Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: If people are not ready for bitcoin, just go use USDT as long as you can before dollar hyperinflation and then maybe we see it's like, you know, Noah's Ark. So it's going to rain. We build the ark, we don't have to force people on board.
I mean just wait there and when you feel ready to swim, come ab.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: What is up guys?
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible. I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else. You know, I am in the middle of a lot of other work, running some lines to prepare before we put Sheetrock up and I lose the opportunity.
I am going to be sharing a this is actually a really fun talk too. I had Giacomo Zuko on just kind of a short I think we did 30 minutes or 45 minutes or something like that at the Plan B conference and I was meaning to have him
[00:01:03] Speaker B: on the show anyway. And we didn't really get to talk
[00:01:06] Speaker C: about everything we wanted to talk about, but we did cover a bunch of like really fun stuff.
So I thought I would share it on the feed for anybody who misses a bunch of other talks or events and stuff that I do. And I've actually got another one. This one was really good too, and it might be the next episode depending
[00:01:21] Speaker B: on how long it takes me to
[00:01:22] Speaker C: get all this work done.
But I had Bitcoin Mechanic and Hodl Tarantula on a a panel at the Plan B conference too, and that one was really good. So stay tuned for that. I'll go ahead and publish both of them on the feed.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Don't forget to check out the hrf.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: We got a financial freedom report coming up. There's such a good newsletter and then some really good tech updates, some news around not only around Iran and a bunch of stuff that's going on with the war but but then also freedom tech stuff for new tools and new ways to get around problems, especially in like a country where there is no Internet. So don't forget to check them out at the OSLO Freedom Forum June 1st to 3rd this year and you can get tickets plus the newsletter plus a bunch of other details and other fun things and services that I use and trust in the Bitcoin space right down in the description. And with that let's go ahead and get into today's show. This is my chat with Giacomo Zuko from the Plan B Conference in El Salvador.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Let's get into it.
I like this one better.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Hello everybody.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Yo, what's up guys?
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Thank you. That One guy clapping. Thank you. Yeah. Send your lighting address just for the first. Just for the first one. You are late.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah, you can't. You can't start clapping after you find out. You're gonna get stats.
That's some crap.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: What's up, guys?
[00:02:54] Speaker B: I am Guy Swan.
This is a mini episode of Bitcoin Audible. Apparently I'm the guy who's read more about bitcoin than anybody else you know. This is my good friend Giacomo. Say what's up.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Hello, San Salvador.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: That guy wants some SATs. Is that Jethro? Yeah. What's up?
[00:03:12] Speaker A: You're getting better. You're getting better. By the end of the panel, you will be very fast, very reactive.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Did y' all get. Guys, see Stefan? That man was wearing a suit up here. I bet he is hot.
Oh, okay, guys, welcome. Welcome, Jaco.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: I'm curious, dude.
Literally, we. We talked about doing a show for like a couple of weeks and then we just met randomly.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: Oh, good.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: We'll do it at Plan B.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: What have you been up to? Where's.
[00:03:39] Speaker D: Where's.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Like, literally the algorithm on X does not put anything interesting about Bitcoin in my feed anymore. It's all politics and Trump and election bs. So I'm curious. Literally, give me an update what you've been up to.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: So I'm mostly doing Plan B stuff. Not just the Plan B is not just the conference. The Plan B forum in Lugano, the Plan B forum here in San Salvador. Plan B is also a network of educational initiative. So you can check out Plan B Network and Plan B Academy. We where you have a lot of free courses and a lot of courses in different languages. We support those initiatives like Kubo plus here in San Salvador and known nation PupusaSG. A lot of beautiful education initiative. And also we do other activities, one I'm particularly proud of. You can check it out tomorrow. So at lunchtime, lunch break, you go to the main stage. So tomorrow you skip lunch, you go to the main stage and you can see the premiere of the Cypher Tank. So you know what Shark Tank is. So you know, investors, startupers pitching and investors giving money. You know what cypherpunks are? This is cypherpunk and it's also Shark Tank. It's Cypher Tank. And the idea is that we try.
