Chat_138 - Bitcoin Needs More Civil Wars with Super Testnet

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You can delete your Lightning transactions. So unlike a blockchain, a blockchain is an append only database and every transaction that gets stored in a blockchain is stored there forever. Lightning transactions don't go on a blockchain. Where do they go? A SQL database. And what's great about SQL databases are they're not append only, they have a delete function. So you can turn off your Lightning node, open up its database in any SQL editor and say select all delete and you're deleted. Your transaction transaction history, which is a wonderful privacy tool, can't do that on a blockchain. [00:00:52] Speaker B: What is up, guys? Welcome back to the show. This is Bitcoin Audible and I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else. You know, we've got super testnet back on the show today and I am really. Dude, we dug into so much stuff. It's, it was long overdue to get him back on the show. And I'll go over some of it in just a minute before we get into it, but really quick, this show is brought to you by Leden. If you don't want to sell your Bitcoin, you can actually get a bitcoin backed loan. You can get out a fiat loan against it and, and actually keep your bitcoin. Now if you do this, you need to use somebody who is trusted, who has survived an entire cycle and gone through a terrible bear market where everybody else was declaring bankruptcy and banks were crashing and exchanges were blowing up. And you know what was happening over at Ledden? Nothing. It was boring. It just kept working because they're not stupid and they do proof of reserves. You can actually check your balance. They do it twice a year. This is a really, really useful tool to have in your kit if you need access to fiat and you don't want to get rid of your bitcoin. And in the latest Financial Freedom report, It was number 81 from the Human Rights Foundation. So the Venezuelan Bolivar is now on track to do 530% inflation to be devalued by that much before the end of the year. Which means, let's say they were paying $5 for a gallon of gas at the beginning of the year. That means it's going to cost them like 31 or $32 per gallon of gas at the end of the year. You won't hear about this stuff on the news because they don't want to tell you about how currencies collapse because then suddenly you would get nervous about what your country's doing. If you actually want to stay up to date on this, about what's going on all around the world with financial freedom, with financial repression, the good, the bad and the open source tools of financial freedom, that is the financial freedom report by the HRF link and details are right down in the show notes. Also get Chroma. I'm actually going to do a video about this pretty soon, but lighthealth has been something that I've been really focused on recently and that's actually why we talked to Chroma. We have discount code, Bitcoin, audible gets you 10% off everything in the store. That's the blue light, blocking glasses, the nightshade, the sky portal, which is a really cool light. I'll actually show it to you in the video, but check it out, those details are right down below. And then lastly, Pub Key. So if you are trying to build censorship resistant apps, if you're trying to build on a new decentralized web and solve the centralized, permissioned kind of nightmare that we found ourselves in, pubkey has built a protocol stack and they've specifically built a full fledged social app showing the potential, like what you can do with this and if nothing else, just get the Pub Key Ring app, that's P U B K Y by the way, but the Pub Key Ring app and just log in with it. Just do that for me. The links and details are right down in the show notes. All right, so we got Super Testnap back on and we are digging into a ton of stuff. He has been trolling really hard and been causing lots of stir in his debates and also examples and challenges with Monero people on Lightning being a better privacy tool from a lot of different perspectives on how you look at it than Monero. So we get into the gritty of that and let him tell the story of a bunch of that that's been going on. We get into a bunch of tools he's been building which he builds. Literally anything that he just thinks, oh we should have this or this would be cool. It's a privacy solution. It's a forum with zaps, it's a Lightning vpn, it's better submarine sw, you name it. Like he just builds stuff. That's why I love hanging out and talking to Super Testnet. We dig into filters. Do they actually work? Is it censorship? What does he think about the whole situation and some other really undervalued tools in the space actually. And it's great because he had a couple of examples that I have. You can actually look down in the show notes. I've got a couple of different links that he brought up, but listen to the episode so you know what he's talking about when you. When you look at the links. And then also how to play Australian football, which was really interesting. And why, if we want bitcoin to survive, we want more toxic bitcoin civil wars. So we've got a lot on the docket today, and I hope you guys enjoy this episode as much as I did. So with that, let's dive right in. This is Chat138. Bitcoin needs more civil war with Super Testnet. And welcome to the show Super Testnet. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Yeah, thank you for having me on your show. It's always an honor. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Oh, of course, of course. Like I said, I know we have literally a ton of stuff to catch up on, but just. Just kind of starting off. What have you been up to, man? How you been doing? We haven't talked in probably since. I don't know. Shit, it feels like a year or two almost. [00:06:17] Speaker A: It's been a minute. I think the last time I might have seen you was at the Atlanta Bitcoin Conference last year, so that's probably last time I got to hang out. [00:06:26] Speaker B: No, probably bitblock. Boom. I think. Yeah, this one. But the one before, I think we got to hang out. Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker A: So you said what I've been doing. I've been traveling a lot, still on the bitcoin conference circuit, doing that. Um, so like, next month, I'm on. On my way to bitcoin. Plus. Plus in, I think, Riga, and then, like, in. There's another one in Istanbul that I'm going to, and I think there's one in Taipei, So doing that all the time. Plus the Atlanta Bitcoin Conference, I'm learning a new sport. I'm learning to play football, Australian football, which is. Which is cool. So I'm currently in Des Moines, Iowa, where there's this team who's teaching me how to play that sport. So that's kind of weird and fun. Yeah, that's. I've been traveling a lot, doing a lot of bitcoin stuff, a lot of, you know, development work. And that's. That's. That. [00:07:21] Speaker B: Dude, you know, just because you. You mentioned the Australian football, and you just gave me, like, the short rundown. I have never heard of this for the audience. I have never heard of Australian football. And this seems like the weirdest thing ever, but. And. And cracks me up that somehow in Des Moines, Iowa, there are Australian football players. But this thing is fascinating. [00:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, you know, football. The term, the term football covers a variety of sports. Soccer is also called football and. And American football is called football. And the Australians came up with their own version back when, you know, the word football could mean anything and their version's wacky. It's, it's most. I think it's most like rugby in terms of, like sports that your audience might be familiar with. It's most similar to rugby, but it has a couple of elements of American football. Like forward passes are allowed, but it incorporates volleyball. So if you're doing a forward pass, you have to bump it out of your hand like a volleyball, which is kind of weird. It incorporates elements of. What's it called? Basketball. Like there's dribbling in the sport, so they have a ball that's elongated. It's sort of between a rugby football and an American football where it's like rounder than an American football but thinner than a rugby football. Anyway, you have this ball and you're supposed to learn to throw it onto the ground and bounce it up and catch it because you're only allowed to run for 15 yards or meters. You're only allowed to run for 15 meters before you have to bump it to someone else or kick it to someone else. And so if you don't do that, then you have to like throw it to yourself, which means bouncing it on the ground and then. And then keeping on running with it, which is a really difficult technique to do because, you know, it's elongated and it wants to go just random places anyway. Yeah, it's just, it's a sport that I'm learning to play and, and that's, that's what I'm. That's what I'm out here in Iowa for. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Are you, are you killing it? Are you like really good at it? [00:09:21] Speaker A: No, no, no. I'm not very athletic. I'm also not into sports. I'm not trained my brain to get into the, the kind of high gear that it takes for, for, for a sport like that, you know that I look down the field and I see a group of people. I'm like, I should probably be there. So I run to them and by the time I get to them, they're in a new place. I'm like, okay, now where do I go? And that's like, I don't have the. You know, you have to train your brain to learn to like, watch the ball and have react. Good reaction times for that type of thing. And I just. I'm not skilled in that way yet and maybe never will be. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Not. Not quite like your karaoke. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Definitely not as good as I am. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Karaoke skills up here? Australian football down here? [00:10:03] Speaker A: Something like that. [00:10:06] Speaker B: Well, dude, last time you were on the show, I think what were you building there was probably Hedgehog. Yes, hedgehog. That's right. It was the hedgehog episode. Oh, man. Which means you've done a lot since then because I think you did the privacy. What's the one? It was like a. It's like a bee or something. What's. What was the. What was the name of it? [00:10:29] Speaker A: A bee. [00:10:31] Speaker B: I feel like it was some. Something related to like bees or insects or something. Was the, the name that you came up with? I guess I'm totally wrong if that doesn't ring a bell. What was it? What was one of the privacy tools you did? You did a privacy tool? I thought it was around the hedgehog days. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Let me just. Let me just look it up. [00:10:50] Speaker B: I almost think it was like a msb. [00:10:51] Speaker A: Msb. You're probably thinking of that. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. That one, yeah. [00:10:56] Speaker A: So that, yeah, that was a coinjoin. Well, it wasn't. It wasn't a coin join. It wasn't complete coin join software. It was a proof of concept that it's possible to do the core part of a coin join, which is the coordination part, the coordination phase. It's possible to do that without a coordinator. So I, I did a hackathon project. I thought it was possible to do this. Came up with the idea, wrote an implementation during a hackathon and then. And then presented it. And it got a lot of attention because at the time, what the. The wasabi had just shut down due to US regulations and the arrest of. Of the developers of Tornado Cash. So the two big coin join tools in the United States basically stop working. And so I came up with this way. I was like, actually it's possible to do this without a coordinator. So that got a lot of attention briefly. Of course it wasn't complete. It was just a hackathon project that showed like. Like there's a lot more that goes into coin joins than just the coordination. Like, discovery is also a serious significant thing. And denial of service protection. I didn't do any of that. So. So anyway, that was a privacy. One of my contributions to the privacy space was finding a way to do pointing joins without a coordinator. Actually, it has been a bit picked up on. Not my way of doing it, but another developer named floppy desk guy. 14 million bytes, I think is his name on Twitter or 140,000 bytes, something like that. He also has a way of doing coin joins in a. He doesn't use my MSV protocol, but he has another way of doing that is also more censorship resistant. Uses Nostr for the coordination layer and you pick a NOSTR relay and you do these certain kinds of event clients. So his protocol is neat and he's actually working on his. I'm not working on msb. So if you're looking for robust censorship resistant coinjoin software, I recommend taking a look at Joinster, which is by floppy disk guy. And he's actually, you know, doing it. He's. He's making. He's working on it. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Active development. I'll check this one out. I don't. I want to say I actually heard about this, but I haven't actually investigated it at all. I'll put this. I'll try to remember this one in the show notes. [00:13:10] Speaker A: I reviewed the code base for it and he's got an Electrum plugin for it. And I think he's working on a standalone client as well. And it's, it's just a. It's a really cool protocol and uses Nostra for a unique thing. So check it out. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Hell yeah. All right, I'll have that link. I think I got it. I think I see it. Floppy at Joinster. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that should be him. Well, sweet. Well, give me the rundown on the. Actually, you know what, since we're on privacy, let's talk about the Monero stuff because this has been really funny to watch. And, you know, I guess it's like, it's just kind of like natural that everybody's like super defensive and gets like really angry when, when things aren't perfect or when, you know, it turns out. [00:13:54] Speaker A: Or when I troll them, or when. [00:13:56] Speaker B: You troll them or when all them. But give for anybody who hasn't been following you, which is sad, but they've got. There's got to be a couple of them out there that doesn't know what's been going on. And getting to kind of read the whole Monero back and forth and the people who are just not happy with you give like kind of the history of what's been going on there. And you're. You're trolling in this. [00:14:25] Speaker A: It started a while back when I moved to Mexico. I moved to Mexico for a while to help start a bitdevs down there. And one of the guys who was kind of loosely affiliated with the Bitcoin community down there is a big. He's into Monero and he's somewhat of an influencer on the topic in the Monero community. So he and I started getting into it. I don't like Monero. He does. And he invited me to come onto his podcast to talk about Monero. And in the lead up to it, I decided to find out how to trace Monero, because this is the big claim on the Monero website. It says Monero is untraceable. I was like, I don't believe anything's impossible, so I'm going to try and figure out how it's traced. I started researching, I looked at tools by Cipher Trace, where they made a tool for tracing Monero, and Chainalysis has one. So I watched like interviews with them about how their software works and I started writing my own based on the principles I learned. And on the day that I arrived at his podcast, I had completed a Monero tracing tool called examiner and published that on my. On my GitHub, like I do with all my projects. So our podcast was like, we would pick a Monero transaction and my tool would try to identify the sender. Sometimes it can do it like one in five times with 80% confidence level, it can do it. The rest of the time, they can't do it. But we were exploring it. I was going over how it works, and he was very upset about this. He was like, no, this isn't right. An arrow is untraceable, it can't be done. And so we did this whole podcast about that with us going back and forth during that podcast. Luke Parker, who's a lead Monero dev, came on and wanted to talk about this. So then he and I did a separate podcast on Set for Privacy, his podcast, where we did a debate on Monero privacy and whether it's traceable versus lightning and stuff. So since then, I have found that the funnest way to troll the Monero community on this, while also educating people, is to do these challenges. Where I issue a challenge and I say, I will pay a Monero address of your choice. You pay a lightning invoice of my choice, and we'll see who learns more about the recipient. Very often they will say lightning has terrible privacy, but I think it's got better privacy than Monero. So I do these challenges and so far I think I've done like eight of them. On all eight, I've been able to identify. I've been able to trace my own coins, and that's one of the things that upsets them, they're like, well, of course you can trace your own coins. You made the transaction, of course you know where you sent it. And I'm like, but you don't know where you sent it when you sit it on lightning. Yeah, so there's a big difference there. But I'm always able to identify where I sent the money, give cryptographic proof of how much I sent, how much landed in their address. And this is how Monero is typically traced. It's similar to a marked bills attack with physical currency. They will send the target some money and then watch the blockchain to see what happens to it next. And, and so like, you can't do that on lightning because there's no blockchain. And that's why I often say it protects you against certain attacks better than Monero does. Attacks that are actually widely deployed. So that's what I. One of the things I've been doing is those challenges. And then the other thing I did just so I can have something to link to whenever someone says Monero is untraceable, I went through and got a list of times when Monero has been successfully traced from like court cases that where Monero comes up, you can identify, you can like do word searches and stuff and find this stuff. So I went and found, I think six case, six criminal cases where Monero was traced and then the criminal was convicted of a crime and put it together and made like this website called moneroleaks xyz, where I go over how it's been traced and then what date, what types of data it leaks that lead to it being traced, and a list of the attacks that are used to trace Monero. So that I point to now whenever I sometimes I go on Twitter and I search for people who are saying Monero is untraceable, which is what they're saying all the time. And then I'll just be like, no, it's not. Here's examples where it's been traced. So, yeah, those are some of the things I've been doing. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Pissing people off in the process. [00:18:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it does. It definitely pisses them off, which is quite fun. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Which makes it quite fun. This is always one of the things that I've kind of felt that there was a bit of a fundamental disconnect between privacy at the base layer is that the consensus model requires that the triple entry accounting concept. Right, is that there is a public ledger underneath all of this. And your cryptographic assumptions in particular become far more complex if you're adding privacy to that as well as just simple. The cryptography of like can you sign for this transaction? You know, the audit is vastly simpler. If you could just look at balances and do math in your head like okay, yeah, this basically checks out. The, this system has not been modified or corrupted in any way because balances are obvious and privacy like I don't know of a single privacy tool that hasn't had to evolve quite a bit and pretty quickly because the tools to uncover privacy and the different avenues of attack are so vast. Like it's, it's a constant moving, it's a little bit like the, the fight against spam almost. Actually it's never, it's a moving target always because the environment dictates so much about whether or not you can maintain privacy and how, because just your mode of communication matters like hugely. And you know, what's, what is, what is even happening? [00:20:28] Speaker A: What operating system are you using matters? [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:32] Speaker A: If your operating system is spying on you, it doesn't matter what techniques you're using for privacy. Like every, every screen is shared with someone and every key, every stroke of your keyboard is shared with someone. And then you're like but how did. [00:20:43] Speaker B: I, how did I get caught in an arrows on traceable. It's like well you have chat GPT plugged into your Windows operating system and it's reading everything that you do. So yeah, doesn't really help. But like that's, that's what I'm getting at, you know, is that like it's such a huge and multi fat like there's no one solution to privacy. And even like a mild change in the environment, like plugging an AI into your operating system just seems like this thing of convenience can fundamentally change like how you connect to something and like where in your entire stack of this process, your device, your, your software, your, your environment, which network you connect to, whatever, all of those things have massive fundamental consequences for privacy. And so doing it at the base layer adds quite a bit of complexity and potential drawbacks while also putting it in an environment where as soon as it gets undermined at any layer in the stack of like again, your environment, your operating system, anything like that, it's like, it's like okay, so we went through, we, we had this significant trade off that cannot guarantee anything like over any length of significant length of time because things are just going to change. I mean and I think you've just kind of proven it and I think it's only going to, only going to get better when it comes to figuring out how this works with Monero or tracing Monero or any other privacy or Lightning. Exactly, exactly. Which means that if it's on a layer two, if it's some way to extend the, the simplicity of the assurances that are offered at the base layer, then layer two can actually keep up. It can actually evolve and try out the thousand different things needed to figure out the two really good solutions every single time the environment changes and the attacker changes and the operating system changes, et cetera, et cetera. Or at least the more and more I've thought about it and this is, I am like super. And privacy is like one of the fundamental things for me. You know, like it was kind of a fundamental cypherpunk. A part of the cypherpunk philosophy is that this is about sovereignty and privacy. So I'm not like discounting it, I'm just, I, I increasingly think, the more and more I think about how the architecture of this thing and how technology progresses is that privacy just kind of has to be at higher layers. At least, at least in my thinking. [00:23:25] Speaker A: I don't know, you say it has to be. I don't know if it has to be. If you do it at the base layer, you get there are trade offs is the thing. So you have to decide is it worth the additional difficulty of auditing in order to have privacy at the base layer? I don't think it's unreasonable to say that's a fine trade off, but yeah, it's not clear cut. Like it depends on what you're really seeking. [00:23:50] Speaker B: Not an obvious answer. [00:23:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:52] Speaker B: So explain. You said that when you paid, when you paid Lightning, you didn't know where it was going to. How does that work? What was. Give me the context of the Lightning transaction and kind of the privacy implementation implications there. Because like when I think about like in receiving over Lightning, like paying, enlightening is, is huge. It's like has a significant privacy benefit. Like if somebody pays me, I can't, I have no idea where the hell is coming from. And that's what I usually like when I'm talking to people that like I work with or anybody who asked me is like I say put money into a Lightning wallet, put Bitcoin into a Lightning wallet and then just pay out over Lightning and don't receive. Whereas receiving an invoice usually has a route identification of your node and you know, all that stuff with the invoice amount. Is there a way to receive privately so that you're actually not giving away your location? [00:24:47] Speaker A: So I want to start by mentioning what. When people talk about receiver privacy on Lightning, it's very common. Including on the website lightning privacy.com it's very common to say Lightning has very poor receiver privacy and it does leak some data. When you receive money on Lightning, you do leak some data. However, I think it's even fair to say that in most cases it's bad. The amount of data you leak makes it a bad receiver privacy. So I confess that, however, I want to do a relative comparison and say let's compare it to Monero, which is the lead privacy coin, because then it looks a lot better. So on Monero they will often say Monero has perfect receiver privacy. They will, they will. The Banera people will say it has perfect receiver privacy because if someone just looks at a random transaction on the blockchain, they see two outputs. The outputs don't say what amount is in them. And there's like a random. They call it a one time public key. They call it that. I don't completely agree with their terminology here, but they say there's a one time public key that's generated just for that transaction. Monero addresses is not address reuse is, according to some people, just not a thing. In Monero, I think it is, but, but you look at this and you'll see. So you, if you're just a third party observer looking at the blockchain, you see one of these outputs, you cannot map the, or at least, I don't know, I don't think it's possible to map the outputs in that transaction to the original Monero address that actually that someone gave to the sender. So they will say this makes it perfect receiver privacy. And then they will go and say on Lightning it has terrible receiver privacy because the invoice leaks your public key. Okay, well, just a second here. If you're a third party observer, you don't see the invoice, if you're a third party observer to a Lightning transaction, I don't give the invoice to third parties. I give it to the person who I'm actually transacting with. [00:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's a one time invoice. It only works. [00:26:55] Speaker A: It's also one time for the one payment. So in my opinion that makes it better than Monero, because on Monero what you start with is a blockchain that anyone can view and they can see every transaction and they can see all of the outputs and they can start with their, they can start their investigation there on Lightning first, because there's no blockchain. You have to start subpoenaing people who might be involved in the transaction. You have to say like, maybe it pac. Maybe like a common routing node is bibbity fill or was it ln big or whatever. And you have to start subpoenaing these people and say, we need all of your records because we're trying to find someone. We need to know what invoice is involved. Like the starting point is much more difficult than it is on Monero. Secondly, the reason people say Lightning has poor receiver privacy, the primary reason is that when you create a lightning node, your node or Lightning wallet, your node or your wallet creates a public key. And every time you, you create an invoice, you put that public key in your invoice. So they will say it has bad receiver privacy because you're always giving your public key to whoever you're sending money to. If you're a third party observer, it lightning's better because there's no blockchain to go to to see the, see the invoices. If you're a first party, if you're the sender, very often in privacy attacks, it starts with somebody sending money to a target like you. You say, I want to find out who this, who this person is. I'm going to send them money and then try and watch what happens to that money. So on. So very often the att, the, your adversary is the person who sent you money. In the scenario where you're trying to guard against certain types of attacks, like an EVE LS EVE attack, or a poisoned output attack, or a tiny analysis attack, almost always starts with the sender being the attacker. So in that situation they will say lightning has bad receiver privacy because you always give away a public key. But compared to compare it with Monero, in Monero you give away a public key as well. But every Monero address has actually two public keys in it. There's something called a view key and there's, there's another, there's another key in there as well. And so you actually give two public keys with Monero. You only give one with the Lightning network. And on Monero, the sender gets a cryptographic proof that the money he sent to this Monero address is actually in that Monero address. He can prove it cryptographically. Lightning doesn't give you that because in Lightning we have this concept called dummy public keys. They're part of the blinded route spec and they've been supported in Lightning since even before we had blinded routes. They were supported in the beginning you could put, you can put a fake public key in your, a one time public key in your Lightning invoices and most software doesn't do this, but you can do it. [00:29:53] Speaker B: That's funny, I didn't, I don't even think I knew that. Like I should totally be the default if, if that's actually. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Well, it has trade offs supported. [00:30:01] Speaker B: Okay, it has trade offs. [00:30:04] Speaker A: So what? One of the trade offs of doing this is that the way that proofs of payment work on the Lightning network is you prove that a particular public key signed a message. You say he signed that. If he reveals this pre image that constitutes the proof of payment. If you put a new public key in every time, then the proof isn't worth very much because you're proving some random public key. Who does that belong to? If you can't prove it belongs to your recipient, then it's like there are trade offs to using these. So most software doesn't do it. But there is software that lets you create a new public key for every invoice. Valet wallet does this by default. It's a Lightning Wallet that's available on the Google Play Store and they release APKs on GitHub. There's software by Ben Carman called Trans LND that lets you change your Lightning invoice public key for every payment. And you can also do it using proxies. So what I always do in my Monero challenges is. Oh, sorry. There's two other ways to do it. You can turn on blinded routes if you have an LND wallet or if you have a wallet that supports lnd. Many of them, like Zeus, have a toggle for turning on blinded routes. If you do that, you'll always put in a dummy public key in all of your invoices. And then the other thing you can use is Bolt 12 which uses blinded paths by default. But we can get into this. It's. I don't think it's very good at this because it puts another public key in there that is specific to your node, it replaces that one with another one. And so I think it does a bad job of fixing this problem anyway. So you put a public key in there typically. And if you don't use one of these tools that gives you a new one every time, then you're reusing that information. And then the sender can, well, even then he doesn't get proof that the public key in the invoice actually signed the payment. It's just, it's a default behavior. He doesn't know that that is your actual public key. You could be running proxy software and then forwarding that payment onto someone else. But the guess is if your public key is in there and it's a well known node and it's not a proxy, then you're probably the recipient. And that's kind of how proofs of payment work on Lightning. Like they're not. The term proof in the phrase proof of payment is not really true. It's not really a proof. It's likely or it's not even. It's hard to even say that because anyone can just spoof it. So I don't know, it's a thing. It's the only thing, it's the only cryptographic part of the payment that we actually get proof of. [00:32:44] Speaker B: It's likely only because of how the default behavior of most people using lightning is rather than technically likely. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Yeah, this also comes up in this, in the community of, in the ZAPS specification. Like that when people started using lightning for zaps on nostr, they quickly realized they could zap themselves and they could create. To any third party observer it looks like a proof of payment. You can see the invoice, it's been signed even by a well known public key and you can see the pre image. But if you're just creating invoices and then revealing their pre image, you can make it look like you've received thousands and thousands of zaps, or millions or much, much money that you didn't really receive. So it doesn't really prove anything. And this ZAP specification now has like a warning like don't trust these as cryptographic proof, even though they have something that says it's a proof of payment. It's really very. It's not, it's just not one. Okay, so anyway, what was I talking about? [00:33:40] Speaker B: The public key situation in Monero as comparison. [00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah. So it is. It's bad that you leak a public key by default or with most software you leak a public key when you're making a lightning invoice. But if you compare it with Monero, it's better in terms of third party observers and it's also better in terms of first party observers. Another reason it's better is that the public key that you leak in Monero is one that provably receives money. You can cryptographically prove that that public key controls a certain amount of money. On Lightning, the public key you give in an invoice only used for signing messages, like not bitcoin messages, but just like lightning gossip and stuff like that. So that public key never holds any funds. And it's actually like it's a better public key to reveal. It's still bad to leak it, but it's better than the one you reveal in narrow. So anyway, for all these reasons I say yes, if you don't use any additional tools. Receiver privacy is bad on Lightning, but it's better than what you get in Monero. And that's the framing that I like to look at it from when I'm trolling Monero people. [00:34:51] Speaker B: Out of curiosity, what proxy software do you use and or recommend? Like have you done that specifically in one of your challenges or whatever? Used a, like a trampoline payment thing. [00:35:04] Speaker A: And I often go to the website lnproxy.org there's a wonderful, wonderful and easy website for gaining privacy on the Lightning network. Gaining receiver privacy or improving your receiver privacy. What they do is they run a copy of lnd, I think it's LND they're running. They run a copy of LND and they make it so that you can paste an invoice on their website. They will copy that invoice. They'll make what's called a clone. And this clone is the same invoice but with their public key instead of yours and fees added on top. So if you give them a thousand sat invoice, they'll give you back one. That's ten, ten sats. So you have the sender pay this proxy invoice and the secret that the proxy has to reveal in order to settle the payment is one that you created as the recipient. The proxy doesn't know it, so the only way they can get that secret, the pre image to the payment, is by paying your original invoice. If they pay your original invoice, then you have to reveal the secret in order to settle it. And once they have the secret, then they can settle the invoice from the original Sunday. [00:36:13] Speaker B: That's funny. So they literally do the exact same thing Lightning does with payment routes, except they do an additional layer of routing through the invoices itself. That's actually pretty cool. [00:36:25] Speaker A: They do an additional layer of routing on the invoices in order to hide your public key and it's quite effective. [00:36:30] Speaker B: That's pretty dope actually, and really simple. [00:36:33] Speaker A: There's a few things that are cool about that software. One is it's free and open source so you can anyone can download it and run it. And their website has like a selection tool where you can select from different people who are running it. So you can like you can even do it multiple times. You can just click one at random. Wrap. They call it invoice wrapping. Create a proxy invoice on that one. Take that proxy invoice now and wrap it again with another one. You can just pick another one who's running this software and then just do that like four or five times. And it's like making another onion layer on top of the regular Lightning onion hops just to hide your public key. Like Monero doesn't have this. This doesn't exist on Monero. There's no such thing as transaction chaining on the Monero blockchain. Well, I think it's actually possible to do transaction chaining on Monero but no one has implemented it. And so it's not probably because they. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Think their privacy solution or their privacy problems have already been solved and they just get angry if, if you suggest otherwise rather than thinking that this is a never ending problem and you have to make improvements and there's no privacy solution. Ecash is great, but it's also not a full solution. Like I. [00:37:48] Speaker A: There isn't. I don't think there is a full solution to privacy. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. [00:37:52] Speaker A: It's a fundamental principle of information theory that any interaction between any two people reveals information about each. I don't think there's a way to completely eliminate that because it's a fundamental principle of information theory. If any information is given, that's a leak and if you don't give any information then you're not interacting with someone, they're not paying you. Yeah. So I don't know if there's a complete solution to privacy but. Or I don't think there is. But certainly the tools that we have available on Lightning are quite advanced. Like there's really cool privacy technology that's been built into Lightning like the onion routing layer. Then there's like additional tools on top of Lightning like the proxy software. So there's really cool stuff in Lightning. That's one of the reasons I like to do these challenges is to highlight like a lot of people aren't aware of all the work that's been done to make private privacy software for the Lighting network. So by doing my challenges I expose more people to those things. [00:38:52] Speaker B: Dude, I would really love because, because I, I actually thought about and as if I had the time to actually manage and, or pay somebody to build something like this. But the lmproxy.org is such a great idea and the fact that it works that simply too is, is great because like it would just Be awesome to be able to plug that into a wallet. Like, you know, I have Nordvpn and Mulvat and these things and I just, they're just like what an extension, right? As I just install them on the operating system and then I can have like a simple click and it's on, click, it's off, like sort of situation is it like, I think they should be treated and thought about like VPNs and you, you literally quote, unquote, install them in your wallet, whatever Lightning wallet you use, and you can just turn them on with like a little checkbox and you can have multiple. And even better is that you have such a perfect monetization environment too. You don't even have to like, you could maybe charge like a monthly thing just to have access, but you. And you could do, to just do that as like a, a barrier, like a filter for, you know, a bunch of randos or bots or something connecting to you. But there you don't need to do that. You could just do a fee. You could just do a tiny, a set fee per invoice or percent of the payment or something and you've just got it so that like you've always got basically free VPN until you need it and you can have, you can not use it for six months and then just turn on that checkbox when you're making a payment or receiving a payment and then you pay for it. In that one instance, you know, even. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Better than doing stuff you never. It's very often that you don't realize you needed to be private until after the facts, until after somebody's found you. Then you're like, oh, I should have been private. So it might be even better rather than making it a checkbox or maybe you have it as a checkbox, make it so you have to turn it off. Yeah, it's on by default. It's going to try and proxy all your invoices. Of course it costs more is the thing. You're not. One of the things that Lightning Wallets do, they tend to do anyway, is they want to minimize the number of hops along a route. Because what the most wallets are after is user experience. And every hop adds an additional delay and an additional cost. So most wallets will be like, we want the best user experience, we want fees to be minimal and we want speed to be best, want to maximize the speed. So they try. And even though the Lightning network has onion routing built in, they'll try to be like, let's do one hop or two. And try not to go above two hops to get to our destination. But that's bad for your privacy. The more hops you have on an onion route, the better it is. The, the, the harder it is to find out who it was because you have to, you have to get each of those nodes to collude and tell you the information in their database. So it's just better to have more hops. And because of that, you just adding more hops is great. I also made a tool on this note. There's a thing that I don't like about the LN proxy software, which is that the way they design the software requires you to run a web server in order to receive, in order to use their API. And most people who are running this software are running it on Tor. They're running it on. They're running on like umbrells and such. And when you're running this proxy software on Tor, then people can only use it if, if they first get out their Tor browser, then go to the website, then paste the onion invoice in, or if they have a client that has Tor built in, they can do it, but it increases the friction. [00:42:44] Speaker B: Way better to do it over the lightning network, like, kind of like a bolt 12. Thing is, you're actually doing that negotiation directly on the network so you don't have to have. Yeah, yeah. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Or you could do it a terrible way, which is my way. I wrote a proxy software as well. You can find [email protected] chestnet.org I call it the Rack because you're stretching your lightning payment like you're on the torture rack if you go there. I wrote proxy software you can use and it advertises itself over nostr. So even if you're running it on an umbrel or something, you're advertising yourself on Noster relays is available to do these swaps. You set your fees and such. And then when people come to rack.supertestnut.org they can, they can first of all earn money by being one of these proxies. But second of all, they can communicate with a wider array of proxies because they're all doing it on. Because you, because you can run it on like a number or something and still. And still be available on the whole, on the whole network. And I did that because I don't know how to do lightning gossip. I know it's possible to do lightning gossip, but I know how to do NOSTR a lot better and it's easier. So that's What I did, you know. [00:43:56] Speaker B: I've been interested in, I think you were in the pub key, like beta chat, if I remember correctly. And I've been like constantly focused on looking at three different things, which is PubKey, the pair stack with like key in them. And then Nostr and I have been trying to like, all of them seem to be like interesting in like one area specifically and then have a trade off in some other area. And one of the things that interests me about Nostr in particular is it does seem easy to build on and maybe speak to that a little bit because I really think this is one of the most fundamental problems. I think this is a fundamental problem for Bitcoin security and Bitcoin resiliency is how do you solve the network centralization underneath it of DNS, of having to deal with port forwarding and web servers and everybody going through platforms and all of this stuff, even though it's not in the Bitcoin. I think people discount how powerful solving the layers around Bitcoin and the architecture around it in the network, in the Internet itself is so fundamental to actual Bitcoin security. So maybe talk a little bit to that and what you've seen, if you've explored all three of those that I just referenced or just specifically Nostr, if that's the one you kind of are more familiar with. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Well, I'll say that one thing nice or one thing that's not great about Nostr is that it doesn't solve the, the problem you mentioned, which is DNS domain, the naming problem. [00:45:42] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So if you, when you use an OSTER relay, they, they're typically there. There are some that are on Tor, but most of them are just a domain name at a, a URL. They're like domus.relay. domus IO or I don't know, Nostr band has a relay. So there's a lot of relays that are just a URL and that makes it really easy. Like you can easily create lists of them, you can randomly select them when you're making a Noster app or you can have like a preferred ones. It's a great, it makes it really easy to identify what, what relays are out there, put them into your app and have a bunch of backups so that if some of them go down, you've got, you've got plenty of time to update your app and replace them and you're just using your backups in the meantime. That makes it really easy. However, you're not solving the domain name problem and so it's very easy to censor them. You could for a censorship resistant network. All it takes is someone finding one of these lists of master relays and then banning them all. Specifically icann. If the Internet committee banned all these IP addresses and, or not just the IP addresses but the domain names themselves, Noster wouldn't work anymore or you'd have to find new ones and it would. [00:46:56] Speaker B: Take a long time to adjust and it would be a nightmare for anybody who had relied on it and was very normie rather than technically inclined. It would just be like, wait, what the hell just happened to this whole network? [00:47:07] Speaker A: The Tor ones would still work because Tor has a quasi solution to the naming problem. So those ones would still work. And if your app happens to have Tor on and is using some Tor relays as backups, your app would still work. It would be slow though. And Tor's solution, quote unquote to the naming problem is just have a directory of people who promise not to censor them, which is the directory nodes on Tor. So it's really just a different ICANN that's run by the Tor foundation and they promise not to. They promise to be good. Yeah. So it's not really a solution, it's just giving the problem to someone else and saying, well, we don't trust the Internet committee so we'll just this Tor committee instead. I don't know how PubKey solves this. Do you have information on. John has like a big thing of his pitch for PubKey is that PubKey solves the naming