literally moving backwards. And you only get to move genuinely forward, forward in space, in a realistic. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Sense, if you are running faster than the moving sidewalk is going the other way. And you also don't know how fast. [00:31:55] Speaker B: It'S going to be moving at any one point a time. One. [00:31:57] Speaker A: One point in time. [00:31:58] Speaker B: It'll just get really fast suddenly and you have to sprint. [00:32:01] Speaker A: Whereas Bitcoin or just sound money in general is literally on the moving sidewalk that is moving in the direction that you're supposed to be going. So if you are walking forward, you're making real progress. And if you aren't walking forward, you're still making progress because everybody else is. And you get to share it with the foundation of the money. It's so crazy. It literally is the difference between society at each other's throats, competing for resources that are constantly, constantly depleting or society in cooperation and everybody benefiting at the same fucking time. It is the exact same thing that everybody pontificates and gives some bullshit speech about how we're going to make society have everybody work together and then they do it by slitting each other's throats and putting a gun to your head and stealing all your shit. And it's like, well, if you just stop fucking with everything and putting fraud at the base of the entire system, well, guess what? It would just happen naturally. Because turns out bitcoin points out the obvious. Things are a whole lot better if we just fucking cooperate. [00:32:59] Speaker F: Yeah, I love, I love the passion of the delivery guy. Like, like. And this is why I love the My2Sats videos. Because of the passion of the delivery of the message. Because you can tell that it's, it's heartfelt and like, this is. [00:33:14] Speaker B: It usually comes with cursing. I have time to bleep it out in my. [00:33:18] Speaker A: I have time to cut it out. [00:33:19] Speaker B: In my two sets. [00:33:20] Speaker F: But yeah, we don't fucking curse on this show, man. We don't fucking curse. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:27] Speaker F: So the thing is, one of the chapters in the Clown World book starts by asking the question, and this is very much tied to this whole phenomenon. It asks the question, if you practice doing something over and over again, do you usually get better at that task or worse at doing that task? And the answer is obvious. Like for most people, if they practice, they get better. Yeah, if I practice playing Beethoven on piano, I get. I might still be shit, but I'm better than I used to be. Like. And this is the thing, the follow up question to that question that nobody asks themselves is then why are prices going up then? Because if we practice, that was a. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Great way to frame it and it was like an opening paragraph or whatever just to set the stage for that whole chapter. Which one was that one? What was that? [00:34:23] Speaker F: It was one of the latter chapters, I think. But I think that's, that's the gist of it. [00:34:27] Speaker C: If you want to save in better money and you want 20,000 sats for free, right now it's about 20 bucks at $100,000 of bitcoin check out fold. Every time I swipe this card, I get 0.5%, sometimes one, sometimes even one and a half percent. I can get two, three, five, even 10% on gift cards with major merchants. Between the roundups, the gift cards, the auto stacking, the sats back on, every single swipe fold literally does all of the work for me. And it is denominated in bitcoin. And I have more savings just by using this card than like 90% of the United States normal consumer. I've got a referral link for you right here. Shout out to fold for sponsoring my work and honestly being the most important service for my being on a bitcoin standard. [00:35:17] Speaker F: So, yeah, we're gonna take the opportunity, of course, of asking you what you thought about the book and if you. What your main takeaways are and what, what, how this differs from my previous books and what, what, what, what's your. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Take on them different from previous books? [00:35:37] Speaker F: Forget that then just, just your general thoughts. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Well, I'll think on that one. I'll let that one, I'll let that one. Simmer for a minute. Maybe we'll come back to it. I love the book, obviously. Love the book. I've, I've always, I've always, like, I always had a thing for your writing and I love that Luke has been added in on this one to. To piece this together and what you said towards the. I think you said this at the end in the. The post face, if I'm not mistaken. But how like, Luke did a good job of giving it structure and, and putting it together in almost. Almost kind of a story fashion. Like. Like it. The pieces. The puzzle. Puzzle is probably the better analogy is the pieces put together really well to end up with a picture and with the picture that I think you were trying to illustrate really well and. But absolutely love the book. Probably my biggest takeaway, man, it's hard to say because I, I'm. I'm gonna mix everything with previous books. It's hard to separate out this one from the entire. The entire work. [00:36:48] Speaker F: The. [00:36:49] Speaker B: The entire set of works. But I think going back to the point that you just made about or the analogy that you just made on, if you practice at something, does it get better? Why doesn't this. Why doesn't this result in falling prices? I think one of the best things about this book is how well you've put together. And this is what I've tried really, really hard to do in my two sats videos and I want to continue to do with my two sats videos is taking something that's very obvious and attaching it to something very difficult, like very not obvious for most people. And. And you can't. You hit that. You guys hit that in basically every single chapter, right? Is you start with this is. This is the simple idea that, you know, like you're talking to the reader is like, you know this is true. You know this is true. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Wouldn't this have to follow? [00:37:52] Speaker B: How on earth have we been led to believe that it's the obvious? I mean, is it that it's the opposite when applied here, when you know this is true and boiling down to an analogy or that like, kind of pinpoint idea that makes that clear. As someone who tries to do that a lot is very difficult. I know that that is very difficult, or at least it's very difficult for me. And I try really, really hard. So that's probably my biggest takeaway with this book is, is how well I probably got like 7 or 8 like solid highlights from this book that are purple highlights, which I refer to as I'm going to come back and I'm going to post this somewhere on Twitter probably at some point. And I think pretty much every single one of them is an example of something like that where there's an extremely. A very obvious or intuitive idea that when you apply it in the right way to the larger economic idea or the, The. This is what happens in clown World. Why would that happen? How. [00:39:03] Speaker A: How could it possibly be that this. [00:39:05] Speaker B: Is naturally occurring and then breaking down in the rest of the chapter? Why it's not like this. It's just not natural. And what you've missed is that this, this incredibly important piece of the equation is turned upside down. And I think that that is. Which is funny because what you're doing is you're taking a good solid idea or a really foundational idea and you're flipping it over and then you're explaining clown world. So it's funny, you're taking the inverse of an obvious idea in order to explain why clown world exists, which is Bitcoin the inverse of Clown world. [00:39:38] Speaker F: Exactly. I mean, I can identify with so much of that. It is very difficult for me to take this simple idea and to explain a more complicated subject. But I think that's at the core of what all explanatory creative things are. Like, whether it's popular science or anything else. You have to sort of take it back to first principles and take it back, like take a helicopter view of the problem. Like this is true and this is true. So therefore. And why the fuck is it this way then? Well, it isn't, but you're pretending it is. Like, so, so, so that's. No, I, I