Chat_164 - Skating To Where The Puck Will Be with Matt Hill

[00:00:00] Speaker A: We are trying to make it possible for people to use computers. As simple of a statement as it is the broad statement, use computers without intermediaries and custodians. The more they do, the more the lines will diverge, right? Until there's a chasm between the centralized model and the decentralized model with a clear line between them. And we will force either a reconciliation at the. At the natural technical level, let the best product in the market win, or we will force the hand of the authoritarians to say that our model is illegal. And then we have a different reconciliatory. Reconciliatory approach. Right. Which is. Okay. It's revolution time. [00:01:05] Speaker B: What is up, guys? Welcome back to Bitcoin Audible. I am Guy Swan, the guy who has read more about Bitcoin than anybody else. You know, startos 040 is finally here. We have Start Tunnel. We have. The new router has been dropped. Well, the device itself is not ready, but the router has been revealed. And we've seen a post that I wanted to talk about on the show. There's just enormous amount to unpack with what start9 has been up to. I got to see a very demo of a lot of the things in the new START os and I was in and out. I didn't get to watch all of it because I wasn't actually available during that time. But I had to log in and just be able to catch what I could catch. And I'm excited to finally get Matt Hill back on the show to actually pick his brain about the things that I miss. There was so much, so much to get into in this conversation. It literally got scary sometimes. It got really exciting and it also kind of got spicy. So I hope you are ready for this one. We went down, we even went down a tangent for how to determine or how to think about what the purpose of humanity is like. What is the. What is our purpose in an age where any pattern, any model of work or function that we can do can be modeled, can be extrapolated and put into a compression engine, into an AI engine and reproduced. So what then becomes our purpose? How should we think about moving forward in this? And it's not all doom and gloom either. Quite the contrary, all that it necessitates, even with humanoid robots on a short timeline coming very soon in our future. Even with that, it doesn't even necessitate doom and gloom, despite the fact of how scary it might be. It only necessitates massive change. Massive, massive change. But importantly, with great change comes great opportunity. In fact, it is under massive amounts of shifting sands that the greatest opportunities will manifest anywhere. And we dig into all this with Matt Hill. He's always got some fascinating thoughts, and he's always building such cool stuff. I love my start nine, and I cannot wait to actually. I'm literally gonna have to take a day off of work and set it aside to play with all of this and explore it all, because there's just a ton to unpack, and I'm very, very thankful that Matt came on the show and I got to have this conversation with him. So with that, let's go ahead and get into it. This is a bitcoin audible chat skating to where the puck will be with Matt Hill. Welcome, Matt. It's been. It's been quite a bit since we've chatted now on the show, at least, and there's a lot. There is a lot to unpack. And part of. Part of my thinking of, like, oh, I need to get you on the show was that I. I got to join the demo for the new start Os, but I wasn't actually available for that time slot, so I was like, in and out, so I missed, like, 50% of it. So I wanted you to fill in the gaps for me because I'm. I'm super stoked, and I. I literally haven't had time to. To really pay attention to it. Um, in fact, I. I rarely have time to pay attention to I start nine. It's just kind of this. This reliable little thing that stays over there, and it does. It's like two jobs that I needed to do, and it just continues to go. But I have been so stoked because you have the router coming out as well. Or. Or is actually give me the updates because I saw that on. On Twitter, like, day or two ago. Not from us, it wasn't. Yeah, it was. It was somebody else with a. With a picture of it or whatever, and it's like the routers. The routers here or whatever. Solo Satoshi. [00:05:28] Speaker A: That's. [00:05:29] Speaker B: That's exactly who it was. And. But welcome to the show, man. We got a lot to unpack, and it's good to be able to sit down and chat with you, man. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah, you too. It has been a while. We've been busy, you know? [00:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah. You're gonna be a big blog. Boom, right? [00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Sweet. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Sweet bipoc. Boom. And Vegas also got three birthdays this month for the. For the different girls. [00:05:57] Speaker B: Oh, my God, it was busy. [00:05:58] Speaker A: April three in one month. A month of travel and Birthdays, and they're all staggered. It's birthday, travel, birthday, travel, birthday. [00:06:09] Speaker B: That's. That's a. That's a hell of a month. Uh, we're gonna be gone almost all month. Like, literally. I think we'll be. I think I'll be back for two days right in the middle. And then we'll catch, like, the last four days. Like, my. My house is literally gonna be like, we're gonna be so abandoned that I'm. I'm packing up and bringing all my hardware wallets with me. But April is just gonna be something else. Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Fun month. So it's a big month for Start nine. As you mentioned, I. I did a demo the other day. Just a private thing. I'll be doing a lot more public videos and demos here, but I wanted to, you know, give some people a sneak peek that I knew had been waiting for a long time and who had a vested interest in what we've been building. And we're very late with 040. We know that. I know that very acutely, very passionately. Right. I tried not to message timelines along the way, but when you get asked when something, you know every day, every once in a while, you give an opinion. I always qualified it with, like, I don't know. But here's what I think. And it just turns out that I was wildly wrong every single time I said anything at all. So lesson learned. I'll probably never say anything again, but me too. This took twice as long as we thought it would. I thought it was going to take a year to a year and a half, which is a long timeline for a single piece of software, by the way. Right. Like, people are used to software taking weeks, especially now, but operating systems are different. I'm not sure what people think about startos, but it is a massive, massive piece of software. I mean, it's. It's an operating system. Think about Ubuntu or Windows or Mac os. You know, it's not as big as Mac OS or Windows, but it's way bigger than an app. And. And it's lower level too. Right. Touches hardware, touches firmware, has apps on top of it. And so the amount of infrastructure and features and testing that are necessary is just beyond what most people realize. So it was a huge piece of software. The longest I've ever worked on one thing in my whole life, software or otherwise. Took us three years. [00:08:22] Speaker B: Wow. And that's amazing. [00:08:24] Speaker A: And it's done. It's done. So as of Today, we launched Alpha 23. So the 23rd Alpha version of Startos 040. I'm happy to say that Alpha 23 as of yet is bug free. So the last two releases of Alpha have been strictly refinement, you know, like superficial bug fixes. So we're done. All the meaningful bugs are done. All the features have been done for a while now. And as soon as another day or two goes by and no meaningful bugs have been reported, fingers crossed, we will go to public beta where we will publicly encourage people who are on 0351 to update to 040. It'll still technically be beta because I'm sure that when we expand the sample size of testers from a couple dozen to a couple thousand, that we will discover some. Some new bugs. Hopefully we don't get a couple thousand people showing up right out of the gate. I'd prefer a couple hundred so that we can find those bugs and get careful before. Before we go live. Live with it. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:45] Speaker A: How long we remain in public beta is to be determined. It really depends on what the beta testers find. Hopefully they find nothing. Right. Because we did extensive, extensive, prolonged alpha testing. So I'm actually quite confident in the product at this point, but I'm also sure that we'll find something. So not sure how long we'll be in public beta, but it is imminent. It is now. And then also, what took less time than we thought it would was the router, the Start wrt. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:14] Speaker A: This is our fork, an extension of Open wrt. OPEN wrt, for those who don't know, is a fully open source and maximally featureful powerful router operating system. [00:10:31] Speaker B: Is this something that you can basically install on anything that you can install Open WRT on? [00:10:36] Speaker A: Absolutely awesome. OpenWRT itself is open source and all of the additions that we made to it, no alterations, just additions. Right. We built, on top of OpenWRT, we built some really cool abstractions, actually, that make OpenWRT way, way, way, way, way more usable than it otherwise is. That's kind of the whole point. All of those are MIT licensed. So, you know, it's truly fully open source and we're giving it away. We will be selling devices with Start WRT pre installed. These devices are based on RISC V architecture. So as open source as a router can possibly be. [00:11:21] Speaker B: I was about to say, for I did not know what RISC V is, which is like R I, S, C V. Right? Yeah, is the thing, I did not know what this was. So expand that for the audience. [00:11:35] Speaker A: RISC V is a low, low level Computer instruction set similar to X86 or ARM. Right. So it's just an alternative to the mass produced big tech chips produced by intel and you know, AMD predominantly. [00:11:52] Speaker B: So it's essentially an open source chip. [00:11:54] Speaker A: Correct. The instruction set is open source, the board schematics are open source, all the firmware is open source. The only thing that is not open source is the WI FI module and that's only a couple of blobs. So the WI FI card itself is open source, but the broader module that enables it to actually work has a couple closed source blobs on it. That is unavoidable. There is no WI FI module on planet earth for Wi Fi 5 and Wi Fi 6. That is fully, fully open source. [00:12:27] Speaker B: This is kind of crazy. [00:12:28] Speaker A: It doesn't exist. You can't use WI FI fully open source. Hopefully in the future there will exist the ability to do that. Maybe we'll make it. But today it is, it is unavoidable. It's a small price to pay. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Everything. Just, just out of curiosity, do you know of any device like piece of hardware out there that you can run software on that is actually more open source? [00:12:56] Speaker A: No. No. And if, and if you leave the WI FI card out, then it is open source. Right. So you don't need WI FI for a router. You can use ethernet hardline. Probably not going to work for most people. [00:13:09] Speaker B: I ran like 17. I ran with us working in the basement or whatever. I ran. I have ethernet to both of our nightstands so that we can turn off wireless at night and we can just plug in our phones. I'm hardlined the whole house. [00:13:23] Speaker A: I love it. [00:13:23] Speaker B: Good. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Cool. Well, for Start WRT we have a built in feature for WI FI scheduling. It disables the hardware module at specific times. It's a full GUI calendar view. So you just go in and it's like scheduling an event. You can easily drag and drop it to expand the time. So if you want your wifi turned off at night, you just click a button and turns off, turns right back on at another time. The router is pretty insane actually. We, you know, earlier I was saying that Open WRT is this fully open source, maximally featureful, powerful router os. It can do anything. Okay. There's nothing that open WRT can't do. It is the ultimate router operating system. The problem is, is that it's impossible for a normal person to use because it's. You have to be a network engineer. Hashtag true. And you can blow it up too, right? Like if you don't know what you're doing, your Internet will just stop working. Yeah, right. And then you won't know how to fix it. So nobody touches Open WRT because it's too much power, but it is open source and affords all the primitives that somebody would need to do anything with a network stack. So it was the obvious choice for us to build on top of. But similar to what we did with start OS, we just rinsed and repeated that same strategy with OpenWRT, which is take something that is insanely powerful, that affords privacy, security and sovereignty, but is entirely inaccessible to normal people, build abstractions on top of it that make it accessible to normal people without sacrificing anything along the way in terms of privacy, security and sovereignty. And there will. And people will want it. And that's what we did with Start OS. StartOS is an abstraction around Linux, right? StartOS is Linux, right? It builds on Debian. Unlike Start WRT, though, StartOS actually makes significant changes to the underlying systems. Right? StartOS is not just abstractions on top of Debian, it is a entirely different beast. Whereas startwrt is just really simple abstractions on top of openwrt that makes the router very, very usable. So I think, and I did not think this to begin with, we set out to build an open source router operating system that would be easier to use than Open WRT and to have certain features and kind of concepts that would make more sense to people than normal networking devices. But as we went about building it, I got increasingly excited because I began to realize that we, we had a hit here, right? Like, I didn't know that at first. We, we went out to build a router because people were asking us for router advice like which router should I get that, you know, compliments Start OS and gives me privacy and control. And as we vetted routers, we couldn't find anyone that we felt comfortable recommending. So we set out to build one. My goal was just to build one that I felt comfortable recommending. Right? But as we went through it and given how awesome the team is and how high my standards are, and I now am comfortable making the statement that we have the best router in the world, we have the number one router operating system in the world, and it is being shipped on RISC V devices that are as open source as a computer device can, can be. So we are shipping the ultimate open source security privacy router that gives you total control over your network in a way that makes sense and that you can't blow up. I think we have a huge product on our hands here. The router market is massive. Absolutely massive. It's a $20 billion a year market for aftermarket routers. Not the ones you get for. That's huge market. If we make a dent in it, we're going to be a big company. Yeah. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Dude. I'll tell you as someone who has spent the longest time like I've got a big, basically a big, you know, was it 32 port switch essentially. And I go through the pain. As a previous network technician. I, I go through the pain and the, I hate it so much of trying to segment out my devices and creating sub networks and basically isolating things that I want to isolate. As someone who has done the shopping, who has gone through extensively looking for like the number of times I have searched during that process when I, you know what's funny is I basically have my switch and I have my AT and T router. I'm just using the, the standard thing because I'm so effing sick of it all, you know. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:24] Speaker B: And I, I hate, I hate, I hate it so bad. It was, it literally what, what finally got me to be like I'm just going to use the AT and T thing was when I pre ordered your, [00:18:34] Speaker A: the router at, he'd been waiting for it. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Block boom or vague or bitcoin, whatever it was, you know, I don't even remember which conference it was. [00:18:44] Speaker A: 2020. [00:18:44] Speaker B: I've just been like, whatever. I'm going to offload this responsibility to Matt and I'm gonna make him solve my problem. [00:18:53] Speaker A: We solved it. We solved it. You are going to be thrilled with the results. I, I have never been so confident in something I've made. I mean, look, starter S040 is badass too. I don't want to downplay Starter last. It's a huge product that is very, very needed in the world. But this router is a, is a no brainer. No brainer. It, it just crushes everything else in a market that people are actively seeking a solution in and very disappointed with the solutions that exist. Right. Like there's a serious problem in the router world. Nobody can find a good open source privacy router that they can actually use. [00:19:31] Speaker B: They do. [00:19:32] Speaker A: It just doesn't exist. There's no such thing as an open source privacy router that you can actually use. Until now. We made it and it's so much better than I thought it was going to be. It's awesome. [00:19:40] Speaker B: I'm Going to go ahead. I even used it. I've just seen it and I've just seen examples and I'll just go ahead and pump it. Everybody get this. This is. It is. It is a no brainer because. And it's not even, it's not even that I know that like the Start 9 router is like the greatest thing that ever is. It's that its competition is also shit. That there's no way from what I've seen that it could be worse than anything. It's the best because it can't be worse than everything else. [00:20:04] Speaker A: People who know me well, know my standards and they also know my integrity. Hopefully hope that's something I've displayed over the years. [00:20:14] Speaker B: I don't say, dude, I always. [00:20:15] Speaker A: I don't say something's good unless it's really good. I don't care if I made it or somebody else made it. If it's good, I'll say it's good. If it's not good, I will, I will tell you it's not good. This router is awesome. [00:20:24] Speaker B: I will blow some smoke up your ass real quick. Is. I always have a massive amount of respect for you. You, you're one of a handful of people that I know is always going to share your opinion. You're very good about it as well. And you always just been a builder. Every time, every time I talk to you, it's just like, what else is he doing? What else is he trying to make better? And I've never, I don't know, you've. Without just, you know, going off and telling you, you're the greatest. Like, I, I have a lot of respect for you and I'm, I am so stoked about the new stuff that you have. I mean, I don't even know. How long have you been doing this? [00:21:05] Speaker A: Six years. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Six years. Six years. [00:21:09] Speaker A: Well, it depends on what you mean by this, right? Start 9. [00:21:13] Speaker B: The Start 9 building stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:21:15] Speaker A: Start 9 is six years old. Yeah, well, just over six. We started in October of 2019. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Well, it's awesome. It's awesome. And what's funny is that the device that you already have then, the old version of the OS and everything, has been one of my most reliable. Like I tell you that I don't really use it much and that's, that's not true. [00:21:37] Speaker A: It's. [00:21:37] Speaker B: I don't, I don't access it very much because I don't need to. [00:21:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Like I don't manage it, you know, and in fact, I want to find Out. I want to find more ways to have to manage it, to have to play with it. [00:21:51] Speaker A: With 040 you will. I have had a blast last couple of days updating my personal box. Not a test box, the one that I use for my life. Like I aggressively use my own product. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Like Start. Start OS is a cornerstone of my family. Like we use it for everything. And I updated it to 0402 days ago. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Nice. What's the update process that I literally did? Go in, hit an update button. Like what's. [00:22:20] Speaker A: When it goes to full production? Yes. For alpha and beta testing, you flash a USB stick. [00:22:26] Speaker B: As about, say, USB flash. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Okay. Plug it in. Go through the setup wizard. All your data will be retained, it'll be migrated. Depending on how old your device is, it could take a long time because we're actually migrating file systems. So you must make a backup before you update. So there's a couple of rules. Right. We actually have this posted in our docs already. We haven't advertised it yet. But the 040 update is big. It should go smoothly, but it is. It is big and it cannot be interrupted or there will be data corruption. So you must update all of your O351 services to the latest versions of those services. Then you stop them all, then you create a backup, then you do the 040 flash, and all should go smoothly. Once you're up on 040, you install the latest version of all the services, the 040 versions. Every single service on your system will have an update available for it. After you update to 040, you update them all, start them all, make sure they're all running smoothly, happily. Then create an 040 backup. That's the process, the whole thing. Depending on how old your system is and depending on how many services you install that you have installed, will make the process vary anywhere from 20 minutes to five hours. Okay. Really depends on how many. How much data you have on it. Right. All that data has to be migrated and, and updated and moved over. And it can take a while, especially if you're on an older version of Start os. [00:24:02] Speaker B: I only have a ton of data on it. It's like my Lightning node and like a couple of things. And that's, that's really the thing that I, I want to do. I'm. I'm shifting because now that I've got like Pair Drop working and I'm building and working on Pair Sync, which, which is like. It's basically modules that will be inside of paradrive and just on, on a note of like, timing and like people asking you when you're going to be done. I was one month away in September of last year. [00:24:32] Speaker A: There you go. Good. Do you know? [00:24:35] Speaker B: Oh, I know, I know so, so well. I know. And, but I have been, I've really, really wanted to be able to do this with some Start nine because I love, I just love the interface of the os. Like, I, I, I really kind of love that app store plug in my own repository. Like, like just kind of model some, something about that, the, the, the marriage, so to speak, between kind of like the mobile experience and the desktop experience. Especially when the mobile experience always comes with so many walls, you know, Like, I love the way iOS is. I love the way a lot of how a lot of these tools work and kind of the user experience of them, but I completely lose control. Like, I, I'm, I'm constantly being told what I can and can't do and how I can and can't control it. And that's why I'm basically always on a desktop. Because you, you, there's, there's not that, that kind of marriage, so to speak. There's, there's like not a middle ground that's actually mine. And that's why I've been wanting to leverage Start nine a lot more. And I really want to get Pear Drive and like these other tools running on it. So I have this always online just like permanent seed that's like grabbing stuff, delivering it to other devices, et cetera. And it's a perfect, it's the perfect use case for that. Between that and the reliability of my, my Lightning, the, the stuff that I have in my Albi Albi Hub that I have over there is just like that. That was really the thing. As soon as I plugged in Albi Hub, it was like, oh, I don't even need to go over there anymore. It just, I just have my lightning plugged into everything. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Once you update, you'll have reason to click around after updating mine and also both of Start9's production servers. So Start9 runs most of the company on two server peers running 0351. Most of the company, we don't have like subscriptions to software as a company. We do everything ourselves, right? Not everything, because not everything was available or convenient enough to justify our use of it. But after updating both of our servers to 040 and my personal server to O4O, I had a lot to do. The last couple days have been a lot of like installing more things. I've I've decommissioned four VPSs on DigitalOcean in the last couple of days that I and Start9 were using for different purposes and moved them over to our own physical Start nine servers. And I have more to do. Right? So, for instance, BTCPay server. We needed our BTCPay server to be on ClearNet, obviously. And, you know, we needed it to have high reliability. And back when we first set it up was in the early days of startos where Start OS wasn't nearly capable of having the kind of uptime and reliability and accessibility that we needed for that server. So we put it in on a VPS, right? Self hosted BTCPay server on a VPS and it's done fine. Well, yesterday I moved our BTCPAY server over to our, one of our company devices. The whole process took about 20 minutes and it's up and running. And now I decommissioned the VPs and we're going to save that money. But also we have total control over, over the server now. And it was easy to do and it was fun to do. There's, there's something to be said for the clearnet experience because that is, that is really the, you know, I don't want to say the. But a killer feature of startup S040 is the ability to just put any service interface, any interface of any service onto a clearnet domain and have it accessible on the public Internet and publish it. That experience is so gratifying. It's so smooth and easy and gratifying. And the proof of work is there because you can then go to the website, right? It's not this private thing anymore. It's like out there for the world and you can have people go to that website now and you can go anywhere and just pop open your phone and visit it. That. It's, it's kind of addictive. I'm not gonna lie. I, I've, I've had a lot of fun. Each little thing that I button up and just put out there is, is like another, it's another win. It feels good and I want to keep doing it. Um. Cause you're, you're, you're saving the money and you're taking back the control. So it's like, it's like having a successful garden, right? Like the thing you were trying to grow. Booms. And you're just like, I did it. [00:29:25] Speaker B: I didn't know if it was going [00:29:26] Speaker A: to sprout or not, but it did and it's delicious. I'm eating my own tomato right now. Yeah. For sure, there's a huge sense of self esteem that comes along with taking control of over important parts of your life and saving money at the same time. It's cool. It's a good double win. [00:29:43] Speaker B: This is literally what, this is kind of like the rabbit hole or the, the kind of chaotic little period that I went down when I first discovered wholesale and, and I feel like this is like an entirely new level of it because wholesale is still something that I had to manage and constantly start a service and close a service. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't really a permanent setup, it was just kind of an ephemeral, let me connect to something real quick. But it's exactly how I love using my Linux machine. I really think this is kind of what will define the next era. At least I know it will be for me and I suspect for most bitcoiners and people who actually care about like running their own software and heart and controlling their hardware. But I think increasingly that's more and more people like so many, like there's a reason why local models and like Herms Agent and Open Call and all of these things have exploded so much and people are aggressively trying to figure out how to local run because as the privacy and control issues get worse, as all of the tools themselves get better, people are just realizing that, you know, they're getting called. It's not even, it's not even like they're giving it some things and they're getting their metadata, they're getting everything, they're getting constant end to end, like full conversation and full, full file systems, I mean full file systems, everything. Right? It's just the whole, it's like, it's the whole dump and people are realizing the severity of that and the risk that they're putting themselves in. And I really think this, the defining era that we are moving into is making all of the devices that we already have accessible, accessible to get rid of. There's these huge barriers, these walls between all of our devices that platforms have built routes through and we have to log in and create an account and give them our credit card and give them access to our machines to get around this wall. And it all feels artificial. It all feels like, oh, we should have just, we were just supposed to build a solution to this and everybody built a company to funnel all of our data through instead of a solution. [00:32:00] Speaker A: It's the result of the need for security, the need for confidentiality. I'm not going to say privacy because somebody has your data. They're just trying to keep it safe from other people. Right. The need for security, confidentiality and access. The intersection of all of that, absent the actual user's ability to build their own roads, resulted in the current situation. Right, which is cloud computing with the SaaS business model and all the gates that you experience at every checkpoint. Right? Just endless checkpoints in the digital realm. I don't, I think that it is useful to the state security apparatus. They're taking advantage of this, of these, of the infrastructure that emerged. I do not think it was intentional. I don't, I don't think that there was some sort of a, like scheme on behalf of the state to build, you know, a digital prison for, for the population. I think that the natural evolution of personal computing afforded an opportunity to the status to, to, you know, be like, oh, we could inject ourselves right there, right? Everyone's funneled through this one little gate, so we'll just park right there and [00:33:18] Speaker B: check everyone's id, incentive and path of least resistance. [00:33:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And now, now there's intent. Now that they, now that they want control of it, they're, they're actually working with the big tech companies. And that's been happening for a while, sure. But, but really it's just a matter of, of the, the ability for people to do it themselves. Okay? Like if people can do this stuff themselves and they don't need to use the public roads and the public checkpoints, then they're exempt from, from the, the dangers of those, of those checkpoints. At some point, there may be an attempt to make not using the checkpoints criminal. Right? Like if you don't use a custodian, it's illegal, for example, that type of thinking. But at that point, at least it's overt, right? At that point at least there's clear lines and somebody has to actually be a bad guy. Somebody has to be like, no, you're not allowed to grow your own food. You're not allowed to connect your cell phone to your laptop. You have to go through a Google server. We need that to be obvious. We need that statement to be overt. Because once it is, then you have an actual rebellion, right? Then you have people being like, okay, there's, there's tyranny. And so they, then they can form a resistance. But so long as there's a question mark, is it tyranny, right? Or is it just incentives? Is it just lack of alternatives? Right? This kind of, this ambiguous area is not good enough for people to be like, okay, it needs to be obvious. There needs to be Obvious tyrannical behavior. And so in order to make it obvious, we have to have clear alternatives. Right. We need clear alternatives to the centralized cloud computing SaaS model. Once those clear alternatives exist, people will begin to use them. And if people begin to use them and they are told that they're criminals, they. Then it will be obvious. But until those alternatives exist and everyone is just basically forced to use the centralized models, not because somebody made a law that they have to, but literally, it's the only way to connect your computers together. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:34] Speaker A: Then it's not obviously tyranny, it's just the default. It's just the only way to do it. So we are aggressively building the alternatives. Right. We, we are trying to make it possible for people to use computers as simple. The statement is the broad statement, use computers without intermediaries and custodians. If we can make that not only possible, but practical, feasible, easy, then I'm convinced, and we have proof already that people will do it. Not everyone, but an increasing number of people will opt for the model that is provably sovereign, right. Private, secure, and under your own control. For lack of a better definition of sovereign, I think that's pretty good. And the more they do, the more the lines will diverge. Right. Until there's a chasm between the centralized model and the decentralized model with a clear line between them. And we will force either a reconciliation at the natural technical level, let the best product in the market win, or we will force the hand of the authoritarians to say that our model is illegal. And then we have a different reconciliatory. Reconciliatory approach. Right. Which is. Okay, it's revolution time. Yeah. [00:37:00] Speaker B: The force. Force everyone to realize that the water is boiling. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:07] Speaker B: Like force there. And that's what. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Give them some relative observation. They don't know unless they know what cold is. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And there's. I cannot remember. It was a philosopher, I think, talking about how like to not give them. It's like, it's like one of those things. It's also common in like libertarian, like argumentation or whatever. Is that okay, you and I are disagreeing about something. Let's say you're a statist and I'm a, I'm a libertarian and we're arguing about something is. Okay, well, you know, I disagree with you. I disagree. I think, I think I should be able to select my own healthcare plan or, you know, whatever it is. And, and they're like, oh, well, you're wrong. It was like, well, okay, well, so we're arguing right now, do I have, do I have the right to, to live my version and you have the right to live your version. It's like, oh, we have to have universal healthcare or whatever. It's like, well, no, no, like we, we disagree. Do I have the right to disagree? Would you personally come and put a gun to my head and tell me that I have to buy your health care plan and like, the, the idea of like, forcing them into the position of like, putting the gun. There's no, there's no actual debate here. If you're saying I don't even have the right to have my opinion, you're saying that I don't have the right to live it. I don't have the right to disagree with you. Why are we debating if at the end of this is you're going to put a gun to my head when really they're just hoping somebody else puts a gun to my head so that they don't have to think about the fact that that's what they're doing? [00:38:47] Speaker A: Well, it's not that. Yeah, it's not even that. Right. Correct. They don't want to have to think about it. Right. Because nobody wants to believe that they're evil. Right. So they shroud their own end game in endless word salads. Greater goods and red tape and regulation and justifications usually summed up by the greater good. Right. That's ultimately what it all amounts to is the way that, the way that evil people hide their evil from themselves is by saying that it is unnecessary, that it is necessary for the greater good. Okay, so the, the ultimate, you know, fallacy in, in this whole debate is, is the greater good fallacy because if you, if you uphold it, then anything goes. You can do anything. Right. As long as you do it in the name of the greater good, which is tough to prove and also incorrect, at least in my philosophy. It's not even, it's not even a justification. Even if it is true. It's never okay to kill someone to save 10. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:01] Speaker A: I, that's actually a different argument there. There's some nuance to that statement, of course, but, but when it comes to statecraft governance, it's never acceptable. Right. So anyway, what do you want to talk about next? [00:40:18] Speaker B: Yeah, well, well, the thing, the reason I brought that up was just because, like when, when you create the tools to actually free yourself, you, you create the tools to put yourself in control and to, to get your privacy and to get control over your own data and to connect your machines and then you realize that Google or Apple are removing that capability from you or the government is telling you that you simply can't do that, is that it breaks through that red tape. It breaks through that delusion and it forces, it forces the framing that. No, that we're, we're 100% tyrants. We're going to put a gun to your head and we're going to tell you you have to use our database so that all of your information is stored with us and that, so that we can know every single, every single thing about you and that can, you know, help us protect our pedophile child sex trafficking rights. [00:41:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's forcing the reality to the surface. Right. It's really, really important because if underneath all of it is the threat of force, as in you're going to do it my way, then it's important to tear down everything that's on top of that so that everyone can see, right. Even the person performing the act. They need to realize themselves that that's what they're claiming. [00:41:35] Speaker B: You know, remove the, those, the space for them to be able to delude themselves by making it very clear what the dynamic is. [00:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so, but again, there needs to be alternatives. [00:41:49] Speaker B: So. Yeah, that's the beauty of vibe coding is when, when software moves this fast. This is why I think open source is kind of like an end game or not an end game, but it's a, it's a trajectory. Because open source is the only thing that can actually adapt quick enough. You know, it's like, it's like trying to control evolution in a highly volatile environment. Is that like. Well, no, evolution is going to outpace you because it can, it can adjust at every turn through trillions of interactions while you're trying to make one, one change or accomplish one thing or make one decision and you're spending all of your time on that. It's like Apple, like, There's a reason OpenClaw was built in the open source community. There's a reason why all of these things expand way, way faster. We're in a place like Apple is having to use massive amounts of AI just to gatekeep what gets into their app store. And it's only going to tenfold in a year. You know, like they're. The cost of trying to micromanage is going to skyrocket and the cost of making our own custom adjustments or having a model just tweak Start OS or whatever tool it is that we're using to, to do a little thing that we wanted to do or to be custom to my workflow with some app or something on top of it. Like, the endless stuff that I vibe code throughout the day for my workflow in my setup is just going to. Is just going to plummet and it's not going to make sense that I have to ask Apple's permission for me to deliver this software to a friend, you know? [00:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:32] Speaker B: I mean, we're. [00:43:35] Speaker A: We're about to witness who knows what, man. I, you know, I've talked a lot about this recently, just privately with people, but I'm sure you're on the. Up here. Like, we are about to turn a corner in human history that nobody knows what's about to happen. It's gonna be so fast. I mean, we're. We're in it. [00:43:57] Speaker B: We are. We are super in it. [00:44:00] Speaker A: This isn't a future thing. There's no more singularity on the horizon. Like, we're in it. This is it. [00:44:06] Speaker B: We're at 0.88 GS right now. Taking a sharp. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah. When you look, you know, in retrospect, posterity will view this time as a moment, not, Not a. Not a time frame. They'll view it as a moment, right? Like when you look backwards in history, the dinosaurs went extinct in a moment, right? Like it was like. It was like an event that happened. And so when we take that retrospective perspective, we expect it to apply to the present. We expect things to feel like an event, right. Like it's gonna collapse. How often you hear people say, like, the financial system is gonna collapse. They say that as though it's gonna be like an event. Like they're gonna wake up one morning, they'd be like, oh, it collapsed. But that's not how time works. Time, right? We. We condense timeframes to events for the sake of explanation, for the sake of. Yeah. Creating a timeline for, for the sake of categorizing and talking about something, but in reality, for narrative. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Take years to unfold. The collapse is happening. We're in it. This is it, right? This is the, this is the inflection point. This is the turn. Everything is changing right now. This is the event. And we don't really know what comes out the other side, right? Because when something is changing so fundamentally and so rapidly. Yeah, you can go to the park one day, touch grass, sit around, just not going to feel like anything is changing, right? But if, but, but if you zoom out a little bit, everything is changing right now. And with the AI tools, dare I call them tools, with the emergence of the super intelligence that can pervade the digital realm and with the. The degree with which it's improving on a weekly basis, I don't know what that means for all of us. You know what I mean? I'm trying to figure that out in my own life right now, trying to figure out what I'm going to do in the future when everything I do in the present can be done better and cheaper, practically for free by a bot. And I don't think anyone is safe from this. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to. It's sort of. It comes for each of us in its own time, depending on what your passion is, depending on what your purpose is. But what's actually at stake here is purpose, right? To. To. To make this extremely concrete. That is the thing that's being disrupted, right? If you look beyond the industry lines and the different skills and the tools and the economy, purpose is what is being disrupted here. [00:47:05] Speaker B: That's what makes people afraid to. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Well, not only afraid, but panicked to the point that they perceive it as excitement, myself included. Okay? I have equated what's happening right now to the Titanic as a nice visual, okay? Different people in different parts of the ship realize at different times that the ship is sinking. And even if they don't know that the ship is going to sink completely, they do know that they need to scramble for higher decks. That's obvious, okay? And that's sort of the phase that we're at right now. I think people are scrambling for higher decks. They're looking for somewhere dry, somewhere to preserve their purpose, and they're not yet convinced that the ship is going to sink. A lot of people, again, myself included, to some degree, are trying to tell themselves a narrative that they're. It's not going to sink, that if they just find high enough ground, they'll stay out of the water. But if the whole ship goes down, you're. Everyone's in the water. And the question is, is there a lifeboat? Is something going to save us? Is there something we haven't realized? [00:48:13] Speaker B: Something float. Something float out there. [00:48:16] Speaker A: Anything safe. And you don't know. So what you do is you scramble for higher attacks, you look for somewhere to stay dry, hoping that even if you do realize the ship is going to go down, hoping that by the time it does, a life raft has arrived and you're one of the few that can jump on it, that is my view of the world right now. And here's the thing, I'm not being pessimistic. This is not me being negative. I'm literally just saying the damn ship is sinking. Like you can get mad at the guy who says it, you can say you're being negative, but if you're on a ship that's sinking, you say that ship is sinking. You are not being negative, you're just being honest. And again, all of this is an analogy for purpose. The ship sinking is human purpose, okay? Like we need that. That is essential to our biology. If you were to, you know, classify the needs of a human being, biologically speaking, right. Obviously you have the preservation of life. Right? I got a connecting message. Did it work? [00:49:26] Speaker B: Me too, but we're fine right now. Yeah. [00:49:28] Speaker A: Okay, so in the hierarchy of needs, right, let's, we'll create a simple model's. Yeah, correct. So you have your, your life, all right? You need to sustain your, your physical body, food, shelter. And after that, at least in my, my model, you have, you have self esteem, right? The, the conviction that you are worthy of, of this world and this life. Without that, you will self destruct, right? You will experience guilt and self hatred and you will make decisions that destroy your life. You know, slow suicide through substance abuse and bad decisions, et cetera, et cetera. That is a self esteem problem. Purpose is next on the list. If you have no purpose, you could think you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and you could be the healthiest person in the world. But if you have no job, if you wake up in the morning and you have nothing to do, nobody that depends on you for anything, nothing you do is something somebody will pay for. You have no value whatsoever. You see this in the form of heirs, right? Often people that have inherited fortunes, you know, a purposeless existence is, is no life at all. And that's not me saying that we should want that or we shouldn't want that. I'm talking about biology here. I'm saying that humans are designed to work like we want to contribute to our communities, to our families. We want to feel needed and valued. And when we are entering an era now where that is threatened, where nothing you do, nothing you can possibly do could be done better or cheaper, therefore is less valuable than what can be done by a non human entity. We have to solve this. We have to figure out what that means. We have to figure out what our existence means in that kind of an environment. And I don't have an answer. Yeah, I actually haven't figured that out yet. All I'm doing right now is scrambling for higher decks. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Same. And I think this Is where I think this is why faith is such a. And I don't mean that in the sense of like some particular religion or something, but just faith. Faith as like a general mindset is so is such a powerful and ubiquitous part of, you know, human history and culture is because we are constantly. Actually, we love to dumb things down. We love to take insanely complex organic, impossible to imagine systems and put them into this neat little category where it's just this metric or this thing or these two. To these two interactions. And we kind of tell this like super dumb, very simple, straight line story about what it actually is. And most of the time it correlates and is. It seems to align with that when everything's nice, right? And then when everything becomes chaotic, we inevitably realize the truth, that we are just kind of dumb monkeys throwing at the wall and trying to find out what sticks. And the world is infinitely complex and completely unpredictable. And so we go through these kind of periodic cataclysms where stresses build until something breaks and you know, the dam breaks and the, the landscape is reshaped. And you basically just have to believe that to some extent, or this is, this is my view on it. You just. I just have to believe that, oh, we're gonna survive and we figure it out because we've done it how many times, you know, and you know, Javon's paradox, like we, we will find something to do because that's what we've all. That's what we do. That's what we do is we, we find a purpose. That's, that's our, the, the end. The, the total and complete story of humanity is what the hell are we doing here? Let's figure it out. And I like to think that this actually brings us closer to our purpose because our purpose can be higher. Our purpose can be not, you know, getting food on the table day to day, but something that might have deeper meaning. You know, you don't, you don't have time to sit, to have philosophy until you've got time to think. Um, and so I don't know. That's, that's kind of how I see it when I, when I get to a point where I can't, I can't, I can't make heads or tails of it, you know, is. Zoom out, I guess. [00:54:47] Speaker A: Yeah, you're, you're scrambling for higher decks. You're looking for, you're, you're hoping and looking for the, A lifeboat. Something that will sustain your and others lives into the future. Knowing that the current ship is probably Going down, right? Things are changing at, at best and hoping that there's another ship that we can get on. And I, I'm with you. I just don't know what it is. I don't see it. I can't figure it out. Like, you know, and I'm not sitting around all day trying to, I'm just scrambling. I'm just building, right? I'm using these tools, I'm leveraging because here's what I do know. Regardless of where we are, end up. Chaos is an opportunity. This, when you, when you rug the world, it is the opportunity like we just did when you rug human civilization in multiple ways. By the way, this isn't just AI. We're talking about robotics, we're talking about interplanetary travel, we're talking about advanced healthcare with microtechnologies. We could see lifespans expanded by double. It wouldn't surprise me at all in the next decade if people start living to almost 200 years old. Like, we're rugging humanity in every way imaginable. Right now you're being rugged from every direction, right? The entire global financial system is changing that. I mean, so if you're looking for opportunity, just look up holes everywhere, ladders everywhere, okay? And so that's my mindset right now, is I'm just, I'm, I'm just scrambling upward. I'm trying to, to leverage this time and this technology with, with grace and aggression to, to move and capitalize, right? Because no matter what happens, no matter where we come out the other side, I want to be a part of it. I want to, want to be a player. I don't want to be on the bench. I want to be in the game. If I look further out, I don't know if any of that matters. It's like, like I said, like, maybe this is all just the humans scrambling for, to be the top of, of the hill and then the AI is on the moon, right? And so, but, but again, I don't know that. So I have to hope that there's something that all this effort will be worthwhile. So, yeah, I, I, I don't know where. I don't know. I don't know because, because I look at myself and just being honest, it's very easy to say, it's very easy to outsource this to other people and be like, well, yeah, the guy who just does tasks and just does what he's told by his boss, you know, who moves numbers in the spreadsheet from column A to column B, of course he's going to get wiped out. He's got nothing to do. Like, well, he's unemployable. It's easy to say that about someone else. Right? And you could extend that to factory line workers too, right? Even plumbers and even the, even the trades where people feel safe. Right now the humanoids are coming, they're going to be 10 times better at what you do than you are. And that's easy to say, but it's harder to look at yourself and come to the same conclusion because the results could be catastrophic if you acknowledge that. It's like, but I try to do this. I look at myself. What do I do? What do I actually do? You know what I mean? The office thing. What would you say you do do, right? [00:58:08] Speaker B: Like what, what do you do here? [00:58:09] Speaker A: Yeah, like I do a lot. [00:58:11] Speaker B: I'm a people person. [00:58:13] Speaker A: Yeah. But what, what is the essence of what I do? Like, what am I actually protecting? Right? Like what value essentially do I add to my company, to my community, to my family? Right? Like what, where's my real value? And I can point to a lot of things, right? Honestly, not, not in a, not in a like self absorbed way, but I do a lot and I'm good at a lot of things and I think I had a lot of value and would have been indispensable at certain times and in certain places in human history, as I have been at start nine. But I don't think any of the things that I do, if I'm being honest, can't be done better by an AI. I mean we, we were years ago talking about how an AI would never beat a human at chess. Fucking AI just of logic program, right? Would never be to human hs. Yeah, it did. Now it crushes humans, right? It's not even a game. Yeah. Then we were talking about. Well, yeah, but it could never be a human at Starcraft. Way too complex go. Way too complex. Right? Well, they did. And now it's not even a game. They crush us. This was pre 2024, 2025. Crushing us. [00:59:26] Speaker B: Oh, this was 2009. [00:59:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Just crushing us. This is way before this revolution. [00:59:31] Speaker B: So it's like chess was like 1994 or something. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Like, yeah, we're doing the same thing again. It can't, it can't be, it can't be creative at that level. I'm an artist. It can't do art. I, I, I plan what work to do, right. This is the main narrative right now, this is the big one, is yes, it can do anything but it can't figure out what to do. It doesn't know where to best put its efforts. A human needs to direct it. That's the new. That's the new chess. Of course it's gonna figure out what to do. It has more context than you could ever imagine it can run. So there's. There's nothing I, I can't think of anything that I can do long term that isn't gonna look like a toddler trying to do it to these systems. And you could extend that to your family, maybe. Well, I'm a father. I took my children in. I did. Yeah, that's going to be safe for a while. I do. I think it's going to be safe for a while. But it's not safe indefinitely. They'll make better life partners. Humanoid robots will be better life partners than humans. Most people will choose the robot. The vast majority of people will choose the robot. People could care two shits if they are dating, having sex with and procreating with a human or a robot. They don't care. Right. Artificial. [01:01:00] Speaker B: That's a crazy one right there. That's a crazy one right now because that's the end of a species. [01:01:05] Speaker A: You won't know. It will be better at being a human than your current spouse. It will just be better. It will know you better. [01:01:13] Speaker B: You're absolutely right. [01:01:15] Speaker A: More. Yes. Yeah, but that's like mongrel AI right now. Those are like idiots. I'm talking about if the exponential improvement of these things continues, it will literally be better at being a human than any human. It, even the flaws, it'll fight with you. It'll know your psychology and biology so well that it'll be the ultimate drug for you. You'll be addicted. Imagine the perfect, perfect spouse, the perfect partner, the perfect woman. And I mean flaws and all. It will be that right for you. Like, I'm just saying nothing is safe here longer term. I'm not talking about tomorrow. That's not happening tomorrow. But if you, if I, I've had, I've had artists and filmmakers. When, when this first came up, I was talking to a friend of mine whose wife is a filmmaker in New York. And he was incredulous, as was she, when I said that there's going to be no film industry, that the film industry is going to be me sitting at home on a Friday night being like, I want a movie that's kind of like Gladiator but also kind of like Matrix. And I want there to be like this. I want the main character to look like me and I want him to do these things. And it'll be like making your movie for you. And it'll. In 10 minutes, you'll have a feature length film that was produced, that was written, acted, produced, directed, and delivered to your screen as a custom movie that has never existed. And it will crush the Academy Award. Like, it'll, It'll be the best movie ever made, right? In minutes. Like, so. I'm just saying that there is no. And his, his response was, yeah, but people won't want to watch those movies. They'll want to watch the movies that are made by humans. This is roughly the equivalent of saying people will want the blanket that's hand knitted over the blanket. That is, that is. [01:03:21] Speaker B: It's the bowls that you can, you know, are hand. Handmade because they got little bubbles and imperfections. [01:03:27] Speaker A: Correct. And here's the deal. You're right. There will be a market for that and they will sell at a premium. But how many people buy handmade blankets? Right? It's a tiny market. It's a tiny elite market of collectibles. There's no real large scale economic value in it. And therefore it can't justify an industry. It can't justify an economy. It's just a niche. It's just a corner of the world that people go to, to feel special. But the vast majority of people will consume products that are mass produced cheaply. And my point is that they'll actually be extremely high quality. Just like our mass produced mugs today are extremely high quality. Right? Like, I don't, I don't get clay and make a mug yet. This mug is really high quality. It's got nice weight. It's totally, it's made with all natural materials. Like, it's, it's not like we, we went out of our way to find like awesome, healthy mugs, but they're still mass produced. You know what I mean? Like, so anyway, it's just. I don't see, I don't see. I don't see it. I don't know what we're gonna do. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Let's. Well, we'll figure it out. I'm with you on the faith front. With you on the. We will get through this. I just can't wait to see how. I'm excited. I'm excited to see how. Because I don't see it right now. However, if anyone listening to this thinks that I'm like, moping around, you are sadly mistaken. I am the most Energized, most aggressive, least sleep. Crazy, panicked. Building with excitement and joy that I have ever been in my entire life. Like, I am soaking this up. This is what I was born for. I love this moment in history. I love the chaos. I love the uncertainty. I love the violence of it. Like, I just can't wait to see where we get. But if you're asking me where we, where we end up, I have no idea. I don't. It's a black dark corner that we are turning. [01:05:31] Speaker B: It's crazy too, to think about it because, like, it's one of those things. It's like, okay, could this be horrible for the species? Could. Could this be horrible for our purpose? But then you're also talking about, like, it's also a recognition of something that is. Makes everything we need so unbelievably easy to produce that it practically becomes free. You know, like. Like, so it's. So it's like, is it the end of our species or is it like, is it where everything is so accessible that our species finally gets its moment to flourish kind of thing? You know what I mean? Like, there's. There's a huge dichotomy of like, it could literally go either way. Well, here's. [01:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So here's the deal, right? We've talked about this before, but I want to. I want to do a quick recap and then we'll dive into the. To where it. Because now it's on hyperdrive, right? Go back a hundred years, 150 years. Okay? How many man hours did somebody need to put in in order to afford a family of five? [01:06:29] Speaker B: Right? [01:06:29] Speaker A: A home, piece of land, family in this country? Okay, how many man hours, how much technology, time saving technology was invented between that era in history? Let's say, let's say a single. Let's say a man had to put in 60 hours of work a week on the railroad, et cetera, to have a house and a family of five. Okay? Wife's not working, wife's home with the kids. Okay, so 60 hours a week, house, family of five. Now, fast forward to today. How much time saving technology was invented in that time? I mean, it's almost unfathomable, actually. How much time a 50x, like insane amounts of time saving technologies in the form of machinery and computers, okay? What that means is, is that somebody doing the same job, right? Having a farm, maintaining that farm for themselves, doing work for others, et cetera, should be able to do not one to one. It's not like 1/50 of the amount of work. Because the economy itself has expanded. The amount of things to do has expanded. But it would be insane to say that with all that time saving technology, somebody has to put in more man hours today to afford exactly the same standard of living as before. That's an insane statement. And yet it's entirely true. Not only is it more, but it's more than double. [01:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [01:07:54] Speaker A: You need two incomes. I was about to say probably triple and then some. And you're still in debt. Okay. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:00] Speaker A: So something is really, really wrong here. We know what it is. Yeah, I was about to say Bitcoin or something. [01:08:08] Speaker B: I know what it. [01:08:09] Speaker A: We have cancer, Massive institutionalized theft in the form of inflation. Like we know what, what the problem is and we know what the solution is. Okay? But here's the problem exacerbated that is accelerating. The time saving technology is accelerating. Right. I can do more. I'm not kidding you. I can do more in a day right now than I could do in seven days one year ago. Yeah, okay. [01:08:40] Speaker B: Oh, mine's a hundred x because I couldn't write a damn line of code. [01:08:44] Speaker A: I could code my ass off and I'm still doing 7x. [01:08:46] Speaker B: You can't divide by zero. [01:08:50] Speaker A: So, so what's, what's happening here is this accelerating, this equation of. What we should have happening is prices should be plummeting. Right. We should have massive lower deflation, higher standard of living price. [01:09:06] Speaker B: Deflation. Yeah. [01:09:07] Speaker A: Correct. Yes. Yeah. While the economy is expanding. Right. But everything should be getting really, really cheap to the point of back of back of napkin math here. I think that in a free economy, not the fiat economy, but in an open free economy based on sound money, I think that today the amount of hours that an average person would need to work in order to afford the, this middle class lifestyle, a 2026 middle class lifestyle. Okay. Not the 1920 middle class lifestyle, but like a modern middle class lifestyle. I think it's in single digit hours a week, if not a month. I agree. I think you're talking about like I'm going to mow your lawn. [01:09:54] Speaker B: I think the theft is that bad. [01:09:55] Speaker A: Without a doubt. That it is. It is way beyond what people realize. Like you should be able to work a few hours a week at most and buy a house. One person, okay? That's how crazy efficient the modern world is. We mass produce things at rates people can't imagine. Grocery store, have you been to Costco? You know how much food gets thrown away? Like how insanely inefficient the entire global Economy is because of this theft, because of the artificial constraints, if imposed upon the economy, result in a mass, mass disequilibrium. Right? And, and ma. And, and, and the consequence is poverty. The consequences is basically people not being able to afford a life that they absolutely should be able to. I mean, if you view human history as I do, as, as the capital, the, the knowledge capital and innovations that came before us, right, Is our inheritance. It's, it's not a matter of deserving or not, right? Like when you're born to, if you're an heir, right, Your parents had an empire and you're born into it, people don't come around and be like, you don't deserve that money. They might, they might criticize you for being lazy. They might. But, but nobody says like, no, we, we, I mean communists do, but non communists don't say like, we should literally take the money, it's not yours. Your parents made that money, you didn't. You do not legally deserve it. Right? Like we're going to take that from you and give it to everyone else. Yes, there's some psychopaths that say that stuff. But, but, but that's on the fringe. However, very few people would say that you are the heir of humanity, right? That you deserve the wealth produced by our forefathers. They absolutely would be like, no, you need to work 60 hours a week like I do to earn your living. You don't deserve to ride on the backs of that innovation, on that productive achievement that came before us. Like, but we are inherently, this isn't like a perspective I have. I'm saying that we are literally, inherently, irrevocably the heirs of human history. Like, we inherit the trade, the knowledge that came before us, but we're being denied the ability to use it for our own purposes, right? That information that IP intellectual property, right? And the regulations that surround everything you could want to do in this world actually prohibit you from using to a degree the, the inventions, the wealth that was, that was bequeathed to you by our ancestors. So not only is it massive theft, but it's also barrier to entry. They're putting up guardrails to prevent you from using the things that you have every right to use. They can't stop you ultimately. Like, you can wiggle through. People do find ways up, but it is riddled with danger and obstacles. And so most people, most people simply can't navigate it. But it's all artificial. So anyway, long story short, in a free world, in a free economy, we're all rich, we're all rich because humanity is rich and getting richer by the week at this point. Right. Like, productive capacity capabilities that we have now. It's like we are rolling in it, rolling in it, but it's being 100 artificially kept from. From everyone. [01:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think. I think people don't realize that. And it, it's simply, it's simply true that, you know, there's, there's part of, like, if you think of the economy as an organism, you know, 80 to 90% of what we produce is simply consumed to keep the organism alive. Right. And then there's this 10% that we can use to grow, to test, to expand. And I think people have not realized that the cancer that our organism has is larger than the rest of the organism. Like, it's like we're atrophying. Like, we're. We're at the point where we're eating our own muscles. It is taking everything that we produce extra, and then it is also killing the organism. Like, we have, we have passed that halfway point of a sustainable parasite. And so many people are latching onto this narrative that, like, just desperately. Because it upends the entirety of, like, how we think everything should work. And it's, it's exactly why, despite the chaos and the insanity of where we are headed, there's. There's no other. Like, you have to kill the cancer. You can't, you can't just keep doing business as usual, because then you just die a slow, painful, terrible death in delusion. Um, and that is literally where we are headed if we don't change. And so it's almost. It's good to have these accelerants because it just puts us in a position where there's no option but to change. And the more things converge at the same time, the crazier, the more chaotic and the more violent the change will be. But the more likely that. That we can't avoid it, you know, that we can't prolong it any. Anymore. We cannot procrastinate anymore. Like, Oh my God, common sense. What's his name from the Revolutionary War? Thomas Paine. Thank you. Like Thomas Paine says, you know, like, we are like a. We are like a man who is. Is procrastinating on doing, making the change and making. Taking the action that he knows he must be done. But we keep saying, we'll put it off until tomorrow. We'll put it off until tomorrow. Well, when the flood comes, you can't put it off anymore. You have to go out and you have to take care of business. [01:16:19] Speaker A: So I, I agree. And I also will cite again that this is not a, it's not a moment. There's no like action that we can, you know, discrete action that will be taken and viewed as such. It's that it's happening all at once, right? Like the, the collapse and the rebirth are happening at the same time and much more rapidly than you can perceive on a day to day basis. Like this is a moment in history. This is the collapse and the emergence of something new today. It's happening now. And that's why I was saying so like into this right now. I've never been so alive because I recognize that I'm in that moment and that I get to participate in it. I'm actually participating. I'm helping give birth to the new thing. I hope, right to some small part like that is, that is very exciting even if it doesn't matter at the end of the day and the AIs take all my jobs, whatever. But like in the meantime I feel like I'm really a part of a part of this revolution in some small way. And that's this very, very purposeful, very, very gratifying. So however, my, my concern about this, right, is that again you're talking about like yeah, we need to like make a change, right? And again that change is being made in the form of Bitcoin, in the form of, you know, decentralized models. Even in so far as like food revolution, like the revelation that yeah, you know, our food is all poisoned and everything's poisoned and we're all, oh wait, [01:17:49] Speaker B: animal fats are good for you. [01:17:51] Speaker A: Back to like, you know, the basics. And this new awareness that that is spreading like wildfire now that is all, you know, part of it. My, my concern is that nothing, I shouldn't say nothing, few things die without a fight, right? So when it comes to political systems, social systems, what is the thing that is dying, right? It's not a person, it's not a particular group of people. Yes, there are certain people who are more involved than others and they have competing interests themselves. But nobody wants to see their wealth and power being revoked. And they will utilize whatever non evil justification they need to for themselves to justify their, their actions even to be [01:18:51] Speaker B: as evil as they possibly killing people [01:18:52] Speaker A: and doing whatever they need to do to maintain their power in the, in the name of the greater good and whatever, but they will and they are. And so there's real danger here. And I, I think that it's important to keep that Mentality. Like, I am a peaceful builder. I'm an engineer. I'm a family man. I hate violence. And I'm here to build. I'm here to build for the future, for my children, for my loved ones. That's my focus. It's all positive. But I also recognize that by the very nature of building something new, I am, to a degree, obsoleting something old. I'm making it useless, I'm making it undesirable. And that is effectively stripping its value, stripping its power. And I recognize that, at least in my line of work, those people are not the type to just roll over, right? So it's hard for me to look out at the future under the current landscape and trajectory of not just my own work and life, but of all of society and not see violence. It's hard for me to look out and see just some sort of, like, peaceful transition to a bitcoin standard and a decentralized computing model and a healthy, you know, food and drink and clothing model of the world, especially as you extend that to, you know, all over the world, not just our, you know, little chunk of land here in the United States. Like, it's hard to look out and see this transition as being smooth and peaceful. I wish, but I don't see it. And so a lot of my thinking recently has been on, well, how does that play out, right? Like, if someone says yes, someone else says no. And that is an irreconcilable difference. They're going to fight it out, right? And they can go there. They can have two choices. They can either go their separate ways, or if they're stuck in the same room together, they have to fight it out. And we're all stuck here together, right? Like, we're all fighting for the same piece of land, which is how humans will use technology. Will it be in a sovereign, independent way, or will it be in a centralized, gated and controlled way? That is a piece of territory, if you want to think of it that way. And when two people are fighting over the same territory and there's an irreconcilable difference, fundamental. [01:21:46] Speaker B: Both of them are certain. It's an existential crisis. [01:21:49] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's definitely an existential crisis for your own power, at least in my framing of this, of this confrontation, is that one group is trying to preserve their wealth and power and control over others, and another is trying to. Is trying to take wealth and power for themselves, get theirs back. [01:22:08] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. [01:22:09] Speaker A: Just trying to take what's theirs as opposed to control everyone. Else's. That is my framing of this and what I believe is happening. But nonetheless, it is for the same territory. It is for that same space and same resource and. And I don't see the parties going their separate ways. I. I think it comes to blows. I think it comes to a fight, and I don't want to fight. I have been in fights. I will fight if I need to, but I don't want to. But I do know it's important to be prepared for a fight, even if you don't want to and don't end up needing to. It's a good idea to have the tool set. It's a good idea to have the skill, to have the mental preparation. And so a lot of what I do now, my own thinking around it, is for the fighters. I actually think of what I'm building now as tools, defensive tools and skills for fighters. Non fighters can use it too. No big deal, right? But we're technology for the fighters, products for the fighters, products for the people who, when it comes to blows, will need them. Right? Ask anyone who's been in any kind of conflict in the modern era, even in the ancient era, what's the second most important thing to firepower, possibly even the most important thing? [01:23:45] Speaker B: Information. Knowledge. Comms. Yeah. Communication. Yeah. [01:23:50] Speaker A: The ability to coordinate activities across time and space in a secure, private way. That is exacerbated in the modern era. Right. Modern warfare is all about information and then firepower, targeted firepower, not carpet bombing, but targeted assassinations, et cetera. That is modern warfare. It's all about information and the tools of information, right? The weapons of information are all in the hands of our enemies. And so I think it's really important to build, you know, defensive tools and skills for the resistance, for the other side. I don't want that to happen. Right? But. But think about gun manufacturers. It's the same mentality, right? It's like you do have the right to bear arms. In fact, it is necessary for an armed population to resist tyranny, right? And nobody, some people do, sure, but nobody, again, sane is going to say, well, people shouldn't be able to have guns because you're taking away your tools. It's like saying a tiger shouldn't be able to have claws. What's going to happen to that tiger? It's going to get mauled by every other tiger that does have claws, right? We deserve the right to live, and we deserve the right to live freely. And that means having the tools to defend our life and freedom. And in the Information era. That means information tools, right? The original tagline for start 9, very few people know this was digital defense systems for the sovereign individual. That was our original tagline in 2020. [01:25:35] Speaker B: That is music to my ears. But it's, but it's too, it's too, it's too deep for most people. [01:25:41] Speaker A: I mean, digital defense systems, right, that's what we build. That's what we've been building since late 2019. We don't use that tagline right now because it doesn't resonate with as many people as well, maybe even sovereign computing doesn't resonate. But regardless, that is what we build. And they are peaceful defensive tools so that people can live private, dignified lives. But if someone tries to punch you, you should use that tool to defend yourself as well. And I hope that it doesn't come to that. But if it does, I think it's important that people have these tools. And so that's what I build. That's how I've defined my purpose right now is to. In an era of massive transformative time where everything is being disrupted all the way down to human purpose, I see chaotic times like that as potentially resulting in violent behavior for people that don't do well with change. And I think that if you are imagining a potentially violent, you know, world, you should probably take some reasonable measures to prepare yourself for that world. And that includes, especially in the modern era, your digital systems. You need to be prepared for your SaaS providers to cut you off and delete your data. You need to be prepared for Telegram to tell you you can't use it anymore and you won't be able to talk to any of the people in your life. Right. I don't know if that will happen to you. I don't know if that will happen to everyone. But in a time of insanely fast change and massive disruption to all of human society, I think it's. I think there's a good chance that that'll happen to many, many of us who are deemed to be not so desirable. And so I think it's important that we have alternative methods of talking to each other. [01:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I. A hundred percent, A hundred percent on the same page there. And this might actually be a good segue because I. We still haven't really gotten into the gritty of some of the stuff about START os and maybe actually just right now go through the couple of the few things that you are most excited about and the things you think I am going to be most excited about and then give me Kind of an overview for the router or whatever for everybody who doesn't know exactly what you can do with it. Because I think the router is just a huge. I agree with you on that. Point is I just like that's such an important and so underserved market and product. You know, it's kind of just been like hand waved away as like, well, whatever, it's just a router and yet so many people are so concerned about it. But it also feels like this thing that people have just like, okay, well I can just make an app or I can just do a thing and like get around the problem rather than actually go straight at the problem. So yeah, we'll follow up with that. But let's start with start OS. [01:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. So start OS040 is a new operating system. It is really not proper to think about Startos 040 as an update to 035. You can update from 035 to 040, but that's only because we put massive amounts of trans translatory logic in between. It is a different operating system. Almost nothing survived. We rewrote everything. And not because we're masochists, but because, but also you recognize the importance of getting it right at the base. Okay. Like so much, so much in software is patchwork. It's why everything sucks. Right? It's because there's very few people who are willing to start over. Yeah. [01:29:44] Speaker B: Go to the bottom. [01:29:45] Speaker A: Oftentimes they can't because of the business imperatives, because of the investment imperatives. Right. There's this pressure, especially in the software world to get to market and expand