Yeah. See where I go? I think that for Italian probably it sounds better because for us, Punk Tank is really the same. Probably not really for English speakers, but we're Italian, so we don't care. And the quality of the Format is very, very high. I'm super proud. I'm not used to being involved in professional stuff. Usually what I do is al fast. But this one is very, very good. So you can check out the first episode tomorrow. There were like 850k US dollar for the three better startups and the non profit. Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Wait, wait, wait, wait. So, so tell me. So you're literally doing Cipher. I mean Shark Tank for cypherpunk projects.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: And you go up and you propose and you break down like what you're trying to build and why. And then like you could get what, 850,000.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So we were scared. So the original idea is that let's just do it just like Shark Tank. The only problem is that I know my Bitcoin VCs and I was afraid they would have been shy with the offers. So we said, okay, you can offer on top. But anyway, you will score the projects. And the best scoring project will get 850k from the PlanBC fund and from the Plan B nonprofit foundation for Nonprofit open source projects. So that money was committed to the winners.
More closer to a pitch contest in a way. So let's say it's Shark Tank. Meet Americans Got Talent for bitcoiners. And the result is very entertaining.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Can I get up there? Can I sing?
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Sorry?
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Can I sing if I get up there?
[00:06:37] Speaker A: No, but if you want to sing. And that's another topic tonight on this stage, 9:30pm, there is the Satoshi Rocamoto. So guys, you know. Yeah. Thank you again.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Put some love.
Yeah.
So couldn't even make it.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: You guys know Knut Svansel, right?
Raise your hands. So Knut cannot. Couldn't make it here. He's stuck in Madrid. And you know that we rely on Knut for 80% of the musical entertainment. So without Knut, we need you here. If you can play some instrument, if you can sing, or if you can just do Comic Relief like me, be on this stage at 9:30pm you come on stage, you sing, or you pretend to sing. And you. Or you pretend to play, be here.
[00:07:26] Speaker D: Awesome.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Okay.
I want to get to this bitcoin stuff that Cipher Tank. I didn't understand. When we were kind of chatting, I was like, wait, wait, what?
[00:07:34] Speaker A: Now you get it, right?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: That's such a pretty dope idea. I'm. I'm seriously curious. Is that lunch tomorrow?
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Lunch break? Yeah. Main stage, if you are on.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: I think I'll be on right before that.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: You can also. It will remain on Rumble anyway, so it will remain on Rumble at YouTube. So after the lunch break, if you could not make it to the live premiere, you can just check it on. You just go on cyphertank.org and you can watch it on Rumble. It's super easy.
[00:08:00] Speaker D: Sweet. Sweet.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Okay.
Well, yeah, so I'm curious about. We don't have a whole lot of time, but, but there's been a few different things. One is bitcoin price tanked like the last two days. And I think a lot of people are, there's, there's some people getting disillusioned because I mean what I, what I think is that the four year cycle idea is just over. Like generally when you see a quote unquote trading pattern that's so blatantly obvious and also I think is so relevant to Bitcoin's inflation schedule, which is also less and less relevant now because the inflation schedule is increasingly a teeny tiny percent of the whole volume of everything that happens in bitcoin is that people don't know what's going to happen anymore. And that pattern is just inevitably was going to break down. But I'm curious, what do you think about this era of bitcoin? Like, like how has that changed? And not just, not just in like price, but perspective.
Like kind of the social mentality, like, where is bitcoin right now? And what do you think the piece of the narrative or the tool or the thing? Like, where do you think bitcoin is hunting for that momentum to continue to infiltrate the world, so to speak.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: So first, price wise, I'm not a price guy, I'm not an investor, I'm not a trader. So this is not financial advice. Just stay humble and stack sets. But I will argue that the cycle is not over if you had realistic expectation on what the cycle theory, the cycle model meant in the sense that the cycle model was predicated on two things. One, a psychological tendency for investor cohorts to arrive at different times. So you have this cohort of investors of one kind, like in the very early cycle, it's like libertarians and drug dealers and, and a few other people buying. That creates a hype and then the hype breaks. Then you have a depression in price and then the second time around the first cohort goes back, but now you have a new cohort, which may be retail traders and then you have professional traders and then you have nation states and treasury companies. And each time the cohort that enters is bigger, but you also have diminishing returns in terms of how much bigger it is. Compared to the previous one. And then as you say, there is also the supply shock. So there is a halving cycle, the Ivy cycle. We create a small supply shock that can be priced in, but it can also be the trigger for a new hype cycle because it can just give this kind of signal that will spark the hype. And even that will be smaller, of course, because the halving cycle is becoming less and less influential. So I think we may just accept the fact that the cycle worked perfectly because from the point of view of timing, this cycle was exactly as predicted or predictable. The difference is in amount. Instead of going from 19k to 69k, it went from 69k to 128k, which is. I mean, yeah, I mean it is something like this. But okay, so just now just be ambulance tax for three years and then we will have some fine again. Maybe we go to 170 and we bring it home. But more generally, I think that it's nice to analyze Bitcoin in terms of the Kubler Ross theory of loss elaboration. So, you know, you suffer a loss or trauma and you get denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. And I think that in general, we are very much at the bargaining phase of Bitcoin still, in the sense that the phase in which people were really able to say with a straight face that bitcoin doesn't exist is over. Denial is over. I mean, you may still have like Peter Schiff, hello, Peter, I don't know where you are, but it's basically over. The phase of anger in which people will tell you bitcoin will be stopped by nation states because it's bad. The terrorists, pedophiles. That's also mostly over. I think we're still in the phase in the last.