love to hear that. It's, it's great. And it ties back to when you, when you, like in the beginning, beginning of this show, when you passionately describe them, the Friedmanish four quadrants. I realized that that's the gist of the book, really. [00:40:39] Speaker B: It's explaining that in a bunch of different ways. [00:40:41] Speaker F: It's a tldr of our book. No, it all comes down to the same. I mean, you can describe bitcoin in so many ways and you can describe the underlying problem in so many ways, but at the end of the day, it's the same underlying problem that we are being stolen from by counterfeiters. And if we weren't, then we would all be better off and at an ever accelerating pace, which is what bitcoin has so blatantly pointed out to everyone who has understood it to a sufficient degree. And no, that's. That's it. [00:41:28] Speaker B: If I had to, if I had to say for my. My biggest takeaway on how it's different from your other works is I think each chapter like, like with both sovereignty and math through mathematics and independence. Independence reimagined. I feel like, because these are more bitcoin specific rather than the praxeology book is, you do a good job of hitting like main ideas for each chapter. But I think these are tied together in this way, and this is probably Luke's fault is these are tied together in a sequence better where not only does each chapter cover like the ground of a really strong idea, but each chapter builds on the last one and then consecutively, you know, kind of like a, you know, your final exam is all of them. Like, it does a good job of building up as you read rather than having standalone and then just trying to wrap up or something. You know, maybe like that's probably the biggest takeaway on how it's different or how it felt different while I was reading it. [00:42:42] Speaker F: Oh, very happy to hear that. Because that was the main, like one of our main goals with this one. It was to make it more coherent. So. So no, very, very happy to hear that. [00:42:53] Speaker B: I'm glad I got to do the audio, man, as always. [00:42:56] Speaker F: I'm super happy you did. Speaking of bitcoin and more specifically Bitcoin and this give a shit matrix and everything. Like, I'm curious to take with your take on the. The whole spam debate and the attack vectors on Bitcoin and attacks on layer twos and whatever. Like, because for myself I've become more and more of a monetary maximalist and I even cringe when I hear this, that they're timestamping the Guatemala election on. On the time chain. Don't do that. This shouldn't be filled with anything arbitrary. [00:43:35] Speaker B: Like, I would say that's different because the, the purpose of the global timestamp server is literally just to have an order of events, like as a chronological history and explicitly the entire thing is a hash. Which means that basically the transaction isn't even bigger than just a normal transaction. Like, the way the only thing, like simple. The way simple proof is working with Carlinos and everything that they're doing is the most efficient means of getting that value out of it possible. And like, literally you're talking about tens of thousands in this tree of hashes that exist in one hash. Like, and it is stamped one time, like that is the only way. And it gives you all of the proof that you could possibly need for anything underneath that, as soon as you start extending this out to things like selling constellations in the sky, which is the equivalent of stamping a picture JPEG into a, into a blockchain and then selling it to somebody like they own it, like, it becomes so unbelievably both useless because it doesn't even give, it doesn't even give the, the actual capability or the actual utility that it supposedly is selling. [00:44:57] Speaker A: Like, it doesn't even exist. [00:44:58] Speaker B: You can't own something in the blockchain. It doesn't move with you. [00:45:02] Speaker A: It doesn't. [00:45:03] Speaker B: You don't transact the JPEG and then. [00:45:05] Speaker A: Put the JPEG somewhere else. You literally, Literally there is no connection to. [00:45:09] Speaker B: It is. [00:45:09] Speaker A: It is like selling somebody the moon. [00:45:13] Speaker B: I just mean, like, I sold you the moon. You could just as well just say. [00:45:17] Speaker A: Well, I'm going to do it this. [00:45:18] Speaker B: Way and I'm going to sell you the moon too. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Like, you could have somebody else do it. [00:45:21] Speaker B: And they're just like, oh, well, I accept this guy's moon. This guy says I own the moon. It's like, well, the other guy says I own the moon. [00:45:28] Speaker A: It's like, well, it just exists there. It's on everybody's blockchain. I can look it up on my computer. It's on my node whether I want it to be there or not. I wish I could delete it. [00:45:38] Speaker F: Yeah, that's the thing. You're not only selling the star in the Andromeda galaxy, you're also forcing people to look at it. Like, you're forcing people to aim their telescopes at that specific start it. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Forcing people to, to store it for, for no reason. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Like, you just, you're just. It's so, it's so nonsensical the way I still, I still love my analogy and I haven't heard anybody even in support of it to, to argue against the analogy, which I find interesting. And I think it's a perfect, A. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Perfect example is it's pooping in the park. [00:46:13] Speaker B: It's taking a public space and wasting resources and making somebody else have to. [00:46:17] Speaker A: Clean up your shit. [00:46:19] Speaker B: That's, that's what it is in my opinion. [00:46:21] Speaker A: Now, in the context of like, filtering. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Like, if you want to filter your mempool or your node and you don't want to include it in your mining blocks, more power to you. 100. In fact, I'm, I'll be. When I turn the miners on for the winter, I'll be pointing it at ocean, the ocean pool. So, but at the same time, I don't think there's a concrete way. All you can do is disincentivize and you can't really stop it because, you know, the whole idea is if mining is decentralized, you won't really be able to stop it. If Mempool policy is decentralized. You won't really be able to stop it. And it'll get in and it's whatever. They'll pay fees and it's not, it's not in the end of the world. But I mean, I'm with you. I'm a monetary maximalist. It's a global decentralized monetary network. The idea of using it, of cramming, another, another analogy. I like the pooping in the park, but I think it also kind of obscures the value of it because, you know, park is just a nice place to have. It's not a necessity. Whereas Bitcoin is a necessity. But like, like sound money is a. Does society live or die? Kind of thing on a long enough timeline. And so it's like, imagine is that you had a machine that could feed, that could, in some incredibly unique and perfect way, it could feed people who were hungry. But you have an extremely limited space, an extremely limited capacity for people to move to, to operate this machinery. But it turns out that if you kind of like flip the machine on its side and run it through like 10 times, that would have been for feeding people. Somehow you can make a photocopy of your ass and you can get a printed picture of your ass. And then while people are in line trying to get food, a whole bunch of people crowd in line so that they can get photocopies of their ass from the really important machine. And the ass photocopy is more valuable. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Because it's through this machine that they. [00:48:36] Speaker B: Can prove and then they brag about this. Literally took 10 times as many resources to get this picture of my ass. And then I'm going to sell it. I'm going to sell it because look how, look how I wasted the resources of this incredible, like, monumental machine that we have created. And everybody in line waiting to eat is standing there going, why the am I in line behind this? Why is this in. Why am I waiting to eat? Because of this dumb piece of photocopying his ass. And that's essentially what it does. Because this is a global bidding war for space in this, in this machine. And I think to brag, it's literally you're taking a dump in a park and then you're taking a selfie with it, and then you're being like, look how cool I am. And somebody else has to come by and clean that up because you clearly, not only are you a poor steward, you're an arrogant, poor steward of our collective resources. This is a public good. I mean, in it as cleanly as I can say it. Go yourself. Like, there's nothing I can do about it. And you're still going to go take a picture of you with a shit. But I'm going to, I'm. I will do whatever I can to make you feel like a piece of shit because you are worth less than the piece of shit that you said you, you crapped out in the park and then took a selfie with. [00:50:04] Speaker F: Yeah, couldn't agree more. Like. And as you say, there's very little one can do on a technical level except, you know, point your, your miners at the ocean or something. Something similar. Something at least transparent. But I would say the thing we can do is educate people. And one of the more important things here is to educate people on why the satoshi is totally different from anything else on the Internet. Because it doesn't live on the Internet, it doesn't exist on the Internet and it exists in people's heads. At the end of the day, that's where the power of moving the satoshi resides. The satoshi is just a measurement stick. So my analogy is like there is no such thing as a rare satoshi. Just as like a centimeter does not become more rare just because I measure my dick with it. And that's what these people are doing and forcing everyone to look at their dick measurements. [00:51:06] Speaker A: It's about right. [00:51:07] Speaker B: That sounds about right. Yeah. So that's. [00:51:11] Speaker F: No, you're American. I mean, inches. And you know, by the way, why a penis can never get longer than 12 inches? [00:51:20] Speaker B: I, I don't know. Luke apparently does it becomes a foot. [00:51:26] Speaker D: Yeah, I'd heard this one a few times. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Oh man, that is, that is, that is dad joke. That's dad joke perfected. [00:51:37] Speaker D: You know, the, the one thing on, on this particular front that, that I think, I mean, I agree about the education is the, is the most important thing here. But what, what I don't, what I don't like is when, when people on Twitter and I mean I, I, I've pretty much switched off Twitter and gone gone pretty pretty much. I only scroll noster these days and. [00:51:57] Speaker B: That'S pretty much same. [00:51:58] Speaker D: Yeah, it's been good for my mental health, man. Like, seriously. But, but, but just to, just to wrap this up before maybe we switch over to Nostr for a bit. The, the thing is when, when there's, there's some people in the Twitter space that, that basically make fun of anyone who, who even advocates for doing stuff like what ocean is doing. Like, it's not going to make Any difference? And oh, look, Filter Bros. [00:52:21] Speaker B: The fees are low. [00:52:22] Speaker D: And it's like, well, no, but that's, that's not going to do it. Exactly. And like, it's, it's permissionless. And I mean, I love that they. [00:52:30] Speaker B: Can feel good about themselves if they want. [00:52:32] Speaker D: Yeah. And then there's the. There's been these breakdowns. Like, Bob Burnett has. Has gone and looked at the, the. The fees that he. He took in from. From comparing like an FPPS pool, apparently a couple of FPPS pools and he didn't name them. He's not naming names. And Ocean. And the Ocean miners paid out more over that, that period of time. And it wasn't a short period of time either. So it's like there's something, there's something here. Mining pool transparency, I think that is, is kind of the real issue here. Get everyone out into the open, get everything out into the open and everything's done in a transparent way. Then, then maybe we can all put cards on the table and if you want to go mine your dick butts like, okay, fine, I'm not going to like you. But. But it is the system as it exists. And so, you know, Marathon can go mine and M. And they're allowed to currently. I wish it weren't the case, but since there's basically no alternative then to basically a hard fork, as I understand it, we're stuck with the system. [00:53:35] Speaker A: So it's not 100% sure there is. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Even like a hard fork fix because I think it would just kind of change the methodology that would have to be applied in order to get it to work. But I think in a lot of ways it's just kind of axiomatic that there's going to be ways to like, because anybody who is making a block can construct the way the transactions go together. [00:54:08] Speaker D: Knut, what are you doing over there? [00:54:10] Speaker F: I'm stamping my seed. Everyone tells me I should. It's good for bitcoin security and whatnot, and that I should go balls deep into bitcoin security. So I'm stamping. [00:54:22] Speaker D: You don't do it like that, Knut. [00:54:23] Speaker E: You don't stamp that seed. [00:54:25] Speaker B: You stamp your seed phrase. [00:54:26] Speaker F: What? [00:54:27] Speaker B: Your seed phrase. [00:54:29] Speaker F: Oh, so that's what these things are for. All of this stuff that they sent me, like. Oh, oh, I get it now. [00:54:36] Speaker B: That's exactly right, Knut. And you can get everything you need. [00:54:39] Speaker D: To stamp your seed [email protected] and be. [00:54:42] Speaker B: Sure to check out our limited edition. [00:54:44] Speaker D: Everything divided by 21 million titanium seed plate and Use code infinity at checkout for 15% off. [00:54:49] Speaker F: That's fantastic. And it hurts way less. [00:54:53] Speaker E: This show is brought to you by the Bitcoin Advisor, your premier destination for professional bitcoin management. [00:54:58] Speaker F: Yeah. So if you want help with your bitcoin inheritance planning or anything like that, you can call us or send us a dm. Because we're bitcoin advisors. [00:55:06] Speaker E: Exactly. They've been serving bitcoin clients since 2016 and they offer a top notch bitcoin concierge service including collaborative custody and estate planning. We're on the Bitcoin Advisor team ourselves because we believe 100% in what they're doing. And, and we're happy to tell you more about the Bitcoin Advisor on a call. [00:55:21] Speaker F: So check out the bitcoinadvisor.com or just simply shoot us a DM for some Bitcoin advice. Hey, dear listener, don't forget to like subscribe and brush your teeth. [00:55:30] Speaker E: And if you're enjoying the show, the best way you can help us out is spreading the word on your favorite social media platform. Ours is Nostr. The show is going Nostr first hosting the episodes on Nostr one day early. And if you'd like to support the show, the easiest way to do that is to send us a zap on Nostr, use a value for value podcasting app to send us a boost or pick something up from the bitcoin Infinity store. We appreciate the support. [00:55:52] Speaker F: Yeah, go, go click. Like go click subscribe and go brush your teeth now. [00:55:58] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the, the, the last point that I had on, on the sort of the, the ordinals topic was there are like two specific bugs that are actually being exploited though, like, for, for, for some of these things. Like it's this, this false if thing like this just complete failure in logic that could just get sewn up and a lot of this stuff can't happen. And then Stamps is exploiting something else like this bare multi sig thing. And it's so, so stamps is the. [00:56:32] Speaker B: Worst because it, because it's explicitly. And what's crazy is that they created it because like that was. One of the things that like really got me is that they were legitimately bragging about the fact that they found something that is worse and that was its only value is that they. It's kind of like. It's kind of like finding out that if you ate a lot of Taco Bell, it's a whole lot harder to clean up the poop out of the park and it's like look, I can make diarrhea in the park and, and this one's, this one's even more difficult. And now I'm gonna take a selfie with this one and the, the stamps permanently bloat the UTXO set and there's not really anything to be done about it except for, I mean, I guess, I guess at some point, I guess they're identifiable. So maybe you could just prune from your utx like manually prune on the client side if I'm not mistaken. But regardless, regardless. It's the interesting thing about the whole FPPs versus Ocean and I talked with Mechanic a