rapidly. Right. Like we've gotten addicted to these like unicorn style Silicon Valley VC backed companies and this model of app development where it's like you shove something out the door, you, you know, grow the user base, you sacrifice revenues and profits for growth. You'll figure out how to make money later. Just get the data, monetize the data, lock em into a subscription, make the unsubscribe button difficult to find. There's. It's like this nasty little world. [01:30:33] Speaker B: I hate that so much. [01:30:35] Speaker A: Nasty little world. Oh my God. It's run its course too. It's over. [01:30:38] Speaker B: Yeah, dude, so I'll tell, I'll just. A really quick aside is that I have, I have come to the point where if I'm trying to cancel or pause a subscription and I can't, I have to send an email or something to cancel something that I, I literally, I delete, I remove everything I, if, if I ever even Entertain the idea of canceling and then find out that it's really hard to cancel. I will cancel the service. I will go ahead and do the work, and I will never, ever sign back up. That is the quickest way to get me to never come back to your. I don't care how useful you are. I hate you. You are my. You are. You are trying to scam me by making give me big open invitation door and then locking the exit. I. You're a piece of. I hate that so much. [01:31:24] Speaker A: I love your passion about it. I agree. I agree completely. It's awful. It's time for it to die. It is dying. And so. Sunken cost fallacy is another reason why things are done in the way that they are. It's not just the pressure and the business imperative of the SaaS model. It's also just doing. Working really hard on something and being honest with yourself that you got it wrong and doing it over. And the more important the thing that you're building is, the more important it is to get it right at the base. If you're building a simple little app and you know it not working perfectly is no big deal, or you can patch it up in a way that is pretty sustainable, you know, fine, you'll rewrite it later, right? Maybe it never gets done, but at least you plan to rewrite it later. We don't have any of those problems at Start nine. We don't have anyone calling the shots except for me and Aiden. We own the company. We control the company. Yes. We've taken investment. Nobody has a say except for us. We don't. We take the advice and desires of our investors and the people close to us seriously. But ultimately we. We call the shots and we know what we're doing and they trust us to do that. And even if they didn't, they couldn't do anything about it anyway. And so we've rewritten starter last four times now from scratch. This is our fourth iteration. And we each time have had to take a big sigh and go, okay, let's throw it out. Let's throw it out. [01:33:20] Speaker B: I feel this so hard right now because I've done the exact same thing with tear drive. [01:33:25] Speaker A: We missed the abstractions. Yeah, you know, we. We didn't understand the problem set fully. Let's. Let's do it better. Let's rebuild it. There's a limit to how long you can do that. You eventually will, you know, go bankrupt or people will lose interest. We've been very fortunate that we have had revenues. Right. Like we have something to sell. We are not some zero revenue SaaS product that's just trying to get users like we pay the bills. We have been fortunate to raise money on decent terms. We are also were smart enough to put that money into Bitcoin. So all things told, between our fundraising, our investment strategy, I should say capital preservation strategy, with Bitcoin and our own sales, we have managed to live a lot longer than we otherwise should have or could have. And that has afforded us the ability to do it right, to do it for the future, for the long term. And that meant starting over. It meant wiping the slate clean and rebuilding. And so start OS040 is a total rebuild. You'll see some familiarities, right? We got a lot of things right in the previous iteration. So it's not like we didn't, you know, re re adopt some of the same patterns and user interfaces. Of course we did because O 3.5 is a pretty good product. We got a lot right, but we fixed all the things that we didn't get right and that required tearing out the foundation. So we'll highlight a couple of those. The biggest is control over the networking stack. So start OS040 in a way that 035 could not have imagined. Gives you absolute control over how your self hosted services are accessed and by whom, right? You control it. So you can. If you're on your lan, right? If you're on the same network as your server, you can access your various service interfaces. When I say service interface just for reference, Bitcoin for example, start OSS3 service interfaces. It has a peer to peer interface. That's how your node connects with other nodes. Has an RPC interface. That's how wallets are going to connect into your node. It has a ZMQ interface. This is used by dependents like LND for accessing the node. And each of those interfaces is its own host. It has its own ports and TOR addresses and clearnet domains, right? They're all managed separately. So it's not just like Bitcoin. You're not just choosing how to put Bitcoin into the world, you're choosing how to put each aspect of your Bitcoin node into the world. Very granular control. And if you're on your lan, you can connect to your. We'll say your RPC interface, right? Like if you want to connect a wallet to your own node. Very common use case of a Bitcoin node to connect a wallet to it so that you can use it to verify transactions. If you're on your LAN. You can connect to your Bitcoin nodes.local address that has a unique port. You can connect to the IP address at a unique port. You could put your Bitcoin RPC interface on a Tor domain. You could make that Tor domain a vanity one, right? It could start with the word bitcoin be Bitcoin. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Onion. You could create two of them. That's pretty good. [01:37:03] Speaker B: I didn't catch that one. [01:37:04] Speaker A: Yeah, you could create two different onion addresses if you want. Just for fun. Why not? You could delete them all and make it not accessible on Tor, totally under your control. But you could also put it on a private domain. Okay, so you could put bitcoin on mat Bitcoin, right? You could do Guy Swan. Doesn't need to be a real domain, right? This isn't the domain that you purchase and pay for on a yearly basis. Just make it up. Could be Guy Swan. Fuck. Yeah, Right? Like that's your domain or your Bitcoin rpc. You can do that with Start os, and start OS will allow you to use that domain. You'll need to be connected to the lan, obviously, right? No public DNS resolver is going to resolve that domain because it doesn't really exist. But you could also put it on Facebook. Com. I could literally put my Bitcoin RPC on facebook.com and there's not a damn thing Facebook could do to stop me. Right now I would only be able to access facebook.com which is my RPC Bitcoin interface, on my LAN. But I can access my land via VPN. I can go to the other side of the world, turn the VPN on my phone, and go to facebook.com and it's my Bitcoin node. Okay, Just for fun. Why not? Okay, so. Or you could put it on a public domain. You could put your Bitcoin RPC on a public domain. Call it, you know, rpc.mathill.dev. right? Maybe that's my RPC interface. And I could go anywhere in the world and pull out my phone and connect my phone to my Bitcoin node in my house simply by entering rpc.mathilda dev or bitcoin.mathill.dev whatever I want. And startos makes this trivially easy. Like way easier than any system that has ever existed for doing stuff like this. Right? It's always been possible. Everything I just listed always been possible. But you needed the skills, you needed the time, you needed the patience, right? And then it would break and you wouldn't know how to fix it. And then you're just like, you know what? It's not worth it, screw it, I'll just use a blockstream server, you know, and that's the problem. That's the problem is that it's always been just slightly too difficult, slightly too time consuming to justify real use case. And we have done away with that. You can in 040 trivially put your services, whatever they are, whether it's your Nextcloud, your vault warden, your blog, your website. I mean, we've made it so easy to self host your website, your landing page for your company, or your personal resume, or your blog, or your family's photo sharing, or your password manager, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We've made it so easy to put all of those things on either the public Internet or a private domain, to access them via vpn, to host them on the Darknet using a Tor hidden service. All of it. Just click the buttons and do what startos tells you to do. It's very, very curated, very guided. It's not that you have to do nothing, it's that you can do what is required. We've lowered barrier, right? It's you still have to put it together. I don't want to mislead anyone listening to this, right? Think of Start OS as IKEA furniture, right? Or any furniture that you put together. [01:40:31] Speaker B: I like that analogy. [01:40:32] Speaker A: Shows up, yeah, you open the box, the pieces are all there. There's a 1, 2, 3 guide for putting the pieces together. Boom, you have furniture. Okay? Very few people can't put IKEA furniture together. Of course there are people who can't do it. And there are going to be people who can't use Start os. They're probably the same people because they require the same skill set. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just. [01:41:00] Speaker B: No, I know, I know, that's funny. [01:41:04] Speaker A: So it requires a particular skill set, and that is following instructions and asking questions if you need help, seeking help if you need help, but otherwise following instructions. Most of us have been through school, most of us know how to follow instructions. Right? Actually caters to the thing that schools do best, which is follow the damn instructions. Don't critically think. You don't need to critically think. Right? You can if you want to. We encourage you to understand how it works, but you don't have to. And in fact, you can get yourself into trouble if you try to bring your prior Linux sysadmin. I know how to do this stuff because I hacked it 10 years ago mentality to start OS, it's not going to work out for you. You can do a lot of advanced things on the command line. In START os, everything is possible. But if your goal is to have a coherent, featureful, self hosted software experience in this world that is is private, secure and totally under your sovereign control, if that is your goal, you do not need Linux sysadmin skills. You do not need to even think very critically about any of this. Just identify what it is that you want to do, go into the START OS interface and start to do it and follow the instructions. What we are also coming out with here, 4040 for the public release, which is not yet in added to public beta, is we have built out what everyone thinks and wanted openclaw to be, okay? So openclaw showed us what's possible. It showed us a new idea, okay? This idea of an, an, an AI, an agent that sort of lives on your computer, right? It's a virtual assistant, like for real. Not Siri, not any of the stuff that came before, but like a real intelligence that is just sort of like living on your computer and has access to your digital world and serves you. That is a huge idea. I think it's the idea. I think this. [01:43:10] Speaker B: No, it's the idea. [01:43:11] Speaker A: This is it, right? This is the idea. This is the big thing that everyone wants. Everyone wants a super intelligent digital assistant that does everything for them. [01:43:23] Speaker B: I mean this was Alan Turing's idea of a computer, you know, like, well, [01:43:28] Speaker A: if you extend it to robotics and everything, right? Power is real. You're talking about like single individuals soon being capable of wielding armies of robots that serve them, right? So openclaw is not just like, oh hey look, like texted my mom good morning, right? That's like the sharing cat videos on the Internet compared to what the Internet is capable of, right? [01:43:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:56] Speaker A: The idea of OpenClaw is big. It's big, it's powerful, right? I don't mean as an idea, I mean for you, right? Like the potential for something like openclaw into the future is immensely powerful for a human, for a human life. So the problem is, is that it's the Wild west, okay? Openclaw was just like a demonstration. Think about it like a really clunky demonstration. And now the name of the game for all the computer companies. Apple, Microsoft, right? Google, they're all going to be coming out with their OpenClaw equivalents. Nvidia Jensen was already talking about this in one of his talks. He was just like, everyone needs an Open Claw strategy, I think, were his words. That doesn't mean everyone needs to use OpenClaw. He's saying every company out there needs to understand what Open Claw has demonstrated and build a. A similar kind of a program and product into their computers. Because people don't want to use their computers anymore. They don't want to type on the computer. They want to tell an AI to type on the computer. Computer. [01:45:00] Speaker B: The interface has shifted for the first time since the mouse and the keyboard. Yes. [01:45:04] Speaker A: The interface is now just chat or typing, but again, you're human interaction. We're abstracting away from the actual use of the computer. Right. It's like having an assistant who carries your phone around with you everywhere. And so rather than you looking at your phone and hurting your eyes and spending all day looking down, hurting your neck and all that crap, you just have an assistant behind you and you're just like, text this person. Do that. Tell me what Google says about this. Right? [01:45:31] Speaker B: Dude, I want a robot. I want a robot that follows me around and we're like, video my kids right now. This is fantastic. And I don't have to look at it through a freaking screen. [01:45:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's the interface now, however, we need to keep in mind that at least for the foreseeable future, in my opinion, people still want the ability to click. They don't want it taken away from them. They want. They don't only want to be able to access the computer through the agent, they want the agent to assist them, but to be able to come in and not only grab the wheel, so to speak. Right. If they. If they want to or need to, but also to be able to see what the assistant is doing because they don't trust it. [01:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I was about to say, I don't ever want to lose that ability because then. Then I've lost the. The power that it actually gives me. [01:46:14] Speaker A: Right. You're now. You're now it. It's the ruler. Right. It has. It has taken control over the thing that's important to you and therefore can hold you. Blackmail. Can Blackmail. You can hold it ransom. And we can't. We can't let that happen. It needs to remain the servant. Right. In these models. So what we have done, developed and will soon be releasing. We're calling it Start Bot. Why not? Right? Start. Start. Wrt. Start. Yeah, yeah. Our docs would be. Our docs have been renamed to the Start Docs. Everything we do is start something now. It's just. It just happened we didn't mean for it to happen. It just, it was very natural. [01:46:53] Speaker B: So honestly, it's how, it's. It's how I know it's yours. You know, like, like, how else would you. [01:46:58] Speaker A: We're owning it. [01:46:59] Speaker B: Naming conventions matter. They do. [01:47:01] Speaker A: Like, everything is Start. So Start Bot is, has three facets, okay? One is knowledge. We have put an enormous amount of work in I have put an enormous amount of work in to taking our entire knowledge corpus, all of Start os. Start Tunnel. We haven't even talked about Start Tunnel. Start Tunnel is our virtual router product that you can install in a cloud VPS and have a. Basically a virtual router in the cloud as opposed to one in your home. But it knows everything about Start os. Start Tunnel, Start wrt, all of the officially supported services for startos, all of them Bitcoin, lnd, nextcloud. We have indexed, we have scraped, indexed, diluted, curated all of these docs for all the upstream services. Basically anything you could possibly want to do on a start 9 server. On start OS and adjacent technologies, we have now created like these extreme, extremely accurate, extremely efficient, like context token efficient indexes that can be easily navigated by an LLM. Okay. And we've tested this extensively at this point. It's really good guy. [01:48:16] Speaker B: Nice. [01:48:17] Speaker A: Is awesome. It's like the ultimate support agent. Okay. Like really understands our products and technologies and ultimately needs inference, right? There needs to be an LLM back there somewhere. [01:48:28] Speaker B: Dude. Quinn 30B, if you give it, if you give it good memory, give it the right content, you give it the right, the right access to data. Quinn 30B is powerful and with Turboquant now, like you can, oh my God, you can squeeze that thing into tiny amounts of memory. [01:48:42] Speaker A: It's awesome. Yeah, we know, we're very aware of this. And so StartBot, the support assistant we'll call it, is really well tested and working great and can be run on very small models. [01:48:54] Speaker B: Okay? [01:48:54] Speaker A: Very small, powerful models. So you can even do it locally on your CPU if you really wanted to. Okay. Like onboard the Start 9 device, you don't even need external device because The Start Server 1 is an integrated GPU for the AMD chip. The server peers an integrated GPU for Intel. They're both plenty good to spit out, you know, 20 tokens per second with the Quinn 3.5 done properly against StartBot. And it knows everything about Start OS. So you have an onboard support assistant now and we're building this right into Start os. So basically you're going to have a drawer, okay? So, like, half your screen will be your chat interface with your agent, and the other half of the screen is your actual Start OS gui. So you can be on the left, clicking around, installing things, configuring things, and asking questions on the right. And it will be able to see what you're doing if you give it that access. So it'll actually be able to walk you through and help you. But to do things on Start OS and explain why it's done this way, how it works, oh, I need to go create a DNS record. How do I do that? It'll tell you how to do it. And it's getting all of this from our docs, which we are maintaining very aggressively at this point, specifically for this purpose. Okay, so that's Facet one. Number two is systems administration, right? We wrapped startup, we wrapped the Start OS JSON RPC API. Basically how you use Start os, right? The entire API for all of Start OS with an MCP server, which is basically just a fin wrapper around the JSON RPC API that explains what each method is used for, when a user might want to use it. Right? So that in, in general English and Prose, the LLM would know why these endpoints exist and what they're used for, why someone would want to use them. And so what you can do, if you choose to, is give StartBot authentication to the Start OS API. And so not only can you now ask it questions and it have and it tell you what to do, you can just be like, do that. And it will do it. So you'll be on the right side of your screen chatting. And you could say things like, as broad as this, okay, I'm not just talking about telling it literally which buttons to click. You could say something like, hey, StartBot, I want my friends and family to be able to take photos with their phones wherever they are in the world. And to have those photos synced to my server such that they can organize them into albums that are shared with one or more of us. Each person should have a maximum data of 5 gigabytes, right? But I want to be able to make exceptions to that. But five seems