Shitcoin Insider #009 - Craig Wrong

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by coincide makers of the Cold Card. Don't let your bitcoin get soggy and stale in a hot wallet. Keep your bitcoin fresh in the coldest of cold storage. The cold Card hardware wallet. The Cold Card Mark 4 is what you are looking for. If you want fresh, delicious, crispy bitcoin that is as good as the day you received it. You can go to guy swan.com coldcard for more information. Bad forgeries, fake signatures and lawsuits for everyone. Am I right or am I Craig Wrong? This is shitcoin Insider number nine, Craig Wrong. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Bitcoin maximalists trying to make sense of the sea of shitcoins. [00:00:53] Speaker A: This is Shitcoin Insider. [00:00:58] Speaker C: Foreign. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Welcome to another episode of Shitcoin Insider. My name is Guy Swan and we have with us our good friend the Insider, the dabbler, the purveyor and the destroyer of shitcoins. We also have a lovely guest with us today, someone who has taken it upon himself to dedicate his time to collecting, covering, exploring and gathering all of the forgeries, lies and fumbles of Craig Rong. He does an amazing job and has been quite the resource for myself and I very much appreciate his work and the ability to sit down and have such a lovely, sophisticated and respectful conversation with Arthur Van Pelt and the Insider. So with that, let's delay no longer and get right in to our interview. So. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Oh my God, guys, Shookwin Insider is not dead. We're back into this and we have. Not only is the Insider back, which he was not able to join us, I think, I think the last one we did with was with Corey, which was four months ago maybe. But our insider is back and our good friend Arthur Van Pelt is here to join us who is our regional expert on all things Craig Wrong. And so we are going to be. We're gonna be diving into this and we're just gonna go head first. I know we haven't like really our setup was all just like make sure Keat was working and the mics were working. But Arthur, I want you to introduce yourself and then I want you to tell me what got you into writing all this. I mean you've got like a bunch of articles. You've been, you've been like a major resource for me on just keeping up with everything that's going on with the court cases and all this stuff. I was just curious what, what triggered it, like. [00:03:15] Speaker C: Oh, well, that. Well, first of all, yeah, I'm Arthur Van Pelt. It's my real name. I'M from the Netherlands. I'm 55. Well, no, I just turned 56 in December, so I'm not the youngest anymore. On the other hand, I feel young at heart. So. No, that started actually with Hodlnut. That's it. When he. In 2019 when he was being chased by Craig Wright for label. I was enraged quite a bit when he was. When Craig Wright put $5,000 on his head, I thought, no, I'm gonna get you guy. And yeah, it actually started there. And I, for some reason I'm quite relentless and I keep on going. Yeah, I don't know how that works with me, but I can. No, I have a strong sense for. For injustice to be serious. And actually the story goes back a little bit more because I knew the guy from 2015 already. But after the wire tanker's moto fails and then the signing sessions in another failure on top of it, I was like, now, okay, this is 100. Sure. This guy is certainly not Satoshi Nakamoto. And I did not pay too much attention to him until early 2019 when hold not came on the stage. Well, in a courtroom actually. So yeah, I started writing it and it started slow, kind of under the radar for most. But when I was invited for some virtual seminar event, from there it went much faster. And I love doing research. So I started writing. For some reason, long form is my comfort zone. So I do a lot of deep dives. And by now I have Now I think 25 articles. Yeah, that's it. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I've read. I've gone through like a bunch of them. Some of them I just keep them as references because it's just. It's like so dense like how much you dig into it. It's just like, oh shit, I'll just have this for a link for whenever some poor SAP. [00:05:45] Speaker C: No, no, actually I started. I started with an. A little timeline on a weebly page that was offered to me by an Australian guy. And at some point I did not feel so much at updating it anymore because I felt that most of it was already there. It contains mostly links to articles and tweets and tweet storms that I found. And then when the writing started, I slowly stopped updating that page. I still have it, of course, and it's still a reference page, but I think my medium page is now. My blog is now my most important part next to the tweets. I do a lot of tweets also. [00:06:31] Speaker B: Yeah, Insider, what's up? [00:06:34] Speaker D: I have doing great. I have a slight confession to make. Yeah, I've been. I've been holding this back until the right time. And I think this is it. Since we have Arthur here, suddenly Craig Wright expert, but probably a little bit of satoshi expert. So I may be the creator of bitcoin myself. I might be. I may be Satoshi Nakamoto. So, you know. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Because she has been announced, people. [00:07:07] Speaker C: We got him here. [00:07:09] Speaker D: Yeah. It's my number one proof that Craig's. [00:07:14] Speaker B: Definitely not satoshi, because clearly you are. [00:07:18] Speaker D: Yes, exactly. [00:07:19] Speaker B: I. I mean, hey, it's a hell of a lot better evidence than anything that Craig has proved. [00:07:25] Speaker D: I haven't committed. I mean, you can't. [00:07:28] Speaker B: There's no clear forgery here. [00:07:30] Speaker D: Exactly. I've got a whole lot more evidence that I'm satoshi than Craig. Well, I'm glad to be here, especially with all theories. I've been, I don't want to say involved, but I kept myself abreast of the situation since the, of course, the block wars in 2017 and then again when they had their split with BCH crew. I was in all of the more tight knit dev communities then because I spent a lot of time as one of the only bitcoin maximus, if you want to put that label on me, that used to argue against all the BCH guys in their dev rooms and in their chats. I was that guy that just kind of chased them around everywhere and told them how wrong they were every day. So when they had their. When they had the split to the sv, it was really fun to watch because you had. I mean, these guys are kind of the type that are susceptible to propaganda in the first place. That's why they're there. And you know, most of them are there because of Roger Ver. That's like their little mini God. And then the others, you know, they also worshiped Craig Wright and they kind of worshiped both. And so when they split, it was. It was like. It was like the sheep didn't know which way to go, so they were very confused. [00:08:43] Speaker C: It was so fun. [00:08:44] Speaker D: One of my most favorite things to see. But anyway, so. So I've been keeping up for a while and I'm excited. I've been listening to authors takes on this since pretty much you started tweeting about it. So it's going to be a good pun. [00:08:57] Speaker B: Hell yeah. Hell yeah. It's funny, I. I kind of stepped back a little bit from it after I read Jameson Lopp's piece. Like I wanted to. I kind of had that same motivation as you did, Arthur, is I wanted to Collect everything. Like I, like I wanted to get it all together and, and I hated that Lopp had missed he. I mean he has a great piece actually and incredibly detailed. But I mean I guess it's like two years old now or something. I don't know. It's pretty old. But he had a great collection of the past forgeries. The times that he misspoke and like clearly misspoke in the sense that he was not keeping up his facade. And. And then like as I was going through it, I would argue from time to time with people in BSV and I would show them this stuff and they would come up with the most mind numbingly idiotic excuses for why this didn't matter. Or the 4D chess. He's trying to convince everybody he's not Satoshi and I just lost all of the, all of the motivation. It's like if these are the people I'm trying like everybody who matters like or everybody who can think already knows the truth. Right. So I kind of fell away from it and luckily I have been able to rely on you to keep up with it because there's still a lot happening and poor Hodlnot was damn near left all by himself fighting this thing. [00:10:43] Speaker C: But yeah, is a huge inspiration. I can, I can tell you how this guy is holding on. How he is. I don't know. He is. I mean put yourself in his situation. He's fighting him now for 2019, 2023. Almost four years long. It's costing, including the UK case, it's costing him probably 2 million over. It's crazy how he is. I mean the emotional stress that he is having, the financial stresses he is having, but he keeps going. He keeps picking himself up from the floor when he's down and he keeps on going. It's so it's, it's such an inspiration really. [00:11:26] Speaker B: What's the current state of everything? Like I know one and or two court cases have been settled and I know one of them wasn't Hodl or not. But basically where is the process? Is he done with this thing or is there still just you know, cases in another place? Like what's, what's going on now? [00:11:52] Speaker C: There are several lawsuits going on. It started in 2019 with five libel suits of which he kind of lost or discontinued. Three of them f buterin Adam back and back got his costs paid. Back when Craig didn't want to continue with it anymore. Roger fur he actually lost in the UK and he continued with Peter McCormack and, and Hodel not and both of them are sort of concluded. Hodl not won in Norway because Hnot did an. A bit of a TR trick. Just before he could be served by Craig Wright, he started his own lawsuit in Norway which was a clever trick. And that one concluded in by head September trial. In October there was a verdict that the judge said there is no label. And the judge in Norway also made a few statements that, well, this guy is not Satoshi and he did not provide any evidence of being Satoshi in this case. So it's fair to say that he isn't. That was. Yeah. A bit of an. Yeah. Good thing for the community. [00:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Anything. [00:13:16] Speaker C: Has he won anything? Well, not really, no. I. I summarize it with every case that the opponent showed up, he did not win. But there was one case where the opponent did not show up and that was the COBRA bitcoin case and that was default judgment. And then the judge in England said, okay, COBRA Bitcoin, you have to stop providing the bitcoin white paper on Bitcoin.org and Cobra Bitcoin is the. Is the administrator of that website currently and. But only for the uk so he blocked access to the bitcoin white paper only in the uk. The rest of the world can still pick it up from bitcoin.org but in the UK they can't. Yeah. [00:14:07] Speaker B: So ridiculous. [00:14:08] Speaker C: So it's so ridiculous. And it's. Well, what, what disappoints me in that case is that the judge in England does not do any truth finding about the copyrights. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:20] Speaker C: So everybody can go to a judge in England, tell your friend next door, don't show up, I'm gonna sue you. And then you can win any copyright case in England. It's ridiculous. [00:14:32] Speaker B: That's so the, the legal system is such, such a shit show. And this is a perfect example of the amount of damage you can do. Even if you have no argument, you have no defense for your position, but you can still just go around and just destroy people's lives and put enormous amounts of causes like. Of course, this system only works for the rich. [00:15:00] Speaker C: Oh yeah, yeah. In the liberal cases. Absolutely. And it was not even the first time that Craig Wright did this. He did this also in 2013, late 2013, when he involved that Dave Kleiman into a nonsense story in front of the New South Wales Supreme Court in Australia and claimed 57 million Australian dollars in. In bitcoin intellectual property that he created from thin air. And because there was no opponent with. Because Dave Crimen was dead and he put his sock Puppet on the other side of the lawsuit. And the judge said, oh, I'm fine with it. I'm not going to do any truth finding of this. And yeah, he won. In later years, the ATO burned it down and, and in the climate versus Right case, it was burned down again, of course, but that's another story. But at that moment you can manage to. Yeah. To turn the legal wheels in your. Yeah. [00:16:03] Speaker B: How do you call it out of curiosity? Are you worried? Like, I mean, you've put enormous amount of work on destroying his. [00:16:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I know what you mean. [00:16:16] Speaker B: Proving, disproving his argument and oh, I've. [00:16:21] Speaker C: Been threatened several times even it's not that long ago. Only a few days ago last week, I think even Craig Wright hinted that he would start suing me for fraud. So of course I'm in the picture. I mean I'm, you know, I'm a crazy guy. So. But my, my, I think my, my strength is that I, I source everything. So what they have to do if they want to list all my material, all my writing, all my tweets, it's a massive amount of material. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:54] Speaker C: And they have to explain to the judge was wrong with it and sourced from, quoted from, from other places, lawsuits, news articles and etc. Etc. ATO reports, don't forget them very damning reports from the ATO in around 2014 15. [00:17:15] Speaker B: And then I reports I don't. [00:17:18] Speaker C: ATO is Australian Taxation Office who inquired in 2013, 1415 when he started to use Bitcoin in his fraud. In this case, a tax return fraud. Yeah. Of course there have been moments that I, I mean I never had a sleepless night over it because I know when I'm the truth in the end will always prevail. And what I think I'm doing is bringing the truth in front of people and, and a judge will recognize that in, in the end. But the stress of a lawsuit is, is not something that I would like to have. Of course. On the other hand, I'm seriously not afraid of this guy. If he's coming, let him come because I have so much content against him. I do not even publish everything that I know about him just to have a few things that I can pull from my sleeve when he's trying me. But yeah, the community has been many times calling me all kinds of things threatened to ruin my life. And then even some death threats have reached me, especially in, in the year, I think it was 2019 or 2019 also already when I registered also a copyright claim in America for the Bitcoin white paper. Because when Craig White was doing that in that year, I was like, yeah, I can do that. Also, it doesn't prove anything. And the whole point, the whole coin. GE clan brought it as if, as if now Satoshi has proven himself. I was like, no, that's not true. So, yeah, like I said, I'm. I'm a crazy guy. I even have wrote written letters to his council onto your. Under my own name, telling them that. That I'm hosting the white paper and that, uh, if they want, uh, yeah, if they want to sue me, I'm here. But they never did. They never did. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Out of curiosity, what's your favorite? What's. What's your. What's maybe favorite isn't. What's the most concrete argument, Perspective, plus piece of evidence that says there's no way he is. Satoshi, do you. Do you have one. Do you have like a. Yeah, I. [00:19:49] Speaker C: Certainly have a favorite because I. I still remember that my heart jumped the moment that I figured out something. And if you follow my tweets, you will notice that I tweet. I tweeted a few times a year. My favorite. And it's also in my latest article. A week about a week ago, I. I did an highly anticipated. Lot of positive feedback about it was great. And that anecdote is in there also. That happened in 2019. It was one of the first pieces of research that I had been doing when I met this Australian guy who offered me the weebly page. We decided to also do our own research. Not research on existing research, but also adding our own research on top of it. And we came across a blog post of Craig Wright on his personal blog. And he explained about the early days of bitcoin and one of the lies he told. Several lies in that article, excuse me, but one of them was about his explanation how Genesis block and block one are six days apart from each other. Beautiful story. As we all know, Genesis block was formed on January 3rd of 2009 and block one was only formed at January 9th. So there were six days in between. And what happened in those six days? So Craig Wright had his own explanation. He said, yeah, on January 3rd, my computers, his Bitcoin network of 60, 70 computers, which