lot about this and it's kind of like mind blowing is the FPPs is them just like basically apparently giving the bare minimum of what they think they'll have to pay out and their spread is a lot bigger than they actually say it is. And Ocean, I think it's a misunderstanding as well to just say that oh, you use Ocean because you want to filter. No, you use Ocean because you want to be able to choose. It's because you actually want to be able to construct the block template whereas you're just doing whatever the mining pool wants to do in the other situation like Ocean. By the. They've set it up now that you can just choose. You can, you can still mine ordinals and well, the ordinals is not the thing you can mine. Inscriptions and stamps and you know, whatever if you want, they have a filter for you. Like they're not even if you want to use theirs, the default filter or the default template is with the filter. [00:58:43] Speaker A: They're not even telling you that you. [00:58:44] Speaker B: Can'T or enforcing it on anybody. They're literally just trying to decentralize this process so that people can choose because they think if people can choose, most will choose to shockingly or most will choose to do the filters. And the surprising fact of that is that you still end up making a higher payout with Ocean because Ocean just isn't trying to screw you. The, the payouts are just, are just probabilistic. They're, they're based on the mining itself and it's, it's more random but it ends up being significant. Like some of the stats, even for as small as they still are to the point that he said he was talking to a. And I think he mentioned this in the first round table maybe, but he was talking to a miner who is using them, A A larger miner who is using them. And he asked, it's like, well, could you share this publicly or whatever because they were making a pretty significant percentage above what they were making with the others. And says, would you, you know, be willing to share this out? And he said, sorry, but no, I don't want to tell other people because the gap will probably go away. Like says I'm making more because other people don't know about this right now. So I don't really have any good reason to spread the word on the fact that I have x percent more by using this. And, and he, he, he said, you know, for the sake of privacy, I don't want to tell who that is. But that's, that's an, that's an interesting point. So, but I'll be turning my miners to, I mean I've set up with ocean, whatever. I've just, it's just been too damn hot to run the things in the house. [01:00:31] Speaker F: This is so damn interesting, like from so many perspectives. I guess the devil's advocate thing on the stamps would be that bitcoin thrives when attacked. Like we should attack it from all such vectors and let's see what happens. So maybe this is the price we have to pay to get to a. [01:00:49] Speaker B: Point of decentralized block templates. Yeah, that would be great. [01:00:52] Speaker F: Exactly. And maybe the trade off it was worth. Only time can tell. But it's also the thing. One thing that has bothered me when thinking about the game theory and attack vectors and such is that you have this among bitcoiners that we're all incentivized to. We're not incentivized to be violent, to aggressive against one another. Because when you can't know, you cannot know how many bitcoins another person has. It's impossible. And therefore attacking that person is always the, the worst choice that if you have to choose between that and providing something of value back. So you extract the bitcoin by providing value back. So, so that's how it's so beautiful and promotes world peace and stuff. But it's not true for miners. Miners actually have an incentive, at least theoretically to attack one another. And this is like, am I getting this wrong? Is this, is there a game theoretical thing here that I'm missing? Or are miners incentivized to, you know, covertly attack one another, blow up, go into someone else's mining facility in a ninja suit and blow it up and blame the third miner? Like, what are you, what's guys take? [01:02:09] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, probably. Yeah, because miners are in, they are not in competition with the network. They are incentivized to protect the network because the network defends and owns their payout or, or you know, creates the rules and the value of how they get compensated. But they are in competition with each other in a zero sum game where the, the output versus the input is explicitly limited and, and is purely competitive. Which is exactly why you. It is. It is critical for the, the ecosystem or the mining function itself to be as purely open as possible and as purely probabilistic as possible that there is no, you know, MEV advantage or out of band like gaming of the system that can be done with how you order transactions or in reordering transactions that have already been ordered, etc. Where you can make more money on. And this is why, you know, expressivity in Bitcoin is actually potential and pretty significant risk is that more capital could be made or a significant portion of the capital could be made in just altering how transactions get into Bitcoin rather than just kind of the very naive assumption of grab the thing with the most fee and stick it in the top of your block, you know. And I actually just read a piece called Stop Calling it MEV by Matt Corallo, which I think does a good job of breaking down the concept, but it is very obscure. It's still really hard to kind of like pin. Pin down exactly what is meant. And I think the best thing is just to use Ethereum as a comparison. And one of the things that got me about Ethereum, I almost, I didn't believe it to the point like I thought it was just bud from bitcoiners that was exaggerated because you know, it's easy to just like make up something that's really bad about Ethereum because Ethereum is garbage and it, the whole thing started as a scam, but I wanted to temper it and be like no, there's no way this is true. This is like actually how it works. But staking is permissioned and I don't think people realize that is that the. [01:04:49] Speaker A: Current stakers have to allow you in. Like, which is so fundamental. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Like. [01:04:59] Speaker A: I don't know how they could. [01:05:01] Speaker B: Possibly call that decentralized. Like if I am mining in my basement, I don't have to get somebody. [01:05:10] Speaker A: Else to validate that those hashes are real. [01:05:13] Speaker B: You know, like that's one of the. [01:05:14] Speaker A: Most like core fundamental pieces of the. [01:05:18] Speaker B: Entire puzzle of this being a global permissionless system. [01:05:22] Speaker A: But not only do you have to. [01:05:24] Speaker B: Have like, was it 32,000 is some crazy amount of Ethereum to stake at all, but you can't just like turn. [01:05:31] Speaker A: It on you have to get all of, and you just have to assume. [01:05:34] Speaker B: That all of the other stakers are. [01:05:36] Speaker A: Going to be, are going to be like, yeah, sure, in a zero sum competitive environment that they're going to turn. [01:05:41] Speaker B: You, they're going to add you to the mix, they're going to dilute their portion of it by adding a new staker and that's never going to go sideways. That'll never work out, that'll never go bad. [01:05:52] Speaker A: I just, I couldn't believe it. [01:05:54] Speaker B: I could not believe it. I still wanna, I still wanna think that I'm wrong but nobody's contested me on that. [01:06:02] Speaker F: It's, it sounds like politics like, like very much the nations and it sounds like, like at least with a bank, you, you and the bank and the government are in a 2 out of 3 multi sig situation, right? So if, if you and the bank decide that money is yours then well I, I guess the government could shut you down anyway. But if I was about to say. [01:06:23] Speaker B: It'S a, it's a two out of three with a one with a master key. So the, the government, there, there is a two out of three relationship but there is also a backdoor key from the government that can just basically nix all of it. So it's, it's kind of like a hierarchy of keys and it's mostly an abstracted two out of three that doesn't really exist. But I see what you mean. I see what you mean. [01:06:52] Speaker F: But it's still better than Ethereum. That's where I'm getting. [01:06:55] Speaker B: But it's still better than Ethereum. [01:06:58] Speaker F: That's funny. Ethereum is cubed. [01:07:05] Speaker B: I still just can't believe. I still just can't get, get past the 70 pre mine. I just can't believe. [01:07:10] Speaker F: I can't, I can't believe so many people fell for it and for such a long time and people still fall for it like they still think there's. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Some value in that and you know, so like people in Ethereum are like nobody cares about that anymore. And it's like I don't care if nobody cares about that anymore. [01:07:26] Speaker F: Like that's the problem. [01:07:28] Speaker A: Do you not understand that doesn't change the reality. That doesn't change what it means. That's like saying nobody cares about fiat money. Well of course they don't because they don't understand it. But it still has consequences. It still means what it means. You could like it's such an appeal to, it's like a bandwagon appeal. It's like, well nobody cares it's like, it's like if we all lived in a giant building and the entire floor was the, the bottom floor in the foundation was just chock full of termites. [01:07:59] Speaker B: But everything seemed fine and everybody's going around the building, it's like no big deal. And then I'd be like dude, this whole thing is literally going to collapse. [01:08:07] Speaker A: Like this thing is just chopped. Like the, the joists are rotten. This whole thing is going to fall and everybody's going to die. And you were like well we took. [01:08:14] Speaker B: A poll and nobody cares. Like doesn't fucking mean anything. [01:08:20] Speaker A: Like that doesn't change anything about what I said. Like answer the problem, you know, like holy crap. Like how stupid, how completely irrelevant could you. I don't give. Who gives a shit about how many people give a shit about it. You have a 70% pre mine in a system that has now gone proof of stake with which means they own the whole thing. Before anything ever got started, before anybody was ever able to utilize or do anything with it, there was a private sale of 70% of the tokens that are still in basically the starting crew's pockets and they remain there. And then they moved it to proof of stake where they get to order all of the transactions and build all the blocks and have say over what the rules are. What I don't if nobody understands that in your ethereum, that's not a good thing. That's not a defense of it. That's just showing how bad it is and how stupid everybody is about what decentralization means and why any of this exists in the first place. On top of the fact that by the way we made it permissioned so that if you don't get our approval. [01:09:24] Speaker B: You don't even get to play the game. [01:09:27] Speaker A: Just holy wow. [01:09:29] Speaker B: It just absolutely mind boggling sometimes. [01:09:33] Speaker A: Nobody cares like what the fuck. [01:09:36] Speaker F: But are there any shitcoiners left? I mean of course there are scammers left that try to do shitcoins on bitcoin and whatever and the other scams. But like the pure shitcoiner, like back in 2017 when I've started this token, blah blah blah, does that still happen? I mean I very rarely see them anymore. I see a lot of bots and people with ETH in their Twitter handles and stuff, but that's mainly, mainly bots. I think there's a bunch of ETH. [01:10:06] Speaker B: Devoutists still and there's a handful of explicit coins that mostly from some utility mindset failing to recognize that these are all monetary instruments and this is the only thing that they can be. And the idea of a utility token is nonsense. And you're not going to get away with oh my single utility is going to outcompete the base case of money and trust. Because that's, that's not how any of this works. But it's okay. Ignorance is the norm. [01:10:43] Speaker F: No, the utility is in an Excel sheet like as a spreadsheet. Yeah. And you don't need all the other stuff. Yeah, yeah. [01:10:50] Speaker B: But Ethereum, granted, I haven't done like a deep dive. I like there were times where I tried to spend a couple of weeks like really digging into and trying to like sushi swap stuff just for the sake of exploring mostly as shitcoin insider homework, but I haven't done it in a really long time. But it does seem that a strong base of the, of the quote unquote community is still there, but external to that. And I think we're seeing so much of the fervor die down because I mean at the end of the day there's two, there's two major problems. There's two major problems with the, the shitcoin casino world is one is that the fundamental utility token thesis is self defeating. So the over like the most foundational and the most widespread mentality was diversity or excuse me, diversify is that we need to. Some of these other things might have value or this might have some single utility. And so they split it up among the most prominent of the cryptos and they hold Bitcoin too. Whereas the bitcoin philosophy was always the strongest foundation of the bitcoin philosophy was Bitcoin only. This is changing sound money and it makes no sense to have anything else. From just that standpoint, you can deduce that bitcoin wins because inevitably crypto is spreading itself thin and bitcoin is staying. Like there are way, way, way, way more bitcoiners who hold no shit coins, no tokens whatsoever, and only hold bitcoin. Then there are Eth, Monero, Litecoin, whatever, who hold only those coins and don't hold Bitcoin. All of the Token holders, like 99% of the token holders hold Bitcoin, whereas the reverse is not true. And in fact everybody who is even holding ETH because it's got smart contracts. [01:13:13] Speaker A: Is also holding Solana, which means the. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Economic network effects are inevitably in Bitcoin's favor. And they are still aligned with Bitcoin because they are still going to hold Bitcoin because bitcoin is going to continue to succeed. That is the monetary network effects. That is the, that is the problem of. Or the, the extreme condition of value being exclusive, that you cannot hold value in two things at the exact same time. It is always a trade off of which one is the better hold of value. Which means that the monetary good that is the best at monetary trust and as a monetary foundation is just going to win and all the other ones are going to trend towards zero. [01:13:58] Speaker F: Yeah, it's like utility value is like holding McDonald's coupons instead of holding dollars, like. [01:14:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:07] Speaker F: And, and pretending that they will be valued more valuable in the long run. [01:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And then the other, the other major disconnect is the fact that, you know, we were all like smart contracts and. [01:14:20] Speaker A: We'Re gonna be able to design everything, we're gonna be able to put everything. [01:14:23] Speaker B: On the blockchain and all this stuff. And then it turns out that the like 90% of the value of every bit of this stuff was just in a shitcoin casino. It was, you know, it's like they've got like 30 different decentralized exchanges. And what do all of those decentralized exchanges do? They just trade. They just swap shit coins. Which means that the, of all the utility tokens, essentially the core underlying utility of all of these things was just to gamble and trade between them all. And there has been no other strong like genuine market staying power for any other use case. [01:15:05] Speaker A: Like you got like NFTs and stuff. [01:15:06] Speaker B: And they're like a, they're like a blip in the pan for like two months and then they, they trail off and nobody really cares about it. Like, some people spent like millions of dollars on a stupid monkey picture and now they're going for like 200 bucks. You know, I mean, like, talk about like 99.999% collapse in a lot of this stuff. It exists purely in the hype cycle. And then it falls to the 1/100, 1/1000 of a market did it actually appear to be, which is the market that it actually is. Which means that the only thing that keeps up the utility tokens of the quote unquote smart contracts is the hype cycles of the random chit coins and utility tokens. And so if you don't have another. [01:15:50] Speaker A: Massive hype cycle, there's no reason for. [01:15:53] Speaker B: You'Re decentralized swapping all over the place because you can't swap anything of real value. You're not swapping, you're not paying