Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Somebody who doesn't get this, I try to, you know, tell this, like, my sister in law uses it with me. She's part of the business. I get all the people that I'm working on the business with and they're all like, oh, yeah, cool, it works. But I'm constantly just fascinated. My mind is blown all of the time because it makes no sense that this works.
[00:00:29] What is up, guys? Welcome back to the pair report. We have got a really. We've actually got a lot to catch up on. I've been a little. I've had a bit of a gap here. Lots of things have been going on in the background, and I really wanted to have something to announce on this episode, but I don't. So I was like, okay, I just need to get it out because there's a lot of things that we need to cover before I have, before I get to share what I want to share, hopefully get to show you guys something that we've been working on for a really long time now seems like forever, but there's been a lot of updates and especially a number of the tools that we've talked about on the show. And I wanted to cover how progress has been happening. And because there have also been a lot of improvements, it seems to pair runtime, which is the environment that we are building these apps in. So if you're new to this show, I am Guy Swan, I'm your host. I'm the guy who's read more about bitcoin than anybody else. You know, you probably know me from bitcoin Audible, but I have started this show in order to explore. I feel like there is a resurgence, there is a new life being breathed into the decentralized and peer to peer ecosystem, and one of the most powerful tools. We do talk about NaSTR on this show as well, but it is more specifically focused on directly peer to peer. And there's a reason which we will get to in a future episode. Why nostra is also a part of this discussion. But this is really about the tools and the technology that are enabled by the hole punch and pear stack. This is the technology and the new platform. Well, it's hard to call it a platform because it's not a platform, but a new node JS type environment built entirely peer to peer from the ground up. Even the delivery of the application itself, which is something that I just demonstrated actually, in devs who can't code episode five, which I'll have a link to that episode. And if you just want to see what I'm referring to in regards to the pair stack tooling and how it runs in pair runtime. You can just kind of skip to the end if you're not interested in watching me build this thing with AI in like a 40 minutes episode. But I think seeing in that episode the fact that with AI I built inside with the pair runtime standard app that you do just when you start an application start building a new application with pair runtime in 40 minutes. I built a rudimentary app that accomplishes a single function with the intent of expanding a bunch of different functions but built my user interface and the basic concept of the application and then delivered it from my MacBook and ran it on my Linux machine which did not have to be on local network. I could have been anywhere. I could have delivered it to my brother or any of the other people that I'm working with and they could have run it exactly the same. And I ran it on my Linux machine within moments, within literal 1020 seconds of a couple of commands and then booted it up. And I did the exact same. I ran that exact same application on my Linux machine and all I did was share a key and it was entirely peer to peer. So the first thing I want to cover today is actually just updates on a lot of applications that we've already talked about with wholesale, with Keat and these things that are being built and more specifically some new ways that I'm actually making use of them and some news on some things that are happening on the back end which I hope to be able to share concrete announcements on very soon. So let's go ahead and dig in.
[00:04:23] So first things first, you can leave rooms in keyed. I know it seems like that went on for months. I don't know how long it was. I can't tell you how many times I got the question. I dude, a guy I can't seem to leave a room I've joined and I can't get out.
[00:04:45] I can't get out of here. I can't leave. As I understand it there was some sort of key magic and hyper core adjustment to the ledger. Something that they had to do and it was just a really, really big pain in the butt. But it is back. You can finally leave the rooms that you don't want to be in anymore.
[00:05:19] So that's fantastic news if you hadn't heard. There's a lot of other great improvements just as far as, I mean there's been a lot of little bug fixes. There was another key based thing that they were having trouble with admins in rooms. If you've seen that message or had seen that message that says make sure you ping an admin that because they are, you know, indexing the room and then the admin is like right there, but it's still, the message is still showing up. Or in my case I was the admin of the room and the message was still showing up. Well they sorted that out too. I still have gotten the message a couple of times. Like I think I'll have to update the room at some point or like, like hand over the admin key. But right now you can just hide the message and it's like not in the way, it doesn't really matter. And everything's been working great. I think even in the case of like the admin not being around there was like maybe just like a delay or, I don't know, I never noticed any difference. So I have no idea what the actual consequence of not having the admin around is because it seems like everything works even though, you know, it's peer to peer and blind forwarded and all that stuff.