never existed. Other research, but Satoshi did it with one, maybe two, but most likely just one laptop. He. Hold on. I mean, he kept the bitcoin network alive. Another story. But his explanation for those six days was on the January 3rd, his computer network went down because it was installing a Microsoft update which he called Microsoft Patch Tuesday. And Microsoft Patch Tuesday is, well, for the insiders and known event which happens every now and then, where Microsoft is pushing all the security updates and other updates to the, to the whole world actually. And it only happens on one day in the month. Well, and Craig said on January 3rd, I had to accept that update and my computers went down and updating and they came, they didn't come back and I had to recreate and network and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it took six days and only I could continue with the bitcoin network on January 9th. Oh yeah, sounds sensible. I mean, makes sense. I mean, Microsoft Patch Tuesday, if you are into it, which I am, my background is in it for several decades, then you know about Microsoft Patch Tuesday. But if you start looking into on which dates are actually those Microsoft Patch Tuesday rollouts of Microsoft, you will learn that it is only on the second, second Tuesday of each month. So it's only happening 12 times a year on the second Tuesday of each month. And then you go to the calendar and you look at what is the second Tuesday in January 2009. It's actually the 13th, not the third, but the 13th. So you cannot. It's crazy. [00:23:35] Speaker B: It take him six days to do the update that happened. [00:23:39] Speaker C: No, no, Microsoft, Microsoft released the updates on January 13th. [00:23:47] Speaker B: No, no, I know, I'm joking. I'm. I'm saying is his excuse, like, I mean he says that, okay, he had a Microsoft update, so it like took him six days. I don't know. That just seems like to get his 60 computers. Like why, why do you make up something that's so exaggerated? You know, it's like anybody, any genuine person who is making a project or doing something is just gonna be running it on their own computer and they're just gonna boot it up and they're gonna test it. And it's like Craig's like just made up crap always has to be the most insane story ever. I had a super computer in a 60 computer network and I had a update push it just. God, it just screams. [00:24:42] Speaker C: And then, and then he makes a date mistake and he. If you look into his, his, his claims, his, his things that he is putting on paper or, or writing on his blog or telling people in, in his videos. It makes sense to the gullible mind. But when you look a bit further and you start researching a bit on dates and details, then it all falls apart very hard. [00:25:10] Speaker B: So many date forgeries, like many. It's like, it's basically like the thing that he just keeps forging over and over again, it's trying to figure out. I mean, I guess that's the point, right? [00:25:22] Speaker C: We know about hundreds of forgeries by now. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah. What were you about to say, Insider? [00:25:29] Speaker D: Oh, do you remember Author, the time where he. I think it was a. It was one of the fake key signings that he did. I'm not exactly. I don't remember the details, but I remember that when it was proven that it was impossible, I think again because of the software date, he did another blog post to address the. To say that it wasn't debunked. But then his second blog post about how his first one wasn't actually debunked was also debunked because it also used. He also made another mistake in that one. I can't. I'm looking for it now on the Cult of Craig site and I can't. Can't find this one. But I remember it because it was. That was always my favorite proof. Getting debunked and then coming back and trying to defend it and then having that debunked again. [00:26:14] Speaker B: It's just like, like, just explicitly. [00:26:18] Speaker C: It was, it was about this, about the signing. You say insider. [00:26:20] Speaker D: It was a signing? I think so, but I'm not sure if it was the signing, but it was the. It was a time where he showed mathematical proof of a signature. And it could have been PGP or, or, or a block key. I do not remember the specifics. Hoping that you'd remember from this. It was shown that he was, you know, he used a software that didn't exist, a version that didn't exist at the time when, when the signing was supposed to have taken place was. [00:26:44] Speaker B: And that's the one that. Because there was. There was one sick quote, unquote signature posted with a message that was supposed to. Was implied that this was a signature of that message with Satoshi's keys. And you could see that it was actually with Satoshi's keys. But it had nothing to do with the message that he posted. And if you went looking, it was actually just something that he pulled off the blockchain. So it was just. [00:27:11] Speaker D: I remember he used like a Genesis block hash or something. He used like the hash to pretend like the hash was the signature. And it kind of tricked some people at first because they would pull the hashtag and they'd see that it was really the hash, the actual hash, and they'd. Oh, it's. [00:27:24] Speaker B: It was valid, but it was just publicly available. It had nothing to do. Satoshi signed a different thing. Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker C: That probably refers to the 2016 signing proof that when he did this Chartre blog post in, on May 2nd in 2016, that's what it reminds me of. That is probably what you are referring to, insider or not. [00:27:47] Speaker D: It probably is. That sounds about the right time frame and they're just one after. But another huge thing to me was all the plagiarism. Just entire things that are plagiarized. You know, six, seven, eight pages of just exact word for word plagiarized documents. If you wanted to believe somebody was telling you the truth about a controversial thing like a major claim and you already got a lot of dubious evidence that seems to be debunked left and right. And he's also then submitting papers to universities or blog posts that are one to one copies of other people's work. I mean irrefutably. I don't know what it takes for somebody to think, you know what. And I got to, I still talk to some BSV guys, they'll tell me, yeah, okay, I admit, you know, I've talked to some of these guys for years and they used to defend everything he said. But especially after January 2020 when he was, that was when he was supposed to actually he told all those fans and they believed him. And if you would talk to a BSV guy Anytime before January 2020, they'll tell you just wait until January 2020. [00:28:54] Speaker C: And you'll see because the bonded courier will come. [00:28:58] Speaker D: Oh yeah, that's when he's gonna sign. I mean this is almost like some of those old religious scams that where they said like, yeah, that's why I. [00:29:07] Speaker C: Call it sometimes a doomsday culture. That whole environment and usually those cults. [00:29:13] Speaker D: Are over once the event like comes to pass and they see didn't happen. But here, like, I don't know, don't. [00:29:22] Speaker C: Don'T, don't make any mistake, Insider. You have cults that still continue after failed claims and failed predictions because they will come up with a new prediction and it's a new timeline for a bit for some reason and they will always find an excuse. And Craig Wright, he has a religious background as you probably know. He will come up with a new excuse and then quickly the cult members will forget about the old failure and will only look at the new excuse. Sorry, the new prediction. And until that fails also. But somehow he managed to keep to keep the cult for a bit together and only. Yeah, every now and then you see people drop off but there's still an hardcore membership remaining. And by the way, when you just said about plagiarism, that quickly reminded me of something. When he started his, his, his, his, he was not even pretending to be Satoshi Nakamoto in 2013. That started only in 2014, I don't forget. But in 2013, he started to take bitcoin addresses from the bitcoin rich contains ten thousands and hundred thousands of bitcoin. And he claimed in front of the Australian Taxation Office. That's mine. I own that. Well, Ajo asked him many times to. To sign one of those addresses because they were not stupid either, of course. And that never happens in. In. Until he fled Australia in late 2015, he had numerous requests for. For many of those addresses. Pre signed, never happened. Always lame excuses to. But talking about plagiarism in 2013, he was not pretending to be satoshi yet, but he was pretending to have knowledge of bitcoin. In one of the things that he did, I found an email where he literally copied a part from the bitcoin wiki from 2012 in an email and pretended that he wrote it. And I found wiki that was actually part of the bitcoin wiki in 2012. And that is how the guy rolls, man. [00:31:49] Speaker B: You know, even better than the one. [00:31:53] Speaker D: That is like, what you do if you were really dumb and you just said, let me just go to the bitcoin wiki and paste some information there and sound smart. [00:32:02] Speaker C: I mean, yeah, I think it was written by Mike. By Mike Hearn, if I remember. Well, it was about smart contracts or something. And it was written by Mike Hearn in 2012. He took it. He literally copied it word by word, sentence by sentence, and he put it in an email and pretended, I think it was in front of the ato, that, hey, I'm a clever guy. I know about bitcoin. [00:32:28] Speaker B: It's funny how quickly he was basically just proven. Complete nonsense. Or just the fact that he had absolutely zero evidence for his claim almost immediately when he showed up on the scene, you know, and I kind of feel bad for Gavin Andreessen because he seems like a genuine mellow guy who just got screwed. I mean, he seems really naive. [00:32:56] Speaker A: He does. [00:32:57] Speaker B: He always did to me. And, you know, I was. I was there. So I was like. It was like within an hour of all of this happening that I was like, oh, my God, Satoshi is back. What the is going on? Like, and I'm investigating and all this. And. And then immediately, immediately I didn't have nearly the understanding then that I do now, but I understood the basics. I Understood the fundamentals of how a lot of these things work. I could check a signature and immediately he shows this supposed signature to Gavin on a, on his computer that he brought, shows it to Gavin, Gavin is convinced and then they make the public statement and then everybody says there is. [00:33:43] Speaker C: A little nuance in that, in that story. When the signing happened, it was first shown indeed on Craig's computer. And then Gavin requested that the second checkup of the signature should be done on his computer and Craig refused. And it ended up that they bought an out of the box laptop in a shop nearby and then they installed day Craig installed his own stuff and he took control of that computer for several hours. I mean you have to think about it. You open a box, you install the operating system Windows. I think this was a Windows computer that they bought. And the only thing that you have to do is download the Electrum wallet and open it