Chat_142 - Ai, Bitcoin and 5th Generation Warfare with Jordan and Average Gary

[00:00:00] Speaker A: There have never been more tools available to the individual than there have been today. And it's like, you know, cryptography is like the thing. It's like if cryptography is like the wheel, like we invented, like the wheel. Okay, cool. We have a wheelbarrow and we have like a cart and stuff like that. Like bitcoin is now like this engine that is enabling these wheels to turn at a rate that a lot of people are sleeping on. [00:00:40] Speaker B: What is up guys? Welcome back to the show. I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about bitcoin than anybody else you know. And we have got a fascinating conversation today with the bitcoin veterans with average Gary and Op Libertas Jordan, both good friends and the the stuff that they did last time we had the vet crew on was around Hurricane Helene and all of the incredible work that they did over there. But this conversation went in all kind of sprawling directions that I didn't really know what we're even going to talk about. I just knew it was going to be fun to get together and talk about some stuff. We actually went down some really fascinating little rabbit holes real quick. I just want to thank Leden for just their service and they have a wonderful tool for people who do not want to their bitcoin and don't want to pay capital gains especially during a bull cycle but they need the money. They want to be able to use the fiat or they want to be able to invest in something, maybe a bitcoin company, maybe mining my house in particular for me and they would rather not sell their Bitcoin at 40,000, at 50,000 and $100,000. LEDN does secure Bitcoin backed loans. They do proof of reserves. They have open books every month. They have survived a bear market and they've gone with boring and and works. This is a really powerful tool to have in your toolkit. Obviously comes with caveats. Nothing is risk free so obviously look into it and make sure it's right for your situation. A shout out to get chroma for helping me get my light health right. It's actually kind of nice working in my red light here at night and wearing my nightshades but getting my circadian rhythm and my hormones has done wonders for my energy levels for being able to go to sleep. It's for those who haven't been down that rabbit hole. I highly recommend it. And 10% discount with code Bitcoin audible. Don't forget to check out synonym. They are building a tech stack for a new decentralized Web. And their proof of concept is the Pub Key app. Pub Key P U B K Y dot app. You can check it out right down in the show notes. If you do nothing else, just go log in with their Pub Key Ring app. It's really nice. And lastly, the HRF who put on the Oslo Freedom Forum. And I'm honored that they support my work. And I absolutely love their newsletter. Unbelievably information dense and right to the point of everything about financial freedom and monetary freedom, the tools and where the politics are encroaching on that all around the world. The Financial Freedom Report, you can find it right down in the show notes. So this conversation actually ended up being a lot more about AI than I thought. And it's kind of probably a good thing simply because I've got a couple of AI episodes for those of you who knew and or listen to AI Unchained. I have quite a bit of AI backlog related content that I've wanted to cover on the show. And this might be a good kind of lead into that just because we ended up talking about it so much, especially kind of the practical things of how we utilize it and what we're. What we've been able to do with it. But then we also just kind of talk about, you know, Jordan and Gary's. We talk about their military background and kind of their perspective and how they came around to Bitcoin and their realization of the war machine, really. And also we get into fifth generation warfare and how what we are doing now, what we're building is not arbitrary. It's not just a toy, it's not just something that we would like to have. It matters fundamentally in how war is actually fought today. Because information warfare is just as powerful as kinetic warfare or maybe even more because the perception of who the good guy is makes all the difference in the long term. And so let's get into it with Chat142AI, Bitcoin and fifth generation warfare with the Bitcoin vets. Welcome to the show, guys. Welcome to the show. Gm. Gm. Good days. How you doing? How you doing? Were y' all both on last time? [00:05:07] Speaker C: No, no, my first time. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Gary. Gary. Have you. Wait, no. Yeah, you have. You've been on the show, Jordan. Did I. [00:05:13] Speaker C: You were on ours. You were on Bitcoin Veteran. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Yeah, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. [00:05:18] Speaker A: This Incest is hard to discern. [00:05:22] Speaker B: Wait, were you. Were you in me? Were you in mine? Or was I in Yours? I don't know. [00:05:26] Speaker A: We've chatted, guy, but I don't think. [00:05:33] Speaker B: Well, welcome. Welcome to Bitcoin Audible. Thank you. Overdue. If we haven't actually done this crew before, I don't know. I feel like we have. [00:05:41] Speaker C: But wait till the end. You might regret this. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Well, I'll go ahead and pre thank you for such a great show that we had. And then when it all goes south, I'll just caveat at the beginning. I'll just be like, this was. This was a terrible idea. Let's start the show. Thank you for the show. This is a wonderful show. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Set up like a reverse. Like, mandatory reverse zap stream, where it's like, you're paying people sats. Like, I'm so sorry. Here's five sats per minute to listen to this shit. [00:06:09] Speaker C: That's hilarious. [00:06:10] Speaker A: That's a great dude. Is that enabled? Actually, like, is. Does podcasting 2.0 enable that? Because I know fountain, you can stream sats like, you earn it. But that's, like, through Fountain. I wonder if there's a way to, like. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Well, technically, that's through Fountain, but that's something that, like, I can do. I've paid for. I had. I don't do it enough just because, like, I don't have a system. But, like, when. When you're getting stream sats to listen to a podcast, a lot of time. That's because, like, I paid for advert. I. I paid to have it, like, prominent in, like, their feed or suggestions or something like that. So I am. I'm paying Fountain some small fee, and then the rest literally goes to the listener. It's kind of like, zapvertising in a way. So it's actually a pretty dope model and I should use it more often. I just kind of forget, you know, I'll think I'll randomly just be like, oh, yeah, I could promote this episode or whatever on Fountain, and then zapper six months later go. I'm like, I should do that again, because I totally did that last. [00:07:07] Speaker C: You should totally do that for this show. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Pay me afterwards. Let me know how many sats I can throw at you to promote this one. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah, we'll do that. [00:07:14] Speaker C: We can collab on that. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Well, first, because I don't think we've ever really gotten into this. Well, actually, you know what? Just. What's up? What's up? How. What's kind of the news? How are yalls situations? What are y' all working on? Give me the lowdown. [00:07:31] Speaker A: I'll Let Jordan go first. I have a long list. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:07:33] Speaker C: Oh, geez. I mean, I'm really. What am I working on? I'm mostly just working on like, family and life right now, which I think, you know, a lot of times we get into these rabbit holes of wanting to do all this stuff to make the world better. Right. Or whatever your. Whatever your niche is. And sometimes I think we lose sight on just, you know, the day to day things that make that are really important, like being. Being in the army. You make a lot of sacrifices for your fam or not for your family. Your family makes a lot of sacrifices for what you're doing. And at. You'll hear it all the time, people be like, hey, you know, get out of it whatever you can. Because they're not. They're not giving you anything back at the end of this. Like, your family's still going to be there at the end, and you got to deal with all. All that. So maybe I've just been a little more like in touch with, hey, if I dive too down, too far down a rabbit hole, like, I'm losing sight of what's really important. [00:08:31] Speaker A: You get 18 summers with your kid. [00:08:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:34] Speaker A: 18 summers. [00:08:36] Speaker B: That's crazy. [00:08:38] Speaker C: The faster it goes by, the faster it speeds up. You know, it's cliche that, you know, the days are long and the years are fast, but like, it's so true. [00:08:46] Speaker B: My. [00:08:47] Speaker C: My daughter's six and I mean, it's just. I can't even believe I'm like, holy crap, you're six. Like, sometimes I look at it and it's been a long time. But then again, I'm like, man, you're in first grade. You're going to be out of high school before I know it. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:01] Speaker C: So, you know, while we go down all these rabbit holes, I would also implore people to, like, stick close to those that you love and that mean a lot to you because however things go down, like, those are the people that are going to be by your side going through whatever the future holds for all of us. So for what it's worth, you know, work on that. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah, no. 100. I've been thinking about that. [00:09:25] Speaker A: I should have went first. I feel like a chump a lot. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Lately just because, dude, those. The stats on, like, you spend 95 of your time with your kid before they leave. Like, as soon as they're like, out of high school, that's like, I thought you got 5% left. You know, like, some of those stats just are. I'm looking at my three Year old son. I'm like, I miss you so much. Like, immediately, like, I can't handle. Handle it. But just thinking about in the context of like, spend time and focus on that is all I can think is like, my kids are my, my impact, you know, like, they are my real legacy in the sense that like I talked about it in guys take actually recently of just like, like, sure, like I'm, I'm sure my show is having an impact on people. People thank me every once in a while and all that stuff. But nobody's going to host this after I'm done with it. You know, like, it'll, it'll live for a couple of years and then it'll be gone and it'll just be a no. [00:10:30] Speaker A: There's some random autist that's going to archive every single bitcoin podcast out there into eternity. [00:10:37] Speaker B: But, but really, like, you know, this, like, what degree of impact does this have in relation to raising kids who have kids? Like, like, take this 200, 300 years down the line of like, did I pass on the right perspective, the right values to my kids such that that could continue? I mean, you do the math on that. And it's shocking how quickly that gets to a million people when you're, when you're looking down the line. Like, that is an, it's an exponential impact. And it's the only thing that like true, like people talks about, oh, we're going to live forever. It's like, no. The only way you actually ever live forever. And the only way it would actually ever be meaningful too, because, you know, we get old and we get stuck in our ways and we won't change, but our kids will, will think about the world the way it was when they were born. Like, it actually is way more meaningful that we live forever through our kids and our descendants than that we're just like, we're stuck here with our thinking and the way we, we're sure the world's gonna. It works this way and this is how everybody's supposed to do it. Like, no, it's actually good to have that cycle. [00:11:49] Speaker C: I think your job as a parent is to kind of help install that base layer operating system that is set on like, principles and morals. But then you've got to let them adjust the code, right, because their times are going to be different. Like, if we live in a bitcoin standard world, like, hey, that's great. But then you're also going to see concentrations of power on a bitcoin standard that you're still going to end up back into that centralization, decentralization, conflict. Two steps forward, one step, tyranny and freedom. Yeah. Like, it's not gonna go away. Like, instill this and then teach. Your, your kids are gonna have to figure out how to adjust for the future that we can't even fathom that they're gonna have to deal with. [00:12:28] Speaker B: It's crazy. [00:12:29] Speaker A: Be peaceful. Not harmless. Be peaceful. I, I always like this one because you can take it like, peaceful to me is like the capacity for violence that is restrained or channeled or controlled. [00:12:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:38] Speaker A: It's not, it's not harmless. You're not. And when you take that at sort of like a physics definition of like, what is violence? Right? It's like this change, like, it doesn't mean, like, violence. I'm going to punch you in the face. Right. You can take it in a different context of your capacity for violence. Right. Or for change in this world is the act of being peaceful. And then to compound that, like the enhancement of that potential change that you have inside of you or that you can affect on your world for the betterment of our kids because they will carry this torch forward for us. Ideally. There have never been more tools available to the individual than there have been today. And it's like cryptography is the thing. If cryptography is the wheel, like, we invented the wheel. Okay, cool. We have a wheelbarrow and we have a cart and stuff like that. Bitcoin is now this engine that is enabling these wheels to turn at a rate that a lot of people are sleeping on. And that's, that's what's gotten me jazzed lately is like, working on that kind of shit. [00:13:47] Speaker B: No, I love the, the idea. I think Jordan Peterson, of course, I think even Nietzsche talks about. There's a bunch of people talk about this, really. But the philosophy of, like, you can only actually be morally good if you have the capacity to do something terrible. You know, like, you're not morally good because you're so weak that you can't hurt anybody. You simply, you're not hurting anybody because you just can't. And like, so, like this, this idea that we. That weakness is somehow some sort of strength or inherent good because you're subject to everybody else around you. No, you can never actually be good. You can never actually know that you're an honest person unless you have the capacity to do something bad. And the Svetsky, which we're in the process of trying to publish it right now, I just keep having problems with audio uploads but the Bushido of bitcoin, he drives that point home so hard and references like a ton of different people of better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war is that it's our obligation to be warriors and then be peaceful, you know, to have and know how to use the sword and to keep it sheathed by choice. And really, really great book. [00:15:06] Speaker A: And then to provide. Right, like the garden, like people sleep on the garden. Part of that analogy. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:10] Speaker A: Like you're a warrior in a garden and what is that garden doing? You're growing, you're cultivating, you're providing for yourself, your family, your community. Right? [00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah. That's awesome. I've been thinking about that book a lot lately. But Gary, what. What have you been working on? You're talking about people need to look at your PR so they know you're not a spook. [00:15:33] Speaker A: I don't have a lot of PRs. No, I mean, there are some things coming, open source things coming that I can't, that will be public eventually. And that's just a tangent on my day job. But we don't need to discuss that because this is not about my day job. The other big initiative has been this bitcoin veteran summit that we kind of mentioned a little bit earlier. But November 10th and 11th, Nashville, Bitcoin Park. It's a two day event. The first day is like the summit. The second day is a range day. Range day and other stuff. Hey, buts up against Nosterville, if I'm not mistaken, or some other. There's something else going on. But yeah, range day is going to be the second day. So you can come out and shoot, but the first day is going to be the summit. And it's a summit in the sense of it's not just like bitcoin veterans, even though it's a reason to get the boys together. But we want the builders, the sovereign individuals, the people that want this capacity to have change, in effect affect change in the world around them. We want to get those people together and collaborate, educate, update people on what we've been doing as an organization, as bitcoin veterans, and discuss how can we amplify this, how can we take this to the next level and go over all the different tools that will enable us to do that and do it in a format that's small and intimate. There's not going to be. It's not going to be huge, like several thousands of people. It's going to be very, very small, high signal. But the biggest Thing. And the last sort of high level topic that we have on the presenters list is actionable advice. Call to action. In the military, it's always great to talk about theory and everything like that, but eventually you have to go out and apply that theory, whether it's in training or an exercise or in the real world. And that is the ultimate goal of the summit, is to bring people together, the best, the brilliant to talk and discuss, but then most importantly, have actionable advice that people can take and go apply. And it's not like immediate effects, right? It's like these are things that you can do day by day, percent by percent and build towards something bigger than yourself and bigger than the things that you've been doing individually. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah, dude, I think people really discount the 1%, the 1% better every day. You know, like just, just make sure that you don't miss a day, that you do something, that you make some sort of a progress or some like the number of things that like, holy God. I guess this how you can probably hear the banging every once in a while in the background here is. We're still working on the damn house. We're still working on the house, but they have siding going up and it actually. Oh my God, it looks gorgeous. I'm so happy. But like, I've been working on this so many of these various projects forever and it's just like, is any of the, like the number of times that I've been like hopeless about it, but it's like, okay, just like just keep doing a thing, just schedule the next thing. Just sit down and like write another block of code. Okay, let's go back and you know, let me, let me try to vibe code, a solution out of this. You know, let me talk to somebody else. Like, just keep pushing and keep pushing. And I finally feel like there are like some things that literally have lingered for like two to three years a couple feet back and then inching forward again. And it's like, I think, I think I'm near some sort of a end or like a major checkpoint or like a step into. Okay, this layer is done now we can start working on this layer. And I'm. I'm gonna have a studio in all of this. You know, I've still never had a studio. I'm sitting in front of a green screen and a storage closet, essentially an extra. Oh yeah, it looks good. It looks good. We did good. We did good. I'll shout out my own background and my designer for putting it all together, but literally I can touch Boxes over here, just big stacks of boxes on the wall. But 1% progress, man. I think. What was the book? Damn it. [00:19:39] Speaker A: Even. Just getting started though. That, that's the, the AI thing. Like the LLM, like the vibe coding thing. Just getting started with it is taking an. Like I had this idea that was sitting in my fanny pack for like months. [00:19:52] Speaker B: That's where I keep all my best ideas. [00:19:53] Speaker A: And it's like written right on this. [00:19:55] Speaker B: Folded up piece of my fanny pack with all my best ideas in it. [00:19:58] Speaker A: With a. Yeah, it's a grocery list. But I like jotted this note down and then I finally got around to like sitting. I was like, oh, like I can, I can have the AI just like shit something out. But it will be a start to this concept, right? It's an idea that I can now at least like get off the ground and set like a foundation for that previously. It's like the daunting task of sitting down and writing all like the boilerplate code and like getting like basic functionality done. The, the whole vibe coding thing. Especially if you get like a template where like somebody else has figured out that like, hey, here's what the AI needs to know, here's the context you need to give it. So I've been working with like, if you do git stacks.dev it's Alex Gleason stuff where it's, it's like pre built templates, Noster apps, but then there's this other one called Purple Stack this guy Franz at made where it's like an Android template and it's like, it's a git repo that you just clone and in it has like the instructions for how to do things in Flutter, right? Which I don't, I don't. I've never done Flutter up until recently. And then I now have a vlog app, it's literally called vlog in Zap Store that is a functioning like vlogging app, right? It like limits you to 30 seconds, it uploads a video, it does the Blossom upload and like publishes it all the Noster and it just like taking that from like in a weekend that like, it was a weekend I was like hanging out with my kids and like working on Treehouse and like finish that stuff up. So like in a weekend, in those rare, you know, five to 10 minutes where I could just sit down and be like, okay, what's, what's going on? Okay, yeah, no, do this now, right? And give it some more instructions, load the newest APK onto the phone and like, go walk away to the rest of my day. It was incredibly powerful just to see an app materialize. Like, it was. I've tried to do a mobile app in the past, and it was like, this was, like, one of my code projects. I had, like, a Dungeons and Dragons character sheet app that I was like. I had it all. Like, it looked beautiful, but then, like, none of the functionality worked. But it looked nice. But it was, like, so much work to get it to just that point. And then it kind of just fell to the wayside as life and. And everything else took over. But now it's like, oh, okay, well, I can go give a Dungeons and Dragons character sheet to the AI and have it, like, shit out something on the other side that looks like it's supposed to look. And that was just super powerful to me. You can take these ideas, and I am a dev. A little technical, but you don't have. [00:22:23] Speaker B: To be. [00:22:25] Speaker A: Vibe web things into existence now. [00:22:28] Speaker B: In fact, it's actually because of Vibe coding that I can make more sense out of code than I've been able to before. It's wild how much you learn, because especially in the context. I'll actually troubleshoot my own stuff when the context gets too big for ChatGPT or Claude or whatever. And so I'll have to go. It's like, why the hell is this not working? And one of my favorite things to do now is console log, you know, and then just be like, line 78 ran. And, you know, and then just like, keep sticking that, like, all these different places in the code so that I could just go look at the console and be like, oh, it stopped right here. And then I go look, and it's like, oh, they. The AI named the stupid thing get files list instead of get file list, and I take out the S and it works, you know? Yeah. [00:23:19] Speaker A: And then you tell the AI. You're absolutely right. [00:23:23] Speaker B: You're absolutely right. I made a mistake. I'm so sorry about that. Let me rewrite your whole app and. But it's just. It's just really interesting because, like, I've now I think about the structure of an app, and I can make sense of things that I used to use but had no idea. Like, I can actually go in and be like, okay, well, this calls to this, and this does this. And. And also, I. I don't. My big problem is just time. You know, it's always just like, how do you find the time to really utilize these tools? But it's also just fun, like, coding, like, trying to do coding back in the day, which I've done multiple times, was so monotonous and so painful because there was never a flow. You know, I was always in the. I don't know enough to actually do anything. It's like being in front of a piano where all. Every key has a math problem on it or something. You can't play, you know, and there's no playing. There's no playing the keyboard, which is what I want to do. It's just like doing. It's like writing out, you know, showing my work just to press a key and. But now you can play. Now I can play code, you know, Like, I can. And. And my goal is troubleshooting. Like, troubleshooting is basically the. The thing that you do with Vibe coding. And I'm a great troubleshooter. Yeah. That's what I've. What I've done professionally for a really long time in a bunch of different contexts is just troubleshoot stuff. It's like, okay, what the hell's wrong? And so that makes it, like, really entertaining, which I wish I had more. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Time to do it, but I analogize it to. Because I do this in my, like, my day job is like, I have, like, at any given point, it's like three to four Vibe coding sessions at one time. And it's like, I have three to four interns that I go check their work one at a time. And it's like, okay, this one is, like, really, really screwing it up. So, like, let me, like, read your code and, like, walk you through. Okay, like, this is the problem here. This is how you want to do it. And it's like, the intern doesn't talk back. It's always on. It doesn't get hungry, doesn't take time off. And all it takes is, you know, the corporate card to just swipe it, and it just keeps going. [00:25:33] Speaker B: What's your, like, workflow? Like, what have you found to be the most successful in tools that you use and how you use them? [00:25:43] Speaker A: So I'm a big Claude fan. I use that almost exclusively, and I use the cli. So, like, I will launch. I'll go into the directory of the code that I want to do. I'll launch Claude. Ideally, like, if I've already been in there, I will just launch it. But if it's like a new project, I will give it a wall of text of, like, I want this app. I want, you know, this framework. Here are two repos that you can go reference. I found that it's very convenient. There's this concept and this is going to be a little technical, but Git sub modules is basically like you can add another git repository to your existing repository. So I'll be like, hey, you know, so I work on mining stuff, right? So I'll be like, hey, go check out stratum-mining/stratum on GitHub and make it a sub module. Never change any of these files, but reference them constantly to see like patterns and data structures and different things like that. And when it kind of like deviates I'll be like, hey, did you remember to like reference it? It's like, oh, you're absolutely right, I should be referencing the stratum reference implementation. [00:26:43] Speaker B: The number of times I'm absolutely right is amazing. [00:26:47] Speaker A: But it's a lot of that. It's like it is the context, it's the shaping this and the crazy thing in the past. So I was a Chinese linguist in the Navy, right? Like that was like my job for 11 years. And what that taught me is going, yeah, spook going through language school, it's like everything's context, right? Like language is context. We are provide like the words coming out of my mouth mean nothing unless you have context around it, right? And so because these large language models operate in much the same way, the more context, the more detail you can give it. It like the better it gives you results. And Claude specifically because it is most people will say it's like the best like coding one. Like you talk to it like an engineer. And I'm like, hey, this SQL light is you know, on a blocking thread on a critical path. We should spawn a non blocking thread to make sure that it finishes. But we need to track the handles to all those threads to make sure that they run to completion and have like a separate and. And then it goes, it does it. And to your point, like the troubleshooting is like I can only type so fast and I'm not like a dev by profession. Like you know, I did 11 years in the Navy and stuff. So it's like a newer career to me. I can't just like shit out a bunch of code really fast, right, Manually, but the AI can. And I'm really good. To your point, I'm really good at troubleshooting, reading logs, reading code like dissecting like the logical flow of the code to understand like what's happening and so just kind of guiding that piece of it and then understanding like high level architectural, like you're making more architectural decisions, right? So it's like, I know That I need a multi process application. Right. I know that for like mining applications you can't block a thread. You need that mining thing to just keep churning over and over and over again or you're going to miss a block. So understanding these higher level engineering principles, you can kind of guide it and understand like, oh hey, this is like caching a thing or like, hey, this is spawning the thread that we're not keeping track of or insert whatever engineering principle you want. And so it's been more of like higher level engineering thoughts that I just convey to the code monkey. [00:28:52] Speaker C: To the code monkey having the lowest IQ amongst the three of us, I'm sure, and not being nearly high enough on the autistic scale to compete with these two. For all of those out there who are listening, who are like, okay, I don't really do the coding thing. It is super important to start learning these LLMs and how they work. And they've been describing it in like this context of coding. But I, I see the future in so many different industries where once people start similar thing, like you start building out a template with whatever LLM you're using and you start figuring out how to work it. Like I could see parallel paralegals having like some template and that's based on, you know, whatever their state, county laws are. And then they can just, they can do the work of like 5 paralegals because they know enough of the background to like check the conformity. [00:29:47] Speaker B: Formatting and shifting things is wild. Like it's so good at stuff like that. Yeah. [00:29:52] Speaker C: Or like unless you're in the audio nuts. You probably didn't hear this, but Gary's really good at convincing other people to like dive down rabbit holes so he can learn about them without having to do the work. Which is basically just using an LLM. [00:30:06] Speaker B: I think, just treating people like LLMs. [00:30:10] Speaker C: Yeah, he basically treated me like an LLM. He downloaded and installed me. He got me using goose by block and using Grok with that. And so that's what I've been toying around with, with a book idea that I've had or like really a book series idea. And you can do the same thing. Like you have this vision of like how you want a scene to be. Well actually you start with like a recipe of, you know, this is the, this is the setting, this is the theme. This is like the kind of linguistics language I want. Here's some sample writing of mine. Reference that. So you kind of get an idea of how I write things and so I can focus on, like, this overarching storyline that might take, like, several books before I ever even start writing individual scenes. Because I can line all this up and then have the LOM churn out a chapter and it's like, yeah, that's pretty close to what I wanted. Hey, tweak this, tweak that. And you start realizing you have to give it the same kind of context of, you know, oh, I see, you're not. You're not describing this thing enough. Because I didn't provide the con. Like, I had the image in my head, but I didn't provide you enough context. So you can do this to write books. You can do it for paralegal work. Like, if you can do it for just planning a family trip. Like, start figuring out what the capabilities and limitations are of these LLMs so you're not left in the dust when everyone else is figuring it out. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and there's a danger there, too, with too much outsourcing, because that's something I've seen recently trending where it's like, people are like, what should I wear today? AI. And the AI is like, you're like, man, let's take it to the next level of cognitive laziness. So it's like the cognitively lazy people, I think, are going to get captured in this panopticon of surveilled AI, but the people that understand the tool for what it is and use it as an amplification of their own cognitive ability. And I think that's been a consistent thesis a lot of people had. It's like, it's not the tool itself, but it's like the people that are going to be intelligent enough, motivated enough, and educated enough. And I don't mean educated in a formal way, but just have that drive and ability to discern bullshit from not. Are going to be able to drive these things well into the future. [00:32:27] Speaker B: That. [00:32:27] Speaker C: That is every new technology, though. Like, even the printing press making books. Like, people were like, oh, my God, people will be able to write anything they want. There might be mis or disinformation. Like, they had those same kind of thoughts back then. Like, oh, my God, our kids aren't going to be able to read and they're going to get left behind and. [00:32:44] Speaker B: Or we same dynamic at a different layer, like at a different scale. You know, it's just the amount of drivel that people will be able to pump out will just make the discerning between the good and the bad will just be that much more valuable. And then at the Exact same time. The good will get so much better because of the sheer amount of stuff that can be tried. You know, a lot of life is just brute forcing. You know, just banging your face up against reality until it's like, doesn't hurt in one place and you're like, oh, hey, hey, this is, let's a take, keep going down this path because my face is less bloody. You know, a lot of people think it's like, oh, just have, you'll have LLMs just like writing stories or writing, you know, doing books for you or whatever. It's like, no, like one of the beautiful things about the LLMs is that it's, it's perfect for ideation. Like one of my favorite things to use it for is especially if I'm like stuck trying to figure something out or if I'm not sure, I will literally ask it, is this an analogy or whatever? That is a context that will be broadly understood and it can actually give me a rough idea of whether or not I'm going in the right direction with my thinking or if I'm talking to a niche within a niche without realizing it and nobody's going to get what the hell I'm talking about. And then when I'll ask it for ideas or whatever, like sometimes it's for. The description of the show is, I'll give it the transcript and I have a built in prompt that I give it, but I specifically ask for five options because I don't want it to just write a description for me. I want to read five options and then I'll find something. I'll find a sentence or two. That's like, that's the thing to, that's the thing to really hone in on here. Or I'll even forget that we talked about something in the show and it will bring it up at one point, one of the things. And I'll be like, ah, that's the right one. And I just edit it. I just make it sound the way I would want it to sound. And it's actually not what the AI produced at all. Yeah. But it let me write what I felt. The description ought to be 10 times faster than sitting down. And just it's happening. It's being able to bounce ideas off of somebody. [00:35:01] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, they give it back to you and you're like, okay, that was okay. But I'm the boss and I get paid to turn this into gold. [00:35:08] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:35:09] Speaker A: I used it recently to FOIA my local county government. Like, and it made a beautiful letter and everything. Like that. And then another antidote was I was down in Virginia beach visiting an old Navy buddy and we sat down and had a chat. He reduced medication that he was on by developing his own cannabis protocol to manage his shit using chat GPT. And he was like, yeah, like I just used the chat GPT. I know they're tracking everything but like now it's going to be part of the future model so like, hopefully it'll help somebody else. But he, he literally like reduced his medicine dosage that they had him on for whatever that was going on. But he used an iterative approach of like, hey, this specific strain of weed, this specific, you know, whatever this time of day, this amount, like so on and so forth. So he, he has now this like this whole pretty dope medical protocol that he developed with ChatGPT for himself using cannabis that he was able to just like track all the progress. And like at first he was like, yeah, I tried like encoding things to make sure it wasn't like. But eventually he was like, yeah, eventually I just had it all out there. Like this is, you know, this is the full protocol. And that, that was mind blowing to me. [00:36:23] Speaker B: That's pretty crazy. That's a clever, that's a kind of a clever way. [00:36:26] Speaker A: He's a sharp guy. [00:36:27] Speaker C: I like that. [00:36:27] Speaker A: It was. [00:36:29] Speaker C: What's amazing is like people are going to keep finding these clever ways to use it, but it also kind of feeds back into the machine, right? So then now the machine and whoever owns that LLM is now kind of learning niche. Like we're doing a bunch of like algorithmic work to like improve the algorithm right for them by thinking of all these niche little things. But it's also kind of for the betterment of things. [00:36:54] Speaker A: You hope, you hope. [00:36:55] Speaker C: Like it's all depends on how people use it, man. [00:36:59] Speaker B: I'll tell you One thing about LLMs that has me there, there are huge concerns, but there are also, I think, reasons to be super optimistic about it. And one is, you know, this, this idea of like this lock in and you know, the more people that use one LLM, the better it's going to get is we've kind of already seen that that's not happening. Like look at the number of options and I use a bunch of them. Like I've, I use deep seek every once in a while for various purposes. And I also just think in the nature, like it is very fundamental of like the economics of nature, like almost like a thermodynamic reality that specialization is more, is just more efficient. Like, like specialization is going to give you better results. And that's why we already have dozens of relatively popular LLMs. And the large generic ones, the more general it is, the actually worse results it's going to give in most different conditions. And ChatGPT isn't actually just a big generalized LLM. It's a giant collection of specialized LLMs now and post. Most people don't realize it's just being abstracted away. And that's really what I think. Like there is a reason humans like evolution designed an intelligence that decided to specialize and create a market instead of just designing better and better and better intelligence in one organism is because the market of trading and specializing is multiple orders of magnitude more energy efficient at producing the results. Like everyone's like chasing this like AGI thing. We already have AGI, it's called society. What the hell can we possibly accomplish individually that society like nobody. You can't build a skyscraper by yourself. Never. Possible like every eye pencil. 100%, a hundred percent. That's a fundamental reality. It's not going to be different when we're making AI and suddenly, suddenly it's going to be one big, you know, red eye AGI that runs everything. It's like, well no, you can defeat that with a hundred small ones that are specialized in talking between each other on how to share resources because it's going to obliterate it in its capacity to, to, to adapt and to produce like positive results per amount of energy. Like, because that's just how nature works. Like evolution doesn't make choices arbitrarily, it makes choices based on this, survives better than this. And it's about adaptability. It's not about just the, it's kind of this like arrogant like self aggrandizement of like intelligence is the peak of all things. It's like, well, we still can't get rid of mosquitoes. You know, like, like we, we've been, we get taken down by bacteria. You know, intelligence isn't the end all, be all of the universe. There's plenty of things less intelligence, less intelligent than quote unquote than us that do a phenomenal process of surviving and succeeding in battling us. You know, we're not that great. I can't, there's not a single person in the world can make a tree. All we can do is take a seed from the tree, put it in the dirt and give it a little water so the tree can make itself. But who the hell, no, you can't make, we can't make Wood. We're not that smart. We're monkeys, you know, like, and like. [00:40:36] Speaker C: The fact that like one of the most like we humans are very self centered so we think like we're like the top of everything. But you like. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:45] Speaker C: Do you know what is like crushing it right now? [00:40:47] Speaker B: We. [00:40:47] Speaker C: It has tricked us into growing it. [00:40:50] Speaker A: That's where my mind went. [00:40:52] Speaker B: The botany of desire probably exists on another planet. [00:40:55] Speaker C: And you know, we've already tried to like seed some other planet that's gonna. Wheat's gonna exist on another planet before we do because we can't land on it without it. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that. The botany of desire is that it's not that it's the theory that it's not that we are so smart that we're controlling all of this stuff. It's that this stuff has tricked us to make to, to spread it a million, to, to grow it infinitely. [00:41:22] Speaker C: Which like I'm fine with. That's cool. Like maybe that was God's design. Is like I just need this thing to help everything else. [00:41:30] Speaker B: You help me. I. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. Like it's 100%. Yeah. [00:41:35] Speaker C: If we're the reason that like we can grow on a, on distant planets, like, that's pretty cool. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Cows will never go extinct. No, because I like steak. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Well, and the, the thing I always, I. I've been exploring a lot lately. I even have. I have a podcast called Motivating the Math. Because the, the math of it. All, right, like it, it. You can almost boil anything down to like a math problem, right? Even like at the atomic level, right. It's all numbers and like relational relationships between different values and principles and. Right. And like cryptography is just like this one silo of these math principles that have like this special relationship that allow us to do all these crazy things. But then like in parallel we have all these other disciplines of understanding our reality and understanding our universe that can be boiled down to like numbers. And so like the language of numbers and math is like this whole other beautiful rabbit hole that is just bonkers. Like there's so much surface area, it's like, okay, cool. Cryptography, that's fine. But like I've talked about like statistics or like physics or like anything any of these other things. We've, we've. We as like a humanity and like the way our monkey brains work is like have boiled most of this stuff down to these fundamental principles in the universe that is like math at the end of it. Like we use numbers to quantify or to Describe things once you get down to a finite level. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Math is the language of the universe. [00:43:01] Speaker C: I was just saying how weird do we want to get? Do we want to go down, like, the transhumanism route? [00:43:05] Speaker B: Remote viewing. [00:43:10] Speaker C: Like, genetically modified humans that can. That have. Can themselves process information like an LLM at speeds like that? [00:43:19] Speaker A: We do that. Like, we. We don't need to genetically modify anything. Yeah, like, we have the inherent capability of doing that. Like, that's what we're doing right now is like, in the background, there's a thread in your brain that is listening to the words coming out of my mouth being translated to electrons sent over this thing we call the Internet and landing in your ears that your brain just turns into. I know what that means. [00:43:39] Speaker C: Think about this, though. Like, I do think we can think of these theories like that, but think about how long it takes you to explain that. You explain something that happened in your head and like, like instantly you understood it, but you had to take the time to talk about it. So is there a way to, like, let's process. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Oh, I thought. [00:43:55] Speaker C: Let me just send my thought to you, and boom, you already know what I thought. And it took. [00:44:00] Speaker B: I don't know. That's a translation problem rather than translation and broadcast problem rather than a. An intelligence problem. Right. [00:44:06] Speaker C: It's not a neural problem. [00:44:08] Speaker B: But in the context of like, like, one of the ways I think about, like, LLMs versus, like, human intelligence is, is. You'll notice in LLMs, the like, like all of the quote unquote rules or like, ideas are specifically emergent in the pattern in. In the connections of the language. So it's not actually learning from the world. It's learning from us speaking about the world, which comes with an astronomical amount of noise. And then the model itself is, for one thing, it's a single model. And humans aren't LLMs. Humans create LLMs. Like we. We develop models in our head. They're just like systems of patterns in our minds for individual things. Like, I have a separate mic when I sit down to play a game. I have no idea how the game plays, but I might have a bunch of models for a game that looks similar or a board that's shaped the same. And so I have this relationship. It's like, okay, we're probably going to be starting here and moving around the board, and if not, if it does something completely different, I have to literally start like a baby. Like, I don't. I have no idea what's going on. And then I slowly develop a model okay, this happens after this and I'm creating a new model in my mind and the next time I sit down, I'm using the model. I don't, I don't think about the game. I play the game well. [00:45:38] Speaker A: And I think model, like you could, you could substitute in the word perspective for model there because again, back to the context thing. It's a different perspective on the, on the way. Like you have a perspective of the room. Like you're literally. You're talking about the boxes you can touch. Right. And in my head I can like I can see the boxes. Right. It's not exactly what it is, but is your perspective of the reality that you're able to communicate out. And that's. That's your model, your perspective. And like the boxes to me are, you know, like yay big and like a certain color. But like the boxes in Jordan's mind were probably different or likely different. It depends. Right. Like were they tote boxes or were they cardboard box. [00:46:13] Speaker C: They were the kind when you get kicked out of your office and you're laid off and you have to put all your. In that. That's what I pictured. [00:46:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:19] Speaker A: So he probably has a lot of tote boxes in his house. Right. Like it's his perspective about reality. [00:46:24] Speaker B: About half of them. [00:46:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:26] Speaker B: There is. There is a miner with a crypto cloak like shroud just kind of sticking out of the middle of the stack here because. Because it's too hot to run it. And then I got a couple of Container store fancy boxes. But most of it's. Most of it's the box that you get fired and you put it in and nailed it. They nailed it. Nailed it. [00:46:48] Speaker C: And what's funny is like, I don't know why I pictured that. I don't have a single. When's the last time I saw a box like that? I think you just did a. But I think we're neurally. Networked. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Probably that. Probably that. That's the most. That's the easiest explanation. [00:47:00] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Actually jumping back the vibe coding and then jumping back to the veteran summit, which I have no idea if that's even related, but it made me think about something. So I'm going to ask. But going to the coding thing. So I actually don't do. I should do the CLI version of Claude so that it's actually like on my machine. But I basically do everything in the chat context like on the website. But Claude 100% use for code. But what I have found, I run into the limit because Claude Just wants to rewrite everything every single time I ask a question and drive me crazy because I run into my. I'm doing the $17 a month, so I run into my limit after about an hour. And so what I found is the easier way to do it is not only do I put in multiple sentences in my prompt every single time to the point that I'm kind of copy pasting them, is it like, don't rewrite the whole thing, just tell me what I need to change and I'll update it myself. But I will go back to Chad GPT to get it to explain what piece is doing what, or to kind of like navigate and help me troubleshoot. And then when I figure out what actually needs to be changed, rather than just iterating a bunch of times with claw code and, and then pasting. Does this work? Nope. Okay, do it again. Nope. Nope. I, I basically walk through it. What's going wrong with my own little, like just logging everything and then getting chat GPT to try to help make sense of it. Because I can literally just drop like context forever. But it's not as good a code. So in the CLI, you, you. [00:48:35] Speaker A: And it depends on the different LLMs or the different agentic tool that you're using. Like Goose has, I think it's. They're called like recipes, but CLAUDE has. If you put a Claude MD file, which is. It's a markdown file, you put a claw MD file into it like Claude, the CLI knows that that's sort of like what it should be referencing consistently. [00:48:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:48:55] Speaker A: And I say it knows that because it doesn't always do it. And you, and again, you'll be, you'll be absolutely right when you point out that it's like deviated from the plan. But you, you can build a document, a markdown document of the things that matter, right? So like the architectural decisions, you can put code snippets in there of like, hey, every time I need to go, like query this database, like, here's a code snippet. That is how you should be doing it. And that I think is like one of the things. And a lot of these repos I was talking about before will provide those things for you by the Goose recipes or the Claude files or whatever, the cursor files to like, what was Gleason's thing again? [00:49:32] Speaker B: Just So I remember. [00:49:33] Speaker A: Git stacks.dev. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Git stacks.dev. i remember to link that my AI will grab this from the transcript and. [00:49:40] Speaker A: Make sure it gets linked there's also Shakespeare. DIY is his like he's working on an in browser vibe coding. So you just go. And it will like change on the fly as you do it. It's all Noster enabled, right. So you don't. That's the other crazy thing is like in the before times you would need an entire backend, right? You needed an aws, you needed an, you know, Azure, whatever it is to like stand up a database or you needed, you needed to all know the piping of it. And now you can just work on the porcelain of it, right? You can just work on the shiny thing that the people see that interact with. [00:50:15] Speaker B: It's the interaction part that you're. [00:50:17] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And because you can outsource NOSTR to the relays for like events and stuff, it allows you to design that interface in the way that you want without worrying about the complexities of the back end. You can make an incredibly polished shiny front end without having to like think about what a database is at all or how to query a database. That can all be provided to you in context. [00:50:40] Speaker B: Having to sell Bitcoin hurts, especially when you are certain it is going to be worth more in the future. But you can actually get access to the fiat without selling it by using a Bitcoin backed loan. Maybe this is for an emergency, maybe this is for an investment that you think will do really well, but it won't beat Bitcoin because it's monetizing. 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This could be a huge benefit to your bitcoin stack and give you optionality in accessing fiat without it being that selling bitcoin is your only option. I've been a very happy customer. Check them out. The link and details are in the description. Using all of this stuff has just been, has just been wild and like, like I said it's fun. It's fun. I've been building a little app. So, so one of my favorite things to do is build like little single purpose apps for my workflow. So I talk about like you know, transcription and subtitle or whatever is. I have a little drag and drop thing that I just dropped my episode on. Like as soon as it's done I'll export it put on my desktop and then I drag and drop the video to it and it gives me a subtitle file and a transcription file and, and I just, you know, I wait for a minute and, and then I have one that does like archiving for my stuff. It will compress, send it to the archive folder, check to make sure the. The com. The archive is accurate and then it will delete the original. So like it's super easy for me to just like drag and drop clear up space while I'm doing other things I can. And, and like I have a bunch of these, I probably have like a dozen, two dozen, something like that of these little things that I do for general day to day stuff. And so it's enough now that like my doc is full of like 4 or 5 like just like one purpose apps. And so I'm making one called Drop Click. I love to name all my stupid apps Scribe Drop and if I have a stupid title for all of them but I'm making one that, that I'm calling Drop Click. That is actually a meta of all of these little things. So that. And like you said, you know, I have a template that I'm doing so that I can actually put it into Claude or whatever and say this is the template. These are all the different elements that I need. And this is how it calls, you know, random functions. Can you write me a script that, you know, turns MOV files into MP4 files and does it at this quality rating or something to optimize it for uploading to web? And then the app itself is just a drop zone and then all of the different individual functions and I just click on which one I want to do or I click on a bunch of them and it will do them in sequence and I can just drag and drop my folder or drag and drop my file, drag and drop anything and it'll iterate or use it as like one item. Like I'm just kind of like pulling all of my single use apps together into a single user app interface and I'm going to still make it so that I can put that on my dock and I can still just drag and drop to the icon and it will automatically pull it up. It's in context and it asks which one do I want to run on it? [00:55:28] Speaker A: And let me be clear, like you're self hosting all this, this is all local on your machine, right? [00:55:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just all. [00:55:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that is an understated like superpower of like the tools for self hosting. These things are hyper robust and only will get more robust because this is. [00:55:47] Speaker B: The worst it will ever be. That's what's wild, you know. Yeah, that's, that's insane. Now what got me back to the veteran summer summit here is what you were talking about, like using tools. Is AI actually a part of this? Like what? Give me the big picture of what you're trying to talk about and is this actually relevant to that in. [00:56:11] Speaker A: Yes and no. I'll give you. We have like eight high level sort of topics that we'll be covering on the summit part of it, like the actual work. So like the first one is like the BV mission. Like what, what are we, what are we doing? The second one is health. [00:56:24] Speaker B: Right? [00:56:24] Speaker A: We have a pretty active health and fitness chat and just like, you know, people exploring like mental health, PTSD treatment with plant medicine and all that kind of stuff. Physical health of like you got people uploading like deadlifting videos and like other dudes like critiquing them and giving them like actual things that they can go Try about the third topic is technology which like AI would fall into. But like the technology is probably the broadest one, right? It's like bitcoin AI holding your own keys, Noster, all these other like free and open source technologies that you can leverage. The fourth is like more of a targeted like hey bv, we are an organization, we're trying to grow. It's like how we are stewarding any funds that we got, right? So like Guy, you're well aware of like the mission we did in western North Carolina and like what we did with those funds, what we hope to do if we can like fundraise more money as an organization. The next thing is fifth generation warfare which is like again its whole other rabbit hole of in the information age there is a war going on for misinformation, disinformation and just the truth which that like the truth is able to be amplified so much greater now alongside all these other deceptions. And just like diving into that, the six is mining because we have found, at least personally is the veteran skill set as it applies to bitcoin mining. And the general energy infrastructure is directly applicable. Beans, bullets and band aids is something you'll hear in the military. It's like logistics, operations, stuff. All that applies to mining operations, right? Like figuring out where the asics come from, how to maintain them, how to feed the people that are running the asics, right? Heat reuse. And a lot of veterans have these sort of blue collar skills of like electricians or diesel mechanics and stuff and those are very, very directly applicable. If you've ever been deployed to a FO and you've had any kind of leadership position at a fob, you could go work at a bitcoin mine right now and you'd fucking crush it. And I've seen this firsthand and if you've run multiple fobs, you could step up and be like a regional manager of multiple sites or of an entire site, right? Like so one of the guys that I work with, not necessarily day to day, but he's a former marine and he runs one of the sites, it's like one of a huge site in Texas and you know, it's like stand up at the beginning of the day, like. And that is very analogous to the military lifestyle of like, hey, we're going to figure out what the beans, bullets and band aids of the day are and go execute. We're going to talk about safety first and foremost. Because if transformer blows up, right, that's a critical life limit. Eyesight Thing. These are all concepts and transferable skills from the veterans to this bitcoin mining and the broader energy infrastructure thing. The seventh is like resilience. And that comes down to our whole talk about being peaceful, having a capacity for change, like weathering the storm and stuff like that. And then lastly is that call that action that I talked about earlier. So those are kind of like the high level topics of that first day. And we're just going to pigeonhole like different panels and speakers within, within those different topics throughout the day. And then in parallel to that. So that's, it's just if you've never been to Bitcoin park, there's two buildings, right? The one is like we'll have like the main stage, we'll call it. And that's where all these panels and talks are going. In the other building and across the rest of the park are going to be just like ad hoc workshops. So you want to do like keys. Okay. We're going to have a seed signer, a cold card, a bitbox, whatever. All these different hardware devices for you to just come play with. We're going to have radio, it's mesh tastics, we're going to have the mining devices. Right. One of our guys, Montani Rick was just throwing together a slim 19 build on a live stream where he's taking a single hashboard of a S19 and attaching like, I don't know what, right, Because I've never done it, but he's creating like a single hashboard mining device that has all these components that you need to put together. Right. So it's like those kinds of hands on applications. We're going to have guns there of course, right? It's Nashville. [01:00:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, of course. That reminds me, I, I, I was going to grab one of the octa axes and I saved, I, I saved the thing. I totally forgot to go back to it. But the, the single board hashing thing is so cool to me. I love like breaking out like old devices and figuring out how to make, make them like insanely efficient, energy efficient and like miniaturizing them. That whole, that whole movement of like the bit A and the, the solo miners and stuff. I love it, it, I love it. And there's a bunch of people who like on, it's like it's never going to make any difference. Like so what? Like you're participating, you're hashing. Like there is never a point in which that is meaningless. Like you are hashing, you know, dope. That's what's up. [01:00:52] Speaker C: Mine's plugged in right over there. I don't know if you can hear the slight humming of it or not. [01:00:56] Speaker A: Probably not. But Jordan, I got him his first bit axe, and he's like, I have WI fi in my truck. And I was like, yeah. He's like, I have a plug. An AC plug in my truck. And I'm like, yeah. He's like, like, I can mine in my truck. And I'm like, yeah. And that was last year, right? Like, that was last year and it. [01:01:14] Speaker C: Was free WI fi too. So I was like, well, I'm just gonna. Like, why not? Like, I'm basically getting something for free. The power is basically free. Like, let's mine while I drive. [01:01:27] Speaker B: So one of the things you brought up there that I really want to dig into. How are we going on time, by the way? Are you all good? [01:01:34] Speaker A: I'm good. [01:01:35] Speaker B: You're good? [01:01:36] Speaker A: Yep. [01:01:36] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Is fifth generation warfare. And. And actually something that I mentioned before the show is I wanted to kind of dig into Yalls military background and how your perspective changed. Like, where were you when you went into the military and where were you kind of when you. Who either explicitly or mentally left it, so to speak? And in that context, I want to. I want to talk about fifth generation warfare and how you think about. Like most people don't think of technology as. As war. You know, they don't think about information as warfare. But it is. There is this. It's like. It's like a higher layer of battle happening for what people think. How narratives, you know, spread through the world and things like nostr. Things like, like pub key and peer to peer tech like heat. And these things, like, these things matter. Like encryption matters. Like, this is a real piece of a real puzzle of what are people allowed to hear and what are people allowed to think. Because. Because if you control what people hear, you can control what they think. Think. And so I want to kind of hear Yalls perspective on this because, like, I don't have a military background. I just. I have a. I have a. I did bit torrent. And you know, I said, you copyright people. That's. My culture is the Pirate Bay. Right. So kind of start from. [01:03:13] Speaker A: There's a lot of veterans that understand torrenting, by the way. [01:03:15] Speaker B: Yes, yes. But start with kind of the military background and then we'll kind of of make our way to the fifth generation warfare. [01:03:26] Speaker C: Yeah. So, like, my kind of background is I grew up. My dad was in the military. He was an officer. And so like we moved I didn't move around like a lot of kids do, but we moved around a little bit. And you know, obviously 9, 11. I think for most people my age is pretty impactful. And really, I mean, even younger people, they just may not realize why it's, that's so impactful. But I was in high school when that happened. And no, like, being around military bases, like, I think just added a little more like, yeah, cool, we're gonna, like, somebody attacked us. Let's go kick their ass. And so like, Afghanistan happens and, and then they're trying to push the Iraq war. And I, like, in my ignorance, you know, I'm just, just gobbling up everything that they're telling us. And I think that's all true. Like, yeah, there's all these connections and like, yeah, we got to go to war. Like, I remember arguing with a professor one time. I'm like, well, the CIA showed us the information and I thought, like, I was really sticking it to him. [01:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:33] Speaker C: And so then I, I, I joined and already, I