Is the last sub phase of the bargaining phase in the sense that we had this kind of blockchain bullshit hype, like blockchain without bitcoin. Then we had the crypto hype, crypto without bitcoin. Now we have Bitcoin, but in both its main use cases is being diluted by this kind of compromise use case. For example, store of value proposition is being mostly cannibalized by treasury companies and ETFs. So the financial paper Bitcoin, that's taking care of the store of value narrative. So yeah, you may use Bitcoin for your savings, but let's not do it properly. Just do it through the traditional stock market. Let's do it the old, do the new thing the old way. Just like when in the 90s you have managers using email but asking the secretary to print it because they're not ready to actually read it on screen. And then even if you think about the medium of exchange value proposition. Stablecoins. Stablecoins. I mean I love my people at Tether, they sponsor plan B, but if you think about that, stablecoins are bullshit. No. Well, it's serving a great market, but it's also a case of no.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: What's funny about stablecoins is it's clearly the, the one dominant like actual use case for crypto.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Yes, it's the only crypto. I always say there are only in the, in all the hype cycle of crypto. There are two real use case in the CEO bullshit. One is USDT and the second is Polymarket. I mean Polygon is a shitcoin but Polymarket was a lot of fun to watch. I mean you could go on Polymarket to see actual people betting on stuff. That was a real use case. But the point is that it's still a bargaining example because the idea is creating a new money from scratch will imply volatility. Volatility is scary because it can go up, it can go down. So let's just use the old money on the new Rails. So let's just trust the dollars. I think this is inevitable, is a natural part of the migration to Bitcoin and is going to be fixed by itself by hyperinflation. So yeah, the dollar has a stronger brand recognition than bitcoin still and the dollar is short term more stable than sets. That's true. Long term dollar is going down. But short term you can plan one month for the other in dollars. In Bitcoin if you don't have a buffer. If you, it's hard to plan with your company. You can receive your payment one month and then you are down 80% the next month. That can be problematic. So it's still something that the dollar is still perceived as better in this regard. So let's try to use the dollar until it lasts but then hyperinflation of the dollar will just take care of that. And the only actual antifragile final use case for money is Bitcoin anyway so, so I think it's to some degree it's a very low time preference to just be quiet and wait for this hype to consume itself. If people are not ready for Bitcoin just go use USDT as long as you can before dollar hyperinflation. And then maybe we see it's like, you know, Noah's Ark. So it's going to rain. We build the ark, we don't have to force people on board.
I mean, just wait there and when you feel ready to swim, come aboard, man.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: What's, what's interesting, and I've talked about this on the show a couple of times about, about being able to have access to a crypto dollar for most of the world is to realize that the dollar is still king of a giant pile of crap.
And so if still 60% of the world's value can actually use the dollar over their cross crappier currency, then that's something that then they see that as just like this is just a new technological tool for me to access something that I already have already trust and have already liked better than the currency I have been stuck with for a really long time.
Dollarization of South American countries and a bunch of different things has been common during hyperinflation and stuff of them desperately trying to get, get dollars into and out of the country. I know my brother has family in Iran and we talk about the same thing, is that dollars are actually inflated in value in the country aggressively, not only because their currency is dying, but because dollars are an actually scarce currency inside of Iran because their capital controls are so intense. So dollars literally have the attributes of gold almost because no more dollars get in. It doesn't matter if the government of the US prints 6 trillion, they're not coming in. None of them are coming into Iran. So there's still like, you know, a million dollars in Iran. And if you can get $100 in, that's a big deal because of how bad the capital controls are. So it's just a wild, it's a wild thing to see.