for. [01:16:00] Speaker A: Cars, and you're not paying for like real things in the real world. You're swapping Sushi Token for Doge Token and, and Ethereum and Solana. [01:16:10] Speaker F: Speaking of swapping sushiswap sounds like a good name for a swingers club, don't you think? [01:16:15] Speaker B: Hey, that's not a bad idea. No, I think you're on to something. I think you're onto something. Is that, is that one of your past times? [01:16:24] Speaker F: If it was, it would probably be kept a secret. Yes. [01:16:30] Speaker B: I would talk about it less, not more. [01:16:33] Speaker D: One of the funny things about, about kind of talking about shitcoins generally eth. All this stuff. It feels weird to even say it. It's like you go, you go down the rabbit hole and you go like all the way maxi and everything and, and it's just like you stop thinking about this stuff after a certain point. It like I'm remembering my journey down the rabbit hole and how I became fully convinced and I mean like I went from watching the Sailor series and on Breedlove and like, like that got me. That convinced me about bitcoin. But I still had my portfolio of shitcoins For a while I was only acquiring bitcoin, but I still couldn't get over little things like the, the proof of stake thing or mining or whatever it is. I just couldn't get over it. Diversification, as we say. Like, it, it's, it's a, it's a hard process, I think, actually going down the rabbit hole and completely avoiding all of the crypto stuff. But like, I think, I think one thing to remember is it's still super important. Across the world there are tons of people, there's way more people who, who think about crypto and, and think it's just a thing to invest in and don't even give it a second thought. Yeah, then. Then there are people. [01:17:48] Speaker B: Just another thing in the stock market, basically. [01:17:50] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, I mean, I think educating people is still really important. And, and so, I mean, we'll still. [01:17:58] Speaker B: Have a few cycles, I think. Yeah, yeah, cycles. [01:18:02] Speaker D: It's tough to, it's tough to, to go there, but I think, I think we need to, we need to, to bitcoin maxis need to, to be able to go there and say, yeah, this is why this is actually different. The, the, the mechanism of just sort of ignoring it all, like completely walling off from the crypto ecosystem. That's, that's good in one sense and being like totally toxic and not letting any of that creep into bitcoin, of course. But it also does create this echo chamber where maybe the voice of bitcoin doesn't actually make it out into the wider consciousness. And I think this is something that bitcoin is, is going to need to improve on as, as we go to reach more people in a more timely manner. [01:18:45] Speaker B: No, I totally agree. It comes off more and I think it's used like that in the community. Like, you know, as much as, like, I would never talk to people in the crypto space. To the degree that I've had this conversation here. I've been very, very mean, you know, in this, in the sense of if I was talking to somebody who was highly involved in it. But the arguments are like, I think just presenting the argument, it comes off as way, way too defensive to. And I think we've gone through this era of thinking that because we think something is a scam or nonsense that there's, there's been this whole thing of like, don't platform these people and like, don't. And I'm just like, stop caring so much. Stop caring so much. And I've gotten to the point where I just, I just don't, you know, like, I'll give my opinion and I, you know, I won't hold back, but I also have no problem talking to somebody in crypto or going on their show or going. If I got invited to a crypto. [01:19:56] Speaker A: Conference, I'd be pretty stoked. [01:19:57] Speaker B: I'd be like, well, here's an audience that actually really, really needs to hear this. You know, I think I have absolutely nothing against that and I also have no bad blood. I, I, as much as I will, I will say ETH is an absolute scam and it is nonsense. And there are huge problems that are way more fundamental than whether or not your layer 2 roll ups are working or not. I just, like, I don't, I don't care about your layer two if your layer one is dog. [01:20:24] Speaker A: But that's aside is like, I'm not. [01:20:31] Speaker B: Like, I, I held chit coins. You know, I traded, I traded coins. [01:20:34] Speaker A: For like a long time. [01:20:35] Speaker B: I was, God, I was, I was certain I was going to make more Bitcoin in the 2017 like hype cycle, like the real hype cycle for this. And it was wild. I actually had a shitcoin play that went so well, so well a span. And then I watched it die. And I learned my lesson and I lost my bitcoin and I realized I, I identified the excuses I was giving myself for. I cannot believe I didn't take out my principal. I cannot believe I didn't take God bless It's so awful. But you know, hindsight, hindsight's 25, 20, 2010. That's not 20 20. It's like, it seems it's way better than that. But I, how could I possibly fault somebody else if I didn't? You know what I mean? Like, and I think part of it's, you know, wanting to judge yourself is like, I want to be mad at me from 2017, but I learned like a lot of really great lessons from that. And I don't want to be overly defensive or like, I just, I just don't care anymore. And I also, as much as I'll explain to people who need to hear it or that I think need to hear it. [01:21:56] Speaker A: I also find that just. [01:21:57] Speaker B: With most people learn through time and most people learn the hard way and it's just like, all right, you know, we'll really learn it if we all learn it the hard way. So I'll just leave the hard way on the table and I won't. And if you're just gonna get mad at me because I told you not to do it, be my guest. Be my guest. And I'll just keep putting out episodes and if you ever want to come back and you know, maybe, maybe you'll just be butt hurt forever and you know, you always just permanently lose money, but that's up to you. Do you want to learn? Do you want to take a lesson from it and actually change something? Or do you want to just write a book? How about how everybody else is wrong and you know, and just be infinitely butt hurt about it and convinced that the only reason that you didn't succeed or that your shitcoin didn't succeed is because everybody else doesn't understand it and the whole world is wrong. Not me. Not me. [01:22:57] Speaker F: The fact that NOSTR exists now is, is a very good thing from a perspective that few understand. And this is that the all of these young 180 IQ programmers who, who sit in their basements and, and worry about things like roll ups not working on layer two on some they can now develop noster things instead of spending their time and energy on, on fucking shitcoin stuff because so many decentralized social. [01:23:26] Speaker B: Media shit coins were there. [01:23:28] Speaker A: How many? [01:23:28] Speaker F: Yeah, I don't know. But there was this one, right? Like steam. [01:23:33] Speaker A: Steam it? [01:23:33] Speaker F: Yeah. Yeah, it's awful. And, and I, I think that had it like a double token. So you had, you had to have one token to get the other or something? [01:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Was that the one that had the hostile takeover from Tron from Justin Son. Was that Steven? [01:23:50] Speaker F: I don't remember. I don't know. [01:23:52] Speaker B: But he went and he like, bought up like more than half of it and then basically just like dominated the whole thing. [01:23:57] Speaker F: Which wasn't. Don't Quan. [01:24:01] Speaker B: It was. [01:24:02] Speaker A: It was Justin Suntron. It was Justin Suntron. [01:24:06] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that's. That's who it was. I think it was Steemit. I think it was Steam it. I'll have to look that up. [01:24:12] Speaker F: Maybe. Yeah. But, but, but you know the type, right? This super nerd that is extremely intelligent in one specific field, usually programming, and doesn't care about networking, it doesn't care about economics. And there's a lot of those. There were a lot of those that fell for the ether thing and started going deep into, oh, this is a challenge. I need to program this stuff. Not realizing that it's castle made of sand, that it's built on nothing. It's a giant nothing burger. And what they're serving with the nothing burger is code