like a reasonable default for everyone. They should all have their own logins and passwords so that we can't see each other's photos unless they're shared. And I want it to be on photos.my family.com. right? You could just say that. Just express desire to Start bot. And it will literally be like, all right, I have a few questions for you. You know, have you Already gotten the domain, blah, blah, blah. It'll ask you some questions, questions. It'll refine or basically plan with you this. And then it'll come up with a plan. It'll say, all right, here's my plan. I'm going to install image. I'm going to hook it up on this clearnet domain. I'll need you to go to your DNS provider and create this record. Here's how you do it. 1, 2, 3. And you just click go. And you will watch on the left side of the screen as image gets installed and things get configured. You will literally, because we built Start OS as a live websocket system. So you will literally be able to watch as StartBot clicks around your server and does things and installs things, it configures things, it puts em up. And in like five minutes you've eliminated iCloud and Google Photos from your life. For you and all your friends and family. Five minutes. And you didn't need to know shit except what you wanted. Only knowing what you want is all you need to know. Now with this, so long as you can express what you want and answer questions, you don't need to follow instructions anymore. You just need to express what you want accurately and it shall be done. [01:53:09] Speaker B: Fact that this is even possible just is such a wild indication because we're still, we're still at the beginning of a curve here. [01:53:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:53:22] Speaker B: And it's such a, like where this is going. And you know, well, we're hoping to [01:53:27] Speaker A: be part of that foundation because I think we know where it's going. And we're going to be extending into security cameras and drones and robotics into the future like start9wants. Our ultimate goal is the sovereign smart home and beyond. Right outside the house too. But we'll start with the home. That's our goal here, is to make it such that you can basically just shout a desire into the air in your home and have a smart speaker catch it and do the thing. You just should be able to be like, show me the outside camera and it'll just pop up on your phone. And all of it, none of it is going through an intermediary or a custodian. It's all 100% local, secure, under your control, et cetera. So that's facet number two of StartBot, is to actually administer the server. Not to just know how it works and to tell you, but to do it on your behalf, which is opt in. You don't need to do that if you don't want it to administer the server because again it needs to be backed by an LLM. So if you have StartBot administering your server but you are plugged into an Anthropic API. Anthropic is actually administering your server, right? [01:54:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:33] Speaker A: The company, they know everything about your server. Your entire file system has been shipped off to an anthropic server. So if you're going to use StartBot to administer your START OS server, we are going to highly recommend that you are using at least some kind of privacy preserving LLM provider like Venice or Maple. Right. At least that. But ideally you're actually doing it locally that you're actually performing the inference either on your server, in which case it'll probably be a smaller model, might not be as competent or against a local cluster. Right. Like get yourself a powerful GPU. Right. Most people don't realize this. Startos040 you can flash onto the Nvidia DGX Spark. Right. And that's yes. The Nvidia DGX Spark is arguably the best bang for buck software inference stack in the world right now. Bang for Buck. It's the winner. It probably is the best. Okay. You can just flash it with startos. Buy a DGX Spark from Nvidia for $4,000, flash the fucking device with Start OS and you have a full stack, right. The entire stack is on one little mini PC. [01:55:54] Speaker B: Did you see the hint that was dropped between that Apple and Nvidia are working together right now with Exo Labs to. Because the recently Mac just did it so that you could do the direct. You pass all the networking or whatever in the Thunderbolt and you do direct to memory connection. [01:56:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:56:16] Speaker B: And they. Somebody. Somebody teased it or whatever. It was an NGX NDX DGX Spark and a MacBook plugged into each other and basically running some inference like. Like through it with Exo Labs on the screen or whatever. Which anyway, just for a local run. I'm just some of the. Some of the leaps that have been [01:56:39] Speaker A: made in the last few weeks. Local inference is coming. Okay. And we're going to be a part of that game as well. Right. We are intending to come out with a much larger than the DGX Spark but probably more powerful GPU server that can do the full stack right on the. On the device. But in the meantime you can either add the GPU to a start 9 server. Right. We support adding and detecting hardware and using it for acceleration. That is a formal feature in startos040 or like I said, you can just flash the DGX Spark and you'd be up and running in seconds. We don't get any money out of that. But I encourage it, right? I don't care. Just do you make it work. So that's number two third facet of Start Bot. Let's say that you want. I'll give you a real example, real world example. This happened. Let's say you want a cost splitting application. You know, like you're all out and everyone's like buying different things. Like I buy the hotel, you got the drinks, so and so, got breakfast the next morning. Like we're on a team thing and everyone's paying. We want to like track expenses across that trip and then at the end, you know, settle up, see who owes who money, right? Split wise, I think is the like the popular SaaS product that does this, right? Like everyone uses split wise when they're trying to track costs amongst a team and then settle up later. So let's say you're out and you're. You're on your phone accessing your Start OS interface and you're talking with StartBot, right? Which is gonna be a. Again, a PWA. You'll just talk with StartBot. It'll be like a chat. You just open the app on your phone and you're talking to StartBot, which is, which is your server in another state, okay. And you just go, hey, my friends and I need to track expenses on this trip. I don't wanna download splitwise and pay for that and have them, you know, track all our data. Is there anything on the marketplace that does this? And StartBot might be like, no. Like there's nothing on the Start9 marketplace or the community Registry that does what you're asking for. However, I spotted this open source project that has, you know, 500 stars on GitHub, seems well reviewed and well maintained. Called Split S P L I I [01:59:02] Speaker B: T. [01:59:05] Speaker A: I could package that up for start of us. You go, okay, package it up. So enter StartBot the developer. Okay, StartBot is now capable of. I've been testing this for months now. It's really good, guy. Really, really good. StartBot can now grab open source software that exists in the world, package it for Start OS on the fly and install it onto your server. Nobody else in the world has this on their startup server because it's never been packaged and released on the marketplace. But if you need it, start autopkg it for you. It's a developer as well. So it packages it up, installs it onto your server. And it might ask you something like, hey, I think a lot of people in the world might benefit from this. Would you like me to open up a ticket with Start nine to have it listed on the Community Registry? I'll put together the PR and report and testing procedures. I just need your GitHub login and I'll post it to them or I'll send them an email. And you say, sure, I think other people could benefit from the thing I had you packaged for my server. Why not? Or, or even better, we just released a couple days ago the registry for start OS. You know, we have like our, the start 9 registry and then there's the Community Registry. Right. You can now run your own registry on Start OS simply by downloading the Registry service from the Marketplace. It's very recursive, right? It's very kind of trippy. [02:00:34] Speaker B: Oh, that's funny. So there's a, there's a Registry service that like there's, there's a, there's a click and go Registry maker. Yes. [02:00:41] Speaker A: But you, you host a registry which you can put on clearnet, like guys marketplace.com right? [02:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:00:49] Speaker A: And you can have startbot package services on your star9 server, test them on your star9 server, list them on your registry so that people around the world can go to your registry and download software for their devices. Now, there'll be a huge warning in the Start OS interface for visiting random registries and downloading software because you could distribute. [02:01:12] Speaker B: Come on, you can, right? Come on, you can let me through, [02:01:15] Speaker A: you can trust me. [02:01:17] Speaker B: Come on. [02:01:17] Speaker A: It's just a cost splitting application. So yes, people will be, will be hurt by this, but that will only increase Start N's value in the ecosystem because we will curate and vouch for our registry. It's a safe place to shop. We'll have key signing procedures that people can trust that are totally transparent, etc. Etc. But it's really important that we are not a central party and people don't have to use our Registry. Right. If we ever become compromised, if anything ever happens to us, the registry ecosystem just shatters into a billion pieces. And we're building a feature into Stardust 041 where you will actually be able to add public keys of people in the world that you trust to distribute software to Start os. And START OS will make sure that you never install a piece of software that isn't signed by a quorum of those keys. So you could be like, all right, here's five people that I trust START os, here's their five Public keys and never install a piece of software unless three of those people have signed it. Wow. Then you can get it from any registry. [02:02:21] Speaker B: The centralized registry doesn't even matter at this point. It's just. [02:02:24] Speaker A: No, it's all just trusted keys. We are, believe it or not, and I mean this to the core, I don't care what the consequences are for myself, my company, or my investors, okay? We are actively trying to cut ourselves out of the equation. I don't want anything. Fuck hiding the door, right? Like, I'm not. We don't get people in and hide the door. I'm literally shoving people out the fucking door at every opportunity. I don't want start 9 to be a part of the ecosystem, except if people want to work with us because they like us, because we make it more convenient for them, because we offer good support, et cetera. But there is no part of everything that we're building that requires you or even encourages you to do business with us. [02:03:17] Speaker B: There's a, there's a point to that too though, that, like, when you build tools where everyone can exit isolates, like the fact that you're, you're forcing your position to be something that's actually giving real value, you know, like, like you can't. You're essentially putting yourself in a position where you can't trap someone to, to give artifact to lock them into. Like, we're going to provide you an artificial value by getting it. Giving you an artificial barrier. It's. It like, okay, well, what is the real. What is the actual value? What's the commodity that we can still provide when we give you tools where you can go wherever you want to go? But we want, we want to prove that we're the best, that you're going to stay with us because we're the best. Because we're going to be the best in our own ecosystem. [02:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah, you know what? It was before I. Even when I was like trying to raise money for start N, I was telling investors exactly this. Like, we're not like building a SaaS model here. You know what I mean? Like, we're going to shove people out at every opportunity. And the question is like, well, how do you make money? I was like, well, ultimately, you know, we're selling hardware, but we're not like hardware people. Right? It's mostly just white labeled components that we put together and ship out. Like, it's nothing special. Right. We're not like fabbing boards or anything yet, but, you know, we'll sell hardware, but why buy hardware from us? And not save a hundred bucks and build it yourself. What are we actually selling, right? We're selling convenience, right? We're selling an expedited, luxurious path to getting set up. [02:04:50] Speaker B: Trusted convenience. [02:04:51] Speaker A: Correct. [02:04:52] Speaker B: Trust. Yeah. [02:04:53] Speaker A: But then I added to it. I was like, we're selling convenience. We're selling time savings. We're selling support, right? Like, our support is incredible, right? I staff a support channel all day, every day. People drop in, ask a question, they get an answer, right? We have incredible support and backing. All of that is trust backing. All of that is reputation and trust in me and Aiden and Start nine as a brand, right? Backed by me and Aiden, basically, and our support staff, everyone who's a part of. But we're the ones people know. And to be honest, most people don't even know Aiden. But, like, that's really what people are buying. And. And I. I declared that a giant business could be built on that. I was like, you think about what I just said is like, yeah, we'll. We'll scrape by, we'll make a living, but because we can't trap and gouge, people will never be a huge company. Bullshit. That was a different era 20 years ago. You're absolutely right. But this is a new era. SaaS companies are going to get wiped off the face of the planet. The only thing left to sell is what we're selling. [02:06:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:06:03] Speaker A: There's nothing else to sell. There's no software. [02:06:05] Speaker B: 100% agree. [02:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're. We're the future. We are. We are the next big thing because we're thinking completely differently than all the other software companies are. We know what we're selling. We're selling trust. We're selling convenience. We're selling support. We're selling community. Right? Want to be part of something? Want to feel like you have a purpose, that you're helping make the world a better place, that you're part of the resistance. That's a product. It's a good product. It's like selling healthy, organic fruit, right? That's a good product. And when we're selling it. But here's the thing. With StartBot, we're losing pillars by the day, right? Because it's like, I can't. How am I going to sell support in a world where everyone's got a tiny little local GPU that is a literal genius at start 9 support. Why would they pay for support? Why would they come to our community channels? And so it's like, man, we talk about scrambling for higher decks, like earlier. It's not just me Personally looking for my purpose. It's like, what do you do as a company in this world? How do you, like, build a business with integrity? Okay, because you can build a business by extorting people. Right? You can always steal. Oh, yeah. That's what most, most of these companies are doing. Hopefully these technologies are minimizing their ability to do this, but this is effectively what they do. But if you want to build something of value with integrity in a way that is not. Like, this is hard. I don't know. You know, so we're just going to keep building and keep scrambling and keep trying to offer value and keep hoping that people want to do business with us and want to, you know, buy our products and hang out in our channels, even though it probably won't be necessary. Right. Like they could build it themselves and get the support they need without ever interacting with us. [02:07:58] Speaker B: Isn't. [02:07:59] Speaker A: I think maybe at the end of the day, the answer to that is, well, that's lonely. It's not lonely here. We got good people, passionate people trying to do big things and, you know, maybe. Maybe you'll just want to hang out. Maybe that's worth. Maybe that's worth paying for. We'll see. [02:08:18] Speaker B: Let's. I want to talk about the router before we run out of time here and if I can hang on to you for a minute after, after the show, too. I want to ask you something off. Off air. But let's, let's get into the router and how this works with. Well, actually, you know, give me the overview of the router for the people who don't know it. [02:08:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So the router, the way that you [02:08:43] Speaker B: think about, when am I going to get it number one this summer. [02:08:50] Speaker A: Okay. [02:08:50] Speaker B: Okay. Now keep going. [02:08:52] Speaker A: It works today. Okay. I, I feel comfortable giving that ETA because you can literally use it today. So I could give it to you today, but I won't because. Son of a. Let me make it a little better. Okay. Like, I, I don't want you to have to deal with the iterative development. [02:09:13] Speaker B: I love alpha testing. I love alpha test. [02:09:15] Speaker A: Do you though? People need to. Until it all breaks. [02:09:20] Speaker B: I love it and I hate it. [02:09:22] Speaker A: And then their network down. Yeah. Especially with a router, if you're using it for real. Like you're talking about your home Internet here, right. If it goes awry, like, you're out, you're done. So just give me a little bit more time and we'll get you something. But the, the way people think routers are boring. You said this earlier, right? It's just like this weird black box that you put in your house or that your ISP is supposed to do it. And like you just have Internet then, right? It makes Internet happen. It's a magic Internet box. And the most that you ever really do with it is set your password for your WI fi, right? You give your WI fi network a name, probably something really clever, funny, and [02:10:01] Speaker B: then you lock it up with 951. [02:10:05] Speaker A: And that's it. Yeah, that's what people do with routers. The problem is, is that this is an extremely important appliance, okay? It is, it's called a gateway, right? Like it's literally the gateway by which you access the Internet, which is where you spend an enormous amount of your time. And it's also the gateway through which the Internet can access you. Okay. And for the most part that gate is just closed, right? Like that gate is just a closed door. There's actually a lot of cool things you can do if it's open and open safely. Right? Like being able to access your home while away from home is a very useful thing. Let's say you have a doorbell, smart doorbell, or cameras, right? You want to view those things while you're away from home. How do you get in? You got to get in through the router one way or another, right? There's a lot of techniques that you can use that, you know, nat punching techniques, which doesn't mean anything to anyone that you could use, but ultimately it's still going through the router. The router is still involved in all packets. Okay. So it's this extremely important device and it's way more capable than you think it is. Like you can do a lot of really cool stuff with routers. Okay. Cool stuff regarding privacy. Cool stuff regarding. [02:11:19] Speaker B: Hole is in the registry, right? No, no, it's not. [02:11:22] Speaker A: Okay. No Pie hole. We'll talk about that in a little bit. Okay, Sorry. PI holes, this really interesting tangent thing that is somewhat obsoleted actually by our router, so. [02:11:35] Speaker B: Oh, cool. [02:11:36] Speaker A: Not fully, but I'll. I'll expand on that in a little bit. So routers are these powerful devices that they're the traffic controllers of all digital. All things digital, right. Whether that's on your network or on the Internet, the route, the router