Like the techno technological, I see it as like two major transitions is there's a technological transition that's occurring faster than the monetary transition in kind of like the minds of the people all over the world. Because bitcoin is still difficult, but it's easier to use an old currency with a new tool.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Yes. And there's also the freedom of use angle. So using for example USDT over a shitcoin rail is not entirely free. But compared to traditional stuff like Venmo and PayPal, it is significantly freer. So you can be a no KYC person in any part of Latin America. You just download the software and you receive and send dollar denominated credit. You cannot do that with Venmo because Venmo will require you to be identified in vast parts of Asia, Africa, some parts of Latin America.
So the thing is that identifying you has a cost. If the revenue you produce for the company is, is lower than the cost to identify you, you cannot be identified. And if you cannot be identified, the company will be, will be forced by government to not serve you. Now, with stable coins there is a nice arbitrage because the primary market is entirely regulated. But there is a secondary market which is vastly unregulated, which can give you so many people that can use USDT today cannot use PayPal to the same degree, which is an objective advantage. Of course there is an ethical. Some bitcoiners are struggling with the ethical question of cannot these people go directly to bitcoin? Which is a little bit like, you know, you have a heroin junkie and you give him methadone to basically to try to wear it off. And you can say yeah, but methadone is still not very healthy. Can you not just go straight, like a straight edge immediately? Well, yes, but still it's improving, it's better.
[00:19:17] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure.
So I wanted to get into this actually so, and maybe you actually have some practical stuff. Like I know you, you're very hands on with tools and stuff, but we are in increasingly in a KY every KYC everything world and like the fact that social media is now doing this, this is actually something I'll probably bring up in my talk.
But this, this idea, the whole dead Internet theory is that there's more non people on the Internet than there are people. You know, there's more bots out there. And it's becoming so crazy that like X is such a good example because you now pay for a subscription to the platform to basically not be default shadow banned.
And it's specifically because bots are so hard to deal with. But because of that like increasingly everything's just tied to everything. Like I just got a new iPhone the other day because like my, my charging port was busted and I was like I don't want to get stuck in El Salvador without a phone. And the, the amount of like register your phone number, confirm who you are. Like they just seeing it all in, in the process like back to back to back has just been kind of like eye openening. It's unnerving to say the least because like I just like there's nothing I do on that phone that is not in a database, probably in multiple places. And I'm curious how you think about and attack that problem personally these days.
[00:20:59] Speaker A: Like, like so long term I'm optimistic because KYC is so, so KYC means you take your Name your documents, your current living address, and you put that in a list that gets shared across hundreds of agencies around the world and will be on a black market for phishing attackers and kidnappers basically in a couple of weeks. So doing KYC is very bad, very, very bad for your safety and the safety of your family. And also from the economical point of view, it is literally retarded. Like when we started as a human civilization, we started with barter. Barter means that I need to trust you, or barter or credit. I need to trust you. Like I do something for you. I know who you are, you will do something for me back. This is very good. Inside the family, a trust circle, a group of friends. Maybe it could be good in a small village or tribe because trust can scale to maybe 12 people, 20 people, 30 people, 100 people. But then trust cannot scale over that. Trust doesn't scale. So in order to stop trusting people, we invented money. So you have a restaurant, people will come in, they will have to trust you that you will serve good food, because otherwise they will not eat from you. But you don't have to trust that their credit is good. So you just accept some gold coin, you verify it's actually gold, and so you don't care who those people are. This is commerce, commerce scale because people cannot know their customer. People can use money to stop knowing their customer. And so they can scale up as a commerce, as a civilization. So going back to total knowledge and trust and basically to file everybody and to scan everybody is actually going back to a total unscalable, barbaric, pre civilization phase. So long term scenario, I know this cannot work because people that will do KYC will increasingly put themselves in trouble and they merchants that do KYC will lose the opportunity to scale up because they will be forced to know their customer, which is a totally retarded thing to do. Now in the middle phase, while this system collapses on itself because it's unsustainable, how do you minimize this? And I think that there are many ways to do that. It just requires you to be a little bit low time preference again. So doing KYC on an exchange is easy even it's not super easy, but it's easy.
Doing bitcoin purchase peer to peer, on, I don't know, on Robosats, on Peach, on Bisq, some degree, even hodload is harder. So you may be lazy and not do it, but being outside of this,
[00:23:52] Speaker B: I got to give a shout out. Robosatz is pretty dope. Sorry, Robosats is pretty dope. I only actually kind of, kind of dug into it the last few months or whatnot.