Salad. [01:24:50] Speaker B: It's nothing Code salad. Oh, it is truly the impossible burger of bitcoin steak. [01:25:00] Speaker F: Impossible Whopper. [01:25:01] Speaker D: Yes. [01:25:02] Speaker B: Yeah, but yeah, and I agree with Luke on that is that it was a. It was a dumb strategy and it. And makes bitcoiners look weak to just. It makes it look like they care too much about shitcoins as opposed to not at all. You know, it's like it literally treats. Treats them like they're a threat. You know, is to be like, you don't. Don't you ever talk to them and don't you ever do that. [01:25:31] Speaker A: You're just like, I can't believe you're a corner. [01:25:33] Speaker B: You're banished forever and all this stuff. And it's just like, why do you care so much? Why do you care so much? Just stop caring like everything's going great in bitcoin. I've been zapping people on Nasir 10 times a day. I got 10 different lightning wallets that all do different things. Bolt 12 just got implemented, like officially. So now we got subscriptions, pay as you go. We got offers and stuff built in. You can have a permanent like quote unquote address or a permanent invoice that other people can use to make invoices to pay you so that you can just post it like, like a bitcoin address. You can now have a quote unquote lightning address. It's non custodial. And that's just. And that's just on lightning and Lightning's Been killing it. Like I use it. It's my main mode of pay. I do so many different transactions. I've been on a bitcoin standard for a couple of years now where. Well I guess slowly transitioning to a. Everything comes in. In bitcoin and then I use the dollar as my main payment network and things are going good and bitcoin's up where you know, all time highs, pretty much chilling. Chilling around $60,000, no big deal. 58K gain for life. [01:26:51] Speaker F: No, it's great. Just a final point on the giving a platform to shitcoiners and stuff. The thing I think we shouldn't stop doing though is calling out bullshit and being toxic. Like oh yeah, that's not point out when, when, when someone else is giving a platform to an obvious scammer. When pointing out when, when there's a manufactured debate about something that shouldn't be a debate at all. Like it's like what public service news media outlets do all the time. They create a debate about something that is missing the underlying problem and it's not addressing the interesting stuff but they're making it seem like this arbitrary bullshit is what we ought to be talking about. Ironically enough, that's what we spent some part of this conversation talking about, you know, shitcoins on bitcoin and the ordinals on stamps and shitcoins. But that whole debate is a nothing burger in itself. It's manufactured and it's that expression don't ever wrestle with a pig because you both get dirty and the pig likes it. [01:28:01] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the thing. [01:28:04] Speaker F: We're wrestling with pigs. So what I do mostly it's just ignore chit coiners and point out unlike try to educate and try to stay toxic. But, but without calling out names. I don't think you should like give people free promotion by engaging in debates if you can avoid it. But you can. What you can attack though is the bad ideas and you can point out how bad the bad ideas are. [01:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah, if, if you debate is debate from the, the. The principle debate from the foundation. Like because that's the only. Otherwise you're arguing within their framing. Argue within the bitcoin frame. Like, like don't give them the assumption that their, their foundation is accurate. Argue the foundation or you're not actually arguing the principle. This is what I see with economics all the time is that you know to argue about like aggregate demand and GDP when like, if you actually have Austrian foundation, you're like GDP is like, it's like it like no, like Your ag, your metric, your. The statistic you are using doesn't even apply. So I don't really care what GDP is different now. Then, like GDP is just going to. [01:29:19] Speaker A: Go up if you print a ton. [01:29:20] Speaker B: Of money and the economy doesn't collapse, like that's it. Like you. But GDP is a far better measure of just like the amount of money that's been flooded in the economy. And the only time that it actually goes down is when it's so bad and you've created such a terrible credit crisis that it has to unravel and you literally have to delete trillions of dollars through a default, through a credit crisis. So it's. Whether it's. Whether or not it's either going up because you printed a whole lot of money or it's going down because you caused a credit crisis, that's it. Like, that's, that's what GDP measures. So if you are arguing in the. [01:29:53] Speaker C: Frame of GDP as a measure of. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Like the health of the economy, you've. [01:29:56] Speaker A: Already lost because you're not actually arguing. [01:29:58] Speaker B: The point, and in kind of a similar vein is, you know, and I completely agree that like, I think a lot of people get confused with engaging and quote unquote, being polite or being like you're just talking to them without being like you're half an idiot is like not being solid about your point. It's just like somehow this is like pulling punches or something. Is it? [01:30:31] Speaker D: You're. [01:30:31] Speaker B: You're giving them something when there's nothing about. I think people conflate being nice with lying. I think, I think a lot of people do that. Is that the way to be nice is to just somebody is to just be like, oh, yeah, no, your project's. [01:30:51] Speaker A: Great and I'm being nice, I'm being polite. [01:30:55] Speaker B: Everything's great. Ethereum's gonna go awesome, man. [01:30:58] Speaker A: I swear, it's like, no, just tell them the truth. That's the only way to be nice anyway. You don't have to pull your punches. [01:31:05] Speaker B: In what you think or your argument to not just attack them as a person or whatever. [01:31:13] Speaker A: And your argument's a thousand times stronger. [01:31:15] Speaker B: If you manage to avoid that anyway. [01:31:17] Speaker A: Because you're just staying on point. [01:31:19] Speaker B: Just stay on point. [01:31:20] Speaker A: Just argue. [01:31:21] Speaker B: If you want to debate with somebody. [01:31:22] Speaker A: Just argue the point. Don't accept their frame and don't call them a piece of trash just because they made a mistake. [01:31:30] Speaker B: You did too. You held shitcoins. [01:31:31] Speaker A: You know you did. You know you did it. [01:31:35] Speaker F: $10. That's my, my track record. Of shitcoins. [01:31:39] Speaker B: I held so many shit coins for a little bit there. [01:31:40] Speaker F: But anyway, like, so embarrassing. Politeness is at the very core of why wokeism is a thing, I think, because it comes from a place of trying to be polite to one another and it's over politeness and confusing, as you say, confusing being nice with lying, with lying, just making stuff up. Yeah. [01:32:01] Speaker B: And some of those things, the insecure guys think that they have to lie about what they like to women to make women like them. [01:32:08] Speaker F: Yeah. [01:32:08] Speaker B: You know, it's like. It's like, oh, I love Taylor Swift. It's like, I love Taylor Swift too. It's like you're manipulating them. Like, you're not being nice. [01:32:17] Speaker A: You're lying to them to get them to like you. That's what a creep does. If you don't like Taylor Swift, be like, why do you like Taylor Swift? She's awful. And it's actually a much more interesting conversation too. And if she can't handle it because she's a delicate little nothing, you don't. Why would you want to be with that woman? [01:32:35] Speaker B: Like, just. [01:32:36] Speaker A: Just go off, like, value yourself and be honest. Like you're doing the same thing. [01:32:42] Speaker B: That it's just. [01:32:43] Speaker A: It's just a mess. [01:32:43] Speaker B: Like, we literally have this weird culture that has slowly grown up in the last 30 years where living a permanent life of white lies is somehow being nice to people or good or something. Like, stop putting a mask on. [01:33:01] Speaker A: Man up, pull your britches up and just. Just tell people what you think. Actually like the things that you like. And stop making up because you want somebody else's approval. I don't like Taylor Swift. [01:33:15] Speaker