[00:06:27] But regardless, that problem is at least no longer a problem anymore. For all of you Linux fans out there. There is now a snap at the, I guess at the snap store or Snapcraft. I don't, I don't know. I'm not a snap user. I like app images specifically. So if you're a SN, if you're a snappy person, well you have a snap now for Keaton so you can install it easier. I know Linux has like 50 standards for how to deliver an application but now you have one for Keith if you're a snap kind of person now another one that has had a massive impact on how I use it. Now for those of you who know, I spend the overwhelming majority of my chatting time online in Keat. Right behind that is noster and then probably third or fourth in line. Third in line is probably telegram still and then fourth in line is Twitter. But I overwhelmingly do most of my stuff in Keith these days. But because I have like 90 rooms which hopefully is pared down a little bit because since we got the leave room button back, but because I have so many rooms. When search was taking a while to search through the rooms, that had been a massive friction on my use of keat and I was still able to basically navigate. Like it didn't stop me from using Keat as my main application for day to day work and my business and everything that we do with our team.
[00:08:02] Keat was still my dominant source of communication.
[00:08:07] But holy crap, when you type something in and it takes like 7 seconds to come up, that is a big delay when you're in the middle of something.
[00:08:18] And we are back to instant, like straight up instant search. Now, if you have not updated yet, it will probably not happen. The first time, what I had to do to kick it in, I outdated and then rebooted the app. And then when I did my first search, it took. It seemed like it took about the same amount of time that it usually takes and I was very disappointed. But then the very next thing that I searched, it came up instantly and every search since then has been instant. So something about the first time that you search after updating the app basically kicks it into gear. And also, as I understand it, this doesn't actually have anything to do with the rocks DB, like the database upgrade in the background. That's actually still a little bit down the road. I think they're going to be. Math has said a couple of different times that they're going to be releasing a private beta of the rocks DB upgrade. Since this is kind of a system wide, this is everything. This goes back to all the stuff in hypercore and hyperdrive that will allow it to. If I'm not mistaken, math said it was an explicit, like, ten x improvement in scale and speed of everything. And this is not just a keat thing, this is a literal. The entire pair stack is being upgraded to this. And so this rocks DB upgrade is coming, but that is not what this does. The search has nothing to do with it. So, yeah, even though this is a lot faster, we've still not got the major like, fundamental upgrade that they've been talking about in regards to that. This appears to be something with just caching the way that it's just managing a separate index or whatever to search through. And holy crap, I cannot believe what a relief it is like to just be able to.
[00:10:14] It was a weight.
[00:10:16] It was a weight on me and I just.
[00:10:25] It's really been great.
[00:10:28] Things have improved so much. So search in keat is good and speedy like it ought to be. Replies. We have replies now in the conversation, so for. I can't tell you how many times replies. Win replies. Win replies. We're gonna have replies. We're gonna have replies soon, right, math, what about those replies? I don't know how many times that question was asked. That's been going on for ages, it seems like. But they are here, they have replies and they work great. It's basically the manual process of just being able to quote things. But it's really nice to have it as an official tool now. Also pinned messages, that's also a really big one for like my group, like in the audio knots and stuff. I pinned messages a lot in telegram and it's one thing that I've always been kind of sad about in Keat is that I just couldn't pin a message and make it available to people to go up and see what the message is and have all that good stuff. But it is out now. It's not rolled out to all rooms right now. It's only rolled out to new rooms. So if you create a new room you have pinned messages. But apparently one of the updates coming very, very soon is going to open it up to all of the old rooms. And this is the exact same thing that's happened with a number of updates recently. So if youve been hanging out on keep for a while, you know that this has kind of been the processes, update it with new things to kind of make sure its completely stable and then go through the process of like re indexing or rebuilding all the other rooms to make the new function a possibility. So there will be pin messages in all rooms pretty like really soon in the next couple of versions as I understand it.
[00:12:07] And another really big one for Keat. That has been a huge thing because when I first started using Keat, one of my favorite things about it was that it was by far the easiest way to get files, a quick like one off file from my Linux machine to my Mac or vice versa, or from my phone to my Mac to my Linux, whatever. Like I could just drop it into one of my own, like one of my personal chats, just like by myself or with my brother, and then go to any of my other devices and easily download it for a project. And this was a huge thing that I used quite often. It was by far and away the dominant way that I was moving simple things back and forth. Not whole folders with tons of stuff but a quick image or being able to edit something on my Linux machine or vice versa, et cetera. But after Keat got really big, after I was using, I had a ton of rooms and a ton of stuff going on. Or actually maybe it's just because it might not have had anything to do with that, because none of the rooms were working any less. I think it was just something to do with all of the other improvements and they had not really dealt with or done anything for the file stuff. And they have finally made some very significant improvements to the operation of downloading files. They have a simple manager. They have now download progress. When you were specifically downloading on one of your devices, I don't know what they did or if this is even my imagination, but it seems way, way faster now than it was.