problem. [00:48:01] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, so PubKey uses Picar, it's Pkarr and then, and this is, this is specifically one of my core things with both the pair stack and PUB key that I feel like maybe it's, you know, one piece of each of the puzzles because Noster is such. It's really just kind of like a set of standards for how to sign shit and send it to people. You know, it's, it really is kind of simple and it could almost just be, it could be put just right on top of Pair and pubkey really like it doesn't, it doesn't really need the relay, aside from the fact that you have compatibility issues because people built a bunch of stuff already, but fundamentally it doesn't need it. But both of them just separately use dhts. So pubkey uses the bittorrent dht, the main line and Pair uses the hyper dht, which is the one they've just built for their completely separate protocol. So it's smaller, not quite as Censorship resistant because there's just not as many DHT nodes out there, but there's like 2 million or some shit like that for Bittoin, for Bittoin, for Mainline. So and what they do is that you literally publish your public key in the DHT and then inside of that blob in the DHT with your public key you can basically just update whatever you want there. And that can be a web server, that can be a pair stack key, that can be a. It doesn't really matter, you can point to any. It's just completely agnostic, but it's just directions for how to find you. So let's say you have a relay and your relay goes down and it's just a normal DNS. Well, you can update in your Picar blob or whatever to point to a completely new DNS, upload all you put all your stuff on it and people will actually find you through the dht. So whatever, when they punch in your public key they don't know that they're selecting a different DNS or a different IP address or whatever and going to find you. They just find you again and they. It doesn't matter where you went to. So it's just kind of like a layer on top of it just says whatever you're using to host which it also could just be an IP address in the dht. It doesn't have to be a DNA, you don't have to have an address for any reason unless you want it. [00:50:26] Speaker A: It sounds like there's almost always an address. Yeah, so it doesn't really that, that if you, if you're not using an IP address, then you're not really solving the domain name problem because now you have to look up what IP address that belongs to. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Wait, wait, wait. If you're not using an IP address, I'm saying that you can use an IP address just like you could with peer to peer but your, the connection software that is being used needs to talk to it like BitTorrent. [00:50:55] Speaker A: That's also true of nostr though. Like if you can make a nostr, you can run a nostr relay on a bare IP address. It's not going to throw an error or anything. And then you could make a profile on nostr that points to that points that points to that IP address and says that's where you'll find my posts. I don't know if that really counts as solving the domain name problem. It's like what you're hoping is that people will give out this string Their public key. And their public key includes an IP address where you can talk to them. But if, if the Internet Committee wants to ban traffic to your IP address, they can just do it. They can just say, well, I don't know if they could do it, but I IP the relay, the Internet relays could, they could just say we're not forwarding traffic to that destination. That, you know, the ISPs could do it. [00:51:42] Speaker B: But here's, there's a really core, really important, core difference in my, in my opinion as to why both of these actually kind of do solve it. They solve it in a little bit of a hacky way, but you don't have to know where the IP address is. So like the, because when you just have the public key, you can find wherever the new location is. So think about in the context, you know, you use the lightning compared to Monero. So think about it in comparison to relays on Nostr, after your DNS goes down of like Noster Wine, whatever, like your, your address and that is no longer, that will no longer connect, well then when you come back online and that DNS has been censored, well then that, that relay is gone and you have to go, you have to start messaging somebody on Telegram or Twitter, where's the new Noster Wine relay? And it's like, did they set it back up yet? Where you know what's going on? And then you have to go find a new list and find a new DNS and all of this stuff and then you go and you manually punch it back in. Whereas, because the, the id, your ability to get the information is still dependent on your knowledge of the address. Whereas in the Picar situation is that if you just have their public key, you, all you ever have to do is save that public key and it doesn't matter what happens to the DNS. So if they block the DNS or they block the IP address, well, they put it up on a new IP address, they boot it up on a new machine, they put it up on a new DNS. [00:53:09] Speaker A: But how do they find the new IP address? [00:53:11] Speaker B: Dht. The dht. So it updates in the, in the dht, you, you look up that public key in the DHT to find the. [00:53:20] Speaker A: New location, you have to connect to the dht. And if, if the node that you're talking to doesn't respond to that, if he says I'm blocking this IP address, then what do you do? [00:53:31] Speaker B: No, no, but you're not talking to that IP address to get the information from the dht, you're, you're talking to just general DHT nodes, the mainline nodes, which is redundant to your, your whole section of the DHT. So it might be 20 to 50 nodes that all have that public record in the DHT and it can only actually be censored if you, if ICANN actually shuts down a whole array of addresses that would take up that, that block of the dht. [00:54:02] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's the thing that, the way that we do censorship resistance in nostr is also to say your public key, your end profile should have multiple relays in it so that in order for them to censor you, they have to shut down not just one relay, but all of the ones in your string in your identifier. And it sounds like the solution is the same thing here. It's like you have to, your, the person who finds your posts is the DHT nodes and in order for them to censor that, they have to shut down all of those DHT nodes. [00:54:35] Speaker B: It's actually the reverse situation because in nostrg the onus is on the users to figure out what relays to connect to to find the person that they're following again. So like you have, let's say you have like one person and then a thousand followers. If that one person gets censored, then those thousand followers all need to update in order to figure out how to find that one person again. Whereas in the Picara situation is the DHT can't be, is just insanely difficult to censor. Like it's just not going to be manageable for somebody to do that because of the 1 million to 2 million nodes that are, that are feeding out the DHT blobs. Which means that in that situation the thousand people who are following don't have to do anything. Just the one person who is censored has to change the pointer to where the information goes to. And all thousand people doing nothing at all will automatically find them again as soon as the DHT has new information. So it's the reversed onus as to whose responsibility it is to get around the censorship. And the person who is being censored could have multiple options already in the DHT such that if one of them does get censored, then another one just kind of fills it fills the slot in. It just automatically is just there again. So it can be basically done where there's no hiccup, there's no interruption. That's what I'm looking for though. There's no interruption in the connection between the group and the person being followed. [00:56:06] Speaker A: So this is. So I posted, in the chat on this Riverside fm, I posted something called an end profile, which is a standard that's used in NOSTR for sharing, for telling people how to find you on the network. And the N profile string includes a pub key and a list of one or more relays. So if you decode this one, which I'm going to do at Noster Helpers, which is a tool that I wrote, should share my screen. So you can see. [00:56:39] Speaker B: Is that like Nostr Helpers, I think you can share your screen. [00:56:42] Speaker A: I can. Oh sweet. Let me do that then. So yeah, it's just a website on my, on my GitHub called Noster Helpers. Anyway, I'm going to pull this npub or end profile and paste it into here and convert it. And you can see here it's not just a public key, which is, which is what this is. It also includes a relay. So this means that like if you, you can put multiple in there. Actually I thought I had multiple in here. The one I usually share has multiple. So usually it's like I also use nose. True. So my end profile is usually kind of longer. Anyway, this string includes multiple relays and that makes it. So it's that interruptionless thing. If relay DOMUS IO goes down. People who got my identifier are also following me at nos. True. So then when I create a new set of relays, now they're following me at my new set that includes that, that has DOMUS replaced. So this because of this on nostr, if you're using M profiles to share your identity with people, then you have that seamless thing that you were talking about where if one person, if one relay goes down, if they censor one relay, unless they censor all of the ones in your end profile, then you have a seamless transition to your new relays. [00:58:09] Speaker B: So my question would be, if they do censor all of them, how do you get the new information about your in profile to right the people? [00:58:18] Speaker A: That's when there's an, there's, there is an interruption in that case. But I think it's the same thing with the DHT model. Because of the DHT model, if they censor all of the dhts, there's an interruption in the service and you have to get, you have to, you have to find new DHT servers in order to find, in order to find the information you need to connect to someone. [00:58:37] Speaker B: As I understand it, you don't because the person who owns the private key for Picar can just update and you can still just find. [00:58:47] Speaker A: How do you find them? You can't talk to any DHT nodes. [00:58:52] Speaker B: So you're saying somebody censored the entire BitTorrent network? [00:58:55] Speaker A: Yeah, which is very common. Those nodes are among the ones that are most commonly censored by firewalls. Yeah, I think what I'm trying to say here is that. [00:59:10] Speaker B: But we're talking about like a million nodes here. I don't, I don't know if I don't think I'd ever heard of a time in which the BitTorrent network was totally inaccessible. [00:59:19] Speaker A: I haven't used BitTorrent, but I will. [00:59:22] Speaker B: Say, or the mainline DHT. [00:59:23] Speaker A: It very commonly happens, especially because I'm traveling. When I'm traveling in a country like China, it very commonly happens if I'm trying to access Tor and I can't easily do it. Like I have to keep on cycling through different TOR relays because all the tour relays are publicly known and China just blocks them all on all of their firewall, all their routers, all the known ones. So like people spin up new ones and then those ones aren't blocked, but you have to like keep clicking the button, keep clicking refresh in order to randomly get one of the ones that's not on their list, one of the new ones. I imagine it would be the same thing with BitTorrent. If they're assuming they're doing a similar thing, then if you can't contact the BitTorrent nodes because they're all publicly known and they're all blocked, or most of them are publicly known and most of them are blocked, then you're going to have a hard time finding the information you need to talk to someone. And it's kind of, to me, it's similar to what I would do is I would start putting my identifiers of an IP address that I'm posting at inside of my identity string. And that's what we do in nostr. But if you're using that solution, you're using the nostril solution. [01:00:33] Speaker B: Having to sell Bitcoin hurts, especially when you are certain it is going to be worth more in the future. But you can actually get access to the Fiat without selling it by using a bitcoin backed loan. Maybe this is for an emergency, maybe this is for an investment that you think will do really well, but it won't beat Bitcoin because it's monetizing or this is actually something that you know you'll get back, but the timing just isn't right and you don't want to let Bitcoin go for that span. This is why LEDN was built. They let you borrow against your Bitcoin quickly and easily and Bitcoin is the ultimate collateral. 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And yeah, so the idea is it's a degree of, it's a much larger degree of resiliency. In fact, I don't know of a network comparatively that would be more censorship resistant than the mainline DHT due to its size and like breadth because you would still have a DHT version that was local and most, most banning or firewall or whatever is kind of like too foreign connections. Whereas like there's also DHT like within the country and nodes are coming in and out of it and IP addresses are changing. [01:03:43] Speaker A: It's fascinating. You said there's about 2 million nodes. Where did you get. I doubt that figure because like tor only has 3,000. About 3,000 nodes on the, on the whole tour network. [01:03:54] Speaker B: I read an article that was. That tried to. And I could be wrong. I think it's like a million or something. But I, I remember thinking that like holy crap, is it really number of nodes? Here, let me, let me, let me Perplexity see if it comes up. [01:04:07] Speaker A: Yeah. How many nodes does BitTorrent have this. [01:04:10] Speaker B: How many nodes are in DHT? By 2013, the mainline DHT ranged from 16 to 28 million. So that was kind of in the height of. [01:04:23] Speaker A: That's interesting. I'm looking at a GitHub thread that says around 300 to 360 nodes total. [01:04:31] Speaker B: In the BitTorrent DHT or the mainline DHT. What did you refer to specifically? [01:04:36] Speaker A: I said the thing. So let me just share my screen again. Yeah, share screen questions, Reddit, entire screen share. [01:04:45] Speaker B: I wonder what the difference is between BitTorrent specifically Demlia implementations, the mainline individual clients. Individual clients might connect to. I'm. I'm talking about how many are available on the network. So it says current estimates. [01:05:05] Speaker A: Can you share what you're looking at? [01:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is a perplexity summary. So it, it's wrong sometimes as far as like accuracy, because I did a. [01:05:17] Speaker A: I did a network chart recently where I was comparing the Bitcoin network to other large networks like the Internet and the electricity grid. And the network I found with the most nodes had around I think 120,000. But I, I also thought. I looked at BitTorrent in this, in my little chart. Let me actually go look at it. [01:05:36] Speaker B: So there's Wiki Wand and Diva Portal. We focus on mainline DHT, which with up to 9,5 million nodes is probably the largest DAT DHT overlay deployed on the Internet. So at least based on some. [01:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah, can, can you go back to the previous. I want to do the same. So you're using Perplexity AI. Can you send me the link that you search this and this? [01:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Can you actually just do this? Get this search result? I think I might. [01:06:11] Speaker A: If you share it, I think I might be able to click it or else it'll tell me to like sign up for Perplexity or something. But I want to investigate this and find out. It