think by the time I went active, it was 2009, so it was already pretty well aware that like, like the Iraq war was based on lies. Like, we never found any wmd. So I did understand kind of that Then I ended up, I ended up going to Iraq in 2011. And it's pretty peaceful at the time, like, rel. You know, for what Iraq had been previously. And I was just, I was just in the infantry, so I just kind of, I didn't really see a whole lot of Secret Squirrel, top level intel type stuff. [01:05:11] Speaker A: Stuff. [01:05:12] Speaker C: But I understood. I, like, I kind of knew. All right, well, like, we're wrapping this up, but, and this was all. And like, Afghanistan started out as like, the right thing to do, like, go take out these Al Qaeda guys. And then it slowly morphed into this giant war of like, we're like, we basically. Green Berets went into Afghanistan and basically defeated Al Qaeda within months. And then everybody, everybody else just wanted to get their payday. [01:05:40] Speaker B: So here comes the contracts. [01:05:41] Speaker C: We created a bigger war. [01:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:43] Speaker C: So I was kind of in, I'm starting to, like, see that. Like, well, that was a just war, but, like, look what we turned it into. And then that's why a lot of our guys died, is because we turned it into something it didn't need to be. We should have gone in, did what we wanted to do, and got the hell out. And but even at that time, this is like around between 2011 and 2014. I'm thinking like, well, Syria that's where like, that's like a legitimate fight over there. There's these ISIS guys that are chopping people's heads off. Like, we can't just allow that, can we? I went in as an officer and a lot of the other officers that were my peers were kind of like, we see the wars dying down. Like, we were all kind of trying to fight to get a deployment as a young lieutenant to try to like, you got to get over there before these wars end. Yeah, like they were going to. And so a lot of us went Special Forces because we were like, well, they're still like going and taking the fight to these terrorists. And like, that's what we signed up for is to go get these terrorists. So I go that route, I become a Green Beret and I basically, I'm making all the right decisions to try to end up in Syria. And I eventually I kind of, I do. But also around that time period, I'm starting to listen to Scott Horton because just he's, he's talking about all these great anti war things when it comes to like Iraq. And I'm like, yeah, I agree with you. He's absolutely right. And so I already have that in the back of my mind. And then I'm in a position where I really am seeing higher level like intel and having being tasked to go look for intel or drop ordinance on certain sites. And you start seeing the bigger picture with, you know, Scott Horton back here whispering in your ear, you know, and specifically, like I can tell you the moment where things like really changed. Like obviously I was still in, but it was kind of like, yeah, I need to make a quick to change because I'm not doing what's right anymore. You know, we would, we would get intel, we'd have to get two pieces of intel in order to launch a strike. So in theory the idea is like these are two independent pieces of intel that should corroborate this then, right? So supposedly bad guys in this building, we drop a bomb. We're watching it on the feed and you see the round like come through the screen and punch a hole into the building. Normally that's when a big cloud would erupt because the bomb goes off. Well, this bomb was a dud. So you just see it punch a hole in and then kind of nothing for a few seconds. And then you see like 10 or 15 women and children come running out of that building and you're like, man, how many of those times when the bomb went off, we were just like, high five. We got Him. And we had no idea who else was in there. Now, was there a bad guy in there? Probably. But every time we're dropping one of these bombs, we're not just killing the one guy who, you know, picked up a phone call at the wrong time and we intercepted that message, and now we're dropping a bomb on his head. You know, he's surrounded with his family. And this is why we're creating more like, yeah, you. It's the insurgency math. You can kill one, but you just created five to 10 more. [01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:54] Speaker C: And so everything was just kind of clicking with, like, oh, I get it now. All the wars are like, it's not just that one or this one. Like, they're all. And even if it's. Maybe we're there for a right reason, like, maybe ISIS needs to be stopped and like, we side with a bunch of other people that all decide that. Like, maybe. But. [01:09:13] Speaker B: But you won't do that by killing one guy and 20 innocent people. You just, you make ISIS stronger. Like, everything, everything about it is their. Their resistance is convincing as many people as possible that you're the bad guy. And if you kill a bunch of kids, how. How much easier is their argument? You know, how much deeper is their hate? [01:09:36] Speaker C: You can't even say the ends justify the means because the ends weren't even successful. Like, you did all this, and it's like you, you're selling your soul to go accomplish this, but then you don't even accomplish this potentially noble thing, like, because that was never actually the goal. And that's the other thing you start to see, especially when you're in certain levels, you start to see, like, the politics come into play of it, and you see what's being reported on the news, but then what's really happening where you are and you're like, that's. That's not true. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I was about to ask what was the. If you're like, seeing some of, like the real intel and like, what was the chasm and. Or accuracy of like, then seeing the story on the news, like, seeing what people heard, you know? [01:10:22] Speaker C: So I'll give you the biggest. This one's just like broad as daylight, and it should also be a warning to people for false flag operations. So it was. I think I have the dates right. April 14th of 2017, there was a chemical attack in Kan Shikun, which is over in western Syria. And the day it happens, like, all of our guys who are. When I say our guys, like, you know, Syrian warlords that are in Syria, these are the guys we're paying every month to be our partners. They're sending me videos and stuff of the chemical attack, and they're saying it's Assad and blah, blah, blah. Like, okay, like, hey, what do you need? Like, let's help you. Well, I mean, if you were. This was 2017. If you remember, there was all the Russia gate stuff and Trump was, you know, the devil and all this. And like, none of anybody in the media, they didn't have anything good to say about him ever, which is fine. Like, I don't. Don't really give a about that. But then he launches Tomahawk missiles at the Assad regime to, like, get back for this chemical attack. And the media is calling him. You know, this is the most presidential he's ever looked. They're just like, he's. He's amazing. Like, oh, he's finally doing what it is that us in the military industrial complex want him to do. Well then like, like, it's either the next day or maybe two days later. I think it must have been the next day after the Tomahawk strike. I get a phone call and they're like, hey, we need you to, like, you use your assets to go figure out, like, was this chemical attack real? Like, who perpetrated it? And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, we just launched Tomahawk missiles because we said it was the Assad regime. [01:12:08] Speaker B: We're done. We. We already did that. [01:12:09] Speaker C: That's like that one. [01:12:12] Speaker B: Those cards have been played. [01:12:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:14] Speaker A: And. [01:12:15] Speaker C: And so there's not only that aspect. Like, oh, you didn't have any intel. I just assumed like, the agency or some other group non got the information. [01:12:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:26] Speaker C: But then I'm like, why are you calling me to ask for this? And then it dawns on me like, oh, I'm the. I am the closest asset to figure this out. Okay. So at least for DOD wise, like, like, I'm the guy that we got to go figure this out. [01:12:39] Speaker B: Well. [01:12:41] Speaker C: Kind of play it down the road. I don't even piece these together until I'm reading Scott Horton's Enough Already, which is about the whole terror wars. And I'm reading, like, his open source information, just what he's looked into. And I'm like, oh, the chemical agent that we found and discovered sent off to a lab to, like, get tested. Like, this was a precursor of something that we knew the Al Nusra front had, which was basically Al Qaeda, who was also had connections with Saudi Arabia. And it was like, oh, the thing that happened was just a false flag because it made no sense for Putin to do a chemical attack. Because it was right around when Trump was saying, like, we're going to get out of Syria. Why would. Why would or not Putin. Assad. Why would Assad choose that moment in time to make sure the United States military stays in his country? Like, he wouldn't have done it. [01:13:32] Speaker B: That. That was immediately. My thought is there could not have been a dumber political move right at the time for him to chemical attack his own people. Hey, just like. Like what? Like there's actually progress being made. That's like the. That's the dumbest thing. It just makes no sense. There was nothing to gain from it. Like, nothing. [01:13:52] Speaker C: And rulers aren't especially very authoritarian rules. They're not known for just everyone has the perception, but they don't just do something evil or fucked up. Just. Just because arbitrarily. Like there is a. [01:14:05] Speaker B: Because it helps them goal. Yes. Yeah. [01:14:07] Speaker C: They're not going to do something that would negate that for them. They know how to stay on to power. They've been doing it for a while. [01:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah. That's crazy. [01:14:21] Speaker A: I was psyoped by video games. First person shooters, man. Call of Duty in high school. Like, I played SOCOM US Navy Seals on the PlayStation 2. And it was one of the first online. You could chat with the other players and stuff like that. And you just full on freedom and democracy shoved down my throat and all that. And I was a little bit later. I graduated in 08. I enlisted at 17 mainly because I was too lazy to do college stuff. And my buddy introduced me to a Navy recruiter and recruiters are really good at what they do. And like, my girlfriend at the time convinced me to not go in the army of the Marines because she didn't want me to die. So I'm like, okay, I'll go in the Navy. And then so like full, you know, like, hey, freedom and democracy. Like the whole nine yards of the whole propaganda of like getting volunteers to sign up for this war machine landed me. Landed me in the Navy. Turns out I'm colorblind. So I can't do anything that relates to being on a ship or a sub or an aircraft or anything. And so they're like, really? [01:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah, the red, green, red, green. Yeah. Yep. [01:15:25] Speaker A: And so that excludes you from an entire category of jobs in the Navy because you can't be permanent party on a ship or whatever because in an emergency with low light conditions, you need to know like the red wire versus the green Rider. And like, you know, people die if you fuck that up. And so they were like, well, we still have these jobs for you. And it was like, I could have been a yeoman, which is like, admin. Like, I could have been a paper pusher. There was a haltech, which is like, you're welding ships and cleaning out the bilge, which is where all the shit goes. And so I'm like, that sounds like, yeah. Not that they're like, yeah, but you, like, scored really well on your tests and stuff, so we would love to put you into this cryptologic technician program. I'm like, what is that? And the guy's like, I don't know. It's top secret. But here's what I can tell you. I'm like, oh, that's so cool. And they're like, oh, yeah, you can take this language test, too, and if you pass that, we'll make you a linguist. And I was like, okay, what does that mean? They're like, well, I can't tell you. It's all top secret. But we will send you to language schools and you'll learn a language. And I'm like, you know, 18 year old. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. And the kicker was they offering, like, 16 grand bonuses at the time. So it's like, hey, if you qualify for this language school, we'll give you $16,000. And, you know, like, my paychecks at the time were like, 400 bucks. And I'm like, wow, that's incredible. [01:16:35] Speaker C: That's a fortune, right? [01:16:37] Speaker A: And so sign me up. Go through, like, two years of language school. That's. That's just like. It's a complete immersion if you look it up. It's the Defense Language Institute. It's where all the DOD goes to do, like, any of their language stuff, if you're, like, a professional linguist. And so I did that for two years. I picked up Chinese, Mandarin, and then all, like, the Eastern languages, like Mandarin and Korean stuff. Go to Hawaii afterwards. And there's a, you know, a site out there that you go and you work at. And so I did that for four years. During that time, I did an Afghanistan deployment, which was interesting. This was 2012, and very fortunate. Like, never, like, was in combat, saw combat or anything like that. But it definitely gave me, like, a different site, and it gave me the taste for, like, I worked with the special operations guys at the time. And then there was, like, this Navy program I could go into that would be like, oh, you go work with these guys. To, like, provide intel for them and everything. So I got back and I screened for that program, went into that. And that's kind of where the shifting point happened for me, because one of my best friends. Awesome bb and we ended up living together. And like, over, like, bourbon or whatever, he's introducing me to, like, Tom woods. And at the time is this guy, like, Jason Stapleton. He's like a former Marine recon guy or whatever. I had a podcast. I was, like, very motivational. I have no idea what happened to. [01:17:46] Speaker B: Him, like, but I think he's still doing. Doing. I actually did a show with him. [01:17:51] Speaker A: Really? [01:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I listened to Jason Stapleton for a while. He's doing much more, like, self. Yeah, self. Like business and like, sort of promotion sort of stuff these days. But anyway, yeah, sorry. [01:18:04] Speaker A: Early on, though, it was very, like, radical libertarian sort of messaging, and I'm just, like, gobbling this up, learning about the Fed, right? Like, Ron Paul was like, a new concept, but, like, like, my buddy was Ron Paul fan. And so, like, I'm learning what I think and what I understand now to be, like, the true ideals of, like, freedom and liberty and individualism. And then simultaneously, like, the Austrian School of Economics, right, with, like, reading. I think it was called, like, rollback or something like that. It was like Tom Wood's book about the gfc, the great financial crisis and everything. So, like, coming to understand that, like, the Fed is the problem and the money is broken without, like, understanding anything else. And it's funny enough, my friend at the time was also like, hey, Gary, I like this bitcoin crypto thing. Like, go check it out. And this was 1617 timeframe. So it was like, making noise. And a lot of the libertarian circles he was in was making noise about it. And I remember bricking. I had an i3 laptop that I just tactically acquired and I tried to run a bit. I got a bitcoin node started, and then I went to go start, like, an ethereum node on the same machine. And like, the machine just shit the bed. Like, I don't. I don't know what happened. Life happened. I deployed. You know, I was. My. My now wife, I was dating at the time. So, like, other things happened. I remember writing a private key on paper. I never had any bitcoin on it, right? [01:19:25] Speaker B: Like, the actual. The actual key. [01:19:27] Speaker A: Like the actual private key writing out. I've never even done that string of text because it, you know, I'm just. And it was used to this, right? Like, in the job that I did it was a lot of like black box radio stuff. So it's like, okay, I know how to run things. I know I was learning Linux, right? Like, I was learning how to be technically proficient at like operating in this technical realm. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll give this a try. And then it just like pigeonhole, black holed, whatever, fast forward. So I get out at the end of 19, I go into Big Tech. I'm still doing like government work for Big Tech. And then that's when Covet happened, right? And so I'm like in this dark covet hole. Like, just like I, I literally, for the first time in my life, I reached out to talk to like, like I called the VA and I was like, hey, I need to like, talk to somebody. Because like, like I think it might be crazy or I don't know what, right? Like fast forward. It's like, nope, not crazy, just right. And that's when I started tuning back into Dave Smith, right? And so like tune back into Dave Smith's like starting to get like the, the real download on like, what, what the hell's happening in the world? And so I'm, I'm at Big Tech and they're like pushing everything super hard and I'm like, I'm out of here. I'm done. Like, I, I can't do this. I was in the office the entire time, right? Because I was on like a government thing. I had to go into the office to do my job. So I was like, I stayed in the office. There was no like, like return. I was just in the office period with all the mask bullshit and all that other stuff. And I was looking for an exit to go like fully remote, right? Like I was a, a site reliability engineer. I knew how to code. And I'm like, oh, I need to go to like a startup and like get this like fully remote job that everybody else is doing. And again, my best friend, he's like, hey Gary, you should really look into crypto. You should get a job in crypto. And I'm like, oh, okay. And he's like telling me about, he was like staking some shitcoin and like making a killing. And like all. I'm like, dude, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. And so I go and like, I bought like 300 bucks of bitcoin, 300 bucks at eth. And, and I like playing around with it because like, I'm a dev, right? I'm going to do things. And like, I tried to like, do something with Ethereum. Like, smart contract something. And like, it cost me money. Like, the gas or whatever was like super high. I still don't understand how all that works, but I was like, oh, whoa. I like. And he's like, oh, yeah, you need. [01:21:33] Speaker B: To buy secret token for fees that you have to do. My brother went through that to move because I wasn't trying to use. Use Ethereum. He was trying to use, I think it was tether on Ethereum or something because he just needed dollars and he couldn't get it from the country or whatever that he was getting from. And he was like, what in the. What is this psycho nonsense? He ended up having to buy like $50 worth of gas and then you. Because he had no idea, he couldn't tell him how much he was going to need. And then he had like. He only used like $30 of it, and now he's got like 20. What the hell do I do with this? This gas? And then I have to use gas to get. To get it turned back into tether or Ethereum. He's just like, this is the most bonk. This is the most ridiculously convoluted shit I have ever used in my life. I will never touch this again. But anyway, exactly that. [01:22:21] Speaker A: When it was 10%, I sent it to. I remember I had Metamask wallet and I sent it from. I think I was using. I don't remember, Coinbase or something, but I sent it from Coinbase to my Metamask and I lost like 10% of it in like, the gas fee or whatever. I'm like, fuck this, send it back. Lost the other 10% and like, sold it. [01:22:37] Speaker B: And. [01:22:38] Speaker A: And then I'm like, okay, what is this? Like, okay, there's this. That was Ethereum. Like, smart contract. Like, like, look like that's not for me, right? I got like a family at the time. I only had two kids, but, like, still. [01:22:49] Speaker B: How many kids do you have now? [01:22:50] Speaker A: Three. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Three, okay, yeah, yeah, three. [01:22:52] Speaker A: Three wonderful, beautiful girls. But it was like, I had a family. And he was like, oh, yeah, you need like $3,200 worth to, like, do anything meaningful. And I'm like, yeah, no, I. I Wish I had $3,200. Like, I got this nice big tech job, but, like, we're, you know, the wife's not working. I retired her a long time ago, even when I was in the Navy. Best decision of my life. But I didn't have the excess capital that this single dude did to play around with the shitcoins. And so I'm like, okay, what's this bitcoin thing? And boom, Bitcoin core syncing on my node, right? Or my gaming laptop. And I was like, huh, okay. And then I send it to my wallet. I'm like, huh, okay. And I'm starting to interview. I interviewed at Celsius. I applied to Kraken and all these other companies. [01:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:33] Speaker A: I was really glad they ghosted me. And I actually got out of Celsius. I was using them for a while because I gave them an uppercase address. So I had my bitcoin core. I was running the wallet on my Windows gaming laptop. Right. Not anything I would do nowadays, but I gave it an uppercase address. And the funds never land. I'm like. And I'm like, customer support, emails and all this other stuff. And I'm an engineer, right? So let me go look at the spec. And I'm like, oh, per the spec, you should. It's a case insensitive address. Like, this should not matter. I put a lowercase one and it worked. I'm like, oh, what the fuck? And so I was like, oh, oh, if this is not right, like, what else is wrong? [01:24:09] Speaker B: What else is wrong with this platform? Yeah. [01:24:12] Speaker A: So I withdrew everything and I moved. I think at that point I moved on to like Swan or something like that. Yeah, yeah. But like avoided that catastrophe. I think I may have had like 300 sats. [01:24:22] Speaker B: That was lucky. That was. [01:24:24] Speaker A: That was February of the year. They blow up. So that would have been 22. Yeah, 20. [01:24:29] Speaker B: Didn't they blow up in like the early summer? Yeah, it was. [01:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it was months. [01:24:34] Speaker B: Like. Like it was very close. Yeah. [01:24:36] Speaker A: And I still have all the email receipts of me being like, he, this isn't working. This is weird. So I get out of that and I'm learning very quickly the shitcoin lesson that I'm like, oh, wow, okay. And then continuing down the bitcoin rabbit hole of free and open source tech, I come across at the time, I come across Start nine because I was trying to learn Rust as a programming language. My job was like, hey, Russ, we're doing Rust stuff, right? And so I come across the Start nine thing. And I remember too, like some of the first conversations with the Start 9, like their community. I'm like, hey, we should have a Monero node on this thing. Why isn't anybody doing this? Yeah, that's cool. That's fine. If you want to do it, go ahead. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know enough how to do that, so let Me keep playing around, poking around. And that's when I got a job at a startup and fully remote. And so at the same time I'm like, startup laptop, bitcoin node, like losing money to the lightning network, trying to fuck around with that, listening to all the spaces, reading all the macro stuff, becoming orange pilled, you know. At the same time, my dad had a heart attack. So I'm in the hospital at his bedside. He's still alive, he's just not. He is dead for like 28 minutes. Like he flatlined for 28 minutes. And so he's still alive to this day. Pretty wild. [01:25:48] Speaker B: Wow. [01:25:49] Speaker A: Yeah, hearty jeans, I guess. But I was reading the bitcoin standard. Like I'd gotten it. And so like now I have time because I'm like sitting in this hospital waiting for my dad, for them to tell me my dad's dead and just downloading the bitcoin standard and digesting this whole thing. I'm like, with the economics, the Tom woods and the Fed libertarian, Austrian economics background, I'm like, oh. And so I've got this engineering that I've been leveling up on and ramping up on I'd been doing for a couple years. I had the economics and the libertarian and the true ideals of sovereignty and liberty. Like true liberty. And so when it hit, it hit hard. Like a ton of Brooks and my like, oh, this is it. And so when my company laid off 14% at the end of that year, I was one of them because I'm like, work laptop, bitcoin laptop work, you know, bitcoin spaces on Twitter. And so it was like no surprise there ended up having to go back. Like, I had no proof of work on my resume as far as like bitcoin and open source went. And so I landed back at like a defense contractor doing like cyber stuff. I managed this like cyber operations flyaway kit. It was like a thing you could throw in the aircraft overhead bin of an aircraft, but it ran an entire automated setup of a cyber operations platform for like blue or red teams. It was pretty cool. It was like a really cool project. I wish, I hope one day that that company just like open sources, the whole thing. Because all of it was open source. It was like GitLab and like all these open source tools that was just like automatically stood up to create this framework. But at that time they didn't like open source. The contract of employment did not enable me. So I adopted this NIM and I dove into the fediment project. Right. But to your Point of the disillusion. It was like at the time that I was in deploying, I was going overseas to Africa and all these other places. I'm learning about the war machine and the money printer at the same time. And so there's this conflict at the end and I'm like, like, okay, well, I can keep getting what I need out of the military. Like, I can keep leveling up my skills and I try to go into like cyber, like offensive cyber stuff. And they're like, no, no, no, you're going to stay a Chinese lingualist. And I was like, no, I'm not. See you later. Best decision of my life. So they weren't giving me what I wanted out of it anymore. So I just cut ties completely. And then, you know, a year or two later started falling down this like bitcoin rabbit hole of free and open source software and technology that. That is now, now the future. [01:28:21] Speaker C: I do think having that Austrian economics background first just like makes so much difference. And then you learn about bitcoin. There's no, you know, I didn't have to climb Mount Stupid, which, you know, no, no offense to anybody that did, but like, I had that and then 2020 came and I had already knew about bitcoin, but I was like, I just need to pull the trigger on this because like I. This makes sense. And I see what, what the Fiat system's about to do. [01:28:46] Speaker B: Yep. Dude, Dude. There's actually bringing up the whole like the cyber warfare, like, kit kind of thing. It. It reminds me of one of my like 800 ideas that, oh, I would love to do this if there was like a whole another timeline where this is what I could focus on, but this is never actually going to happen. I did buy the URL and make myself think that like it could happen one day, but was. And really what got me thinking about this was the whole trucker protest and stuff because, like, I talked with a lot of people and there's a lot of stuff going on. We're like, okay, how do we, how do we actually get bitcoin to them? And so we were thinking of like, how do you actually do this? Like, I talked with DJ a lot during that time in sessions and a bunch of people who were in Canada and then they were like, oh, we got to do a multi sig and we need to get it out of Canada. Like, we need to spread out jurisdictions and all this stuff. Stuff. So there was a lot of like backdoor back room conversations going on. Like, how do we do this? Like how do we actually get this to them? And it made me think about much more in this whole like 5th generation warfare type concept. And my thinking was that like, we should do, we should run bitcoin war games. We should, we should test out. We should play these scenarios with a literal red team, blue team. And it's like, how do you actually, how do you actually do this? How do we get some bitcoin on the ground in this location or with these, this people and like actually set these things up and do them. Almost like kind of a conference sort of thing that you plan out for some span of months and you literally have you, you, you iterate, you, you war game it. And you say, it's like, okay, this didn't work. This was shut down super easy. And so that when the next trucker convoy thing happens, it's like, okay, what tools do we have at our disposal? Do we actually solve the practical problem or are we just kind of like building a bunch of fun stuff that sounds really fun, but we don't even know how to actually use it when, you know, boots are on the ground. So it was an idea that I hoped one day somebody would take on and to. Digoral is free if anybody wants it. [01:31:04] Speaker A: But we might have people interested in that. [01:31:07] Speaker B: That would be. God, that would be so dope. And I'd love to. Yeah. [01:31:11] Speaker A: So the Nashville conference last year in 2024, we did our bitcoin better in Citadel. And one of the things we wanted to do that we never just materialized was a contingency tabletop. Like, hey, get people, get the miners, the node runners, the cryptographer. Like, get people that know these domains and put it in a form. Because that's. This is what Jordan and his friends learn how to do in military colleges and stuff. You learn how to analyze strategic level situations and understanding each of those key components and having a subject matter expert to tap for that key component in this cross functional environment. Like that's what I did, right? Like the last five years was I was a subject matter expert in a cross functional team, right. I was just one pillar of this like broad spectrum of intelligence that knew enough about all the other aspects to know when I needed them, what questions to ask of them, and then also how to advertise their capabilities to other stakeholders or parties that I'm interacting with. So, like, I wasn't an expert on like human intelligence, right? But I knew, and I know enough about it, I knew enough about it to go talk to commander, insert Commander X in whatever theater that like Even if he didn't need it, I can be like, hey, like, this is what I can bring in my vertical. But, like, there's this other guy too, that if we need it, like, here's the capabilities and the baseline knowledge set that I can broadcast and communicate to you so you can make a better informed decision. And if we need to go tap that guy and get him into theater, that's the game. It's like understanding strategic level assets, resources, and most importantly, technologies, and putting them into practical application by knowing what the implications of those technologies are and deploying those assets with the absolute efficiency and ruthlessness that comes with a military operation. [01:33:01] Speaker B: Hell, yeah. [01:33:01] Speaker C: We have a guy in the chats, and I. I think I'm safe using his name because he has some podcast shows out there with his name, but. Bill Stebbins is a retired lieutenant colonel. He is a graduate of the sams. It's the School for Advanced Military Studies. Graduates of this school are referred to as Jedis because you already have to be like, some of the smartest people to even go and then let alone graduate through this. And he was the one, like, that's what he did, is he ran these, like, war games and saying, like, hey, this is the scenario. Good guys, bad guys go at it. And he would be like, you guys. [01:33:41] Speaker B: Would be perfect for this. [01:33:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, if you. If you think about it and you want some support or help, because the other thing that got me thinking about it was actually one. [01:33:51] Speaker A: You come to the summit. There's no reason. That's not a. [01:33:54] Speaker B: A. [01:33:54] Speaker A: That's a sidebar. Right? Like, this is a. [01:33:56] Speaker B: You said November, right? [01:33:58] Speaker A: November 10th and 11th. [01:33:59] Speaker B: Yep. That's gonna be tough. I told myself no more. I've got one thing scheduled in October, which is small, but I do love the summit, kind of. I've found that, like, my favorite. I mean, it's not that I don't like, you know, being on stage in front of like a couple thousand people or, you know, 400 or 500 people. Like, I do. It's very enjoyable, but. And I love just