[00:13:44] But it all just, the, the UX around it is just fantastic. And I have gone back. Even though I had that, it never really stopped, honestly. I was still just using Keat all of the time between my devices. But I'm. I've kind of doubled down on it because the new operation and how smooth it is with the new file downloader thing, just, honestly, it just makes, it, makes it fantastic for the job. And actually, in that same vein, they apparently have.
[00:14:12] I think it was. Sasha posted about this and was asking to get feedback and get a thumbs up based on how well this was working. But they published a video in the Keaton broadcast room. They've been publishing a lot of videos, but there is now, like a blind forwarding or a. A caching system for media specifically that is shared inside the rooms. And so that has actually been way more responsive to the point that I didn't even realize it for a while until it just hit me that I hadn't had a problem. It's one of those things that you only notice it when it doesn't work. And when it does work, it's just something that you don't think about at all. I always liken it to really good editing with a film is that if you're a brilliant editor, nobody's even gonna know you had a job. They're not gonna get why you're paid or why you got an Oscar. Only somebody who knows the difficulty of editing. And even then, when you get into a story, it's just invisible. You're not watching the editing, you're not watching the production of a film or the process that the film has made. You are listening to, you're experiencing a story. And a similar vein is that when all the stuff is just working in Keat, you don't think about it, you're not going, oh, great. The image showed up again very quickly. Even though this is entirely peer to peer and entirely cryptid, and there are no servers, this exists only and completely in a swarm of people who cannot be banned. I cannot be censored because it is just our devices, and yet everything just works. Nobody's thinking that. It's just that the images come up, but it's pretty amazing that, that still, I still. I've been using this for like a year and a half or something. Somebody who doesn't get this, I try to, you know, tell this, like, my sister in law uses it with me. She's part of the business. I get all the people that I'm working on the business with and they're all like, oh, yeah, cool, it works. But I'm constantly just fascinated. My mind is blown all of the time because it makes no sense that this works. For as long as I have worked with peer to peer tech and tools and downloaded a new thing for ipfs and tried to make all of this stuff work and use it for everything, I have never been happy. I've never been happy with the way that it works. I've used it all, I've done it, but it's. It's all been like kind of a begrudging. I want it to be peer to peer and I love what I can get out of this, but it is still just not there. I would always have to caveat when I had somebody come on that like, oh, well, it kind of sucks and this is a horrible headache and you're going to have to learn a whole bunch of things in order to make it work, but you should use it anyway. But I've brought numerous people that I work with onto Keat and nobody thinks about it at all. In fact, we were having problems with a video, a video call in Jitsy the other day with, I think there were four of us and one of the connections was, like, kind of iffy. And we jumped over to Keith and it actually worked a lot better. I mean, we still. It was still just awful Internet connection, but we actually had. It was not going to work in Jitsy. It was just not going to work at all. We were not going to be able to have our meeting, but we had it perfectly fine over Keith. There were just a couple of times where it, like, hiccuped and took a second to connect, but Keith saved it because being entirely peer to peer, the connection was just good. It was just good. And I've had the exact same experience with my brother. We were, which. This is weird. This doesn't even make sense, actually. I don't quite understand why this worked, but we were having trouble with a cell phone conversation and he could not get signal properly and we were just like, this sucks. What is. What is happening? Let's try Keaton. He was like. He was driving out somewhere, like, he was. His signal was explicitly just not good. But we. We had our conversation on Keaton. We just, you know, no video. We just did an audio call over Keith and it worked. It works. I don't think. I don't remember any hiccup or any sort of a problem. And we were having, like, we were on struggle bus with cellular, which does not make sense to me. Like, I don't know if it was just. It cleared up when we started having the key conversation, but that's happened a couple of times. And even though I know that peer to peer is just genuinely a really good connection and you're going to get maximum that you can get out of both devices, that still just seems, I don't know, somehow that I'm having a hard time squaring that circle that just because we switched to Keat, it worked that much better.