strikes me as. Who are 2 million people or 10 million people? It said running, running this software that. [01:06:25] Speaker B: I think those are, those are old numbers. I don't. The. The 10 million. I think this is probably a website from a long time ago. This is a PDF. So there's. This is a published thing from a different day. [01:06:36] Speaker A: It's three orders of magnitude. Four. Three orders of magnitude higher than the. The count of Tor, which is really surprising. And I, I don't believe it. [01:06:45] Speaker B: So you want to investigate the 1 million number? Around 1 million was what I read in an article recently and that was. I think the article was published. Yeah, well, sometime late last year. But I mean a million is a big number. So you're right that there's, there's reason to be skeptical of it. [01:07:08] Speaker A: I, I can't read these links because the perplexity wants me to sign up for it. So. But we shouldn't be doing this on the podcast. [01:07:14] Speaker B: The list. You can like export a. [01:07:17] Speaker A: We shouldn't be doing this on the podcast. Anyway, we can do this later. [01:07:20] Speaker B: We'll talk about this afterward. But, but it's, it's interesting nonetheless and I, I think there's, I think it's safe to say the mainline DHT is probably one of the biggest. May. May very well be the most censorship resistant network that you could publish public information on for people to access and then you can update it. Still, it still seems to me like when the onus is when the, when the person who. Is. Who other people are trying to connect to can update one thing of their own accord and they're the only one who can do it because they have the key that can sign for it. And then the network in which that information can be accessed can be accessed by anyone and can't be. Is extremely difficult to shut down. Possibly the most difficult to shut down of networks. That feels like the best case scenario for a potential solution to the DNS problem. If we're worried about that degree of censorship because it means the users can simply use that key and by default their client speaking that Picar or pair stack, you know, whatever it is, language can always just find wherever that information is. So it would be like if the Pirate Bay didn't have to set up a whole bunch of mirrors and you know, they didn't have to do pirate bay se, piratebay.org, pirate bay. Whatever and then you have to go search for where's the new one? Is that whatever I, I've just pasted, let's say their key into the address bar and every single time it just went to their new location that they signed. So I knew it was them and they're the only one who can update it. And their website just always showed up no matter when it got censored because they always had something hosted somewhere in the world that was accessible. So it again, it is a little bit of a hacky solution because it's kind of like a layer on top of. And it still may use DNS if you wish to use that. But it seems very, very interesting in the context of where I think one of the trade offs or limitations to NOSTR is and it seems like a more complete solution to that. And both the pear stack and PubKey use that model though PubKey is the one that uses mainline DHT, whereas a much smaller network part. [01:09:38] Speaker A: If the DHT nodes were privately known, if, if they weren't shared publicly, you. [01:09:44] Speaker B: Could do them over to her. [01:09:46] Speaker A: Well yeah, but then, then you're relying on stacking. Stacking directory nodes. [01:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Often. [01:09:52] Speaker A: I mean that is, it is a solution like it, it works. The TOR nodes promise not to censor anything and so far they seem to be keeping their promise. But you know, how long can you rely on that? I don't know, maybe, maybe forever, but probably not. But anyway, which works for now. But what I was saying was if they were shared privately, if you only found out about the DHT nodes by someone telling you this is an IP address you can connect to, then it would, it wouldn't be automated, it would be a manual process to find someone, which is the worst case scenario in Noster. If they're public, then it surprises me that they're not just on an automatic ban list in countries like China and in like public libraries and stuff like that. It surprises me that they're not just automatically banned because if the list is public, I imagine any library or any public network is not going to want people to be connecting to them through them because who wants to be downloading illegal movies in my coffee shop or whatever. So if that's happening, then you're back to the private one. Like the only way you can actually connect to them if they're all publicly known is, is by asking for ones that aren't publicly known. And then you're at the Noster. Worst case scenario. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know, it sounds like there's millions of These nodes and it's just too much hassle to put them all in a ban list. I'm skeptical of this claim. [01:11:14] Speaker B: That's certainly the concept behind why it's done the way it is is because you have to block out entire sections of IP addresses because they will aggregate into blobs based on where they are in the DHT rather than their actual IP address. So you'll get this huge range of IP addresses that randomly come out of, in and out of different parts of the dht. I tried to make sense of this for the audience is probably confused as hell, but there's a, there's an episode where we talk about how the DHT works and we just kind of like go down a technical rabbit hole for that. And there's a couple fantastic videos that do such a good job of making it easy to picture on YouTube. So I'll have the links to that. If a bunch of people are going what the hell are y' all talking about? [01:12:00] Speaker A: But so part of the thing that I this illustrates, the privacy is hard. [01:12:07] Speaker B: Yes, yes, it does, doesn't it? Yes, it absolutely. [01:12:10] Speaker A: If you are confused, that's because it's really difficult to do things in a privacy preserving manner. Especially with. If you're also trying to create a public network, it's. It's hard to navigate. I want a public network, but I also want to be private. I want to be a node in a public network and also be private. One thing that I think is overlooked, I, I recently thought of this privacy characteristic of the Lightning network that I, I don't think anyone's talked about and I think it's been overlooked. So your view, your listeners can be the first ones to hear about this. You can delete your Lightning transactions. So unlike a blockchain, a blockchain is an append only database and every transaction that gets stored in a blockchain is stored there forever. Lightning transactions don't go on a blockchain. Where do they go? A SQL database. And what's great about SQL databases are they're not append only, they have a delete function. So you can turn off your Lightning node, open up its database in any SQL editor and say select all delete and you're deleted. Your transaction history, which is a wonderful privacy tool, can't do that on a blockchain. So one of the things I want to do is actually do that in a workshop. Be like how to gain privacy on the Lightning Network. Delete. I don't have a transaction history. What are you talking about? So that'd be a really fun thing. And then be. Yeah, it's a trick that you can do when you're not using a blockchain to store your transaction history. [01:13:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the huge. That's, that's another major thing is that because the blockchain is just infinitely stored. So maybe you have privacy now, but in 10 years, who knows what people figure out or you know, backtrace like how the technology works or whatever. And suddenly they do find some sort of an exploit and now they can figure out and you've got a permanent record to dig through. Whereas lightning, like you said, cut your lightning node off or just refresh your, you know, you at least need the transaction history in order to enforce. Well, I guess you only need the. [01:14:20] Speaker A: You only need the pre image and the transaction id. [01:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So you actually don't need a lot of the data. You could delete a time. [01:14:28] Speaker A: You don't need the timing info, you don't need the balance info. [01:14:30] Speaker B: You can, no, you just need to watch new transactions. So you're, you're pretty good. You need pre image and a hash. That's it. But other than that, you could also get rid of the pre images and the hashes just by refreshing your channel, you know, like, which cost you one fee on the Bitcoin network. So it's very easy to keep everything live and delete, securely delete all of your history and never need it again. [01:14:53] Speaker A: Now this is a difference with Monero. Like, so the reason this occurred to me was I was reading about in many of the cases that I published on moneroleaks xyz, the way they traced them was they arrested the guy for some other reason. Like they, they found him with drugs in possession. For example, one of the guys is a drug dealer and they found him with drugs in possession. So they arrested him. While they were doing a search of like his, his house, they found a Monero wallet and, and discovered that on this guy's computer there was this Monero wallet and he was running the drug market that they were after. And they were like, wow, we got him. So that was like one of the, one of the cases where they, it was like, I don't know, it's on Monero Leaks xyz. And so when I put, when I posted this as an example of tracing Monero, this is one of the things the Monero people got mad about. They were like, they didn't trace him, they found him because he had drugs on him. Like, that's not Monero's fault that he got caught because of that. And then they just looked up his transaction history because they got his private keys. Like, how is Monero supposed to help you if they get your private keys? And so I go back to the thing is, Monero's designed so that you publish all your transactions on a blockchain. And because you do that, your private keys have a cryptographic tie to every transaction you've ever made. And that's a bad for privacy. If you use lightning, then you don't have that and you can actually regularly delete your transaction history. And I actually do. So I was thinking, what if this happened to me? If I got arrested for something and then they searched my computer and found my lightning wallet, what would they find on there? And I was like, well, the things I mostly use lightning for, or that I very often use lightning for are experiments where I will think of some new idea. I will make a lightning. I will create a lightning wallet, buy a channel, do some test transactions, make a video about it, and then I'll delete that wallet. Like, I don't need it anymore. So I will actually get rid of it and get rid of that whole transaction history, get rid of the channel, move the funds to somewhere else, because I don't want them on an experimental node. And I'm like, so if that happened to me, if they, if, if I got arrested, then they searched and found a lightning wallet. They would find like two or three transactions on it and nothing else. Like, they wouldn't have my whole history. So I was like, that's interesting. And so I. But no one really talks about this thing that you can do on lighting, which is like, just by changing wallets, you delete your transaction history, which is very easy to do. Looking further into it, I found that there's a plugin for core Lightning called Auto Clean that will do this on a schedule. You can schedule it to automatically delete your transaction history and it'll add a command so that at any moment you can just say, delete this transaction from my history. And it'll do it, which is really cool. [01:17:42] Speaker B: So that's pretty dope. I did not know about that. I like that a lot. [01:17:47] Speaker A: I know. Part of why I do this stuff is to bring awareness. Because even bitcoiners are like, sometimes when they read through the stuff on Monero leaks, they're like, some of these examples like, he got the private key. How is that Monero's fault? I'm like, because it's Monero's fault that your Private keys are permanently attached to your transaction history and on Lightning they're not. So then I bring up something like Autoclean and Bitcoiners are like, oh, I didn't know we could do this. I didn't know. This is a feature of Lightning privacy is that you can delete your transaction history securely. [01:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's pretty dope. I'm definitely going to have a, have to do a link for that one for anybody who wants to check that out, because I want to. I can probably do that on like my start 9 or something pretty easily. [01:18:28] Speaker A: One of the guys on my, on where I was debating with concerning Monero, he said you can do a similar thing with Monero. Like although your transaction histories are permanently on the blockchain, your private keys are not necessarily permanently in your possession. So what you could do is rotate to a new Monero wallet and then delete your Monero private keys and then you'd be in a similar situation. All of that history, while it would be on the blockchain, it wouldn't be connected to you because your private key is gone. Which is true. And that's a thing that you, that I would, if I was in the Monero community, I would recommend people do that. But the Monero software is built around the assumption that you keep your private keys forever. For example, they have this very commonly used feature called a contact list where every time you give someone your Monero address, it asks typical wallet software will ask you, do you want to save this as a contact for that, for that person so that if you want to send them money in the future, you don't have to get an address from them. [01:19:22] Speaker B: Suck if you change your address and a whole bunch of people have you as contacts and they say it would suck. [01:19:28] Speaker A: But Lightning doesn't have this problem because on Lightning your private keys have to be available to co sign your transactions. And when someone sends you money, you have to sign a revocation key, revoking the old state in your Lightning channel. So if you delete your Lightning private keys after, you know, moving your funds out, it's quite, it's secure. No one can send you money now at that channel because you can't sign to update the state. So it's actually secure on Lightning to delete your private keys. And it's not on Monero because they encourage address reuse. Of course Monero people will say address reuse isn't a thing on Monero because Monero addresses use similar technology to silent payments. But it still is. There is address Reuse because it's non interactive, they don't have to. If you give someone your Monero address in order to do the silent payments trick, they don't need to interact with you. They can just do it on their own and send money to that key, not knowing you deleted it. That's why Monero, in the Monero community, it's like never delete your private keys. Someone might have you in a contact list and you might lose money or they might lose money and you. Because they tried to send you money. [01:20:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Which you can keep the exact same private keys, refresh your channel and Lightning and okay, you're good to go. You never worry about it and you. [01:20:44] Speaker A: Know, but even, even if you're not, even if you don't know how to use Core Lightning and install a plugin, you can always. You can safely delete your channel, close your channels, migrate to a new wallet and then delete your private. Delete the old wallet and that's, that's secure. You're not going to lose money by doing that because on Lightning you. No one can send you money unless you co. Sign. So they have to send you a new channel anyway. That's, that's just a really cool feature. [01:21:08] Speaker B: Whatever happened to keysend? [01:21:11] Speaker A: It's still a thing, but even with, even with keysend. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Keysend was dope. I loved keysend. [01:21:17] Speaker A: You can still do it. [01:21:18] Speaker B: Do most wallets support it? Because I feel like just. I never see it anywhere. [01:21:23] Speaker A: I don't think. No, I probably. Most wallets don't. Most wallets want you to give in to get an invoice from the guy. In theory though, you could. I think there are some wallets that still do it, but you can. If you know someone's public node public key, you can send it. On the protocol level you can still do keysign. So you could just design a wallet that lets you. But even with keysend though, if you send someone's public key, they still have to do a state update in their channel in order to receive that money or else it'll just fail. So if they deleted that key, it's still safe. Like you could try to do a key send and if they don't have the key, it'll just fail. [01:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:54] Speaker A: Then neither party loses money. [01:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I see Monero needs NOSTR or PUB key contacts so that they can update their private keys and still be found. [01:22:10] Speaker A: So these are like. These are what I'm trying to, I'm trying to draw attention to the fact that these, these privacy technologies exist on Lightning. And a lot of people, even some of the people who made these technologies, didn't realize that they're privacy solutions. I don't think the autoclean guys were thinking about deleting your transaction history as a privacy measure. I think they were doing it to save database storage because lightning databases can get really big if you're like running a merchant node. So that's why I think they did it. But it's also a really cool privacy feature. They just don't. Didn't think of, or at least I don't think they thought of it. [01:22:40] Speaker B: It wasn't under that context, but it's actually very, very helpful in that context. So, yeah, it's interesting. You know, you also talked about a couple of projects that you've been. Been working on. What was the one of them started with like a P or something that you said I might be interested in what break down what else you've been building because you're always, you're always doing something new. [01:23:01] Speaker A: Hang on, let me go and make sure this is. [01:23:04] Speaker B: You don't even know what all you built. [01:23:06] Speaker A: See, it's true, it's true. I'm always building stuff and I don't, I don't. It's not always top of mind. So the, the topmost item on my GitHub repository is called Shred Forums. [01:23:17] Speaker B: Okay. Yes, you talk. You did mention that one too. [01:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah. So Shred Forums is my version of Stacker News. Have you ever used Stacker News Guy? [01:23:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:28] Speaker A: What do you, what do you use it for? [01:23:31] Speaker B: I kind of think about it like a Reddit Noster partner sort of thing. Like I, I go up there just to kind of see like what's kind of the new, the new thing. It's, it's just one of the places that I go to think about getting news or see what people are talking about in Bitcoin, basically. [01:23:48] Speaker A: I often used it when researching for my bit devs in Mexico. There's a big, there's a big technical community on Snap your news. And so I would go there and I would find the recent technical topics. I would sort by, you know, the top post of the month and I'd go through like that. And it's cool to talk about it through the devs anyway. Second is great for that and you could. It's also great for arguing with people. You can get into long threads or you go back and forth about stuff like what we're talking about today. But a cool feature of Secre News is that content was always gated by Having to pay a lightning invoice every time you wanted to post something. And that made it. So there's very little spam on the network or on. Not, not network, just on that website. There's very little spam because you have to pay in order to post and then people can reward you. So you, if you make a good post, you recoup your the cost of posting it. But if you're a spammer you just lose money and then, and then you go away. That's the great thing about Stacker News. But they changed. They changed because Lightning has poor reliability of actually getting a payment completed. Stacker News made a custodial wallet where the users would have, they would manage all the funds and they would just do internal payments. When around the time when the tornado cash devs got arrested, they started phasing out their custodial wallet and like we want to move to a non custodial option. But there was a problem with moving to a non custodial option is that as soon as they tried to get users doing that payments started failing. And then once the payments started failing, the quality of the network suffered because you couldn't actually pay to post if your payment fails. So your post doesn't work. And if you're like trying to reward someone for a good post and your payment fails, they don't get the reward. So what they ended up doing was moving to a credit system where you buy credits and then those credits are like internally transferable but you can't withdraw them as bitcoin. And so they, they made this credit system that was like their workaround for this. But now whenever I, when I you I. When I started logging into Stacker News after this credit system was in place, there was a big buy credits button that was like it very prominently featured and it was all about cowboy credits. Now they called them cowboy credits. It was like buy cowboy credits. There were people selling cowboy credits. There was a, a market for trading cowboy credits against bitcoin. I was like this feels very altcoiny. I've been on altcoin discussion forums that are the exact same thing as this except they use an altcoin instead of a credit system. So I wanted something that doesn't that has the way Stacker News was before they introduced cowboy credits where it wasn't as reliable but still it was self custodial and they weren't shilling credits all the time. So that's what Shred forums is. It's my own version of Stacker News, my own alternative website. For that where you have to pay to post and mine's open source. You can put in any. If you self host thread forums you can put in any lightning address as the recipient of the. Of the payments people have to post. [01:26:55] Speaker B: What's the URL? [01:26:58] Speaker A: It's just. If you here, I will just share it in there. It's not. Yeah, it's not. [01:27:04] Speaker B: Super speakable. [01:27:07] Speaker A: It isn't ready yet. It's not. It's not ready yet. [01:27:09] Speaker B: Oh, gotcha. [01:27:09] Speaker A: It's a GitHub but you know, I build in the open so there's, there's, there's. You can just see me testing the, testing the website and then one of their guys posting on there and you'll see a lot of errors on the website. Anyway, the idea is I wanted a free and open source very into stacker nibs where anyone could replace. Instead of the money going to Kion's node, they could just set up any lightning address as the recipient of the funds for paying to post. And then once again it would be just like you can, you can zap people and make comments and everything's gated by having to make a sacrifice to make your post. So that's what it's supposed to be. It's not really working. Or you know, some functions are working and some aren't yet. But anyway, I've been working on that. So that's, that is a. That's one of my Noster. Noster based projects. Sweet. So what else do I got? [01:27:59] Speaker B: I'm trying this. I'm paying an invoice right now. [01:28:02] Speaker A: Okay. It's like a 10 set invoice and it gets you 30 posts so be aware of that. And the money goes to me right now what I was hoping to do when it's ready is I was gonna, I was gonna set it to go to open sats and it would make it a higher amount. So it'd be like pay a hundred or a thousand sats to get 30 posts and then you would. All that money would go to open sats which would be much cooler. [01:28:26] Speaker B: But it's dope. Yeah. [01:28:27] Speaker A: Yeah, but right. It's free and open source and so you can just put in any lightning address as the recipient of the funds, which is neat. And then all the clients would just honor whatever is whatever that parameter is. So one of the projects I did that you'd probably be more interested in too, especially since you're talking about privacy is lightning blinder. So that was a project where I wanted, I wanted to prove Phoenix wrong. Phoenix Wallet. So when I talk about Lightning privacy with the Monero people and I say Lightning has better privacy than Monero, they will often say, what wallet do you recommend? And I always say, Phoenix, Phoenix is the best. Lightning Wallet. And then they will say, if you go to Phoenix's website, they have a FAQ about privacy. Phoenix Wallet. Where is their website? I'll post it in your chat. They have an faq. Here it is. And in their FAQ they have a privacy section. How private are my payments on Phoenix? And it says, the current version of Phoenix offers no advantage regarding privacy over existing hosted custodial wallets. We Async know the final destination and amount of payments, and I wanted to prove them wrong. [01:29:49] Speaker B: I was about to say that's technically not true with LM proxy. I don't think just using LM proxy. Right. [01:29:55] Speaker A: If you use LM proxy, then they don't know the destination. So I issued one of my challenges to Async. I said, hey, Async, you claim that you know the destination of payments. Well, I made a payment. Tell me the destination. And so they replied to my thread and they said, we don't know the destination of your payment and we don't know if you're using a proxy, then we don't know the destination. I was like, well, that's great. So you're. The statement on your website is wrong. But also, you can never know if someone's using a proxy because proxy software is free and open source. You could be running one. I could be running one. 10 million people could be running one. The person that looks like you're paying might just be a proxy and they have no way of knowing. So I made software called Lightning Blinder where you can run proxy software on a cell phone. You can. And I made it so that you can even use, you can even use Phoenix Wallet as the routing node that you're routing payments through. [01:30:51] Speaker B: Oh man, that would be cool. So I could like open up my own channel with Phoenix and then literally use kind of like combine Phoenix payment reliability and use it as a, as a routing node. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So Phoenix also will sell you. I don't know if this is in their fact, but they don't, they claim they don't support routing. They say you can't support. You can't route through Phoenix. Well, there's no routing logic. If someone tries to open a channel to you, it'll just fail. But they're wrong. They're wrong that it doesn't support routing because it has a send button and A receive button. And that means it supports Atomic Swaps. [01:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah, because it's LM proxy is in an invoice. You can just do this in an invoice. [01:31:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly correct. So I made software that does the routing logic separately and just asks Phoenix Wallet just to pay an invoice or create an invoice. And then it doesn't need routing logic because I'm doing it separately in this separate app. So that's what Lightning Blinder is. It makes it so that you can plug. You can. You can have Phoenix Wallet and Lightning Blinder running on your phone. Your phone will sometimes get a notification and it'll be like, hey, blue bling. And you look at it and it's like someone wants to route a payment worth $10 through your wallet. Do you want to. Do you want to do this? You'll get $0.15 or whatever your fee is. You'd be like, sure. And it'll ask you to create an invoice for them to pay and then pay an invoice. And that's. That's how it works. [01:32:17] Speaker B: So it just totally does it in just like the top. The software on top. That's. [01:32:21] Speaker A: I just do all the routing logic and all the creation of the atomic swaps and the verification of the swap was done correctly. I do all of that separately. So that means you can route payments through Phoenix File. And I was like, not only do you not know if the person is receiving money, you also don't know if they're sending money because they might just be forwarding a payment using Lightning Blinder. Because you can run that on your phone and make money, which is, which is great. [01:32:44] Speaker B: That is so cool. [01:32:45] Speaker A: But you can also, you can hook it up to any Lightning Wallet that can send and receive payments. And because all Lightning payments are Atomic Swaps, that means all wallets support Atomic swaps and therefore you can route through them. [01:32:57] Speaker B: You can do whatever you want with it. [01:32:58] Speaker A: Yeah, you can do. Yep. [01:33:01] Speaker B: And this always also gets me with this whole, like, this is kind of part of the conversation about like smart contracts and needing like all of this, like new capabilities and stuff with the blockchain and needing order books and all this stuff. And all I can think is that like, you know, with Taproot assets and Lightning, when it comes to, just in the context of like stable coins, is that the fact that the buyer and the seller, all they have to do is agree on a price and you have Atomic Swaps built in. You don't need some service provider and some Giant order book or a blockchain managing this, because you can literally do it in the lightning invoice for whatever the swap amount is and then settle it in sats, even if you have totally different currencies on either end of it. And suddenly you're like, that's a live market for currency swapping where you don't even have to know if the other person is swapping a currency. So just like you were saying that you don't know where the payment is going to because they could be using lightning blinder or LM Proxy or something. You also don't know if they're receiving stablecoin. You also don't know if they're receiving tether or Iranian. The Iranian currency. It could literally be anything on the other end of it and you're fulfilling a pay for that. So you can't even sanction a currency if there's like a stable coin on the other end because you don't know where it's going to or what it's being fulfilled with because you can atomic swap through the sats invoice and all they ever see are sats to the next node and that's it. [01:34:38] Speaker A: Yeah. In the cases that I've examined, it has never seemed to matter. It's never come up that it mattered which currency the recipient received. It was always just, did they receive any value at all for an illegal good or service? But also, I'm only looking at criminal cases because those are the ones that are. Information's publicly available. [01:34:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:34:59] Speaker A: There's also like corporate level tracing where people, where corporations want to find out your transaction history so they can serve you ads and just get a better profile on you for credit history and credit scores and stuff. And so I always have to catch myself when I'm thinking about these cases. I'm always thinking, how would you solve a government attack? But it's not just that corporations would probably care what currency you're using. That would be part of their profile on you. So guarding against that is also a consideration. [01:35:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Been going for quite a bit and I don't want to take up