talking in general. I actually enjoy public speaking thing. But I. I find I love the 40 to 50 people group more than anything like that. That, like, middle ground, like, maybe. Maybe max, like a hundred. Because I'm actually talking to the people, you know, like there's actually, like a reaction. It's not like this big amorphous group. It's actually like. Like I can look and kind of see all of the people and recognize and then we just talk you know, it feels like I'm just talking to a group as opposed to. To giving a presentation to, you know. [01:34:55] Speaker A: Well, you can identify people in the crowd that you're like, exactly, I need to go talk to that guy because he's the mining guy. [01:35:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:35:02] Speaker A: To like follow up. [01:35:03] Speaker B: No, it's a. It's a really solid. There's much higher signal and much more like density of communication with that size group. It's almost like some of the threads, even in the. In the presentation or whatever, can kind of be like a private conversation. Is that like, oh, I'm talking directly to this person right now now? Because, like they're. And they can ask questions and then you can actually sit and talk to all the people afterward, you know, so. But that's my dumbass trying to convince myself to do another thing this year. But I'm not. It's. [01:35:34] Speaker A: Don't worry about it. [01:35:35] Speaker B: It's low down on probability. But that would be. I do, I do love those. That's the thing that I'm doing in Colorado, actually. It's about like maybe 80 people or something like that. [01:35:43] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:35:45] Speaker B: But, dude, I would love to see that come to a reality because that would just be such a. And it also cuts through the noise is really the big thing. Is it like, oh, no can do this. And it's censorship resistant. It's like, okay, well, let's. Let's see, you know, like, what happens when we actually put the, you know, the pedal to the metal. Like. Like we actually, you know, put the tires on the road. Okay. What does this. What does this actually mean in practice? You know, is lightning private? Is this like testing things? You know, like, it's all. It's all great to have a bunch of great rhetoric and talk about how things are, but how do you use it? Are people actually using it in a way that actually matters? And that would be the ultimate. Like, let's. Let's gamify it. You know, let's. Let's put this on the. On the board and, and play. [01:36:34] Speaker A: So you're muted, Jordan. [01:36:38] Speaker C: Give it a litmus test. [01:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But it's so. It's so fascinating. I. I love the whole fifth generation warfare stuff. Not only. Not only out of fascination, but also kind of like a survival instinct thing is because, you know, you're being. You're a victim of it, especially with COVID like how aware it's always been around. [01:37:06] Speaker A: Right. Like information, you know, I posted in the. In the chat here for the recording. It's like There's a Sun Tzu quote from the Art of War. It's like all warfare is based on deception. Hence when we are able to attack, we must seem unable. When we use, when using our forces, we must appear inactive. When we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away. When far away, we must make him believe that we are near. And so like, this is not like a new concept. But with the proliferation of the information age and the rapid ability for information to travel at light speed across the world completely changes that. And again, the Internet was like the start of this thing. And the Internet started as a DARPA project, right? It's fascinating. All these technologies always almost mature in a militarily sense before they get commoditized and broadcast out. But the tools and understanding the tools and putting the tools into practice, it's been fascinating to watch that unfold in the past few years because of the very conservative. And it's crazy too because now with, because also word of mouth, like just going, talking to your neighbor, which a lot of people lost, like they tried to like silo you in your house, that didn't work, right? You go talk to your neighbor and you're like, yeah, like this thing's not adding up. And you're like, yeah, I know, wow, that's crazy. Let's talk about that. With the advent of all these other, like the information channels are no longer controlled and that's what the Internet and cryptography have enabled. And so now you can establish parallel networks, channels, meshes, whatever, you have to disseminate it out, right? So like if something's happening in Argentina, I'm going to go on Nasser and I'm going to tag the one Argentinian nostrils that I know. And even if that dude doesn't know, he's like, oh yeah, you know, this other guy over here has like insights like go follow this guy to figure it out. And you can do that now from all over the world and with all these different, you know, technologies like Pub Key with encrypted messaging, with the LLMs and stuff. Like there's a guy out there that's doing LLM enabled through like WhatsApp and Signal so you can talk to an AI agent riding the cucked rails that are Facebook and Signal, right? Like you can do that, right? Which again is enabling people on the fringes of society where like these countries where WhatsApp is like the way you do business now, you can trickle in this, hey, here's a model, here's an open source model. Here's here's GPT, here's Gro, here's Claude, whatever and you can interface it within your messaging app. And then like to take that a step further, he was talking about how like he's in the sun vibe coding because he's able to just like message with his Claude instance or whatever over signal and like it just works and like you can, you can complete tasks, right? You can write a book from your phone using the AI back at your house that's plugged in via these encrypted messaging platforms. [01:40:02] Speaker B: That's so cool. That's one of the things that, you know, as far as I'm, I'm hopeful about AI just because like I said, I think the economics work out not in the whole AGI takes over everything and they're super intelligence. I just, I just don't think that plays out. I think thermodynamics gets in the way. But in the same sense though, is that it the, the success of Chat GPT or the success of Claude at getting better and better actually makes building our way around it easier. You know, like when I'm vibe coding something that I can produce my like think about how many problems there are in creating a better LLM or in you know, building, building a better weighting system or whatnot and like framework for it that would be a hundred times faster using a massive and very good LLM. You know, like think about how many like literal coding challenges or data formatting and sourcing challenges there are into putting better context into creating an alternative. It's such a perfect example of technology feeding back on itself is that the better these things get, the better it is. Like I can build a nostr thing like you, Gary, you're talking about the same thing as you can vibe code a noster, like publishing stuff to Noster or whatever. Is that, that literally means that somebody like myself who cannot code can build something on a decentralized network, censorship resistant network because of the really smart LLM that makes me not have to worry or be subject to the supposedly scary LLM, right? Like that that capacity to build other things quicker means that we won't be reliant on the thing that somebody else built. And it's just. [01:42:08] Speaker A: Have you played with bitchat? [01:42:10] Speaker B: No, Bitch at Yes, I have it, but I opened it and there was like nothing there. But I did that. I think it was this morning or something. Jack posted somewhere that there's going to be Noster relays so that, so that you can actually now not only can you do Blue. And this is, this was the thing that I was like, why, why is it only Bluetooth? I can't talk. I open this up, I can't talk to anybody. There's nobody in my area on bitch at. And so was building for the edge first. It's building for the edge. It's building for the edge where it's. [01:42:42] Speaker A: Like I. I'm in a subway and I have no connectivity but like, like or on a plane or whatever. And I want to like message this person next like two seats ahead of me. You can do that over Bluetooth. But yeah, it now will behind the scenes. And that's the beauty of it is like the grandma was never going to use WI fi until WI fi came shipped from the ISP because we were able to build these abstraction layers on top of it. And that's like, that's where the unlock comes is like you don't need to understand what the communication protocol is. You just need to know that you can talk to your friends. [01:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, and that building in Noster into that or whatever to bridge it so that I can bring it up and talk to my Noster friends with bitch at. And. And then I have the Bluetooth option as well that the same app could do that. That's always. I was thinking like, well, if you do a Bluetooth thing, have normal Internet, you know, have like a, have like a normal option so I can just use it as a chat because like if Telegram had Bluetooth that would be dope because Telegram would still work when the Internet went out and we could all be using. I could have Telegram with all my friends in my local area. And then when the Internet went out we could still chat and be like hey, what the hell? But it makes sense to also go the opposite direction is prove the Bluetooth first and then walk it back to like Noster or you know, normal Internet usage. [01:44:01] Speaker A: The incredible thing is like this, you know, this device, this phone phone, right? It's capable of so much. And this is something I had a. I was exploring Grok and I just was like, hey, let's talk about like how cucked our chips are. So like the phone, the chip, the radio chip in your phone that does the cellular LTE 5G, all that stuff. That thing is like super robust, hyper robust, like all. There's like miniature antennas in there that do phased array and beam forming, all this other crazy stuff. But the chip, like the physical chip is proprietary and it's gated and so they lock it all down. And I think that Bluetooth, it's probably just open enough to enable that sort of peer to peer mesh that Bitchat uses. But if you think about it like the, your phone goes from you, like even if I'm sitting next to you, it goes from you to the tower black box. [01:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:56] Speaker A: Back to the person sitting next to you. That paradigm, I don't know if that lasts very long. One, it's inefficient and two, it's unnecessary. Right. There's been plenty of ideas of people talking about WI fi meshes where everybody's wifi router will just route itself and stuff like that. But I think we're getting closer and closer to a reality where that comes to fruition, where the stranglehold on the physical technology and infrastructure needed to do this is going to be unleashed in a way that is just going to enable the future where everything's just talking to each other. The 5G spec, I think it's called sidelink, the 5G spec had a peer to peer aspect to it that is not getting a lot of love. I wonder why you think about it. [01:45:43] Speaker B: That's kind of the end game, right? Is that if you just keep extending out the trend like any centralization or any kind of third party, any like intermediary that ends up being between you and sending your message or what you can send. Like the Internet was about getting around that. Right. The Internet was about like, okay, how do you build a network of reliable messaging with unreliable devices where you don't necessarily have one single route or you don't have necessarily have one server that's always going to be online and then it recentralizes around the most reliable servers and the types of communication that you can have only on certain platforms because there's not a protocol for people and likes and you know that sort of stuff. So you have social silos, but then you reiterate on a new protocol and everything is about getting better at routing around damage. Like that's the, that's the whole concept is how do you just, how do you still get a message there? And it makes sense that as the, the devices themselves become more powerful and more capable, smaller and more local locally, that you, you can just build yourself an alternative. And in the, in the era of Vibe coding, a million, 10 million new people can build it who would never have had the capacity to build it or would take 30 years to get the knowledge and skill which they don't have time for because they do other things. And now you really can just, you can kind of brute force Your way to some sort of a solution. It's just fascinating. It's fascinating to see it all feedback on itself. [01:47:18] Speaker A: There's some quote and it's like the net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. I might be misquoting it and I don't know who was. No, I know, but it's in some cypherpunk writing somewhere and we see that real time playing out, right? And bitcoin is just one of the most robust instances of that where censorship, resistance doesn't mean that it's going to be fast, but it means that it will work. [01:47:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm trying to find that quote because I know, I've read it's John Gilmore. [01:47:49] Speaker A: Well, the interesting thing too is the net, right? Like the digital net is just that, it's a digital net. But one of the most important aspects of the bitcoin and broader freedom tech movement is the layer zero. The people of it, right? Like the connections and the relationships that you've built, the reputation that you've built as an individual node in this layer zero network is like, even if bitcoin goes to zero tomorrow because insert whatever fud you want, it's like I can still reach out and touch you guy and like talk to you. [01:48:18] Speaker B: You should touch me. You should reach out and touch me more. [01:48:23] Speaker C: It does, it connects, it connects. Think about all the people you've met, whether it was through like libertarianism, Austrian economics, bitcoin, whatever. Like all those people that you've met that you want to like stay in touch with or learn more from. Like that in and of itself is a network. And that's, that's arguably way more important than even bitcoin because without those people on that network, like if bitcoin existed and the only people using it right now were politicians, I think it'd be a shitty environment. And I don't think people would be excited about a bitcoin standard moving forward if that's who was in control of it at the time. So yeah, I think like this layer zero thing, maybe it's just because I don't really want to learn too much about the technical side, like know you, you dorks. But the layer 0 stuff is more interesting to me anyway. [01:49:16] Speaker B: Well, the layer zero is the fallback, right? It's the like, like nothing is permanent and nothing is certain. It's also amazing how you can use a layer higher up to make another layer more robust. That's one of the things I talk about with the peer to peer stuff, is why noer pub Key and the pair stack, which are the ones that I'm hyper focused on on most recently. Why I think they're so important is because actually solving, routing and finding and communicating with each other on the Internet makes bitcoin, which is a layer below it, which is basically, you know, more base. It actually makes it more secure because bitcoin has a lot of vulnerabilities, because the Internet has vulnerabilities. So just communicate, just solving networking problems and finding our, like, you know, having. Having a space of bitcoiners to talk about and organize and solve problems that can't be, you know, they can't be abused or manipulated on Twitter or like have our connection. So I. Why am I not seeing your posts anymore? I don't know what the hell, what the hell happened to this guy? I hadn't talked. I hadn't seen him in six months. Like, oh, he's still up there. He's just been shadowed band, you know, like that sort of a thing. Just having that so that we can get together for a common purpose and solve problems. I think of bitcoin as one of the most reliable. It's kind of like one of the, the pyramids of our time, right? Is that it is a, a literal monument that I expect to last for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. But part of that