[00:18:55] But I have to say it's happened many, many times now. So it seems also unlikely that it is purely a coincidence. All right, so that covers most of what has been going on with Keith and if you have not tried it out, you can join my. I have a paralobby where people can jump in and just hang out and get a feel for it. I'm usually in there answering questions. It's been a little bit quiet recently just because I think everybody just bounced around to other rooms. But it's a really good place to get started. And then there's the paraportal room, which you can get the link in the pear lobby and that just gives you links to all sorts of rooms. So if you just want to explore, look at a bunch of rooms that are available, hang out, talk to people. It's a great way to. I'll have the link in the show notes. That's the pair portal broadcast room. But if you specifically want to get access to guys pear lobby, feel free to hit me up. Hit me up on Nastir, on Twitter, telegram, wherever, and I will send you a invite key so that you can just join now wholesale. I've been talking about this a lot. I am an avid user of wholesale and super sue, the developer, the main guy who has been building and putting all this stuff together has been absolutely killing it. I'm super stoked about the tool and the direction that it's been been taking. There is now a wholesale manager and this is largely, or at least I think because of our conversations with Matt Hill and start nine. This was kind of the reason that the order of operations was to get a manager first and then they are building out the application. So right now the wholesale go app is super bare bones. And it sucks because it's so awesome. But it's just enough of a barrier that it's really hard for me to use the app a lot. I mostly only use wholesale on desktop more than anything else, specifically with iOS, it's like a huge pain in the butt because you lose your session as soon as it goes into the background because of how iOS manages background processes. And so I have to reconnect. So every single time I just have to punch the key in and hit it again. But if it's something that I'm using for a very extended amount of time, I'm just leaving it open and I'm just using it and there's no interruption. I'm just using it so it's still really valuable. But I also don't have like, it's bare bones. Like it just does its job. And I can't save like bookmarks, I can't save keys. I have a document, a note with all of my keys in them and what they go to for services or things that I'm trying to access. And so I just literally I copy and paste over into it. And that's definitely too much of a headache for the typical user as I know I have not gotten to play with it or see it yet. And if Super sue listens to this, I want to say that I thought we were friends.
[00:21:55] You know, I thought that you cared about our relationship and that you would let me see what, what the app looks like. But, you know, I feel like, I feel like we've become distant and if you could just, if you could just give me a call, if you could just text. I know he's building a lot on the app and I'm super stoked about it because I know that is coming first and then we will have something to announce with start nine. They're in. I think he said it was a private beta or something with a big upgrade that they have coming to start nine. So if you have a start nine node and you love the pair stuff and you use wholesale and you want to be able to connect to your services and you want an app that's really easy to use and fully fleshed out, these things are very, very soon. I know in all the separate conversations, everything is stair stepping forward and we are very close and there's just not that much more to add on top of wholesale in order to make it really, really awesome. Now, the wholesale manager that I mentioned, if you have wholesale installed, you can update it via the terminal and wholesale dash manager now is how you can create sessions. You can still create sessions or create a connection and deal with it the old way that you always would with just wholesale connect or wholesale live, and then whatever your port number is. However, with the wholesale, wholesale dash manager. And again, for those who don't know this, it's h o l e s a I l. When you're running wholesale and you start up a session, I would have to open up a separate terminal window. Like, I had like eight tabs, nine tabs open all the time, because it didn't take a whole lot to run another instance of wholesale and just establish a new connection. But you did have to run a new instance of wholesale and establish a new connection with every one of them. So I would need like eight or nine terminal tabs open all the time, and I just have it minimized. Well, now you can have a wholesale dash manager, and you can just create and name all of your, name both your session and list out all of the ones that are active and selectively close them, start, restart them, pause them, etcetera. So it's a much better setup. And for those of you who don't know, they also have a very simple file manager. So it's also a really great way to transfer files from device to device. And speaking on that, super sue, congrats by the way. Major, major congrats for they have a, the hole punch team has a tool called Hyper Beam. And I was trying to get, I was running into a problem and I couldn't get the other tool that I was really hoping that I could use for this working or get access to it because it's in kind of piecemeal stuff. But I was trying to figure out how to get in the middle of the day. I ran into the problem that I run into all the time. I ran out of hard drive space on my two terabytes of MACD because working with video like this, I did a video yesterday or earlier today, it was today, and after recording all of this crap for the project, it was like 13gb just for one thing. But I ran out of storage space on space on my Mac in the middle of a project and had to dump a ton of my project files and folders to my Mac. And so I got in touch with MAf and reached out to the para community room, and MaF actually recommended hyper beam, which is a one shot, just connect and dump all of these files from one device to another tool in terminal.