and yeah, check the signing. I mean verify the signature. It took I think three to four hours. And everybody is surprised about that little fact already. It already smells like, like fraud going on in the background. And we are quite sure that happened because in the meantime we also figured out not even me, but I have of course a few handfuls of friends in the debunk community that I'm active in and there are also several very technical people and they know how to write even better code than I do. So they figured out that the electron bullet can be hacked with one or two lines of code and you can just replace anything in what is shown in the screen and it will always say verify. And we think that the trick that he has been using with Gavin Anderson, he put his name or CSW he put at the end of the text and I think they built in, he built in again a little. Two, two lines of code. Craig cannot code, but he can code a little. And this is something that even he is, he can even do this. So this type of middle in the man in the middle attack, just check in the text of the. Of the message is there csw? Yes. Okay, then tell Electrum to say verify, verified. And that is along those lines something has happened along those lines we are pretty sure. The thing with Gavin, of course he is a bit naive, but also he has no backbone and he is also covered under a non disclosure agreement. So I can blame him a bit. And also maybe not everything because when you're under an NDA and are afraid of getting thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands in penalties, when you tell things that you're not Supposed to tell according to NDA then of course he is in a bit of a difficult situation. I can understand. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Craig made him sign an NDA that was. [00:36:48] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. But you will find the NDAs of, of the people, John Matonis, Gavin Anderson, they have all public in, in. In the lawsuits that we have seen over the past few years. [00:37:04] Speaker B: Man, wow. [00:37:06] Speaker D: Author. Do you think that Calvin Ayers is complicit in this or do you think he's still just a rich guy that's being fooled by a fake satoshi? [00:37:20] Speaker C: It's probably not that long ago. I read an piece of, I think it was from Reddit and that guy wrote a nice summary of what he thought has happened and it came very close to what I have been thinking also for a long while already in 2015 when Kelvin came on the stage to help Craig in Australia. Because at that moment Craig went into a difficult situation. He had been inquired by the ATO for several years already. They had, they had been paying him millions in tax returns and they found out most or all of them are pretty fraudulent and they should be paid back and then including penalties. So at that moment in around June 2015 he had to pay back, if I remember well, 5 million or 7 million and the 2 million difference I think was the penalty or it was 3 million and 2 million penalty or something like that. Like that. But anyway, he did not have that money at that moment and he was shopping around for sponsorships for that type of money. He even spoke to Roger Fur in that time. He also tried to take a loan from Roger Fur in 2015. It's unknown if, if he got that loan, probably not because it ended up that Calvin ay was going to sponsor him. One of his friends at that moment, Greg's friends, Stephen Matthews and Robert McGregor, they contacted Calvin Air because he's the man with the money. And Calvin Air was being fooled into a bailout for around 15 million. He had to pay his lawyers, he had to pay this penalty from the ATO and they had to move him to London. And so all that stuff costed at that moment around 15 million. One of the things that Craig did, here we go, a forgery. He created a forgery of a paper wallet from the one fix address. And I will tell you the one fixed story in a bit. But that paper wallet forgery was not being checked because nobody had any. It had to be checked by Stephen Matthews, the guy that we know now from, from town mostly, I think that you know him. And that paper wallet forgery was the one fixed address contained 80,000 bitcoins and at that moment it had a value of roughly 20 million. So he used that as a collateral for this loan. But the one fixed address did not belong to Craig. The one fixed address was a hack from Mount Gox in 2011in March, and he picked up that as one of the addresses on, on the rich list. Oh, I own that. He never owned it and he never will anyway, so we know already that he has been defrauding Calvin already back in 2015. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to believe that Calvin, I mean, he might be stupid, but he is not that stupid. I mean, he's supposed to be pretty rich. He owns hundreds of millions and at some point in his career, he was even a billionaire. He owned more than 1 billion in in assets and money. And he spends now hundreds of millions in BSV and also tens of millions in he's putting into this Craig Wright guy because he's sponsoring all his lawsuits and they are costing tens of millions by now. It is for me inconceivable to think that he is not aware that he has been creating so many forgeries, he has been telling so many lies. He should have his people around him, his counsel, his lawyers, his advisors, his financial people, his CTO and whatever. They should inform Calvin. We are not so sure if you're doing the right thing here, putting all that money in that con man. So he might be complicit also, but it's hard to tell. He seems bamboozled from here to Tokyo and back. So I don't know. [00:41:53] Speaker B: I have a hard time trying to figure out what