B: That's not true. There's a couple. There's a couple songs. There's a couple songs that are kind of like they. They hit. [01:33:20] Speaker F: I find her fascinating. Let's just say that she didn't write. [01:33:25] Speaker B: Any of that stuff anyway, so. [01:33:26] Speaker A: So it's not. [01:33:26] Speaker B: It's not Taylor Swift. It's just whoever the songwriter is that she purchased it from. [01:33:32] Speaker F: Guy, this has been an awesome conversation. I wish we could go on for two more hours, but unfortunately we're a bit tight on time here, so I think we're going to wrap it up here soon or if not now. So, like, I mean, thanks again on the audiobook. It should be out by the time that this episode comes out. So make sure everyone that you check out the audio version of Bitcoin, the universe of Clown world read by the one and only guys. 1. And you can change the speed if. [01:34:02] Speaker A: You Want I try to get it slow. [01:34:05] Speaker B: So if somebody. I do actually try to get it like slow and steady because I know there are like non native English speakers who listen to it. I don't want them to manually slow it down. And I know Everybody goes on 1.52x anyway, so, so definitely do speed it up if you're. [01:34:20] Speaker F: I noticed and I thought it was absolutely brilliant. Like I really, I really like that. That's clever. [01:34:26] Speaker B: Appreciate that. Rather than saying it's like, oh, he talks really slow like he's stupid. [01:34:29] Speaker F: No, no, no, no, no. It's. It's perfectly read. So, so. And check out all the other stuff. Check out Bitcoin Audible and where else would you like to send our listeners? [01:34:38] Speaker B: Just you can find me on Noster. That's where I do most of my stuff. And on key, if you join any of the key rooms, I'm in like 90 now. It's like really? So you. There's no way you don't bump into me on Keyed if you just start exploring. And I spend, that's where I spend two most maximum amounts of time is hanging out on Noster and hanging out like all my work stuff is in Keat. So I'm, I'm there in those groups quite a bit back and forth. [01:35:08] Speaker A: And you can DM me on Twitter. [01:35:10] Speaker B: I still answer my DMs, like, I don't post, like, I don't do comments or whatever. I'll just like post episode stuff typically on Twitter and content. But I can still be reached there and it is still one of my biggest networks for access to other people. So feel free to DM me. I might be slow about getting back and I apologize. But otherwise, check out the show Bitcoin Audible, AI Unchained if you're interested in all the AI stuff. I really go down that rabbit hole pretty serious. And also its connection to like the open source world of AI specifically and how it's connected to Bitcoin. And then also the pair report which is all about the pair stack, which is what Keat and Well, it's the, the pair stack and a little bit Noster. Like it's got like a, it's got like a foot in the Noster door too because I think these are deeply related and I think they, they have a lot, they're going to have a lot to do with each other as things I'll move forward. [01:36:09] Speaker D: That's super good to hear because yeah, we talked to Paulo and Matias about, about Keat and one question was like what's the connection to Noster? And it seems like a no brainer that the two would work together but yeah, let's see. [01:36:23] Speaker B: Interesting. I'll tell you, I'll tell you my, my easy framing on this is that Noster actually doesn't have anything to do with relays. Relays are just the just default lowest hanging fruit for how to get information from one user to another. There's no reason why it can't be Nosters and Pears. Like, like it can't be like notes. The notes and the other stuff is a generic signing and publishing protocol with keys and like that you can basically deliver anything over the Internet that you want. Relays are the simple means the the simplest tool for getting signed message from A to B. But you can do that over the pair stack too without changing anything else about nostr. The whole protocol can work exactly the same and rather than using a relay address you can use a pair address and you can do this across peers. So there is not, I think they are separate layers in a general sense. NOSTR is a signing authentication and basically a directory of people and their keys and built with like a social media system. And the PEAR stack is a communication standard. It is more about are we going to use relays, are we going to use a pair stack, are we going to use TCPIP and do a web server like it's in that stack of the stuff but the rest of Noster is actually not part of that. The rest of Noster is on top. So that's just my, my reasoning for why I think these are not really competing with each other and that they are both going to be a very important part of the, of the new stack, if you will. [01:38:11] Speaker F: That's your two sets. [01:38:12] Speaker B: That's my two. That's just my two sets. [01:38:16] Speaker F: So anyway, anywhere you want to send our. Our like or was that the end the answer? [01:38:21] Speaker B: That was. [01:38:22] Speaker A: That was it. I think we got the whole list. [01:38:23] Speaker B: I think we got the whole list. I think we got it. [01:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Check out those shows. [01:38:26] Speaker B: AI and chain Pair report Bitcoin algorithm. [01:38:28] Speaker D: Awesome. [01:38:29] Speaker F: Check out all the things. Do all the things guy. [01:38:33] Speaker D: Thanks so much for this. It's been awesome to chat with you. Yeah, it's been a long time coming. We'll have to do this more often. [01:38:39] Speaker B: So for sure man. Good to officially meet you. I guess 100% since I didn't know I didn't even realize. [01:38:45] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, likewise. I likewise. So hey, this has been the Bitcoin affinity show. Thank you very much for listening. [01:38:54] Speaker B: Take it easy. [01:38:57] Speaker C: You know, this episode was only an hour and a half and I feel like we could have done better. I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Always fun to hang out with Knut and Luke and it was actually awesome. I got to see them in Lugano. I don't get over across the other side of the pond a whole lot, so it's really nice to actually be able to catch up with them. And if you have not checked out their book yet, if you are a lover of any bitcoin books, Knut is a fantastic author and the book that they put together, the Inverse of Clown World, ranks pretty high in the list of bitcoin books to read that are just really fun. It's called Bitcoin the Inverse of Clown World and I feel like that kind of gives you an idea of what you're going to get. So thank you guys for listening. Do not forget to subscribe. Do not forget to share this out. This show lives because you guys share it out with other people. You value the conversations, the reads, the takes and all of that good stuff. And I've got another really good one. I know it's been a little bit since I've talked about AI stuff, but that is actually coming pretty soon and I'm going to have a guy's take because there is a lot to update in the whole AI sphere and so I'm eager to get into that because that's going to be a hefty episode. There's a lot to cover, but thank you all so much for zapping on NOSTR for streaming sats on Fountain and sending me boosts. If you want to support this show, the best way is to just share it out. But also if you are getting yourself a Jade plus, don't forget to use my discount because not only does that help out the show, but it also makes sure that you get 10% off. Do not buy things without discounts. There are discounts everywhere, especially bitcoin things. Come to me and then check out the BitKit wallet. This is a non custodial on chain and Lightning mobile wallet. It has an awesome setup and design and access to their LSP built right in so there's no real setup or hassle to lightning. For some reason you seem to have trouble with lightning. You should have turned your VPN on for security and privacy anyway and maybe point it to a country like Switzerland or something. I don't know. Is that what guy does? [01:41:02] Speaker B: That's what guy does. [01:41:03] Speaker C: Check them out links and details in the show notes and I will catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin. [01:41:09] Speaker B: Audible. [01:41:09] Speaker C: And until then, everybody take it easy, guys.