To try out robots is pretty dope.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: It's pretty dope. And it's actually I. That is also good because people will complain. You know, all, all the dark net markets are moving to shitcoins, but. But actually the biggest darknet markets is Roboshots and it's bitcoin only. Well, of course the product line is restricted to only fiat money. So it's the only kind of product which is transmitted. But it's a black. It's actually dark net market. Pretty dope. Very good ux. The only but still is not cost free because for example, I may have, well, let's say my cousin using Robosats may have had his wife's Revolut account nukes because of that. So it's still not risk free. But, but if I have to choose between. So let's sit down and think. One risk is you having your, your Revolut account nuked. The other risk is you being kidnapped or attacked with actual, actual blackmail or fake blackmail. Like a lot of emails saying, I know what you did, I know the color of your car, it's just a bluff, but you still pay because you're scared. So this is worse than having your Fiat account nuked. If you have your Fiat account nuked, okay, just move to El Zonte or move to Lugano and spend Bitcoin and get over it.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Hell yeah.
Dude, I got to tell you, actually that was, that was quite the experience. I did that this past year in Lugano and just being able to go around this totally the first time because I've been on a bitcoin standard for, I don't know, three or four years. And it's always like my solution has always been an intermediary, which is fine.
[00:25:43] Speaker D: It's great.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Like fold is amazing. Like, I love that tool strike. Awesome. Like I've got tons of great tools for it. But going to Lugano with just like my Phoenix wallet and like my Albe Go, which is connected to my start nine, 3,000 miles away and going in and just like ordering food. And then at the end of it, you guys, you guys take bitcoin and
[00:26:06] Speaker A: they're like, oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: And he brings me a QR code and I pay it and it's like, oh, okay. Then I went, I got some ice cream. You guys take bitcoin?
[00:26:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: Here's a QR code, like just in the city, you know, not at a Conference like that was. It was a little bit surreal. It was a little bit like, oh snap. This, this can totally work. This could totally be like what it is, you know.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: And mere after I nuked her revolve. Now that was my cousin. Sorry. After my cousin nuked his wife's revolut account, the wife tried an experiment to leave Bitcoin only for real lugano with everything. And the, the main problem was fuel. There was no fuel, no gas pump. So she, she has to use a bitrafil for that. I mean, still works, but she has to go through bitrefill. And the other problem was health care. Except for ixm, which was paid in bitcoin, normal health care was, was not payable. And then the rent, the rent is not trivial. But we are kind of working about that.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: I was about to say. So plan B network like. So you're working on gas stations now?
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Well, we can pivot to gas stations, but also, you know, there is a great.
Francis Puyot, the creator of Bull Bitcoin also has this company in Canada called Bills, which is great because you just upload your bill, somebody else will come to pay it with Fiat and then you unlock the bitcoin. So that's very cool, right? You upload your bills, you escrow your Bitcoin people will pay the bills and
[00:27:37] Speaker B: get the BNB bill pay.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Right? It's super red works in Canada with bills with a Y by lls and we're trying to do something similar. Lugano. I don't know how soon it will happen, but that's something that is very, very cool.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's a great idea.
I'm curious actually back to something about Bitcoin because you talked about the narrative with medium of exchange and store of value and how store of value has kind of been dominated or overtaken by traditional markets, by ETFs and all of these traditional tools that suddenly you. The way you stay, you put your retirement and you put your money into Bitcoin now is just go buy the paper. Bitcoin that is offered by big institution A, B and C.
Well, what's interesting is that this is actually.
Maybe this isn't the explanation for it, but I find the correlation kind of glaring that this has also led to a lot less on chain activity, a lot smaller UTXO set or active UTXO set is kind of the word.
[00:28:45] Speaker C: The.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: The point.
And you talk about there's. I think there was a tweet I'd see. I did, I did actually have Something of yours come across of the Schrodinger's fee of the fees aren't low enough on the main chain to still just use it in everyday commerce. But they're also not high enough to have a security budget and actually have a backlog and actually raise fees to, to save Bitcoin to secure Bitcoin into the future. So what do you think about that in the context of where and how Bitcoin is being used? Like the Bitcoin network seems to only be used or largely be used for for the fact that it just has the limited 21 million and then payments every time, every time I'm doing payments every time I'm spending something anywhere, it's all lightning. So it's all off chain now. Like it's, that's the dominant way to pay for stuff. So it's interesting that we're, we, we're kind of gone the other direction. I did not expect us ever to be in 2026 still paying one sat per V by to get transactions in. But I do every day. Every day. That's the, you know sometimes I pay three or four just because I'm like I don't want to wait two bucks. You know.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: I think this is a super interesting question because it raises so many different points. The first point is that on chain activity is low in my opinion because store of value use cases are actually increasing and they inherently don't consume a lot of block space because storing value just means get the money, keep it there. Yeah, you can, you can of course you can move it to multi sig but it's, it's by definition low frequency activity which while payments are a value proposition in my opinion is coming is going to come but is weaker and later at least cheteris paribus because we have alternatives for most forms of payments.