he's getting out of it. Like every, all of the supposed benefits, the, the. Okay, it seems like failed attempts to scam and get money out of it. And I can't. I'm surprised that they keep trying, you know, like, like they've patented, they've done like hundreds of patents or something on like a whole bunch of nonsense. And some of it, like a ton of it is like plagiarized. Like he's just grabbed it from other things and then filed for a patent. And you know, most like patent officences are going to check a whole bunch of stuff like it, it's incredible. They're just going to overwhelm the system much like they did with the copyright. Right. [00:42:36] Speaker C: They do understand that correctly, by the way. So he, he managed to have a few patent lawyers around him that, that write and rewrite his stuff for a bit so it, it slips through. The basis of, of the patent offices worldwide. On the other hand, several industry experts have been examining those patents on the whole and they call it garbage patterns. They, they, they, nobody is ever referen managed to sell any of them. They never license any of them. And they have, they have been judged with an technical relevance of 0.00. Yeah, basically nothing, no technical relevance at all in the cryptocurrency industry. So it will be. [00:43:28] Speaker B: I remember reading a breakdown. Yeah, I guess it wasn't yours. I'm not 100% sure. I didn't find it in my links, but I remember someone doing an investigation of some sort into a lot of the patents, particularly when Craig was leaning on that a lot publicly, just saying like, I've got 140 patents, blah, blah. And they were like, all right, so let's look at them. And unfortunately I don't have like the explicit details, but that I remembered that being a large part of the impression I received. [00:43:59] Speaker C: But I'm opposing one, one patent with, with a patent lawyer. [00:44:04] Speaker B: Oh really? Oh, that's. [00:44:06] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, we're trying to get one kicked from, from his list. That's funny because there is a patent with, with a, well, pretty massive flaw. And that can be blamed on Craig's patent lawyers who are just as incompetent as Craig Wright himself is. And I wouldn't be able to figure that out. So I mean, I'm not that. It's not my comfort zone, the patents themselves, but again, I have a little community around me with people who are specialized in all kinds of fields and sometimes they pass me just a tip and sometimes they just ask me, join me for, for something like this. And this was a patent lawyer, David Pierce, and he, he asked me, shall we put some effort into getting one of those patents kicked from, from that list just to show how stupid they are, how stupid his patent lawyers are. And just, just to make a point. I said, yeah, why not? And we did a little bit of a crowdfunding because it's not cheap to do something like this. You have to oppose, you have to pay 850, 850 Euro to start with to be able to that the, that those people start listening to you and approve your opposition. And which they did in the end because clearly we made a good point there. But it's a long trajectory that will take easily one and a half to two years before we hear the results of that, because they take three months for Greg Wright to answer and then, and then we have to answer in another three to six months. And so it takes a long time. Time, including probably a live hearing and. Etc. So it's. It's costly and lengthy procedure. But yeah, we got €2,000 in a crowdfunding to get this started, which is pretty cool. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Nice, Nice. There's. And tell me, tell me if there's something explicitly wrong or misunderstood in this process, because as I've read through a lot of this, one of the craziest order of events, so to speak, outside of just the explicit forgeries, which we can get into some of the explicit. I don't know, I mean, I guess there's probably a lot of listeners that don't know about a lot of this for a lot of the forgeries, but we'll get to that in a minute. We'll get that in a minute. But the signature issues is simply how much his story has changed about the ownership of the keys. Like, remember, all of this started. And again, basically within a day of Craig Wrong and announcing that he was Satoshi, there were enough holes poked in it that I was like, okay, this guy's not Satoshi. This is ridiculous. And I thought that was going to be the end of it. I was like, well, he's provided nothing. And then he explicitly said he was going to provide something publicly and, like, he was going to sign and all of this stuff. [00:47:13] Speaker C: Stuff. [00:47:14] Speaker B: Because he'd already done it. Right. What did he sign? He signed proving that he had Satoshi's keys for Satoshi's known balances of Satoshi's bitcoin. This is supposedly what he gave to Gavin. [00:47:32] Speaker C: But yeah, now we're talking 2016 again. [00:47:35] Speaker B: Yeah, but now that's not the story he had sent me. [00:47:39] Speaker C: Like, sorry. [00:47:41] Speaker B: Oh, it's like. But the story has completely changed over the process after he kind of. After he said he would give it publicly and then backed out and basically said, I can't do this anymore. I'm victim. Everybody's. Too much pressure. I'm never going to be on TV and I'm never going to do an interview again. And all this stuff. [00:48:00] Speaker C: Fake suicide attempt. [00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah, just. Yeah, just all that mess. And then walked away. Walked away. He backed down from all of his obligations and then just kept doing all the things that he kept doing without again ever