is this, that so many people are aligned to it that if anything ever happened, like, we would resolve the problem. Like, like, like, let's say bitcoin died for some reason or halted or was there was a major vulnerability at like, you know, block height, 1,100,000, right? And something critical happened. It's like, well, we can start it back right now there, like we can solve the problem and there are more people than ever who would be like, this is solvable. Like, like we. It's like the experiment of the rats or the mice in the, in the water where you, you probably know this psychological experiment, but that for anybody who doesn't is they put these mice in water in this huge, in this huge thing and it's just deep enough that they can't, they can't. They have to swim. They can't actually touch the bottom. And then for a huge portion for like 500 mice or whatever, they don't put anything in the water and they just swim around. They swim around, they swim around. And then right before there. I think one of the. There are multiple experiments. One of them, they just let them drown. Like, they literally let them die. It's crazy, but they let them swim until they basically gave up. They. They just. They just gave out. No more energy left. And they timed it. How long did it take then? And another one is they put in mice that. There was a. There was a little, like, sandbar underneath, but the water was like milky, so you couldn't see it. And they would swim around, and they would swim around and there'd be this one little spot. It's like, okay, now they can stand up on it and they'd be fine and they can rest. And they take the same groups of mice, mice. And they'd do it again and they'd put the mice that had the island in with. In one. Without the island, there. There's no actual way to. To. There's no. There's no land. And the ones that already experienced the failure basically dropped, like the amount of time that they actually tried by like 80. Like, it was this mass staggering. [01:53:08] Speaker C: They just knew it was over. [01:53:09] Speaker B: They were hopeless. They were hopeless. They were. There was no way out. Like, they knew that this ended in, I'm gonna drown and hopefully this person picks me up out of here. Whereas the ones with the island swam forever. Like, they just swam and they just swam because they were certain, they were hopeful. There is some island somewhere. There is. There is a way for me to stand up and I, I shouldn't give up. I just have to keep going. And there was literally one of them, like, they talked about, like, how crazy experiment was, is the. The ones that were literally hopeless because they were given the example of like, there's no way out, would give up after like 20 minutes. Whereas there were literally ones that lasted for more than a day, like 24, 28 hours, just swimming and swimming and swimming, looking for that island. And I think of even in the worst case scenario in that bitcoin die, guys, is that we're all the mice that were in the vat that had the island and we're not gonna stop. Like, we're gonna swim our asses off. Because there is a way to solve this problem. We've seen, we've tasted the solution and we know that it's. It's doable. And if we can stay organized, we can stay connected. We build things like noster, we build things like pub key and peer to peer tech and bit chat and all of these things. We're going to fix it, we're going to solve it. Maybe it even takes another two generations. Maybe I'm 80 years old. When kind of you. You get to that point that it's like, oh, no, we actually did it. But I have a hundred percent faith that it's there because I stood on the island. You know, like there's, there's always going to be one. So it's, it's so crazy just putting it like how so many of these things change your perspective, change how you think about the world and how much impact that can be coming from a world where you look out and there's so many nihilists, there's so many of the, the, the mice or whatever that, that never felt there was never an island. And how quickly they give up, how quickly you even suggest there's a solution. It's like, that's not possible. That's stupid. Why are you even wasting your time? And it's like, well, why are you wasting your time doing anything other than trying to find a solution? You know, what are you even doing in life if you're not, if you're not trying to fix something? [01:55:23] Speaker C: To play little devil's advocate though. And like obviously like that's a awesome story. But it also kind of makes me understand why. Why some people give up quicker. [01:55:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:55:33] Speaker C: And it's not really any like fault of their own. It's just they never saw a way out and we gotta show them the island. [01:55:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, that's 100%, you know, obligation on us. Prove that the island is there. [01:55:49] Speaker C: You know, give them a reason to keep swimming. [01:55:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we're over I think two hours now. Maybe, maybe Final thoughts, final throw outs. Like what do you guys. And what are you bullish about right now? And let's go with that one. What are you bullish about? And then what do you want to point people to? [01:56:11] Speaker A: I'm bullish about the mining stack. You've got datum, you've got Stratum B2, you've got the 256 foundation doing which is like the amplification of the Bitax project where they have open source hashboards, open source control boards, open source mining stack. You just had Proto announce a big similar effort. Like they redesigned the whole mining. They're giving Bitmain a run for their money. No kidding. [01:56:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:39] Speaker A: Go check the Proto announcement. It's worth the watch. [01:56:41] Speaker B: Okay, I'll check that out. I'll put that link in the notes. Proto just Proto xyz. [01:56:46] Speaker A: I think it's one of Blocks suite of companies. [01:56:51] Speaker B: Oh, it's block, okay. [01:56:52] Speaker A: Yeah, Block's company. But just in general. The people exploring the mining space, the heat punks. Right. The people that are looking at right. [01:57:04] Speaker B: Here. [01:57:06] Speaker A: The heat is not the Problem, it's the product. And when you frame bitcoin mining in that lens, the world of opportunity that opens up to you becomes endless because of just the massive amount of energy we put into heat. Heat for comfort and process. Low grade heat that comes out of these bitcoin miners and the fact that there's now an open source hardware stack with coupled firmware software, pool software that's open source and available, I think we're going to see a continued renaissance in the mining industry and the broader mining freedom tech world that will, we're going to accelerate really fast. [01:57:51] Speaker B: That's dope. No, that's, that's, that's a great one. I didn't even know about Proto, but I'm totally in agreement. Like the whole like I talked about the, the kind of like pleb mining movement, the heat punk stuff is such a good, it's genius and I think it's the only way to actually, to sustain hash power. Below, below. What's the word? Like profitability. [01:58:16] Speaker A: Well here, here's a question for you. Here's a question to consider for yourself when you're mining is who's pricing your hash rate? Right? That is a critical question in my opinion to mining centralization and vnprc, who's a guy triangle bit devs guy. He's been doing a huge amount of Lyft on the project. But we had a working proof of concept where for every mining share you issue to the pool you get an ehash token. So it's a blinded signature token like ecash is, but instead of representing sats or whatever, it's representing your share that you submitted to the mining pool. And what that enables is a marketplace for hash rate. So that way it's not bitmain, it's not amp pool, it's not foundry, it's not ocean even, it's whoever wants to be on the trading end of it, right? So I have this ehash, I have proof of work associated with that ehash that I don't know what it's worth yet because we haven't been paid out by the pool. But if you as a speculator or you as just somebody that wants to subsidize my mining operation, you can buy my ehash at a set price before it's realized. And then once the payout happens, now there's a fixed denomination of SATs. [01:59:31] Speaker B: So like you just trade your ehash and so like I can, I can basically redeem your hash power. [01:59:37] Speaker A: Yeah, dude. And because ecash is just a bearer token, like it's just a piece of data that I can text to you. Yeah, it's an unstoppable market. [01:59:48] Speaker B: That's interesting. [01:59:50] Speaker A: We had a working proof of concept at Bitcoin++ in May and the dev work continues. BMPRC is working on this full time and it's something I've been a little bit involved with, just consulting and offering the mining stratum V2 side of the house. [02:00:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:00:06] Speaker A: But that's probably got me tapped into the most bullish aspect. That coupled with just people getting engaged, people doing the work in their local communities to like raise awareness, be a good member of that community and like be the shining beacon of hope for all those mice that are swimming without any idea that there exists hope. [02:00:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's really cool. That's really cool. [02:00:33] Speaker C: I get to follow that. That's great. Thanks. Got me back, Gary. [02:00:38] Speaker A: I got you good. [02:00:41] Speaker C: I would, I would say what I'm most bullish about is just, I'm bullish on humanity. There's super smart people out there, like you guys and other people working on so many problems. There's a lot of bad in the world that's easy to like focus on and hone in on. But it's such really when you, when you really start to think about and understand about it, like does it need to be put, pushed back against? Absolutely 100%. But it's such a small fraction compared to what most of humanity is doing, which is trying to live good lives, make for a better future. And all the work that I see people doing in like the general freedom space is all just to give people the tools and education and networks and support to help just improve humanity's life in general. And it's not an overnight thing. Like one thing that Bitcoin does is it lowers your time preference. And so you start, I mean, we started this conversation talking about like our kids and 300 years into the future. And like who thinks like that except for people that really care about life and humanity and our society and culture. Like man, if you think, if you're thinking 20 years into the future, your time horizon is your, your time preference is still too high. Like keep lowering it and think about generations from now. And I mean, if bitcoin does what we all think it's going to do, they're going to be laughing at us. Like you, you only thought 300 years in the future, why so bearish? [02:02:19] Speaker A: I mean, and like we're like less than two weeks away from the last all time high, right? As Measured by Cutbucks murder notes. But like, like that's also something to celebrate too. Yeah. You know, like it was 124 murder notes for, for a whole bitcoin not too long ago. And that's really awesome too. [02:02:39] Speaker C: 115 is already a giant dick. [02:02:43] Speaker B: Dude. Thank you guys. How. How do. How did I get to the summit? I don't think I have like a, a link or anything. [02:02:51] Speaker A: HTTPs://.bitcoinveterans.org summit2025 is it on the. Just bitcoinveterans.org bitcoin veterans.org summit2025 if you know how to get a hold of me or any of the other bitcoin veterans. We're pretty prolific on Noster. We run a daily X spaces at 10am Eastern. You're welcome to come join us for that anytime. Like that's you guy or anybody in the audience listening right now. Now covers news of the day. It's like your standard Twitter space and stuff. But it's run by bitcoin veterans and focused on the mission. But that's the best way to get in contact. And bitcoinveterans.org has other ways of contacting us. If you're a veteran, if you're a military veteran, I don't care what military you were in overseas. We got overseas veterans. We got in the US Veterans is the core component there. But if you're a veteran listening to this right now and you haven't reached out to just talk to us, please do. Like we are only growing in numbers and we've got anywhere from a pilots chat to a self custody and privacy chat to a health and fitness chat to. There's like a Tesla owner's chat. We've got like a bitcoin veterans of Christ chat. The topics are myriad, but they're all led by bitcoin veterans. And we really just have two rules. It's no shitcoins and no violence. [02:04:13] Speaker B: Right. [02:04:13] Speaker A: Because this is a, a peaceful revolution. And again, we talked about this. Peaceful does not mean that we have no capacity for violence. It means that we abhor it because we have witnessed it firsthand. And we are not going to stand for it anymore. We are going to stand against it. We will use all the tools at our disposal to ensure that there is a minimum amount of violence required for the free and open prospering of humanity. [02:04:34] Speaker B: Hell yeah. Amen. Amen. Let's. That's. That's perfect. End note. Thank you guys. Man, it's good hanging out Always is. Yeah. [02:04:44] Speaker A: Pleasure is mine. [02:04:45] Speaker C: Thanks for having. [02:04:46] Speaker A: Thank you. [02:04:46] Speaker B: Hell yeah. All right, all right. Don't forget to check out the links that we will have down in the show notes so that you can check out their financial summit with the bitcoin veterans. You can go follow them, I'll have their socials, Noster, Twitter, all that good stuff. And also as there were numerous things that we mentioned, I try to pull all the links that I can from the conversation so that you can actually go check those out in depth because there were a lot of things that we covered and like I said, we'll be covering a number of things on AI. In fact, I'm gonna have a chat episode probably in the not too distant future, maybe in the next week or two, entirely about AI with some people who have a really interesting AI podcast. And I listened to one of the episodes where they were talking about how they saw like the future and kind of like the balance of, of how AI works. And it was just a really, really interesting bit. I saw it on Nostr and I immediately like reached out. I was like, we should actually do a show about this because this is, this is really interesting. So stay tuned for that. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss that one. That should be a fascinating conversation. Don't forget to check out Leden Ledn IO for bitcoin backed loans. And you got some perks down in the show notes with my special link link. Don't forget to check out Get Chroma for your light health. For your red light health. These are my favorites of the nightshades that make sure that I'm not staring at the blue screen all night. But get your circadian rhythm and your hormones right and it will make a bigger difference than you probably think. And you get a 10% discount with code Bitcoin Audible. Check out pubkey App P U B K Y dot app synonym is building a new stack for a decentralized web web and of course the HRF and their Oslo Freedom Forum and their amazing financial freedom report. All of those fantastic links as well as a place to buy bitcoin that I use and trust. A bunch of different things that I get asked quite often. I try to make available right there so that you can easily get to them and they're always easy to find. Thank you so much. Don't forget to share this out. Leave a review out. Every once in a while I'll get like a DM of somebody. You're like, man, this was a really great episode and like that makes me feel really good. But I'll tell you, I'll throw you a thousand sats on nostr and it makes me feel twice as good. If you just post it out. So other people know. That's literally the only way that this show has ever been put out there. I don't really market anything other than my socials, and it's nice. It's word of mouth. So, you know, if you like the show, tweet it out. No st out. And it makes me feel good. I'm glad. I'm glad people appreciate it, what we do. It's a lot of work. So with that, thank you all for listening, and I will catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin. Audible. I am Guy Swan, and until then, everybody, that's my two cents. [02:07:51] Speaker A: Sa.