intercepts, intermediates, everything. And you can do some cool stuff beyond just privacy and security preservation, which is enough, but you can also do some cool, cool stuff. Like you can make it such that every night at 8 o' clock your kids devices will stop being able to access the Internet, but your devices will continue to work fine, except on the weekends. The kids devices can access, you know, the Internet till 10pm but they're going to use special DNS servers to make sure that no unwanted content reaches their device. Right. So you'll set custom DNS servers for that. You just got a new tv, a new smart tv, and most people. I don't. [02:12:40] Speaker B: I did. You are correct. [02:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Good. Most people don't realize that when you plug that TV in and you connect it to your WI FI network, that the TV can now see every device on the network. [02:12:52] Speaker B: Okay, mine's disconnected from WI fi. [02:12:56] Speaker A: Good for you. Yeah, but it's still connected to the network. [02:12:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, no, no, that's the thing. It's. It's not connected to anything. So I got a frame tv. I, I have. This is my problem. Like I, I hate this. First, I hate the way TVs look, so I got a frame TV and spend a little bit extra. But I, I connected it once to download a bunch of artwork for it and then we've just, I've completely blocked it. It has no network, no anything. I, I hate it. [02:13:22] Speaker A: You're aware of, of the problem, but you have no solution. [02:13:25] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. My solution is just gut. It's just cut that shit off, move [02:13:30] Speaker A: to the digital woods. I got disconnect. Yeah, we don't want that for people. I want people to be connected. Right. We want a connected world. We want to be able to leverage these technologies to make our lives maximally convenient and fun, but without the huge trade offs to our privacy and security, dignity. And so what you can do with any router, any advanced, any sufficiently featureful router is you can isolate that tv. But good luck, if you screw it up, your whole network's gonna go down. If you screw it up, the TV sees it anyway. And so you think you're being private, but it's actually packets are sneaking through, et cetera, et cetera. Right. You need to be able to do it competently and with ease. Otherwise you're not gonna do it, you're just gonna unplug. Right. So with start 9 router, all of this is easy. Like easy, easy, easy. Okay? You are the master of your network. This is how I came about. Came at this problem from a product perspective. I imagined the human, the homeowner as being like at the cockpit of a spaceship. They are in control of all communications that take place in that ship and all communications in and out of the ship to other ships. Okay? You're the master. And we've designed an interface that makes you feel competent at doing your job right, At. At administering the network with confidence. And that was the angle we came in at. And so the, the solution, the. The linchpin of that, of that ability was something that we're calling security profiles. We decided that the best way to manage a network and access to other networks like the Internet was to give everyone different clearance levels, right? And everyone being a device, you can think of a device as a human, if a human has a device. But again, a human can have many devices. So it's. Each device gets a different security profile. We're calling them. Okay? So first you gotta create the profiles. What are the different types of people and devices that are gonna connect to my network? You're gonna have smart TVs. Well, let's just call them IoT devices devices, okay? Because they're all kind of the same threat model. Okay. So IoT profile devices, they're gonna get one profile. I got children, they're getting a different profile. Maybe I have kids of varying ages. So I have like young children and teenagers. Those are gonna be two different profiles. Cause I want them to have different abilities. We have admin, right? I need total clearance to everything. Guests. People are gonna come to my house, right? I. I want them to be able to use the Internet and connect to things on the network, but I don't want them to be able to do other things. So I'm gonna create a guest profile, right? So that's it. You just create your profiles and start OS will ship with the ones I just listed. Standard with reasonable defaults for each. But you can create as many as you want. You create a profile just for a single person. Be like, yo, this guy, this dignitary that's coming from this other land, he. He must have access to my Roku tv, but nothing else, right? If he's going to use the Internet, he can only go to startnine.com like I want to lock him down to one website. You could do that. You create a special profile just for this guy. So creating profiles is fun. You basically just imagine archetype of a person or a device that's on your network. Create a profile of what it's allowed to do and what is not allowed to do. What it is and is not allowed to do varies from what other devices on the land can it see. The default is other devices with the same profile. Guests can see guests, okay? Not admins or children. Okay? Yeah, that's the default. But you can open it up. You could be like, hey, anyone with this profile, they can see every device on the network or nothing. Isolate them. They have no access to the network at all. Okay. Second is Internet access. Can they access the whole Internet plus a blacklist or just a white list of domains? What DNS servers does this profile utilize? What WiFi times, what times of the day is WI fi available? Devices with this profile, like children, WI fi is available, you know, from during waking hours, but it turns off at nap time and dinner time and bedtime, right? So you just create blackout times for WI Fi for devices only with that profile, right? So that's it, you get profiles. It's cool, right? So you create these profiles that granularly control who can do what on the network. Now you need to figure out how to assign these profiles. Like, do I have to like go to literally every device and do something special? No, absolutely not. The way that profiles get assigned is determined by how the device entered the network. Which door did you come through, determines which badge you get. If you come through the blue door, you get the blue badge. Right? And so what this correlates to is Ethernet ports, WI FI passwords and VPN passwords. These are the three ways that you can get into a network, right? One is by plugging into an ethernet port. So with StartWrt, you control each ethernet port. You say, okay, if somebody plugs into ethernet port one, they're an admin. And that would include a dumb switch downstream, right? If you were to put a switch downstream of Ethernet port 1, every device plugged into that switch is an admin. But if guests come over to your house and they want to use Ethernet, you give them port three. Port three gives them the guest profile. [02:18:57] Speaker B: Okay? [02:18:58] Speaker A: So we call them points of entry. So we have security profiles and points [02:19:03] Speaker B: of ports are on it. [02:19:06] Speaker A: The initial, initial 1, 1 LAN port. So the whole like different profiles for different ethernet ports is kind of lost on the initial device. We are coming out with a four port one. Don't you worry, we'll take care of you. But yes, the initial batch of units has one LAN port. We had to get something out the door. The four LAN devices come in later, but anyway, so. But you can put a switch downstream and they'll all be treated as that same ethernet port. Okay, so you still get to choose which profile people get if they're plugged into that port. Which in your case would be admin, I'm sure. Right, because you're going to be using ethernet for everything anyway. So. Okay, so these are Points of entry. Other points of entry is WI fi. So instead of doing what all other WI FI routers in this world do for some stupid reason, which is you have like a main network and a guest network and they're different subnets. This is really stupid. It's a stupid like over simplistic dichotomy. What we did instead was we said, fuck having two networks. There's no point in having a main network and a guest network. Just create a network. You name your network, right? Guy's WI fi. That's it. It's the only network being broadcast in your house. Guy's WI fi. However, there's as many passwords as you want there to be. You create different passwords and this is analogous to different ethernet ports. So if a guest comes into your house and says, hey, what's the WI fi? You say, guy's WI fi, here's your password. You gave them the guest password. They don't even know what password they got. You know, they don't, they have no idea what security profile that password is going to lead to. So when your kids want to join the WI FI network, you give them the kids password. And anyone who joins the WI FI network with the kid's password gets the kid's profile. [02:20:53] Speaker B: I mean, it's such a simple, like intuitive answer to it. It's like you just log in with a different account and the account has, you know, like it's just a different login. [02:21:02] Speaker A: Nobody does this. We did this from first principles. Nobody gave us this idea. This was just us sitting in a room being like, how do we want to use our fucking router? And it made so much sense. And so we built it right? It's just very intuitive, very common sense. And then the third point of entry is vpn. So if you want people to be able to access your home via vpn, you create a VPN server. You add a device to the VPN server, you map that device to a profile and then you give the wireguard config file to the person. So they install wireguard on their, on their laptop or cell phone and they import the wireguard config that you gave them. And now when they VPN into your home, they get the associated profile that you. So it's the same thing as plugging into a different ethernet port or using a different WI FI password. It's a different VPN password, wireguard config file. And so those are your three points of entry, right? Ethernet, WI FI vpn. You control who gets access and what Security profile is assigned and you can change it at any time, right? You can just be like, okay, all devices that are on this password are getting this new profile. You just switch the profile and all the devices update automatically. If you apply this to like IoT devices like your TV, think about how easy it now gets to be safe with this. So you create an IoT device profile that has zero access to the LAN. It can only see other IoT devices or not at all. Right? It can't see anything. It's just be like, yo, you're isolated from as it knows is in a black box. The only device on the lan. And you can give it a white list of domains that it's allowed to access that you know it needs to access in order to download the content that you want. Other than that, it can't access the Internet at all. So you've, you've created a dumb blind smart TV that can do exactly what it needs to do and nothing else. And you did that simply by creating a profile, clicking two buttons and, and then using that password. When you connect the TV to the Wi Fi, you have to use the IoT device password. [02:23:04] Speaker B: The amount of pain that I have had trying to pull that off, essentially conceptually trying to do that with devices, it has always been, it's a lower down in the hierarchy of need for the dreams that I have had than PEAR Drive, which is why I'm still working on just getting files from one machine to another. The always wanting to just be able to look at my note. I hate even the experience of just like logging into a router. Like, it's just so, it's frustrating as hell and the interface is always dog shit and like I just literally just want to go and I want to see my list of devices and I just want to be like, just don't, don't let this one look at stuff. Don't let this one do this, you know, like, just like here's my, here's my Apple tv. Just let Apple TV talk to, to talk to the Apple, you know. Right. [02:23:53] Speaker A: So that's what we've done. Okay. [02:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:23:55] Speaker A: So security profiles, points of entry, map to security profiles. That is the heart and soul of Start wrt. There's lots of other cool features. Okay, so I'll give you one just as an example because people tend to geek out about this one so. Well, there's two. One is that you can just black out WI fi altogether in hardware on a schedule. Right? So it's not like just one. [02:24:16] Speaker B: I love that one. [02:24:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not like one profile can't use WI fi, like the kids can't use WI fi. After eight, WI fi is still on. You can still use WI fi. You can actually disable the WI fi module on hardware on a schedule as well. So that's not on while you're sleeping, for example. So that's one feature, another one VPN chaining. Okay, So a lot of people are familiar with the concept of using a vpn, right? So I want to access the Internet, but I don't want the website I'm going to to see my IP address. I want to be able to access the Internet privately. So what you do is you use a vpn. Okay. And maybe you even figured out how to put a VPN on your router rather than on your phone or your laptop, such that every device on the network is going out through that vpn. You don't have to configure every device individually. I don't need to put the VPN on my phone and my laptop, I can just put it on my router. And now every device behind the NAT goes out through that vpn. That's a convenience, right? Right. Here's the problem with using a VPN in general is that Instead of giving 20 different websites and companies your home IP address, you're giving one company your IP address along with your Internet history. [02:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [02:25:24] Speaker A: So, so there's this trade off, right? Like it's a good thing to do. It just depends on who you're trying to be private from. You're trying to be private from the state. Using a VPN is probably not the right idea because you're actually consolidating your Internet activity. If you're just trying to be private from the website that you're visiting, then using a VPN is a great solution. Trying to balance these can be very difficult. So what you do instead, right, Is you chain VPNs together, create your own little onion network, so to speak. And ideally these VPN providers are in different jurisdictions that are non cooperative, that are not actively, whose security agencies are not actively working together, for example, right? You make it very hard to untangle. So what you can do is you get like your proton vpn, you get your mulvad vpn, right? You get some other self hosted VPN that you personally are running on a VPS somewhere that you rented with Bitcoin. Whatever you want to do, you just get a few VPNs right? In Start WRT, you go to the VPN outbound VPN'S tab and you add a new vpn. Okay, great. Now all traffic from the home is going out through that vpn. Now go in and add a second vpn. Except in the dropdown say traffic from this VPN goes to and by default it goes to Internet. But you select the dropdown and say have it go to Proton VPN and click Save. Now all devices that are using VPN B are actually sending their traffic from VPN from the home to VPN V to VPN A to the Internet. Okay? And we actually show this as a graph. Like if you go to your outbound VPNs page and click Mulvad, it shows you the path, it goes home. Mulvad Proton Internet. If you go look at Proton, it just shows you home Proton Internet. But you could chain these things indefinitely. You could, you could put seven VPNs on and have literally every fucking request that goes out through your home. Get hopped through seven different VPN providers around the world including two self hosted ones that you're running on a vps. Good luck untangling that. It's like real privacy. It, it, it, it solves both problems. It solves the state problem and it solves the, the website knowing who you are problem. And to be honest, you don't need seven. 2. If you chain two VPNs together and those VPN providers are not actively sharing information with each other like they're actually competitors in different jurisdictions. You're private as fuck. You're completely private. Throw a third self hosted one in there as the first hop. Now they have to collaborate with the VPS provider too. Right. So it's like you go from your home to your own self hosted wireguard server running on a VPS again that you rented anonymously with Bitcoin, then have that traffic pass to Proton, pass it to Mulvaned and send it to Facebook. You're invisible man. And we made this button just like three buttons and you can visually see where the traffic is going and hit save. And what's cool about it too is that it doesn't have a graph. [02:28:27] Speaker B: View of that is really dope too. Like to be able to like visualize what's happening. [02:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah, what's cool is that this doesn't mean all traffic from every device in your home goes out like this. It's governed by the security profiles. [02:28:38] Speaker B: I was just about to ask that. [02:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah, so you say, you're saying, hey, when I, the admin use the Internet, I want it to go out through Proton. And we're Good to go. However, when guests come to my house or when this special dignitary, when Guy Swan comes to my house, he's, he's going out over three VPNs. [02:28:55] Speaker B: I'm a special knows what he's going [02:28:57] Speaker A: to be doing on the Internet. Right. I don't trust him at all. So he's, he's going to get this triple VPN hop thing and it's going to slow his Internet down. That's literally going to make your traffic slow because you're bouncing all around the world. But it's very, very private. So there's trade offs. Right. So this is what we've done is we've made it so that you can do this like really, really advanced networking stuff but with like very clear concepts and simple buttons and I think we have a hit. I think once people understand what we've done here, how powerful of a, like you're the captain of your home network. Right. And the feeling that comes along with knowing that you're keeping your family safe and your Internet traffic safe and private. Yeah. I think we should have a hit product here. So I can't wait to get it out there. It's really cool. [02:29:47] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's freaking awesome. Thanks man. I have. [02:29:51] Speaker A: It's my first pitch of the router really. [02:29:54] Speaker B: I'll tell you, I'll tell you. I need. My problem right now is the time like everything's literally the ability like to do all of this. I just don't, I don't even have the time to like check out Herm's agent yet. Like I just don't. I'm trying to do too many things and I'm gonna have to dedicate like two days to just playing to. I'm gonna have to literally block it on my schedule to. To play with these things you dedicate. [02:30:20] Speaker A: My, my hierarchy of time expenditure always goes from highest leverage to lowest. So like I don't value it's low time preference. Right. It's like I'm gonna spend my time learning and doing things that will save me time later. [02:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:30:39] Speaker A: Everything's an investment. I Never spend time 100% I invest time. Yeah. Learning how to use start OS and start WRT in order to satisfy your self hosting and, and communication, security and privacy is not expenditure. It's going to save you so much time later. I cannot tell you. [02:31:03] Speaker B: Oh it's a no brainer how much [02:31:04] Speaker A: time I have not spent administering START 9 infrastructure because of START OS. Hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of Time I have not spent on VPs and his SaaS companies and paying bills and all the rest. Because I just click some buttons on a Start9 server and. And it works. So. Anyway, it'll be worth it, I promise. You're gonna love the