providing a signature. Now supposedly he can't provide a signature for anything because it's in a tulip trust. And, like, he doesn't have the key. Like, his story's totally different from everything he said he explicitly had. That was the reason we were supposed to believe he was satoshi to begin with. So he's. His argument today says that everything that he did to announce that he was satoshi was. Was nonsense because he says he does doesn't and never had it that it's a completely different setup. Now do you know what the current state of the Tulip Tulip Trust is? And the entry like the spider web of crap that he's excused. [00:49:00] Speaker C: No, the thing is, the funny thing is the Turo twist is. Is indeed one of those Potemkin villages that he set up in his convoluted stories. But it actually dates back to 2014 already late 2014 in October, when the ATO started putting pressure on him. Either do a signing or show us the the shows the min money. Then he had to come up with yeah, he had to tell the ATO that he brought his assets, his bitcoin assets abroad and or overseas as he called it, in Australia. And in October 2007, sorry, 2014, he bought an empty company on the Seychelles called Tulip Trading. He mixed that company with another company, right, International Investments. It was another company that he bought in 2009 already also on the Seychelle. He. He made them in a joint venture something and in some fake backdated contracts that he created 2014, but backdated to I think 2011 or 12. He said that is where my assets are that I mind. So Satoshi, however, this story never came up properly, only in. In. Well, in a kind of a mythical atmosphere in 2015 and 6. 2015, not yet, I think 2016 more or less, because that is where he had to provide information about the Tulip Trust to Stephen Matthews, Kelvin Air, etc, because they. They needed to be convinced that he was able to sign. And then he came up with lame excuses that his Tulip Trust was holding the keys and he had to ask permission and he had to get to trustees, work together and give him the keys and etc. Etc. Which happened according Craig, it never happened. There are no whatever tune of trust. But anyway. And then over the years the story only came out because of the Kleiman vs. Wright case because then the forgeries that he created in 2014 backdated to 2011 and 12 and a new forgery was created in 2019 which he backdated to 2017. And so there was a tune of trust number three contract and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's a long convoluted story. And the latest thing is is that he stomped on the hard drive where the keys are on so he cannot access the keys anymore because he stomps on the hard drive with the keys. [00:51:59] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:52:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:02] Speaker D: At this point, who is even the target audience for these lies? Because, no, everybody that's hearing his new stories. I mean, we already know obviously that he's lying by now. And his followers, they know that. They'll even tell you if you try to argue with a BSV guy today because they still exist. And you say, well, you know Craig's lying. They'll say, well, I know he lies, but he's still satoshi. He knows a lot about. [00:52:24] Speaker C: Because he has to hide his unfalsifiable. He never wanted to come out anyway. And so it makes sense that he is doing this. [00:52:31] Speaker B: It's the definition of unfalsifiable. Is that the reason they know he's satoshi is because he provided evidence that he is satoshi when it's absolute proof that all of his evidence is nonsense that he's provided. The only valid signature in the entire Craig Wrong story is one where he claimed to own a certain amount of bitcoin in a certain address, and then the actual owner showed up and posted publicly with a signed message that, no, you don't own this address. I own this address, even though it hadn't moved in, like, 11 years. So that's the only valid signature in the whole thing, is that he lied about owning an address of a person who's still alive and was able to read about it, find out about it, and signed and proved that it wasn't his. [00:53:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:20] Speaker B: So, yeah, all that. All that aside, when you. When you point this out, some will even recognize. They will even say, yes, there are all of these forgeries. Yes, these are fake signatures, but somehow this is evidence that he is satoshi because now he wants people to not believe he is satoshi. It's the definition of unfalsifiable nonsense. Is that the evidence that he is lying is evidence that he is satoshi. Because if he is satoshi, he doesn't want anybody to know that he's satoshi, even though he's going around saying over and over and over again, I am satoshi. And publicly saying he's satoshi and trying to get loans and packs, patents and copyrights based on him being satoshi. Like, it's such a combo, like, contradiction within minutes. Within minutes that just flows out of his mouth. Like he just can't shut himself up and say anything that makes sense. [00:54:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:54:21] Speaker C: True. [00:54:21] Speaker B: Incredible. It's incredible. It. The fact that this has gone on as long as it has is entertaining. [00:54:29] Speaker C: It's mind boggling. [00:54:31] Speaker B: Entertaining. It is entertaining. [00:54:33] Speaker C: It's very 2020 mind boggling because what, what I mean, when you think of it, he committed a pretty massive fraud in Australia in 20131415 when he introduced Bitcoin as a tool to scam. The ATO for this podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up on business.