like a ton of your time, but we haven't even gotten to filters. [01:35:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, it's true. Well, I've got time, so if you want to. [01:35:37] Speaker B: You got time. All right. [01:35:38] Speaker A: Well, you can make two episodes without. [01:35:40] Speaker B: Adding a whole another hour to this or if it seems like this rabbit hole is going to be ridiculous. But I'm. I wanted to get your take on it because you, you're one of the people that I trust in bitcoin, there's like a. There's probably like maybe 10 people that I trust in bitcoin to always have their own opinion about a thing, and it never perfectly aligns with other people. So I want to get your take on the whole filter thing on knots versus core, the whole kind of datum and stratum v2 and how that plays into this. Like, what's kind of your big picture? How do you think about this whole problem? How do you frame it in your mind before you start making assessments about individual pieces of it? [01:36:25] Speaker A: Let me do an assessment about an individual piece of it first. [01:36:28] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Start there. Start there. That's fine. Big or small? Small to big. [01:36:32] Speaker A: I don't care. The thing that I like best about the filter debate. I do. I do. My position on the filter debate is that I'm. I'm in favor of the filters and want to keep the ones that limit spam. But the thing that I like best about this whole debate is it's getting people to run nodes. So people haven't been looking at what node software they're running probably ever in Bitcoin. They just download Bitcoin core now. They're actually like, maybe I should be running a different. Maybe I should be running different software. They're like, taking a look, they're seeing who's developing these things. They're checking their credentials. That's good. That should have been something we were doing or people were doing all along, and now they're doing it because there's drama about, about this bitcoin, about this not fork, this operator stuff. [01:37:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:19] Speaker A: So that's my favorite thing is, like, it's cool to see the knots count go up, but it's even cooler to see the total node count go up. And just people deciding, I'm going to run a node now because of this drama. But yeah, I'm in favor of the filters. I think they help. Recently there was someone who posted a huge spam letter on the blockchain using opera terms. And I don't. I. I don't know exactly what it was about. I think it has to do with Islam and, like, why that. Why Islam is bad. Anyway, this letter that she posted took. It took her a really long time to figure out how to do it. She. She. Part of her letter explains how she did it because she's not. Before this. She wasn't a programmer, but apparently she like asked an AI. She wanted to put this post this long letter about is. I think it's about Islam. Parts of it are about Islam. I think it's like a cultural manifesto or something. She wanted to post this thing, asked an AI how to do it, and it was like, you can post messages and data using oper. And then she was like, okay, help me make a transaction that does this. She, like, bought some bitcoin, put it in an address, created this really long oper and tried to post it, and it didn't work. Bitcoin rejected it because of the filters. They say you're not allowed to have OP returns that are larger than 80 bytes. So then in order to get around that, she was kind of a cool story. She learned to code like she had the AI teacher how to split her UTXO into multiple chunks. She tested it on regtest. [01:38:48] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [01:38:49] Speaker A: Where she split her letter into 80 byte chunks, each of which was attached to a different, like, utxo. And then she tested it on reg test, which is exactly what you're supposed to do. Way better than most actual bitcoin developers. Way better than me. I just go straight to, like, Signet or something. Yeah, I lose Signet coins all the time doing tests on Signet. And it's fine. That's also what those are for. Anyway, she did it the right way and actually tested it on her own node first. And then eventually she got something that worked and she did it with real bitcoin and she posted this long layer on the blockchain. But the cool thing about this was people will say the filters don't work because people can post as much data as they want using, like, opreturn Bot or Libra Relay that have these deals with miners and, like, private mempools. But I think her case where she actually wrote a letter about how she did it proves that the filters do work. And she didn't know about those. Those tools. She didn't know that there were private mempools that she could submit her transaction to. She just saw I tried to do a thing. It didn't work. And so I had to learn to code in order to get. In order to, like, make it. In order to make the her transactions match what the filters were expecting. So I think that proves the filters work. So they do. They have an effect. Most spammers aren't motivated enough to go through all of that. If they try it and it doesn't work, they're just going to, okay, it didn't work and they'll try something else. They'll do something else with their time. But yeah, this girl Demonstrates that when spammers say, you know, or when the filter, the anti filter people, the spam fans say filters don't work. Here's, here's a case where they did. [01:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah, and what's funny is that I don't understand the, the logic or the failure to recognize the simple logic that that was a success of the filters when they'll point to the fact that it still got published to the chain and they're like, it didn't work. And like, the purpose of a filter is not to 100% stop a thing, it's to add a marginal cost to poor use of the thing. Like hashcash didn't stop you from getting spam, it just made it so that if you were honest and you were working within the, the spam, you weren't actually spamming, that it was easy and everything worked normally and you didn't have to think about it or do a whole bunch of work. But if you were spamming, it cost something that there is a marginal cost to actually doing it. So she actually, this case is a perfect example of she actually had to be very motivated and find alternative ways to accomplish something because it didn't just normally work without, without any friction. Because her specifically her message was, was a form of spam. It was not being, it was not using Bitcoin for the purpose of Bitcoin. And I think it makes, it also makes perfect sense when people are like, oh, spam is subjective, you can't know. It's like, well, that's exactly why it makes sense to let node runners make that decision because they're the ones maintaining the information and the, the relaying of that information on the network. You're the, that's the person who gets to decide what is spam in their context. And that, that all that seems perfectly intuitive to me. Like the fact that she got in has nothing to do with whether or not the filters work. The cost to get into the network of putting that out there is, is the determination as to whether or not they worked. And the very post itself is an indication that it did in fact work. It added a significant marginal cost that she had to go way out of her way. And something that took what paragraphs of explanation as to how it worked just to get in, you know, just to. [01:42:34] Speaker A: Bypass the filter or not bypass, just to be compatible with the filter, I guess, is the way to put it. [01:42:39] Speaker B: And I don't understand not recognizing that when I feel like all the people who, who are on that side of the argument would actually 100% recognize the fact that that is a simple logic that does prove exactly the case in any other context. But it's like it can't be allowed in this because, because somehow the suggestion of just recognizing one simple fact of doesn't, it doesn't weigh. It doesn't immediately mean that one person is, one group is right and one is not. But absolutely on that issue, yes, filters add a marginal cost. You know, like that doesn't mean that your argument is null and void, but argue the things that actually are real, you know, like there are good arguments still for not having filters, even if you, there's a marginal cost to adding them, you know. [01:43:28] Speaker A: Yeah. So one, one factor in this, I think it's very easy for programmers to forget how specialized their knowledge is. [01:43:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:37] Speaker A: So like it's very easy for me to bypass the filters. I know the existing tools. I've probably written, I think I have written some private mempool software and like I've worked on some of this stuff, so I know how to do it. And it's very, if you're in this space, you can be like, it's no real difficulty at all. Like there are websites for it and there's, there's, there's easy tools for it, there's forums on how to do it. But for most people who come into this space, they don't have that. They don't have that background of knowing those things exist. They're going to download a wallet, they're going to. If their wallet has like a message utility, which most don't even have a message. Most wallets don't support operation to begin with, but if their wallet does support Opera Turn, it's going to have the default filters built in almost always. Like the amount of wallets that let you create really long ones I think is zero. I don't think there is a wall that lets you do it. I think there's just some websites that let you do it. And I watched Peter Todd do it one day when he was having a debate with me or not a formal debate which we were sitting next to each other at a conference arguing about filters. And he was like, look how easy it is. And he gets on his computer, opens up Libre Relay, opens up his command line utility, types in the message, hits Enter, then configures. He's like, oh wait, I forgot to set the right fee. I have to check what the right fee rates are currently. Then he, three minutes later he's look, it was easy, like, yeah, for, for us it's easy. [01:44:59] Speaker B: But most people Peter Todd for the dude that HBO thinks is freaking satoshi. Like that's not, you know, not in the realm of reality for 99.9% of the people that we are talking about and concerned about using this maliciously. [01:45:18] Speaker A: So like they don't. Many developers don't see that how much background knowledge they have that makes it so that for them there are no filters because they. They know how to contact miners directly or use the software that automates some of that. But they, but like most people just don't know how to do that. And so adding a bit of friction and saying here's all all the wallets, almost all the wallets respect the filters. And so it makes it so that there's less spam in the blockchain if you remove the filters then likely the default behavior of wallets forthcoming. If they have up return feature which they probably most of them still won't. But if they do add that feature it'll be you can do any size because Bitcoin lets you now by default. It's easy now don't have to go through special tools. So yeah, I think it has a poor effect. But on the bright side, just opening up a debate around it has gotten people to run nodes. And that's a. That is a good effect. That is in my opinion more important than the bad effect of removing the filters. So yeah, so yeah, it's a. There's that we can all. We can all be happy that more people are running nodes. [01:46:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I wonder, I wonder if there's. I guess way too subjective, but it would be interesting to think about. Like okay, you know, considering we only had like, was it like 50, 60,000 nodes on the network? Right. Like if you could add 10,000 nodes and kind of make the base the core, you know, no pun intended. The core of Bitcoin more secure and more decentralized and run in more locations around the world. [01:46:51] Speaker A: Let's have a filter debate all the time. [01:46:53] Speaker B: Horrible filter debate in a permanent state just so that we can get more people to care about it and run nodes just so that we can get more nodes on the network for no other reason. [01:47:03] Speaker A: Constant, no drama, which would make a really important number go up in Bitcoin. [01:47:08] Speaker B: Constant node drama is Bitcoin's path to resiliency and sovereignty. [01:47:16] Speaker A: Never let it get boring in here. [01:47:17] Speaker B: No. Always angry, always fighting, always running, taking sides. Oh man. [01:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So we've gone through some of my latest projects. I forget what the one is that I told you I wanted to about talk, talk about. [01:47:32] Speaker B: Yeah, there was another one. I feel like. [01:47:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm looking through Papa Swaps. [01:47:37] Speaker B: Papa Swaps, that's the one. I told you. You started with a P. Yeah, it did. [01:47:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So Papa Swaps are also a. Get a repo on my GitHub, although this one does not have any code in my GitHub. I actually accidentally deleted the code base. Like last week. I. I ran. I ran RM the RM command on my home directory by accident, thinking I was deleting a direct. Well, I was doing what I was talking about. I was. I'd done one of my Lightning experiments, didn't need the wallet anymore, was trying to delete it, had a typo and accidentally deleted my. My code base for Papa Swaps. [01:48:12] Speaker B: And now it's gone forever. Now you can't even find it. I'll just rewrite it. [01:48:16] Speaker A: I could have. I could have. I could have like done hard drive recovery stuff, but I didn't. I just. It didn't take me that long to write. So just write it again. Anyway, the protocol description is on my GitHub and now I just have to implement it. So what they are is an improvement, I think, on Submarine swaps. So have you ever used Submarine swaps on the Lightning network or on the base layer? [01:48:45] Speaker B: No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I would have done it when I've swapped to liquid. And then also there's like a. Isn't it Submarine swaps if you're doing the market, the lightning market thing for liquidity. [01:49:03] Speaker A: Lightning market thing for liquidity. Like liquidity ads. [01:49:07] Speaker B: Liquidity ads. Isn't that. I think that's the one. [01:49:10] Speaker A: Wait, no, I don't know if liquidity. It might. It would. It would benefit from using them, but I don't know if they actually use them in the core Lightning's implementation. I doubt it. [01:49:18] Speaker B: No doubt. Undoubtedly. I feel like I have done Submarine swaps in some context. Yeah, I swap stuff. [01:49:24] Speaker A: One person surprised me recently by talking about how they use Submarine Swaps. They were talking about a frustration they had with Phoenix Wallet, which to me is not a frustration, but is a joy, which is on Phoenix Wallet. If I have money on like Phoenix. Well, gives you a single unified balance between Lightning and base layer. Everything's on Lightning on Phoenix Wallet, but they support splicing in and splicing out. So if I want to pay someone on the base layer, I just scan a regular bitcoin address and hit pay and we'll do a single transaction, splice out, and it'll go on the base layer. I think it's great. But I was talking to someone recently and they were like, I hate Phoenix Wallet. I hate that Phoenix Wallet does that because every time I send to someone on the base layer, my inbound capacity drops. And now I can receive less money on Lightning or if someone sends me more than I have inbound capacity for, I have to pay a new fee for that. It's like, yeah, they found it annoying and they said, so the workaround for me is submarine swaps. They go to Bolt's Exchange, which is a submarine