router. This is a big one, dude. [02:31:31] Speaker B: I. I honestly feel like, like we're already at 2 and a half hours and like, I. I feel like we literally just scratched the surface with both. Yeah, I don't know. Okay, so start OS040alpha is. Is available now. Like, I could, I could play around with it. [02:31:53] Speaker A: Currently, it's very stinking. It works great. [02:31:55] Speaker B: Router will come this summer. But is the router OS Start WRT available? [02:32:02] Speaker A: No. [02:32:03] Speaker B: No. Okay. Okay. That's not available yet. Okay. Well, I am. I'm kind of in start 9 mode. Anyway. I woke up this morning, I was like, man, I should mess with this thing today. So I may actually flash and go ahead and, like, do that because I've been needing to make sure I have, like, a solid backup and everything. I do a recheck of everything. So I might. I might actually play around with this today. [02:32:24] Speaker A: Sweet. [02:32:25] Speaker B: But maybe d. Direct to the audience what to check out right now and what to keep an eye out for, because everybody, Everybody should get the router. I don't like, I really think that it's stupid to leave ourselves. I'll tell you, as someone who worked with a company with. As a network technician, the company routers are absolutely spy on you like that. It's used as a information collection vector. Um, and I, I, A little bit, I hate myself a little bit that I'm just using the ATT router because I don't trust. I don't trust it even in the slightest. But I know, like, I'm kind of screwing myself and I've just kind of been like, I. I've procrastinated on that problem. I've been like, okay, I'll wait for my start 9 router. Even though I probably should have set [02:33:22] Speaker A: up something a little bit better than what I have. [02:33:26] Speaker B: But I'm. God, I'm sorry. So stoked that you are solving a problem that's like third down on my hierarchy while I'm dizzy with a different one. So thank you for that. Yeah. But maybe just tell people, direct them to what they can play with. Now for the people who are tinkerers and want to play around with the Alpha and. And then what to keep an eye [02:33:50] Speaker A: out for, for sure. So the Alpha is very stable at this point, I would not have encouraged people to use the Alpha even three weeks ago. But we are in the total refinement stage now. We've come out with three versions of Start OS Alpha in the last three weeks, whereas previous gaps between them were like a month or two. Right. That's when you know you're getting to the final touches. Right. This is the finishing touches phase. And so as of today, Alpha23.3 is available and I, I think it's production ready. So I, like I said, I've already moved my personal production server over both of Start Nines. I felt very comfortable doing that. Everything has been extremely stable. So if you're wanting to get involved and get updated, you can. I'm encouraging people to do it. Now. We are not officially in beta yet, and that's only because I want to make sure that Alpha 23 doesn't introduce any regressions or any new little bugs. When we go to public beta, I want it to be really, really good because it's gonna be a lot of people updating and I don't want to get overwhelmed in support. So we need it to be like, extremely smooth. Right. This is for our own sake. It's like we can't handle a flood of support issues. So we're making sure it's really good. And it is really good now. So go ahead and update. You have to flash Update. Go to docs.start9.comstartos or just docs.startnane.com and click Start OS and go to the 040 Migration Guide. I believe it's like second or third in the list on the top. So there's. And follow that guide exactly. Okay. Don't try to get clever, you or anyone else. Just like, do what the guide says and if you run into an issue at any step, just stop, stop and contact support. Because if you run into an issue, we don't want you to. To go clicking and lose your data or something. Right. [02:35:55] Speaker B: So that to Claude coding it. [02:35:57] Speaker A: Yeah, Just don't like it's a sensitive migration. Like, it's massive. Okay. Again, these are different operating systems. This would be like migrating your Mac operating system and all the data that it has over to a Windows machine. It's like a different operating system. So there's some pretty, pretty advanced maneuvers taking place during this migration. Like if you're on an old version of start OS, anything prior to, I think, 034, we are literally changing your file system from ext4 to butterfs. [02:36:29] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Okay. [02:36:30] Speaker A: So like, we're doing file system migrations, very low level stuff. And so you need a backup. Um, and then again, if anything goes wrong, just reach out to support. We're very easy to find. I'm very easy to find. We will get you through it. Not only will we get you through it, but we will then improve it for the next person to make sure that they don't run into the same issue. I'm not expecting you to run into an issue. I'm probably being overly like, you know, cautious, cautionary. Right now. It's. You're not going to have an issue. We've made it pretty damn good. But I can't promise you that you won't. So anyway, it's ready. It's fun, it's cool. Get in there, Follow the docs. The docs are your friend. If you have a support access code. If you've ever bought a server from us and you got a support access code, I'm sure I've even just given you one. If you're in any of our channels docs. Startle.com startos actually has a little agent tool at the bottom right of the screen. [02:37:24] Speaker B: Oh sweet. [02:37:25] Speaker A: And you log in with your support access code and you can talk to StartBot and it knows everything about Start OS and how to do things. And so you can use it [02:37:39] Speaker B: is Start Tunnel. So Start Tunnel is what I would put on my VPs, right? Like if, so if I was jumping, is that, is that ready to go too? [02:37:46] Speaker A: Start Tunnel is awesome. So we didn't talk about Start Tunnel at all. Let me just give you a quick high level of what Start Tunnel is. Start Tunnel. We are calling it a virtual private router. We're coining a new term because it's what it is. People had a very hard time conceptualizing Start Tunnel because they kept wanting to analogize it to things like tailscale or other kind of cloud based hole punching, nat punching technology. No, it is a router. It's just a router that instead of living on a physical, physical device that's in your home, it's a virtual private router in a cloud. Okay. Now it doesn't do everything that a router could do. Like wifi makes no sense. Ethernet makes no sense. Right. [02:38:34] Speaker B: DigitalOcean is providing my WI fi. [02:38:36] Speaker A: So all those aspects of a router that have to do with creating subnets, adding devices to the network, forwarding ports in order to expose certain things, that is what Start Tunnel does. It is a subset of a router virtualized and in a private cloud the reason you want to do this, the reason why you would want to use Start Tunnel, is if you want to expose services. There's two use cases, okay? Very clear use cases that are in the docs, by the way. Use case one. You want to access things that are running on your server via vpn. So I have a VPN on my phone, right? And I want to access my home network. I want to access my nextcloud server in my home via vpn. You have two ways to do this. One is you enable the VPN server on your router. Okay? Not all routers offer this as a feature. In fact, most don't. Definitely not the ISP ones. They're not going to run a VPN server, right? They don't let you know. But even if they do, some of them don't work so well because routers are all crap, right? So what you can do instead is put a virtual router on a VPs for four bucks a month and use that as your VPN server. So now your phone can actually tunnel to your home through your VPS for remote private access to any of your service interfaces. Okay? It basically creates a virtual lan. Start Tunnel creates a virtual LAN and you can add your server to it and your phone to it. So now your phone and your server are on the same lan, right, that is generated by Start Tunnel in a cloud. That's use case number one. And to be honest, it's not the cool use case. There's other ways to access service interfaces remotely, but, right, such as wholesale clearnet, private domains, et cetera, right? There's other ways to access service interfaces that tend to be a little bit easier than installing VPN clients onto your phone. The second use case is the really, really powerful one that most people are going to use Start Tunnel for, which is that if you want to expose something to the public Internet, okay? So you have a server, you have a Start9 server in your house and you have a Bitcoin node on. Or you have nextcloud right, running on it. And you want Jitsi. We package Jitsi for startups. It works perfectly. You can do video conferencing. Now this is a great example, okay? Jitsi is an excellent example. So you don't want to use Zoom and you don't want to use public Jitsi servers either, because it's totally in private. You want to use your own self hosted Jitsi server, but you want it to be on Clear Net so friends and family can go to a website called you know, meet or chat.Guy Swan.com, right. They want to go to that. But you know you're going to be talking to people who like around the world and you don't necessarily want them to know where you are. You don't want them to know what city you're in. Right? You want to obfuscate your home IP address. So instead of using your router as the gateway through which Internet traffic can come in and use Jitsi, right? You don't want to use your router because everyone who goes to that website now knows your IP address and roughly your approximate location on the planet. So instead what you do is you get a vps, you install Start Tunnel, and now in Start os, you add that Start Tunnel as a gateway. It's all very easy and all very well documented. You add Start Tunnel as a gateway. So now your server has two gateways. It has your physical router and your virtual router. You go to Jitsi and you add a clearnet domain, you add jitsi guyswan.com, but you choose which gateway to add it to. You add it to the Start Tunnel gateway, and now you actually go to Start Tunnel and forward the port that it tells you to forward. So you're actually forwarding ports through a virtual router on a VPS in order to expose a server in your home to the public Internet without exposing your home IP address. It's really advanced stuff, but I promise you, it's IKEA furniture. Like you, absolutely everyone listening to this absolutely can do what I just described with ease if you just follow instructions. It's really not hard. Promise. We made it easy. We made it easy. But you have to go into it with the mindset of IKEA furniture. It's not going to do it for you, at least not yet. Eventually StartBot will just do this for you, but for now, you have to click the button still. [02:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah, now this is actually going to be like super critical with something like, like, because I've thought a lot about this with Peer Drive is like the beauty of peer to peer is that you can just host stuff in your home. But obviously the fallback of peer to peer is that now your home IP address can get ddos. Now people know potentially where you live, you know, like that sort of thing. [02:43:33] Speaker A: You're, you're also discovery. Yeah, yeah, there's the discovery challenge of like publishing something and having it be discoverable. You need DNS for that. That peer to peer doesn't really work as well. That's for private access. Peer to peer is great for private access, but I know it can be done publicly. It's just a whole other problem to solve. [02:43:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a, Exactly. It's a very, it's a very different problem and there's a lot of different trade offs and kind of dynamics involved. And to be able to do that though, and essentially without having to trust that you know you're going to have like a great. I'll have like 10 different VPN services or whatever. Like to be able to like run my own VPs and basically have control over my own tunnel into a public web is that just, that's just really, really cool. And especially on the back end because like with Pear Drive and a lot of the things that we're doing, we're trying to make it so that we can mirror, we can have as many different backends as we want so that if one computer goes down, another computer is still delivering it, like that sort of thing. And this is very much a tool that we've talked about at length and discussed how we would plug into and this, this may be the one that we end up using. Just because I have access to you. So I'll, I'll, I'll be able to bug you guys and deal with it while we're building with it. [02:44:51] Speaker A: There are so many cool like networking techniques now, right? All the way from peer to peer to things that leverage WireGuard in creative ways like Tailscale and Netbird. Netbird's a really interesting one, right? Because it's. Can be. That's funny. [02:45:10] Speaker B: I don't know that one really cool [02:45:12] Speaker A: can be readily self hosted on a vps so that you don't even need to use the discovery servers that netbird themselves host and ultimately resolves peer to peer, just like tailscale. Okay, but here's the thing. Yeah, Tailscale Netbird. These things are weird, okay? They're like, they're like being tricky. They're using wireguard and discovery servers in different combinations to achieve like connectivity. But they're doing it in a way that is like again it's, it's not normal. These are like advanced new age networking techniques that don't plug into the Internet. They don't like just work with the legacy systems. Okay. The legacy systems are built up around DNS, tcp, ip, DNS and routers. That's sort of like the stack of how things expect to be able to talk to each other. Right. So what we did with Start Tunnel, which doesn't exist by the way. There's nothing like Start Tunnel out there. There is. We just took the concept of a router and virtualized it. It's like, we've had so many people show up in our chats and be like, so start. Why would I use Start Tunnel over tailscale? Or have you guys heard of Netbird? They're doing what you're doing. They're just, it'll be easier for you because they've already built it and you don't have to maintain it. Like, why would you do Start Tunnel when there's netbird? And I take all these seriously and I go do my research and I realize at the end of the day that they're just not doing the same thing at all. Like. Like, Start Tunnel is a simple idea. It's a very, very simple idea. It's not doing anything crazy. It's not doing any New age networking. It literally is just a router. It's just another router. And so it plugs right into the Internet. It does ex. Like, everything just plays nicely with it. You don't need a special app. There's no app to download, there's no account to create. There's no discovery servers, nothing. It's just as though you added another router to your home and now your server can choose which router it wants to use for different purposes. It's simple, right? Like, I love netbird, I love Tailscape, I love what they're doing, I love the projects. I think there's very cool things. But it's like, if your goal is to host things on the Internet in a safe and private way, Start Tunnel crushes these things. It's free, it's open source, it's simple. You get a $4 a month. VPs, install start tunnel in less than three minutes, and you're literally up and running with a virtual router that you can use to obfuscate your home ip. It's that simple. MIT licensed. If you find a way to make it better, or fork it or monetize it, do it. I don't give a fuck. Everything we make is free. As free as it can be. We don't even go the whole GPL bullshit route. You must keep this open source because I'm a statist and I will shoot you if you don't keep it. Open source gpo. Oh, Jesus. It's either free or it's not free, right? Don't tell me it's free and then tell me what I can't do with it. All right, all right. MIT or death. [02:48:34] Speaker B: All right, thank you, man. [02:48:36] Speaker A: Thanks. [02:48:37] Speaker B: Gosh, this. I'm stoked I'm going to be picking your brain again here in just a little bit. In fact, you may hear from me for some other time throughout the day if you're. If you're available. And thank you for coming on as always. I'll probably do, hell, I might do a video or an episode or a guys take or something about this when I really kind of get all this up and running, especially with the router because, you know, I nerd out on that stuff really, really hard. So we will talk about just kudos. Kudos to, to still building and still going and for the things that you have done that make my life a lot easier and solve my problems. I appreciate it, dude. [02:49:23] Speaker A: You're welcome. I'm having a lot of fun doing what we're doing, so I hope I get to keep doing it for a long time. [02:49:30] Speaker B: All right. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Station. Do not forget to check out Matt Hill. Do not forget to check out the new Start OS updates and grab it when it is ready. Or you can go ahead and grab it now and start playing with it. I'll try to have something out and we'll talk about it on the show in the next coming. In the coming episodes when I get mine set up and get to explore it. Check out Start Tunnel as well. I want to hear what other people are using this stuff for because there's just so many possibilities and it's. I can just, I can already hear the fun, crazy setups that you lunatics are working on and I want to find out about them. So this is definitely the age, especially with AI and a lot of tools, the, the flood of tools that we're getting access to. I, I have more things to check out than I can possibly keep up with. So anybody who can send me links or point me towards things that are fascinating or that things that they love or have been really useful to them, especially in the audio knots, please hit me up. I. It helps me filter so much to get stuff through you guys, because there's just a flood. [02:50:41] Speaker A: There's. [02:50:41] Speaker B: It's. There's no other way to keep up with it, honestly, unless you're filtering. Because I just, I just think there's. There's a hundred thousand tools an hour, right? And it's like, okay, well what did somebody else find? Or what some. What does somebody else build? Building that's actually useful to them and that helps save a lot of curation work. So I appreciate it. Guys, also we should have for the audio knots, check out the group on Telegram and or key. We should have a short section that we did with Matt Hill that is exclusive to you guys and it was a really fun and valuable piece of the conversation that I think especially in a time where funding is rough and people are trying to figure out how to build and it's just a messy environment and I think some really good and important lessons in that section that we did exclusive for the audionauts. So thank you guys and I hope, I hope it's helpful and don't forget to check out it. Check it out. It will be in those groups I'm going to try to figure out. This is something I've been putting off for a while to get the private feed on Fountain so that you can listen to it directly in your podcast player. But I've been very lazy. Well, I've just been sidetracked and procrastinating on that side of things in particular. So it is not available yet. You'll just have to get it in the groups. But yeah, with that, don't forget to check out Matt Hill Start nine START os. If you haven't got your node, what are you doing? You need to start 9 node. They're amazing and I will. That should wrap us up. Don't forget to check out my affiliates and discount codes and all those things really help out the show. Free way to to support my work and stuff and follow me on all the platforms, YouTube, Twitter, Noster, all that good stuff and I'll catch you on the next episode of Bitcoin Audible. Until then, everybody, that's our two sets. [02:52:38] Speaker A: Sam.