One of the reason I'm optimistic about this long term is that first of all if Bitcoin really succeeds as a store of value then it forces you to use it as medium of exchange. So my I, I don't have any bitcoin but my Cousin is using 100% bitcoin allocation. 100% bitcoin location means that he will use Bitcoin preferably as a medium of exchange because it doesn't want to bother itself to just go to change it with for fear first. So if he can spend it, he will spend it. And then the second point is commerce on the Internet cash scales very well in person face to face but doesn't on the Internet. So if you want to pay privately on the Internet for VPNs ESIMs, I mean you will never.
Buying a anonymous esim with credit card is really stupid. So you just use Bitcoin. So that makes sense. Then you use that on light that
[00:31:35] Speaker B: VPN Mulvad I just find switched over to Mulvad. I gotta, I gotta give him salute that. That's a great tool.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: There's also silently. I'm not being silently by mobile teams. So there are a lot of good services.
But then again even if you use it online.
Sorry, even if you use it online or in other commerces, you use it off chain. And that's not just better because fees on chain were very high, but it's also better because of privacy. You can achieve a good privacy in lightning. You cannot achieve a very good privacy on chain. People are sleeping on these people. Because lightning has not been sold as a privacy tool initially. But even now there is a super testnet you can follow super testnet triggering Monero Bros on Twitter because it will say okay, do a Monero transaction. I will do a lightning one. Now you tell me how much you can say about my transaction. We'll do the same. And of course he can say more about the transaction graph even if there is ring signatures and amount are hidden. Of course he's cheating a little bit because he's using this kind of proxy services for invoices. But potentially speaking lighting is way more private and also is more censorship resistant than on chain. If miners are going to stop start censoring blocks off chain economy can actually go on for a while before even needing an on chain settlement. And miners cannot do shit about off chain transactions. So I think that even in this case we just have to.
The fee dynamics just shows up. That rushing to increase the block size because there was an urgency was a very bad kind of bad kind of methodology. So we should never change bitcoin because of some kind of urgency. Bitcoin is fine. Let's. Let's look at the big picture after a few years. That's the same for low time preference.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: Right?
[00:33:26] Speaker A: Low time preference again.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: Patience.
Well, dude. Dude, thank you. What are you going to be? You have a thing tomorrow?
[00:33:33] Speaker A: Yeah, there is a lot of stuff. So again tonight here I'm going to have a few panels on main stage and P2P stage right now. Then back here for Rockamoto 9:30 tomorrow. I'm also doing a bunch of panels and then a lunch break. Come to the main stage to see the Cypher Tank premiere. Thank you.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: Hell yeah. Thank you guys.
[00:33:53] Speaker A: Give it up for Giacomo. Thank you Foreign
[00:33:57] Speaker D: don't forget to follow Giacomo and myself on the Socials and Noster. Also, if you have any questions that you want me to shoot toward him because we might again we might have him again on the show just because
[00:34:10] Speaker B: there were some things that we didn't
[00:34:12] Speaker D: get to cover and I'll probably be doing like some sort of a guys take follow up episode to some of this stuff to expand on some ideas
[00:34:19] Speaker B: that I wanted to get into.
[00:34:20] Speaker D: And if you had any questions for Giacomo and or for Mechanic and whole Tarantula after we publish that episode, I
[00:34:28] Speaker B: would be happy to shoot it toward
[00:34:29] Speaker D: them or drop it on the roundtable or just save it for the next time I end up having a chat
[00:34:34] Speaker B: with Giacomo and we'll go over it.
[00:34:36] Speaker D: But with that thank you guys. Don't forget to check out the HRF and the Financial Freedom Report as well as tickets for their Oslo Freedom Forum. That'll be on June 1st to 3rd of this year. Tickets are on sale right down in the show notes and our final thought for today is if you are allowing any transaction from one UTXO to any other UTXO that has valid signatures, if you are allowing those through and approving those in a totally objective sense, but when you see a JPEG attached to that transaction, you filter out the jpeg, but they are still allowed to send from the same UTXO to the very same utxo.
Is that censorship of Bitcoin? Just something to think about.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: And with that, that is our two sats and we are out of here.
[00:35:29] Speaker D: Guys.
[00:35:40] Speaker C: Sam.