swap provider, and they say, I want to. They put paste in the address. They want to pay. It'll give them a Lightning invoice. They use Phoenix well to pay the Lightning invoice. That means their capacity stays the same. It just changes your balance on your. On your side of the channel versus your counterparty side of the channel, but the total capacity stays the same. And then Phoenix and then Belt Exchange will. Will send money to the base layer address. Well, so this person said this and I was like a little bit blown away. I was like, to me, the fact that I don't have to go to this Bolts exchange in order to do this is. That is a huge benefit. If I want to send some money, I can just do it straight from Phoenix Wallet and it's cheaper because the splice is only one transaction, whereas Boltz Exchange is two transactions. They have to set up the submarine swap, which involves putting money into a base layer address. And then once you pay the Lightning invoice, you get a secret called a pre image that you can use to take the money out of that light bitcoin address and send it to your intended recipient. So it's always two transactions on Volt's Exchange. And then a light bulb clicked. I was like, there's a way to do Submarine swaps with only one transaction instead of two. So I wrote a specification on my GitHub for how to do it, and I wrote most of the code base before I deleted it. And I thought of a way to do the reverse. To do if. If you have money on Lightning and you go to the base layer, PapaSwaps will let you do that in one single transaction instead of requiring two. But also I thought of a way to do the reverse where if you have money on the base layer and you want to go to Lightning, you can. Well, actually, I didn't think of this way. I found a document by Lightning Labs in which they outlined a way to do this that they Also have a nickel implemented so. But the result is it's a two way protocol. You can do both. You can do from Lightning to the base layer in one transaction or from the base layer to Lightning in one transaction without changing your outbound capacity like a splice does. So that's. That's pop the swaps and there you can read about it right now. But I haven't. I. I only half implemented it and then I deleted it. So it'll have to. Someone else will have to do it or I'll have to get interested enough again to. To actually finish my implementation or restart and then finish my implementation. [01:52:31] Speaker B: That's hilarious. You just. That's. That's some. That's some. I build too much privilege right there is that I accidentally deleted the whole thing. But it doesn't matter because if only did it again and I'll just. I'll just write it. I'll just write the whole app again in like a couple of hours. [01:52:48] Speaker A: Well I also tried to get. What's it. The guy from Boltz Exchange is. I think he's like. Is definitely. He's really. He's got the chops to do it. So I told him to take a look at the protocol and I thought maybe he would implement it but he didn't. He didn't seem to like it. So I don't think. I don't think he's going to do it. [01:53:05] Speaker B: But that would be helpful. [01:53:08] Speaker A: Well that's what I said it would because half of his costs go to creating these. Creating these swap transactions and he has to pass those costs on to his users and so he compete. What he competes with is the non atomic swap services like Fixed Float and Change now and these other ones that will do it. They only do it in one transaction but it's just custodial. You just send them the. You send them the bitcoin and then they pay a lightning invoice or you send them. You pay a lightning invoice and then they pay a bitcoin address. It only involves one base layer transaction so that's who he's competing against. But of course those services go down all the time just take their users. [01:53:44] Speaker B: Money. [01:53:46] Speaker A: Which he can't do. He can't. If. If he goes down users don't lose anything which is great but he's so the way that my protocol works it involves new things that he doesn't currently support. It involves pre signed transactions. You basically. What you basically do is you prepare to fund the lightning channel or it doesn't end up going on chain. But like you prepare to fund a lightning channel and you prepare a foreclosure of that lighting channel and then you just end up broadcast you're doing. You do a transaction cut through and you just end up broadcasting the one transaction, the finalization thing. And if at any phase anyone stops cooperating, then you go through the path of actually creating the channel and then doing the foreclosure from it. But the result is only one transaction goes on chain in the happy path. But he was like, it's a really complicated thing to set up a, to set up a lightning channel in the browser for your user. The Mutiny guys learned about that and it's just like you have to have, you have to have pre signed transactions. You have to tell the, you have to have the user store them somehow and then come back if something fails. So he said it's just not. He doesn't think it's worth it. So he's not going to do it. But I think it is, I think it saves you 50% and makes it, makes it gives you better trust assumptions and lower costs. So I'm going to, I plan to do it. [01:55:07] Speaker B: It's interesting nonetheless. Like I would love to see it implemented even if just for like a beta to see. Okay, how often is this actually a problem for a user? You know, how often does the data get lost or like you know, you have to back up some thing or whatever and. But I also think a lot of those sorts of problems can actually be solved in a, in a more like kind of surface layer thing of just like letting someone like, like making a little blob and then being like just download. You know, like, like just so that like when you're making the transaction just do whatever those important pieces of information are and then just have it pop up. Says save this thing like save this text or save this like thing and then that's it. And they don't really have to know what it is but that just have it like this is transaction hash. Yeah. You know like all the information that you need and they can just search it on their file system if they ever need it again. It's like listen, if you're talking to support be like search for this string and then boom, it comes up. [01:56:12] Speaker A: He actually already does that. [01:56:14] Speaker B: No, no, I know I've, I've used bolts and so they have exactly that. Is that you. Actually I think I might have an example right here. Right like right in front of me because I did this not too long ago and I, I Actually want to say they have like a little download thing, don't they? [01:56:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's optional. [01:56:31] Speaker B: Like rescue key, do not delete JSON. No, yeah, that's exactly what they do. I don't understand. [01:56:38] Speaker A: So you could put the same. The files that you need for papaswaps. It actually makes it more complicated, but not to the user. The user would still just see a backup file. It would just be slightly larger because it now has a channel open and a channel closed transaction in addition to the HTLC that he already has in there. Yeah, you could do it, but. So, yeah, I don't. I don't quite get his objection, but whatever, it's fine. If he doesn't want to work on it, then I'll just, I can just make it. The other thing that I thought would. [01:57:06] Speaker B: Be cool, if he doesn't work on it, I'll just make it. Yeah, you're for somebody who like. I like hire people trying desperately to, to, to get things built. I hate that you can just build so easy. [01:57:21] Speaker A: Well, it's not that easy. I'll just build it. It. It's. Yeah, it's not, it's not that hard. It's not that easy. It just takes me getting interested. [01:57:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:57:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So. So that's. That is one of the things I think. I think that's a really cool idea. [01:57:34] Speaker B: And it also. [01:57:36] Speaker A: So one of the things I have. This surprised me for a long time. It. I guess it's taken off now. It took a really long time for exchanges to adopt the Lightning network. And from almost from the beginning of the Lightning network, I think by year two, we had Submarine swap services and I thought that would be how they would integrate it. Because if you use a submarine swap service like Bolts, you can give your. You can show your users a lightning invoice or let them insert a lightning invoice and your exchange is just doing what it's always done. It's just sending money on the base layer. You're sending it to Bolt's exchange and they're your lightning provider. I thought that was how they were all going to integrate it. But the only like service that ended up using Submarine Swaps for well during those early years was Moon. Moon Wallet came out and made a wallet that was that integrated lightning in this manner. And they wrote their own Sunrise and Swap server to do it, which is cool until fees got really expensive and then Moon sucked for a long time. For a while, for like three months. It sucked because fees were high and they have to do Two transactions whenever they do. Well, not all the time. They also had some things that made it so they reduced the number of transactions they need. But. Yeah, so I, but I always thought exchanges can integrate lightning pretty easily by just using a submarine swap server, except that it, it, it doubles their users fees and they have to pass those fees on to their users. So that's what I thought would be useful for this, for, for this papaswap stuff. You could remake Moon in a way where it's half the cost of the original Moon. It could work for longer before like fees would have to get back into that range and then it would just be more efficient. It would still be expensive if fees are high, but it would be half as expensive as Roan. And that's, that's an improvement. But you could have more wallets that do it that way and you could go back to exchanges and say, now you're not doubling your users fees when you integrate lightning the easy way, which is to use the submarine swap API. So I kind of want to do that. [01:59:31] Speaker B: And then it's just one on chain transaction, whether you're lightning or you're on chaining, like, it's just the same, the same setup. [01:59:40] Speaker A: Right. I want to build that for and then like see if it, See if that goes anywhere. But I guess it's not that big. It's not as big of an issue now because most of the big exchanges do have lightning now, so. [01:59:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:59:52] Speaker A: So they don't need to, they don't need a workaround to add it. They, They've just done it, most of them. [01:59:58] Speaker B: Well, I'm actually going to need to get my son to his nap soon, so this might actually be a good point to, to close it out on. [02:00:06] Speaker A: Well, we talked about the two things, the three things we want to talk about, so. [02:00:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [02:00:10] Speaker A: There we go. [02:00:11] Speaker B: Dude, thank you for coming home. This was good. Good hanging out, man. Always, always. [02:00:15] Speaker A: Guy. [02:00:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Are you going to be a bit blog boom this year? [02:00:18] Speaker A: I don't think so. They. They haven't invited me yet. I would like to go. Hey, if anyone at Bit Block Boom was listening, invite me. I'll be happy. [02:00:24] Speaker B: Super testnet. [02:00:25] Speaker A: Is your name pronounced G or guy? [02:00:27] Speaker B: It's guy. [02:00:28] Speaker A: Okay. [02:00:29] Speaker B: Guy. Just like the word. Yeah. [02:00:31] Speaker A: Well, yeah, but I've seen people pronounce that when it's a name. [02:00:36] Speaker B: Ghee is more common, but some I, I do like, I've heard of people going by guy just because of like, if, if they're, if it's a foreign thing or Whatever. They actually have gone by Guy in the new. [02:00:47] Speaker A: In the U. S. Superman movie. The Green Lantern is Guy Gardner. And his. He goes. It's Guy for him as well. [02:00:54] Speaker B: So nice. That's funny. I did. I haven't. Have you watched the Superman movie? I haven't seen it. [02:00:59] Speaker A: I thought it was good, but not great. It's. It's a good. It's a good film. [02:01:03] Speaker B: The Supermans have been almost recently right. [02:01:07] Speaker A: Before it because of all the hype. They were. They were hyping it up. And I watched the original Superman 1978 version, which is a great movie. [02:01:14] Speaker B: And. [02:01:15] Speaker A: And so it's not. It's definitely not as good as that one, but it is good. It's a good movie. [02:01:19] Speaker B: Well, hell yeah. I might check that out then. Well, dude, thanks for coming on. I got like a bunch of links to do. I think I have most of them, but I'll send you like a message or something if I'm. If I'm trying to find like some of the relevant links. And I've got your. Actually your. You have your M profile. Do you have your. Do you have like a way to get to your GitHub on this or. [02:01:42] Speaker A: No, but I'll just. I'll just send it to. [02:01:44] Speaker B: Yeah, just send it to me. Just send it to me in case I. In case I. [02:01:46] Speaker A: It's in the chat on River. [02:01:48] Speaker B: Perfect. Perfect. All right. I will save all of this so I don't forget it. And sweet. Is there anything else you want to direct people to follow? I guess I have your impub and stuff because I know you're. [02:02:03] Speaker A: I know your stuff on supertestnight.org is my website. [02:02:05] Speaker B: It's where I post my stuff. So there we go. [02:02:07] Speaker A: You can find my socials and my projects there. [02:02:10] Speaker B: Hell yeah, dude. Thanks for coming on, man. All right, this has been a blast. Later, boss. All right, guys, don't forget, I tried to get all of the links that we mentioned. We brought up a whole bunch of stuff in this one, but I tried to get all of them together. I was. I was being thorough, hopefully about copying them down when I. When we were talking about them. So all of those should be down below. If you heard us mention something and specifically if you heard us talk about something and there isn't a link, please let me know. I can add it in just to make all that easy to find for everybody, but pretty much everything should be there. [02:02:50] Speaker A: Just. [02:02:51] Speaker B: Just let me know. A shout out to testnet, by the way, for joining me. It's always. It's always awesome having a conversation with him and it's good to catch up. He's a. He's an awesome dude who builds really cool shit. So also shout out to Leden for making bitcoin backed loans freaking easy. And for Chroma for helping me get my sleep and my energy levels and my hormones right. For HRF for keeping me informed on what the hell is going on with all the monetary and financial news around the world that the legacy media literally avoids like the plague. Check out the Financial Freedom Report. That link is also down below. And then lastly, Pub Key for building tools to fix the legacy media and the centralized permission platforms that we're all stuck in and for giving us back our content. Check all of these out. We got discount codes, links and goodies. These are all tools and services that I'm a big fan of that I've been using for a long time or been following for a long time and that I trust. I wouldn't recommend them otherwise. And you'll find all the details right down in the description of this show. And speaking of light health, I'm going to go get my nightshades and shut all this down. It's kind of past time that I should have switched all the gears on that one. So I am out. I'm gonna close this up. Thank you guys so much for listening and I will catch you guys on the next episode of Bitcoin Audible. And until then, everybody take it easy. Guys. [02:04:41] Speaker A: Sam.