[00:25:55] And it was a little bit awkward because you had to tar CZ, you had to put it in a package and then hyper beam it to the other computer and there is no progress bar. So you're just like what's happening? And you're just waiting. I accept that. I would just open up the file system in Linux and I could just watch the files just pop pop pop in as they were all being downloaded. But I did this for 40 some odd gigabytes worth of data and I'm pretty impressed. I was watching my network activity and I was getting anywhere between five and up to 20 megabytes per second between the devices and I, I successfully did it while I was working on other stuff and this is a, like I said, it's a super bare bones, they didn't, it was just kind of a proof of concept it like look, look what we can do. And apparently super sue got a grant to actually turn it into a kind of fully fledged like beam of file from you to another device or to another person anywhere online app. So that's really cool. And I got to give a shout out to Super sue because that man delivers and they have built some really, really awesome stuff and I am so stoked about where wholesale is going and the other things that they are building specifically because of that. Now for a project that I have been working on that is related to and or entirely within the the pair stack ecosystem, I posted this in the pair community and I've been working with a couple of developers who have been great and we're making progress. But I am looking for additional developers and more people to get more eyes on the project. And this still is not public yet, but I think we're getting close and I'm getting less and less in love with the idea of building it in secret. Anyway, I would like to have more people looking at this and get more thoughts and get people excited about this project, so, but we're not going to do that. We still, I still think it makes the most sense to wait until we have an alpha in order to make this available to other people. But I am looking for people who can work in JavaScript who have worked specifically with pair runtime. That would be great, but pair runtime is brand new also, so I understand it. But if you are in a hole in the hole punch ecosystem, you've worked with Hypercore. Hypercore has been around for a long time, you know, this is just an extension of it, so that is a massive bonus. And Sarah path, in fact, I know I have not responded, I was talking to him and he reached out, but I know they just had a daughter so I'm sure they are busy anyway, but I am going to actually reach back out to him. But anybody else who is interested, please contact me. I would love to sit down and talk and see about where I hope to be taking this project to the next stage very quickly.
[00:29:10] It seems like we're close and I want to start preparing for when that happens and when we kind of open this up to other people to get feedback, to get people using it and see, you know, find out where it sucks miserably because it inevitably is going to. It's, you know, there's a long way from what we want to build that we have right now. I wanted to give a call out to everyone to reach out. If you have experience with these and you think you would be helpful to the project, or if you even if you just want to learn, you want to come check out the project. Like I said, it's not public. It won't be public yet, but we will need those people too. So let me know. Hit me up on Twitter at the guy Swan Noster. Links and details will all be in the show notes and of course on Keat as well. You can find me just ping me in one of the many, many rooms. But also, hole punch is hiring as well, which I forgot to mention. So if you were not aware of that or you didn't see that and you're a developer in the space who wants to work on this stuff and wants to dive into the pair stack and this new web that is being born, in my opinion. Don't forget that they are hiring and they are building like crazy tons of little projects. So definitely, definitely something to check out if this interests you. So that's the breakdown of recent updates and a number of different things that are coming for Keat, as well as wholesale and just the pair ecosystem in general. And it's also just, I wanted to take the time to reach out and have people who are interested in building on pear and also let them know that hole punch is hiring. And there's a lot of people with a lot of really interesting projects. There's a couple of pair projects rooms on keat, as well as, as well as just the general pair development room. But there's a game dev room, there is a pair babies room, and it's a bunch of people talking about a bunch of different ideas and then going through the details of how to implement a lot of these things. And pair runtime is specifically getting better very quickly. In fact, one of the things I was talking with Hope, the developer that I work with. He was telling me about something that two to three months ago, he was having to build, having to put a ton of code together in order to accomplish something about achieving a global state that was live and easily manageable within pair runtime. And we've basically just come back to that exact same problem now. And he was surprised he had not been keeping up with exactly all of the updates and things that are coming through. And he told me literally, that you can actually just do this entire thing that I thought I was going to have to do in this entirely different, complex way with essentially one line of code. So things are moving really fast and I think we're going to hit a place where a lot of stuff is starting to be released, that we're going to finally come to the surface. And I know a lot of people are building and a lot of people are looking for builders. So if you are a builder, reach out, start exploring keat and go to pears.com. there's a lot of different ways to get in touch with people.
[00:32:37] Start putting the feelers out there. Contact me if you're interested in building stuff, because I hope to have. I hope to have something really, really exciting to share in the not too distant future. So with that, we'll go ahead and close this one out and I will catch you on the next episode of the pair report. We got some short videos coming up in the next couple of days or in next week. We'll have a short video which will not be posted on this feed, but stay tuned. We've got some things changing on the background to make all the feeds right and clean some things up. I'll keep you updated. So stay tuned, stay subscribed and I will catch you in the next episode the pair report. Until then, everybody take it easy, guys.
[00:33:50] Channel.
